John: According to An Encyclopaedia of London the St. Martin Outwich burned down and was rebuilt in 1727, then "In 1874 the church was demolished" (p. 95).Could you recheck this information. Sincerely, Bruce -----Original Message----- From: John Carpenter <jrcrin001@home.com> To: CARPENTER-L@rootsweb.com <CARPENTER-L@rootsweb.com> Date: Thursday, July 15, 1999 9:11 AM Subject: Re: Chaundelers and Chandlers #3 >Dear Bruce, > >My father was in England several years ago and visited The CHURCH OF ST. >MARTIN, Ooutwich, Bishop Gate St., in London, England. On the floor was >1395 with Richard Carpenter's name. > >Per the booklet "THE CITY OF LONDON SCHOOL" - John Carpenter the >younger's will was made in his 70th year. This indicates his birth about >1371/1372. He had two older brothers (no sisters mentioned) which means >his parents could not have been born any earlier than 1350 (1372 -2 -2 = >1368 -18 = 1350). I have 1335 as a guesstimate using a wider range and >possible other children. John the elder born about 1360/1362 for >example. > >This leaves the "other" Richard, son of Robert, of Richard and Christina >Carpenter once again as a possibility. > >Let's keep brainstorming this! Maybe someone will come up with more >records or insight. > >By the way, How long did you spend in Japan teaching? I have a friend >who is thinking about teaching there. Can I give him your E-address? > >John R. Carpenter >La Mesa, CA >

Some Zimmerman Carpenter, at least, went on to NC. Audrey Annable Franklin Robin Carpenter wrote: > Toni Schlaefli: > Your query doesn't say whether you already have knowledge of > "Genealogical Notes on the Carpenter Family" (1907) by Seymour D. Carpenter. > This history is the most extensive review (that I know of) regarding the > Zimmerman Carpenters. If you haven't seen this book, I suggest you find > yourself a copy. > SDC Passages on pages 71 and 79 refer to a couple of James Carpenters, > and also Gabriel and Zachary in the same line. Page 208 begins a final > chapter "Gabriel Carpenter, In Memoriam" and reviews a Gabriel who was born > in PA Sep 11, 1801, moved with his family in 1852 from Fairfield Cty OH to > Cedar Rapids IA. He died in Cedar Rapids March 10, 1881. Services held in > the Grace Episcopal Church. (See if they have records!) > Although the specific persons cited by SDC may or may not be your actual > ancestors, it sounds (to me) like you'll probably find a connection > somewhere there. (The Zimmerman Carpenters aren't among my Carpenters at > all, and it's been a long time since I read the whole volume, so my memory > of details is unclear. But I'm pretty sure these Carpenters permeated much > of the midwest, including Iowa.) > If the SDC work is unknown or currrently unavailable to you, just say so > and I'll be happy to quote a few paragraphs for you in a later post. > Robin C.

To anyone interested, the book, Genealogy Notes on the Carpenter Family, is online on GenealogyLibrary.com if you are a member. Larry Wing

This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------733C3D63CBA13A1BB67A4FF4 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear Robin, Attached is the data on a Carpenter family that went to Luzerne county, PA. Your data does not seem to match, but maybe you can find something useful. John R. Carpenter La Mesa, CA Robin Carpenter wrote: > > I have a copy of an 1838 deed, from ABIGAIL CARPENTER of Monroe (Luzerne > Cty) PA, to Augustus O'SUTZ (or O'LUTZ), conveying a 50 acre lot in > Northmoreland PA. This Abigail is almost surely my g-g-g-grandmother, > recent widow of Jonathan, but I had not known she had moved to Monroe > (apparantly after Jonathan died in 1836). > Does anyone here have knowledge of Abigail C--or ANY Carpenters--in > Monroe PA around the 1830s-1840s? > Robin C. > P.S. One witness to the deed is Henry YOUNG. Any knowledge of Henry Young > in Luzerne/Wyoming area at mid-1800s would also be much appreciated. > Thanks --------------733C3D63CBA13A1BB67A4FF4 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; name="11792d.txt" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline; filename="11792d.txt" Descendants of Samuel CARPENTER-11792 First Generation 1. Samuel CARPENTER-11792 was born about 1800 in Goshen, Orange, NY and was christened in of Plains, Lucerne, PA. !Number 2293 in the Carpenter Memorial. Page 285 Family on page 472 (#701) Samuel married his cousin Nancy Gardner, daughter of Hannah. CENSUS: 1830 Census of Ekland Township, PA lists a Samuel Carpenter with the following information: 1 male 30-40, 1 female 20-30, 1 male 5-10, 2 males under 5. Samuel married (1-MRIN:4094) Nancy GARDINER-11793. Nancy was born about 1800 in NY. GARDINER or GARDNER as per the CM Samuel and Nancy had the following children: + 2 M i. Emery CARPENTER-14538 was born about 1825 and died after 1898. + 3 M ii. Benjamin Gardiner CARPENTER-11794 was born 2 Jul 1827 and died 13 Nov 1889. + 4 F iii. Kate CARPENTER-14539 was born about 1829. 5 F iv. Alice CARPENTER-14540 was born about 1833 in of Philadelphia, PA. Number 4472 in the Carpenter Memorial. Page 472. Alice married (1-MRIN:5181) PHILIPS-14541 about 1855 in PA. PHILIPS was born about 1833 in of Wilkesbarre, Luzerne, PA. Second Generation 2. Emery CARPENTER-14538 was born about 1825 in of Wilkes Barre, Luzerne, PA. He died after 1898 in Princeton, NJ. !Number 4469 in the Carpenter Memorial. Page 472 Family on page 649 (# 1160) He had the following children: 6 M i. Alexander CARPENTER-14546 was born about 1850 in Princeton, NJ. Number 6597 in the Carpenter Memorial. Page 649. 7 F ii. Jeanette CARPENTER-14547 was born about 1853 in Princeton, NJ. Number 6598 in the Carpenter Memorial. Page 649. 8 F iii. Daisy CARPENTER-14548 was born about 1856 in Princeton, NJ. Number 6599 in the Carpenter Memorial. Page 649. 3. Benjamin Gardiner CARPENTER-11794 was born 2 Jul 1827 in of Wilkes Barre, Luzerne, PA. He died 13 Nov 1889. !Number 4470 in the Carpenter Memorial. Page 472 Family on page 649 (# 1161) Benjamin married (1-MRIN:4095) Sarah Ann FELL-11795 on 1852. Sarah was born after 1827. Daughter of Jesse Fell. Went by Sallie? Benjamin and Sarah had the following children: + 9 M i. Walter Samuel CARPENTER-11796 was born 5 Apr 1853 and died 22 Nov 1931. 10 M ii. Charles CARPENTER-14549 was born about 1856 in of Wilkes Barre, PA. Number 6601 in the Carpenter Memorial. Page 649. 11 M iii. Jessie G. CARPENTER-14550 was born about 1859 in of Wilkes Barre, PA. Number 6602 in the Carpenter Memorial. Page 649. 12 M iv. Benjamin Harold CARPENTER-14551 was born about 1861 in of Wilkes Barre, PA. Number 6603 in the Carpenter Memorial. Page 649. 13 M v. Edward or Edmund Nelson CARPENTER-14552 was born 27 Jun 1865 in Wilkes Barre, PA. !Number 6604 in the Carpenter Memorial. Page 649. Name is Edward not Edmund per CM on page 851. A Congressman, whose name is listed as Edmund, not Edward. 4. Kate CARPENTER-14539 was born about 1829 in of Philadelphia, PA. Number 4471 in the Carpenter Memorial. Page 472. Kate married (1-MRIN:5182) ROBERTSON-14542 about 1850 in NY. ROBERTSON was born about 1829 in NJ. They had the following children: 14 M i. Fred C. ROBERTSON-14543 was born about 1851. 15 M ii. Albert C. ROBERTSON-14544 was born about 1854. 16 F iii. Mary ROBERTSON-14545 was born about 1857. She died in Princeton, NJ. Third Generation 9. Walter Samuel CARPENTER-11796 was born 5 Apr 1853 in of Wilkes Barre, Luzerne, PA. He died 22 Nov 1931. Number 6600 in the Carpenter Memorial. Page 649. SEE Burkes Landed Gentry, 1939. His son is in it. Walter married (1-MRIN:4096) Belle MORGAN-11797 on 5 Apr 1876. Belle was born after 1853 in of Wilkes Barre, Luzerne, PA. Daughter of Robert R. Morgan of Wilkes Barre. Walter and Belle had the following children: + 17 M i. Robert Ruliph Morgan CARPENTER-11798 was born 30 Jul 1877 and died 11 Jun 1949. 18 M ii. Benjamin Gardiner CARPENTER-11809 was born 28 Jan 1886 in of Delaware City, New Castle, DE. Benjamin married (1-MRIN:4101) Harriet PRICE-11813. Harriet was born after 1886. + 19 M iii. Walter Samuel CARPENTER-11810 was born 8 Jan 1888 and died 2 Feb 1976. 20 F iv. Madge CARPENTER-11811 was born about 1891. Madge married (1-MRIN:4100) Walter TATNALL Jr.-11812. Walter was born about 1891 in of Wilmington, DE. Son of Walter Tatnall of Wilmington, DE. Fourth Generation 17. Robert Ruliph Morgan CARPENTER-11798 was born 30 Jul 1877 in of Montchanin, DE. He died 11 Jun 1949 in Wilmington, New Castle, DE. !SEE Burkes Landed Gentry, 1939. ** The DuPont Carpenter Line.** Robert was Director and Vice President, E.I. du Pont de Nemours and Co., Director Gerard Trust Co., of Philadelphia, and of the Philadelphia, Baltimore, and Washington Railroad. Trustee Acandemy of Natural Science of Philadelphia, President, Homeopathic Hospital of Wilmington, DE. Educated: Hillman Academy, Wilkes Barre, PA and MA Institute of Technology (MIT). MISC: He bought the National League Philadelphia Phillies in 1933. Robert married (1-MRIN:4097) Margaretta DU PONT-11800 on 18 Dec 1906. Margaretta was born about 1880 in of Wilmington, DE. She died before 1980. Daughter of Lammot du Pont, of Wilmington, DE. Robert and Margaretta had the following children: 21 F i. Louisa d'Andelot CARPENTER-11803 was born 16 Oct 1907 in DE. + 22 F ii. Irene Du Pont CARPENTER-11804 was born 21 Jan 1911. 23 M iii. Robert Ruliph Morgan CARPENTER Jr.-11799 was born 31 Aug 1915 in of Montchanin, DE. He died before 1995. He was the 1943 President of the Philadelphia National League Baseball Club (Phillies) for many years. The training complex for the Phillies in Pinellas County, Florida, is called CARPENTER FIELD. Robert married (1-MRIN:4098) Mary Kaye PHELPS-11801 on 1938. Mary was born about 1915. 24 M iv. William Kemble Du Pont CARPENTER-11802 was born 27 May 1919 in DE. He died in FL. He retired to Florida where he was concidered the richest man there with 333 million. Unknown which date the dollar figure figured. 19. Walter Samuel CARPENTER-11810 was born 8 Jan 1888. He died 2 Feb 1976 in Wilmington, New Castle, DE. !Walter Samuel, Chairman, Finance Committeee, and Vice President of E.I. du Pont de Nemours & Co., Director, General Motors Corp. Educated: Cornell University. He headed his company during its transformation from a producer of expolsives to a diversified chemical firm. Walter married (1-MRIN:4102) Mary Louise WOOTEN-11814. Mary was born after 1888 in of Laurel, DE. Daughter of Isaac John Wooten of Laurel, DE. Walter and Mary had the following children: 25 M i. Walter Samuel CARPENTER Jr.-11815 was born 1 Nov 1915. 26 M ii. John Wooten CARPENTER-11816 was born 22 Aug 1918. 27 M iii. Edmund Nelson CARPENTER-11817 was born 27 Jan 1921. Fifth Generation 22. Irene Du Pont CARPENTER-11804 was born 21 Jan 1911 in DE. Irene married (1-MRIN:4099) William KITCHELL-11805 on 1930. William was born about 1910. They had the following children: 28 F i. Renee KITCHELL-11806 was born 6 Aug 1931. 29 F ii. Margaretta KITCHELL-11807 was born 4 Nov 1932. 30 F iii. Nancy Gardiner KITCHELL-11808 was born 15 Nov 1935. Index Name ID Generation CARPENTER, Alexander 6 3 CARPENTER, Alice 5 2 CARPENTER, Benjamin Gardiner 3 2 CARPENTER, Benjamin Gardiner 18 4 CARPENTER, Benjamin Harold 12 3 CARPENTER, Charles 10 3 CARPENTER, Daisy 8 3 CARPENTER, Edmund Nelson 27 5 CARPENTER, Edward or Edmund Nelson 13 3 CARPENTER, Emery 2 2 CARPENTER, Irene Du Pont 22 5 CARPENTER, Jeanette 7 3 CARPENTER, Jessie G. 11 3 CARPENTER, John Wooten 26 5 CARPENTER, Kate 4 2 CARPENTER, Louisa d'Andelot 21 5 CARPENTER, Madge 20 4 CARPENTER, Robert Ruliph Morgan 17 4 CARPENTER, Robert Ruliph Morgan Jr. 23 5 CARPENTER, Samuel 1 1 CARPENTER, Walter Samuel 9 3 CARPENTER, Walter Samuel 19 4 CARPENTER, Walter Samuel Jr. 25 5 CARPENTER, William Kemble Du Pont 24 5 DU PONT, Margaretta 17S 4 FELL, Sarah Ann 3S 2 GARDINER, Nancy 1S 1 KITCHELL, Margaretta 29 6 KITCHELL, Nancy Gardiner 30 6 KITCHELL, Renee 28 6 KITCHELL, William 22S 5 MORGAN, Belle 9S 3 PHELPS, Mary Kaye 23S 5 PHILIPS, 5S 2 PRICE, Harriet 18S 4 ROBERTSON, 4S 2 ROBERTSON, Albert C. 15 3 ROBERTSON, Fred C. 14 3 ROBERTSON, Mary 16 3 TATNALL, Walter Jr. 20S 4 WOOTEN, Mary Louise 19S 4 --------------733C3D63CBA13A1BB67A4FF4--

For Gloria C: I do not find any "John Zimmerman" or any Kerker in the index. For PAt: I do not find any John C. Carpenter in the index. Remember, however, that inthe very early years (after immigration) the Carpenter and Zimmerman names were intermittantly switched-around. I cannot say where you can find the Seymour Carpentr book. I know some are around, becuae I have my copy (my brother found it in a yard sale) and I since saw another copy at a local used book sale (should have bought the extra, I guess). I have bought various old genealogical books at Tuttle Antiquarian Bookstore in Rutland VT. They have a web page. There are many others. Try bibliofind.com on the internet (and otehr similar services). If you don't have an antiquarian bookstore you rely on, get one. Get on their mailing and catalog list. The specific reference you're seeking here is: Generalogical Notes on the Carpenter Fam,ily Including the Autobiography and Personal Reminiscences of Dr. Deymour D. Carpenter Edited by Edwin Sawyer Walker A.M. Springfield IL Illinois State Journal Co,Printers MCMVII Copyright 1907, George N. Kreider, M.D. The back of the title page says that 500 copies were printed. My copy is unnumbered, however, so maybe there was an overrun. Good luck. RLC

Dear Bruce, It still does not rule out the secondary meaning used in the 1700's and 1800's as defined by the writers of that time. John R. Carpenter La Mesa, CA Bruce E. Carpenter wrote: > > The folowing quote from An Encyclopedia of London will put to rest the > meaning of 'chaundeler'. Happily the information comes from Town Clerk John > Carpenter himself. > > "The name given (chaundelers) to these early merchants of grease (for that > is what they were) is "unctuarii." When cataloguing the entry in the Liber > Albus a little over a century later, John Carpenter, Town Clerk, had no > hesitation in rendering "unctuarius" by "candelarius" or "chandler". > > Yours, > Bruce E. Carpenter

Dear Bruce, My father was in England several years ago and visited The CHURCH OF ST. MARTIN, Ooutwich, Bishop Gate St., in London, England. On the floor was 1395 with Richard Carpenter's name. Per the booklet "THE CITY OF LONDON SCHOOL" - John Carpenter the younger's will was made in his 70th year. This indicates his birth about 1371/1372. He had two older brothers (no sisters mentioned) which means his parents could not have been born any earlier than 1350 (1372 -2 -2 = 1368 -18 = 1350). I have 1335 as a guesstimate using a wider range and possible other children. John the elder born about 1360/1362 for example. This leaves the "other" Richard, son of Robert, of Richard and Christina Carpenter once again as a possibility. Let's keep brainstorming this! Maybe someone will come up with more records or insight. By the way, How long did you spend in Japan teaching? I have a friend who is thinking about teaching there. Can I give him your E-address? John R. Carpenter La Mesa, CA Bruce E. Carpenter wrote: > > John: > Happy to hear from you as always. The death date of > 1395 for Richard must surely be a modern estimate. Town Clerk John's will of > 1441 states that his parents are dead and buried in Outwich. This document > in no way > precludes Richard Carpenter being alive in 1412, the date of my discovered > document.Likewise the birth date of Richard for 1335 is aalso a modern > estimate, an estimate > that probably is much too early. Again, Town Clerk John's > birth and death dates are entirely modern conjectures. If I were to estimate > a daeth date for Richard, something close to 1420 would be reasonable. > Sincerely, > Bruce > Clinton, WA > -----Original Message----- > From: John Carpenter <jrcrin001@home.com> > To: CARPENTER-L@rootsweb.com <CARPENTER-L@rootsweb.com> > Date: Wednesday, July 14, 1999 10:39 AM > Subject: Re: Chaundelers and Chandlers #2 > > >Dear Bruce, > > > >Continuing from the end of the last E-message ... > > > >If Richard Carpenter -86 (who married Christina) died in 1395, who was > >the Richard Carpenter noted in the November 1412 record? > > > >In searching my records I have ... > > > > > > +---¦Richard CARPENTER-86 > >Robert CARPENTER-14719 ¦ ¦Abt 1335 > >Abt 1368 ----------¦ ¦of London,Middlesex,England > >of London,Middlesex,England ¦ MRIN:18 > > --SPOUSE-- MRIN:5247 +---¦Christina-87 > > ¦Abt 1335/1337 > > ¦of London,Middlesex,England > > --CHILDREN-- > >1. Alexander CARPENTER-23395 Abt 1389 > >2. Joan CARPENTER-14721 Abt 1390 > >3. Richard CARPENTER-4675 1392 > >4. Katherine CARPENTER-14722 Abt 1395 > >5. Henry CARPENTER-16314 Abt 1395 > > > >The notes for the Richard - 4675 above list: > >A Goldsmith by trade. In 1410, City of London Records indicate > >a Richard Carpenter and Johannes Norman, goldsmiths (Chaundelers?) > >sponsoring an orphan. Apparently this of one of many encouraged by this > >Robber's Grand-Uncle John Carpenter, the younger, the noted town clerk > >of London. > >SEE: "THE CITY OF LONDON SCHOOL" By A. E. Douglas-Smith, 2nd Edition, > >1965, Oxford. The City of London School for the Poor was endowed by > >this Richard's uncle, named John or John the younger. On page 2 of the > >above, it lists that "Richard (gfather) was a chandler living in > >Billiter Lane in 1381. > >It also mentions on page 3, that a son named Robert Carpenter, "of whom > >nothing is known except that he had a son (named) Richard and two > >daughters (named) Joan and Katherine." This is known by John the > >younger's will. Other children may have been buried in the graveyard of > >the Church of St. Martin. > >end notes. > > > >This Richard (noted above) was born in 1392 and would have been about > >age 22 in November of 1412. Currently, until more data comes in, this > >was probably the Richard "of Fleetstreet" in 1412. > > > >While I am uncomfortable with this, it is logical. In 1410 this Richard > >Carpenter was known as a "goldsmith." But then in 1412 he was known as > >"of Fleetstreet." Could he have been a "gold chandler" or a broker for > >goldsmiths? > > > >What do you think? > > > >John R. Carpenter > >La Mesa, CA > >

Toni Schlaefli: Your query doesn't say whether you already have knowledge of "Genealogical Notes on the Carpenter Family" (1907) by Seymour D. Carpenter. This history is the most extensive review (that I know of) regarding the Zimmerman Carpenters. If you haven't seen this book, I suggest you find yourself a copy. SDC Passages on pages 71 and 79 refer to a couple of James Carpenters, and also Gabriel and Zachary in the same line. Page 208 begins a final chapter "Gabriel Carpenter, In Memoriam" and reviews a Gabriel who was born in PA Sep 11, 1801, moved with his family in 1852 from Fairfield Cty OH to Cedar Rapids IA. He died in Cedar Rapids March 10, 1881. Services held in the Grace Episcopal Church. (See if they have records!) Although the specific persons cited by SDC may or may not be your actual ancestors, it sounds (to me) like you'll probably find a connection somewhere there. (The Zimmerman Carpenters aren't among my Carpenters at all, and it's been a long time since I read the whole volume, so my memory of details is unclear. But I'm pretty sure these Carpenters permeated much of the midwest, including Iowa.) If the SDC work is unknown or currrently unavailable to you, just say so and I'll be happy to quote a few paragraphs for you in a later post. Robin C.

Patti, I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but your John R. Carpenter was not married to Eleanor Rosannah McChesney. She was married to John Ryburn Carpenter, born 2 Nov 1858 in Washington County Virginia. His Father was James Carpenter and his Mother was Margaret Ann Ryburn. His Grandfather was William Carpenter who moved to Wash. Co., VA from Louisa Co. VA sometime after 1824. I have John & Ella's marriage record and correspond with John's granddaughter who is 81 and remembers her grandparents. We have pictures of them also. I descend from John's Brother William Patrick Carpenter. I hope you find your family Betty

I am seeking info on my G-G-G-Grandfather James S.(possible Sumner) Carpenter b- 28 Nov 1829 in Ohio. Married 6 Aug 1854 in Cedar Rapids, Linn County, Iowa to Mary Elizabeth Klumph d/o Thomas S. Klumph & Eliza Mary Eby Klumph. Family stories say James, along with brothers Gabriel B. Carpenter, Zack Carpenter (and also Aunt Lisle)left Iowa in the early 1870's to move to Kansas. The families live in Kansas and Southern Nebraska from then on. The family stories say that our Carpenters were Dutch and arrived in Pennsylvania with the name of Zimmerman, later changing it to the English Carpenter. The lived in Pennsylvania for "quite a span of years" before moving to the Cedar Rapids, Iowa area. Supposedly James S. Carpenter's parents were also born in Ohio. Any info you may have on James or his family would be greatly appreciated. I have been at a stand still with this family forever!!! Thanks, Toni Schlaefli

I am seeking information about MARY CARPENTER or W.H. CARPENTER of Clinton Twp, Wyoming Cty PA, in the late 1890s. Mary Carpenter died September 30 1893, and W.H.(could be W.N.) Carpenter and Leharlis(?) Deitrich were appointed administrators of her estate 7/10/1894. Any knowledge of these Carpenters, or other Carpenters in Clinton PA, would be much appreciated. Robin C.

I have a copy of an 1838 deed, from ABIGAIL CARPENTER of Monroe (Luzerne Cty) PA, to Augustus O'SUTZ (or O'LUTZ), conveying a 50 acre lot in Northmoreland PA. This Abigail is almost surely my g-g-g-grandmother, recent widow of Jonathan, but I had not known she had moved to Monroe (apparantly after Jonathan died in 1836). Does anyone here have knowledge of Abigail C--or ANY Carpenters--in Monroe PA around the 1830s-1840s? Robin C. P.S. One witness to the deed is Henry YOUNG. Any knowledge of Henry Young in Luzerne/Wyoming area at mid-1800s would also be much appreciated. Thanks

Luzerne County (PA) Orphans Court records for the estate of JONATHAN CARPENTER (of Northmoreland) in 1836 appoint Robert Caton and HORTON W. CARPENTER as Administrators. I do not know of Horton, but suspect he may be one of Jonathan's sons, or maybe a nephew. (Jonathan being my g-g-g-grandfather.) Does anyone know of any other references to Horton Carpenter? Robin C.

Hi All: First time posting to list and I need help! I have had absolutely no luck whatsoever in my CARPENTER research. Hopefully, it will look familiar to someone out there. This is all I have on my Carpenter line: John CARPENTER b. ca 1810 Maryland? d. ca 1865. Mar. Emeline ________ ca 1831. She was born ca 1817 Children: Lewanda (sp.?) b. ca 1832 Mary J. b. ca 1835 Sarah S. b. ca 1837 John R. Carpenter b. ca 1839 (believe he mar. Eleanor Rosanna McChesney) Samuel E. b. ca 1841 Emeline b. ca 1842 d. 16 Mar 1901; mar. Robert "Alexander" Kane Benjamin F. b. ca 1846 They appear in the 1840 Census in Charles Co., Maryland and the 1850 Census in Washington, DC. His unadministered estate was committed to the Sheriff in 1866 in Fairfax Co., VA . Hopefully someone out there will know more. I would greatly appreciate any assistance. Thank you....... Patti

John: in Town Clerk John's 1441 will he refers to his brother Robert's son Richard thusly, "Also I give and bequelth to my kinsman Richard, son of my brother Robert,for the increase of his estate when he shall arrive at full age and mature discretion...." Thus those 1390s dates for Roberts children are impossible. Sincerely, Bruce E. Carpenter -----Original Message----- From: John Carpenter <jrcrin001@home.com> To: Bruce E. Carpenter <carp@whidbey.com> Cc: CARPENTER-L@rootsweb.com <CARPENTER-L@rootsweb.com>; John L. Carpenter <familysearcher@mailcity.com>; Richard L. Carpenter <adoptahighway1@home.com>; Terry Lee Carpenter <diluvius@flash.net> Date: Wednesday, July 14, 1999 10:38 AM Subject: Re: Chaundelers and Chandlers #2 >Dear Bruce, > >Continuing from the end of the last E-message ... > >If Richard Carpenter -86 (who married Christina) died in 1395, who was >the Richard Carpenter noted in the November 1412 record? > >In searching my records I have ... > > > +---¦Richard CARPENTER-86 >Robert CARPENTER-14719 ¦ ¦Abt 1335 >Abt 1368 ----------¦ ¦of London,Middlesex,England >of London,Middlesex,England ¦ MRIN:18 > --SPOUSE-- MRIN:5247 +---¦Christina-87 > ¦Abt 1335/1337 > ¦of London,Middlesex,England > --CHILDREN-- >1. Alexander CARPENTER-23395 Abt 1389 >2. Joan CARPENTER-14721 Abt 1390 >3. Richard CARPENTER-4675 1392 >4. Katherine CARPENTER-14722 Abt 1395 >5. Henry CARPENTER-16314 Abt 1395 > >The notes for the Richard - 4675 above list: >A Goldsmith by trade. In 1410, City of London Records indicate >a Richard Carpenter and Johannes Norman, goldsmiths (Chaundelers?) >sponsoring an orphan. Apparently this of one of many encouraged by this >Robber's Grand-Uncle John Carpenter, the younger, the noted town clerk >of London. >SEE: "THE CITY OF LONDON SCHOOL" By A. E. Douglas-Smith, 2nd Edition, >1965, Oxford. The City of London School for the Poor was endowed by >this Richard's uncle, named John or John the younger. On page 2 of the >above, it lists that "Richard (gfather) was a chandler living in >Billiter Lane in 1381. >It also mentions on page 3, that a son named Robert Carpenter, "of whom >nothing is known except that he had a son (named) Richard and two >daughters (named) Joan and Katherine." This is known by John the >younger's will. Other children may have been buried in the graveyard of >the Church of St. Martin. >end notes. > >This Richard (noted above) was born in 1392 and would have been about >age 22 in November of 1412. Currently, until more data comes in, this >was probably the Richard "of Fleetstreet" in 1412. > >While I am uncomfortable with this, it is logical. In 1410 this Richard >Carpenter was known as a "goldsmith." But then in 1412 he was known as >"of Fleetstreet." Could he have been a "gold chandler" or a broker for >goldsmiths? > >What do you think? > >John R. Carpenter >La Mesa, CA

The folowing quote from An Encyclopedia of London will put to rest the meaning of 'chaundeler'. Happily the information comes from Town Clerk John Carpenter himself. "The name given (chaundelers) to these early merchants of grease (for that is what they were) is "unctuarii." When cataloguing the entry in the Liber Albus a little over a century later, John Carpenter, Town Clerk, had no hesitation in rendering "unctuarius" by "candelarius" or "chandler". Yours, Bruce E. Carpenter

Dear Claudia, Please do! John R. Carpenter La Mesa, CA USA William Cridland wrote: > > Dear John, > > Please see my message to Bruce...I'd like to incorporate your > information into my own Carpenter chart. Is this O.K. > with you? > > Claudia Cridland

Dear Bruce, Continuing from the end of the last E-message ... If Richard Carpenter -86 (who married Christina) died in 1395, who was the Richard Carpenter noted in the November 1412 record? In searching my records I have ... +---¦Richard CARPENTER-86 Robert CARPENTER-14719 ¦ ¦Abt 1335 Abt 1368 ----------¦ ¦of London,Middlesex,England of London,Middlesex,England ¦ MRIN:18 --SPOUSE-- MRIN:5247 +---¦Christina-87 ¦Abt 1335/1337 ¦of London,Middlesex,England --CHILDREN-- 1. Alexander CARPENTER-23395 Abt 1389 2. Joan CARPENTER-14721 Abt 1390 3. Richard CARPENTER-4675 1392 4. Katherine CARPENTER-14722 Abt 1395 5. Henry CARPENTER-16314 Abt 1395 The notes for the Richard - 4675 above list: A Goldsmith by trade. In 1410, City of London Records indicate a Richard Carpenter and Johannes Norman, goldsmiths (Chaundelers?) sponsoring an orphan. Apparently this of one of many encouraged by this Robber's Grand-Uncle John Carpenter, the younger, the noted town clerk of London. SEE: "THE CITY OF LONDON SCHOOL" By A. E. Douglas-Smith, 2nd Edition, 1965, Oxford. The City of London School for the Poor was endowed by this Richard's uncle, named John or John the younger. On page 2 of the above, it lists that "Richard (gfather) was a chandler living in Billiter Lane in 1381. It also mentions on page 3, that a son named Robert Carpenter, "of whom nothing is known except that he had a son (named) Richard and two daughters (named) Joan and Katherine." This is known by John the younger's will. Other children may have been buried in the graveyard of the Church of St. Martin. end notes. This Richard (noted above) was born in 1392 and would have been about age 22 in November of 1412. Currently, until more data comes in, this was probably the Richard "of Fleetstreet" in 1412. While I am uncomfortable with this, it is logical. In 1410 this Richard Carpenter was known as a "goldsmith." But then in 1412 he was known as "of Fleetstreet." Could he have been a "gold chandler" or a broker for goldsmiths? What do you think? John R. Carpenter La Mesa, CA

Dear Bruce, When I compile data, I sometimes don't check definitions. You are right that chaundler does not mean goldsmith. This was an error on my part. Having discussions and questions posed helps put the puzzle together. Per Webster's New Universal UNABRIDGED Dictionary (based on the Random House Dictionary of the English language 1996 by Barnes & Noble); There are three definitions for the word Chandler (page 344) or Chaundelier ... The most common TODAY; "1) a person who makes or sells candles and sometimes other items of tallow or wax, as soap." (I.E. related to candles and their holders) A common definition used in the early 1700's and into the early 1800s; "2) a dealer or trader in supplies, provisions, etc. of a specialized type: a ship chandler." The more obscure definition; "3) a retailer of provisions, groceries, etc." Word Root history "[1275-1325; ME chandeler candlestick, maker or seller of candles < AF, OF chandelier, lit., some one or something connected with candles, equiv. to chandelle CANDLE + -ier -IER2]" Since earlier works used the term in the definition of their times and local and we should look at the sources of data. Examples: "Bunise's various 19th century works; "Life of Lord George Carpenter" printed 1736; Play fair's Family Antiquities." Logically, since the sources with in the 1700's into the 1800's we should use the definition used AT THAT TIME AND LOCAL. The definition of number two above would fit. "2) a dealer or trader in supplies, provisions, etc. of a specialized type: a ship chandler." Since Richard Carpenter was close to power because of wealth and had access (in the mid to late 1300s) in someway (due to nobility for example) to the King's Court, it is reasonable to assume that he was a trader (or broker in today's terms) in supplies or provisions. Fleet Street today in central London, England is the location of many newspaper offices. In the 1700's it was an area of Brokerages, as it had been for several hundred years. A Broker (from 1350-1400 ME broco(u)r)) in the 1700's was a middleman dealing with high end merchandise such as gold. (I can see how the relationship was formed between Chaundler and gold) Fleet Street in 1375-1425 derives its name from the ME Flete Strete, after a nearby stream. Thus in your last E-message where you quoted "the Close Rolls for Henry lV in 1412. "Memorandum of a mainprise body for body, made in chancery in November this year by John Bulloke `skynner', John Ledys `cordwaner', both of London, Richard Carpenter of `Fleetsreet' ..." Apparently by 1412 "of Fleetstreet" meant he represented someone or some group (like himself or some brokers). Since Fleet Street was known as a brokerage area from the late 1300's to the early 1900's, this makes sense. What is even more amazing is that the Richard Carpenter (who married Christina) in question died in 1395 and was buried in St.Martin Church,Outwich,London,England. None of Richard Carpenters known children is named Richard. His oldest son, John the elder inherited his father's wealth (1395) and later (in 1441) his younger brother's wealth (he was John the younger - The Noted Town Clerk of London). Is this a mystery or did John the elder assume his father's name when he assumed the business? ANOTHER QUESTION! Keep up the good work and research! Your Truly, John R. Carpenter La Mesa, CA USA Bruce E. Carpenter wrote: > > According to An Encyclopedia of London, London, 1970, > chaundelers and chandlers were the same and engaged in large part in candle > manufacture. They were organized into a guild and made their wares around > 1400 in Bishopsgate in London (an interesting fact in itself). > There is no connection with gold. The goldsmiths were an entirely different > trade with their own guild. > Sincerely, > Bruce E. Carpenter

Dear John, Please see my message to Bruce...I'd like to incorporate your information into my own Carpenter chart. Is this O.K. with you? Claudia Cridland