I am really enjoying your posts on your research on the Carpenters. I am relatively new at this genealogy stuff - but old enough to not be afraid to ask a question - lest I look stupid. Should we out here in Carpenter land be printing these e-mails off for the purpose of trying to figure this all out ourselves - or at some point, will one or more of you put the correct history in a neat little package for the rest of us to consume and place in our own files. I applaud what you are doing - I also think you are enjoying yourselves - and I hope Carpenters everywhere appreciate your efforts. from Penny (who just found out she fits into the Wm. of RI line)
Dear Bruce, You're Welcome. I concur that there was at least two family groups around London (probably with a few cousins from France) and at least one settled in Gloucester. Now regarding that material in France and in the "netherlands" to the north that you mentioned ... I have been making some inroads by contacting various researchers in France. Slowly bits and pieces come in. Later when more data come in, it changes the understanding abit. Thus it causes the organzation and ancestry possibly to change. Attached is the French Carpentier line (of about 20 generations), that I have put together (not all sources listed), starting with; Pierre Le CARPENTIER b. abt 1300 in de Grand Pont,Du Nord,France. I have also worked out the Melun line for some 22 generations after the time of William "the carpenter" De Melun using various books and records. One of the most helpful was ... !BOOK: "Europaische Stammtafeln, Stammtafeln zur Geschichte der Europaischen Staaten - Neue Folge - Herausgegeben von detlev Schwennicke - Band VII - Familien des alten Lothharingien II by Verlag Von J. A. Stargardt 1979 in Marburg, Germany. Book is in german. (European Royal Families - Band VII - Families of the old Lothharingien) The book has extensive Melun family lines but very few Carpenter/Carpentier lines. For example on Melun; Tafel 55. Les Melun I. "Adam Vicomte de Melun 1205/1254 (married mark) I NN (not known), (married mark) II Alice de Hayde, z Espernay-En-Normandie." That was for: Adam II DE MELUN CdM-20030 Abt 1205 Melun,Seine-et-Marne,IDF,France --SPOUSE-- MRIN:11131 Alice DE HAYDE-30825 Abt 1205 Espernay,IN,Normandy,France Books that refer to earlier Carpenters like; !BOOK: Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire - by Gibbons vol. 4. "Earl of Melun slaughtered his opponents with a large axe, thus earning himself the nickname of "The Carpenter." !BOOK: THE NORMANS by R. Allen Brown 1984. St. Martin's Press, NY. ISBN: 0-312-57776-1 940.17 Brown. Page 130 and 131: At the Seige of Antioch, Syria about Feburary 1098 - "Nevertheless, as the seige wore interminably on and conditions worsened, and as the expectation of another relieving army under the powerful Kerbogha, 'atabeg' of Mosul, increased, morale began to crack in certain quarters and divisions to appear amongst the Christian leaders. There were desertions, real and suspected, both before and after the battle of the Lake of Antioch. Amongst them were Peter the Hermit (of all people) and William 'the Carpenter' (so called - he was a knight and Lord of Melun) who slipped away in January and were ignominiously caught and brought back by Tancred, Bohemond's nephew. The "Gesta Francorum" gives us a military scene, timeless across the ages, as the wretched William stood in Bohemond'd tent at first light, to have strip after strip torn off him by his commanding officer - 'You wretched disgrace to the whole Frankish army -- you dishonourable blot on all the people of Gaul! You most loathsome of all men whom the earth has to bear . . .' etc.54" 54 refers to a note on page 185: "54 Gesta Francorum, p. 33. William had evidently deserted once before, on an expedition against the Moors in Spain, an incident of which he was now forcefully reminded by the outraged Bohemond." Books like the above, refer to other books (like the "Gesta Francorum") and other records which help here and there. You yourself have helped with your finding on an old French encyclopedia that added a piece here and there. By putting these "references" together in one compiled work, The Carpenter CD Project," I hope to spark further research and questioning about the early part of the Carpenter Family. As "our" fencing has done. ;) Best Regards! John R. Carpenter La Mesa, CA Bruce E. Carpenter wrote: > > John: > Thanks for your note. I certainly wouldn't discount a 1368 for Robert, even > with unmarried daughters in 1441. For Thomas, I think a Gloustershire > connection discounts him. My impression of the genealogical situation for > this period was that perhaps two Carpenter family groups existed in and > around London at this time. One group was very wealthy, well educated etc. > Another group was associated with trades. In other words there was a blue > collar Carpenter group and another white collar group. The two groups might > very well have been related. Still the two were very different, hence the > long standing > confusion over Richard Carpenter, that the tradesman Richard Carpenter was > Town Clerk's father. This always seemed to me unlikely and my own inadequate > research was an attempt to at least cast doubt on it. I think I succeeded. > Another matter that troubles me greatly is that there certainly exists a > great deal of material > on this family in French and in French/Belgian libraries. > If this material is not researched than any attempt at a history of this > family must be a failure, thus a wise choice for you is to begin your > genealogy of the family > around 1300, otherwise in a decade your efforts might appear completely > inadequate. > > Sincerely, > Bruce E. Carpenter > -----Original Message----- > From: John Carpenter <jrcrin001@home.com> > To: CARPENTER-L@rootsweb.com <CARPENTER-L@rootsweb.com> > Date: Tuesday, July 20, 1999 9:35 PM > Subject: Re: Town Clerk's Brother Robert > > >Dear Bruce, > > > >If in 1407, Robert is mentioned in "legal" papers, this means he should > >have been at least 21. (1407-21= 1376) This means he should have been > >born before 1376. The 1368 date other researchers have come up with is > >still in the ballpark. > > > >Also, don't forget: > >In 1422 a Robert Carpenter was deputed by the Brewers' Company to go > >with the Mayor to Gravesend and attend to the removal of weirs in the > >Thames. > > > >Regarding Thomas Carpenter: > > > >Thomas CARPENTER-44820 > >Abt 1355 > >of,Lydney,Gloucester,England > > --SPOUSE-- MRIN:15883 > > > > --CHILDREN-- > > 1-Henry CARPENTER-44821 > > 2-Richard CARPENTER-44822 > > 3William CARPENTER-44823 > > > >This Thomas was involved in ships and shipping. Bristol was the main > >ship building area in England at this time. He may have been the Thomas > >referred to in the 1407 Close Rolls you found. > > > >Thomas' ancestry is abit in question. > > > > Godefroy CARPENTIER Count de Avesnes-15424 > > B: Apr 1218 Selles Cambrai,Du Nord, France > > Jehan Le CARPENTIER b. abt 1250 Du Nord, France > > Rob. CARPENTIER b. abt 1275 Du Nord, France > > Robert CARPENTER b. 1303 Gloucester, England > > CARPENTER (name not ledgible) b. abt 1323 Gloucester > > Thomas CARPENTER b. abt 1355 Gloucestshire, > >England > >Keep digging up these jewels! We might pester you, but we love what you > >dig up! > > > >John R. Carpenter > >La Mesa, CA > > > >Bruce E. Carpenter wrote: > >> > >> The identity of Robert Carpenter, the brother of Town Clerk John, might > well > >> be revealed in the following legal documents. The nature of the cases is > >> not clear. However, we can safely assume they are property related, > families > >> with means trying to increase their holdings and influence. Interesting > is > >> the designation of clerk for Robert Carpenter. Those of us who have > read > >> Chaucer will remember the Clerks Tale. Clerks in the Middle Ages were > very > >> well known people indeed. The term clerk would be better rendered as > lawyer > >> , a clerk being half accountant, half lawyer in a society where > illiteracy > >> was common. Powerful interests were in real need of educated individuals > who > >> would take care of business. Clerks were educated at universities like > >> Oxford and other institutions. We can assume that anyone who was a clerk > >> came from a family of means, a family that could support a son through > his > >> course of education, for a career of clerkship for some powerful economic > >> organization, or family like an aristocratic one. The place in the > >> dispositions is Kyngeston upon Thames (modern spelling is Kingston on > >> Thames). In the same town is a Thomas Carpenter, relation unspecified. > >> Thomas has no specified trade connection, which is very interesting. The > >> proximity to the Thames is also suggestive that Robert and Thomas were > >> somehow connected to ships and trade. The town is also connected to the > >> crown. > >> > >> To the sherrif of Surrey.Like writ, mutatis mutandis, by mainprise of > >> Thomas Grenewort, Robert Carpenter clerk, both of Kyngeston upon Thames, > >> John Stokes of Someset, and William Rason of Kyngeston upon Thames, in > favor > >> of Robert Rugge wever and Agnes his wife. (Close Rolls, 1407, June > 2nd) > >> > >> To the sherrif of Surrey.Like writ. Mutantis mutandis, by mainprise of > John > >> Smart, Thomas Richard cordwaner, Thomas Glover and Thomas Avery > cordwaner > >> of Middlesex in favor of Thomas Carpenter of Kyngeston upon Thames, > Joan > >> his wife, Nicholas Fisshere of Kyngeston on Thames and Agnes his wife at > >> suit of John Prynce shoutman and alice his wife. (August 8th) > >
For Beth Thurman I have three John C. Carpenter's in my database. 1. John C. had sons John C. Jr born 12-1851 and Peter C. 2. John C. Jr married Margaret Minyard 3. John Calvin born 1796 son of Templeton and Hannah Newton Carpenter died in TX Respond direct to j2acoleman@aol.com if you want to trade info. Ann Coleman
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>Date: Sun, 18 Jul 1999 22:23:58 EDT >From: Ladyh19777@aol.com For PAt: I do not find any John C. Carpenter in the index >> >I would like to trade info on your John C. Carpenter, please contact me at >Ladyh19777@aol.com >Thanks! >Alinda Not too long ago I sent some information on Drew Co.,AR, John C. CArpenters. there were two mentioned in the History of Ashley Co.,AR. Both came from MS, and one was from Carrol co.,MS. Would you give some dates and places for your John C. Carpenters? BETH Thurman
Dear Frank, I have an Elsie Carpenter married to a Charles Fisk on the right marriage date. She was born in Cumberland as was her father. INDIVIDUAL DATA RIN:47660 - ----------------------------------------------------- Name:Elsie CARPENTER Sex:M ID No: Birth:Abt 1795 Place:Cumberland,Providence,RI Chr: Place: Marr:31 Dec 1811 Spouse:Charles FISK-47661 Marr: Spouse: Marr: Spouse: Death: Place: Burial: Place: Father:Joseph CARPENTER-35562 Mother:Rebecca or Rhoda R MILLER-35563 She was part of the following family; FAMILY NUMBER:12764 - ------------------------------------------------ Husband:Joseph CARPENTER-35562 Br/Ch:16 Jan 1763 Wife:Rebecca or Rhoda (Roby) MILLER-35563 Br/Ch:Abt 1763 - ---------------------------------------------------- CHILD BR/CH ----- ----- 1. Peter CARPENTER-35564 Abt 1790 2. Sally CARPENTER-47658 Abt 1785 3. Elsie CARPENTER-47660 Abt 1795 4. Anna CARPENTER-47662 9 May 1800 5. Ezra CARPENTER-47664 2 Apr 1802 6. Eliza CARPENTER-47666 17 Mar 1805 7. Roba CARPENTER-47668 Abt 1792 8. William CARPENTER-47670 Abt 1790 9. Squire CARPENTER-47671 Abt 1887 Her father's data: INDIVIDUAL DATA RIN:35562 - ------------------------------------------------------ Name:Joseph CARPENTER Sex:M ID No: Birth:16 Jan 1763 Place:Cumberland,Providence,RI Chr: Place: Marr: 5 Aug 1784 Spouse:Rebecca or Rhoda (Roby) MILLER-35563 Marr: Spouse: Marr: Spouse: Death: 8 Feb 1814/1815 Place:Cumberland,Providence,RI Burial:15 Feb 1814/1815 Place:Cumberland,Providence,RI Father:Asa B. CARPENTER-7327 Mother:Abigail FOLLETT-7328 Notes ------------------------------------------------------ Number 1377 in the Carpenter Memorial on page 201. Family on page 335 (# 446). A farmer. He married Rebecca or Rhoda Miller. She went by "Roby" which is on her gravestone. CHILDREN: Children birth order uncertain. end If you need more data on this line, please let me know. I would be happy to exchange data. John R. Carpenter La Mesa, CA Franklin Fiske wrote: > > Looking for info on; Elsa [Eley, Alice] CARPENTER, born in Sweden Or > Scotland, she was born 1793, Living in the Cumberland area of > R.I. Married to Charles Fiske on Dec. 31 1811. Can anyone help. > Frank in Novie ffiske@north.nsis.com
Dear Bruce, If in 1407, Robert is mentioned in "legal" papers, this means he should have been at least 21. (1407-21= 1376) This means he should have been born before 1376. The 1368 date other researchers have come up with is still in the ballpark. Also, don't forget: In 1422 a Robert Carpenter was deputed by the Brewers' Company to go with the Mayor to Gravesend and attend to the removal of weirs in the Thames. Regarding Thomas Carpenter: Thomas CARPENTER-44820 Abt 1355 of,Lydney,Gloucester,England --SPOUSE-- MRIN:15883 --CHILDREN-- 1-Henry CARPENTER-44821 2-Richard CARPENTER-44822 3William CARPENTER-44823 This Thomas was involved in ships and shipping. Bristol was the main ship building area in England at this time. He may have been the Thomas referred to in the 1407 Close Rolls you found. Thomas' ancestry is abit in question. Godefroy CARPENTIER Count de Avesnes-15424 B: Apr 1218 Selles Cambrai,Du Nord, France Jehan Le CARPENTIER b. abt 1250 Du Nord, France Rob. CARPENTIER b. abt 1275 Du Nord, France Robert CARPENTER b. 1303 Gloucester, England CARPENTER (name not ledgible) b. abt 1323 Gloucester Thomas CARPENTER b. abt 1355 Gloucestshire, England Keep digging up these jewels! We might pester you, but we love what you dig up! John R. Carpenter La Mesa, CA Bruce E. Carpenter wrote: > > The identity of Robert Carpenter, the brother of Town Clerk John, might well > be revealed in the following legal documents. The nature of the cases is > not clear. However, we can safely assume they are property related, families > with means trying to increase their holdings and influence. Interesting is > the designation of clerk for Robert Carpenter. Those of us who have read > Chaucer will remember the Clerks Tale. Clerks in the Middle Ages were very > well known people indeed. The term clerk would be better rendered as lawyer > , a clerk being half accountant, half lawyer in a society where illiteracy > was common. Powerful interests were in real need of educated individuals who > would take care of business. Clerks were educated at universities like > Oxford and other institutions. We can assume that anyone who was a clerk > came from a family of means, a family that could support a son through his > course of education, for a career of clerkship for some powerful economic > organization, or family like an aristocratic one. The place in the > dispositions is Kyngeston upon Thames (modern spelling is Kingston on > Thames). In the same town is a Thomas Carpenter, relation unspecified. > Thomas has no specified trade connection, which is very interesting. The > proximity to the Thames is also suggestive that Robert and Thomas were > somehow connected to ships and trade. The town is also connected to the > crown. > > To the sherrif of Surrey.Like writ, mutatis mutandis, by mainprise of > Thomas Grenewort, Robert Carpenter clerk, both of Kyngeston upon Thames, > John Stokes of Someset, and William Rason of Kyngeston upon Thames, in favor > of Robert Rugge wever and Agnes his wife. (Close Rolls, 1407, June 2nd) > > To the sherrif of Surrey.Like writ. Mutantis mutandis, by mainprise of John > Smart, Thomas Richard cordwaner, Thomas Glover and Thomas Avery cordwaner > of Middlesex in favor of Thomas Carpenter of Kyngeston upon Thames, Joan > his wife, Nicholas Fisshere of Kyngeston on Thames and Agnes his wife at > suit of John Prynce shoutman and alice his wife. (August 8th)
Dear PaWZake, Please review the file data below below. They may be helpful. If you have any questions, please contact me. JRC INDIVIDUAL DATA RIN:44619 - --------------------------------------------------- Name:John W. CARPENTER Sex:M ID No: Birth: 1830 Place:,Surry,NC Chr: Place: Marr: Spouse: Marr: Spouse: Marr: Spouse: Death: Place: Burial: Place: Father:William CARPENTER Sr.-5455 Mother:RODY-44621 Notes ---------------------------------------------- Re: Carpenter 2000CD Date: 99-06-01 23:17:19 EDT. From: PaW Zake@aol.com To: JRCRIN001 Thanks for responding: We'll try this ... James W. Carpenter was born about 1861 in DeSoto County, Miss He married Cass Crow about 1876-1879 They lived in Tate Co. He died 11/11/1931 In Titus county, TX. I believe that his father was John W. Carpenter born 1831-1833 in NC Md Mary C 1853-1855 Died between 1861 and 1865 (in war?) He was in DeSoto Co, Miss in 1860 as J W, but 1863 Military Tax lists only show John W. 1860 census shows worth of 4800 and 17,500 John and Mary's children: J.B. male about 1856 WT sex unknown abt 1858 James W. abt 1861 In 1870 DeSoto County Miss they are with J G Worrell and Mary has two new Worrell children the oldest born about 1866. If you need more, please contact me--have hit a brick wall. Have been trying to find military records for a JW and found a Capt. JM Carpenter from Tishomingo, Co who was killed 7/28/1864 and a JW Carpenter who was found on a POW list and muster records from2/15/1862-10-1864 from Pontotoc County, but does not say if he lived or died. Thank you for any assistance. Have records on descendants if this matches up!! ***************************************************** Subject: J.W. Carpenter of DeSoto Co. MISP Date: Mon, 19 Jul 1999 22:35:01 EDT From: PaWZake@aol.com Have been lurking for a while and now feel I can post: 1860 DeSoto MISP Census J.W. Carpenter, 29 NC M.C. 23 GA J.B. 4 MISP W.T. 1 MISP He had a personal value of 4800 and 17500. That seems large for those days and the surrounding valuations by others. Granny said that they lost a plantation in the War and that a town is now built where it was. Is this value enough for a small plantation?? 1863 Military Tax Lists only a John W. Carpenter so probably is his name. 1870 De Soto Co believe that the following is his wife and new husband. If this is her, then maybe J.W. was killed in Civil WAr. J.G. Worrell 42 TN Mary C 32 GA J.B. Carpenter 14`` MISP W.T. Carpenter 12 MISP J.W. Carpenter 9 MISP Lilla Worrell 4 Annie Worrell 1 Believe that either the JB or the JW is the following: 1880 Tate County MISP James Carpenter 24 MISP Cassa 23 MISP Willie 1 MISP James and Cassa(na) were married in Carroll County 2/28/1878. Cass's father Riley Crow married his second wife Elizabeth Johnson in Carroll County 1/17/1878. Believe that J.G. Worrell and Mary may have moved to Caroll County after 1870. Have not been able to match my James W. Carpenter who married Cassana with any Carrol County Carpenters. Am new to this so any leads appreciated. - ---------------------------------------------- Name:John W. CARPENTER-44619 Birth: 1830 FAMILY NUMBER:4695 - --------------------------------------------------- Husband:William CARPENTER Sr.-5455 Br/Ch: 1770 Wife:RODY-44621 Br/Ch:Abt 1780 - --------------------------------------------------- CHILD BR/CH ----- ----- 1. William OR Buck CARPENTER-13296 1808 2. John W. CARPENTER-44619 **** 1830 3. Frances CARPENTER-44767 1829 4. Nancy CARPENTER-44777 1831 INDIVIDUAL DATA RIN:5455 - ---------------------------------------------- Name:William CARPENTER Sr. Sex:M ID No:MTL6-K0 Birth: 1770 Place:,Nash,NC Chr: Place: Marr: Spouse:RODY-44621 Marr: Spouse: Marr: Spouse: Death: Jan 1859 Place:,Surry,NC Burial: Place: Father:Thomas "Jack" CARPENTER-5337 Mother:Mary LEE-5339 Notes --------------------------------------------------- !Carolyn Spence of Trinity, NC in a letter dated 8 Mar 1999, updated this line. She believes that the data for this William Carpenter (who is listed in the Ancestral File as dying on 26 Nov. 1832 in Surry County, NC) is in error. She says the following Will she found provides information that William died in 1859 and not 1832. !WILL: Will of William Carpenter from Surry County NC Will book # 5 page 46. I think this William was the father of Buck Carpenter. WILL OF WILLIAM CARPENTER (dated) 4 JAN 1859 My body shall be decently buried and my funeral charges and just debts be paid by executor. My two youngest daughters Nancy Carpenter and Frances Carpenter get my tract of land whereon I now live divided as follows: Beginning at a forked pine the west corner of said land, then runs southeast to a white oak the beginning corner of said tract, the south side of said land and of said tract I give to my daughter Nancy and the north side together with the mill I give to my daughter Frances. Also, my daughters Nancy and Frances all my household and kitchen furniture to be equally divided between them and one cow each. Son John Carpenter gets my blacksmith tools. The balance of my property is to be sold and equally divided between all my lawful heirs. Executor: Frances Carpenter. Witnesses: Jonathan J. McMickle and Joseph Isaacks. Proved by J J McMickle. Probate Aug term 1860. William was last found in the 1850 Surry census with a daughter Frances 19, Mandy which is probably Nancy mispelled, and a child named Rhudy which was probably Rhody mispelled. John lived nearby and was already a blacksmith, indicating to me that John was using his fathers tools, and the Will above gave the instruments to John outright. Since a wife was not named in this Will written in 1859, she had died prior to Jan 1859. - ------------------------------------------------ Name:William CARPENTER Sr.-5455 Birth: 1770
The identity of Robert Carpenter, the brother of Town Clerk John, might well be revealed in the following legal documents. The nature of the cases is not clear. However, we can safely assume they are property related, families with means trying to increase their holdings and influence. Interesting is the designation of clerk for Robert Carpenter. Those of us who have read Chaucer will remember the Clerks Tale. Clerks in the Middle Ages were very well known people indeed. The term clerk would be better rendered as lawyer , a clerk being half accountant, half lawyer in a society where illiteracy was common. Powerful interests were in real need of educated individuals who would take care of business. Clerks were educated at universities like Oxford and other institutions. We can assume that anyone who was a clerk came from a family of means, a family that could support a son through his course of education, for a career of clerkship for some powerful economic organization, or family like an aristocratic one. The place in the dispositions is Kyngeston upon Thames (modern spelling is Kingston on Thames). In the same town is a Thomas Carpenter, relation unspecified. Thomas has no specified trade connection, which is very interesting. The proximity to the Thames is also suggestive that Robert and Thomas were somehow connected to ships and trade. The town is also connected to the crown. To the sherrif of Surrey.Like writ, mutatis mutandis, by mainprise of Thomas Grenewort, Robert Carpenter clerk, both of Kyngeston upon Thames, John Stokes of Someset, and William Rason of Kyngeston upon Thames, in favor of Robert Rugge wever and Agnes his wife. (Close Rolls, 1407, June 2nd) To the sherrif of Surrey.Like writ. Mutantis mutandis, by mainprise of John Smart, Thomas Richard cordwaner, Thomas Glover and Thomas Avery cordwaner of Middlesex in favor of Thomas Carpenter of Kyngeston upon Thames, Joan his wife, Nicholas Fisshere of Kyngeston on Thames and Agnes his wife at suit of John Prynce shoutman and alice his wife. (August 8th)
This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------EB95B6E159D6AE5B3ACE66FD Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear Jan, Attached are two files on the ancestors (10 gen snapshot) and descendants (including some of your data) of ... Ebonezer 6241 oE CARPENTER-3757 25 Jan 1766 Cumberland,Rhode Island --SPOUSE-- MRIN:1534 Lydia 6242 ANGELL-3758 30 Dec 1763 Cumberland,Rhode Island The data file I received recently had the above person. The file has NOT been cleaned up. It will take me a few days to clean it up and process it. The 6241 is my ID number when I merge the records. If you can supply more data (GEDCOM?) I would be happy to share what I have. Sincerely, John R. Carpenter La Mesa, CA JRobison2@aol.com wrote: > > Can anyone fill in any blanks??? > > Descendants of Ebenezer Carpenter > > 1 Ebenezer Carpenter d: 1801 in Cumberland, Rhode Island Fact > 1: Was a yeoman Fact 2: March 25, 1801 Will dated > > .. +Lydia Unknown > ....... 2 Ebenezer Carpenter b: Abt. 1792 > > ................ 3 Ebenezer Carpenter b: Abt. 1817 d: 1847 in > Potter Hill, RI > .................... +Frances Unknown > .......................... 4 George Bradford Carpenter b: November > 08, 1842 in > Ashaway, RI d: May 23, 1914 in Ashaway, RI .............................. > +Mary Elizabeth Covey m: September 26, 1861 in > Ashaway, RI b: August 06, 1846 in North Brookfield, > Madison, New York d: > 1926 in Ashaway, RI Father: > Alexander Madison Covey Mother: Elizabeth Wells (Lewis) > Greene > ....... 2 William Carpenter > > ....... 2 John Jay Carpenter > > ....... 2 David Angell Carpenter > > ....... 2 Amey Carpenter > > ....... 2 Lucretia Carpenter > > ....... 2 Maria Carpenter > > ....... 2 Hannah Carpenter > > > Thanks in Advance! > > Jan Robison > Casselberry, FL --------------EB95B6E159D6AE5B3ACE66FD Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; name="6241a.txt" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline; filename="6241a.txt" Ahnentafel Chart for Ebonezer 6241 or Ebenezer CARPENTER-3757 First Generation 1. Ebonezer 6241 or Ebenezer CARPENTER-3757 was born 25 Jan 1766 in Cumberland, Rhode Island. He died 28 May 1812. Will: Will dated 25 March 1801. A Yeoman. Ebonezer married (MRIN:1534) Lydia 6242 ANGELL-3758, daughter of Abraham ANGELL-3759 and MARY-3760 (MRIN:1535) on 28 Apr 1785. Lydia was born 30 Dec 1763 in Cumberland, Rhode Island. She died 19 Sep 1851. Second Generation 2. William CARPENTER-2401 was born 13 Mar 1724/1725 in Attleboro, Bristol Co., Massachusetts. He died 17 Oct 1812. William married Mary FRENCH-2402 on 9 Jun 1744 in Attleboro, Bristol Co., Massachusetts (MRIN:958). Line 183708 from GEDCOM File not recognizable or too long: CHIL _FREL Natural Line 183709 from GEDCOM File not recognizable or too long: CHIL _MREL Natural Line 183711 from GEDCOM File not recognizable or too long: CHIL _FREL Natural Line 183712 from GEDCOM File not recognizable or too long: CHIL _MREL Natural Line 183714 from GEDCOM File not recognizable or too long: CHIL _FREL Natural Line 183715 from GEDCOM File not recognizable or too long: CHIL _MREL Natural Line 183717 from GEDCOM File not recognizable or too long: CHIL _FREL Natural Line 183718 from GEDCOM File not recognizable or too long: CHIL _MREL Natural Line 183720 from GEDCOM File not recognizable or too long: CHIL _FREL Natural Line 183721 from GEDCOM File not recognizable or too long: CHIL _MREL Natural Line 183723 from GEDCOM File not recognizable or too long: CHIL _FREL Natural Line 183724 from GEDCOM File not recognizable or too long: CHIL _MREL Natural Line 183726 from GEDCOM File not recognizable or too long: CHIL _FREL Natural Line 183727 from GEDCOM File not recognizable or too long: CHIL _MREL Natural Line 183729 from GEDCOM File not recognizable or too long: CHIL _FREL Natural Line 183730 from GEDCOM File not recognizable or too long: CHIL _MREL Natural Line 183732 from GEDCOM File not recognizable or too long: CHIL _FREL Natural Line 183733 from GEDCOM File not recognizable or too long: CHIL _MREL Natural Line 183735 from GEDCOM File not recognizable or too long: CHIL _FREL Natural Line 183736 from GEDCOM File not recognizable or too long: CHIL _MREL Natural Line 183738 from GEDCOM File not recognizable or too long: CHIL _FREL Natural Line 183739 from GEDCOM File not recognizable or too long: CHIL _MREL Natural 3. Mary FRENCH-2402 was born 25 Dec 1726. She died 1 Jan 1815. Third Generation 4. Ebenezer CARPENTER-1791 was born 5 Jun 1694 in Rehoboth, Bristol Co., Mass.. He died in Attleboro, Mass.. Ebenezer married Mehitable BISHOP-1792 on 31 Oct 1717 (MRIN:982). Line 184005 from GEDCOM File not recognizable or too long: CHIL _FREL Natural Line 184006 from GEDCOM File not recognizable or too long: CHIL _MREL Natural Line 184008 from GEDCOM File not recognizable or too long: CHIL _FREL Natural Line 184009 from GEDCOM File not recognizable or too long: CHIL _MREL Natural Line 184011 from GEDCOM File not recognizable or too long: CHIL _FREL Natural Line 184012 from GEDCOM File not recognizable or too long: CHIL _MREL Natural Line 184014 from GEDCOM File not recognizable or too long: CHIL _FREL Natural Line 184015 from GEDCOM File not recognizable or too long: CHIL _MREL Natural Line 184017 from GEDCOM File not recognizable or too long: CHIL _FREL Natural Line 184018 from GEDCOM File not recognizable or too long: CHIL _MREL Natural 5. Mehitable BISHOP-1792 was born 1694. She died 14 Mar 1728/1729 in Rehoboth, Bristol Co., Mass.. 6. Thomas FRENCH-2403 married Mary BROWN-2404 (MRIN:959).. Line 183747 from GEDCOM File not recognizable or too long: CHIL _FREL Natural Line 183748 from GEDCOM File not recognizable or too long: CHIL _MREL Natural 7. Mary BROWN-2404. Fourth Generation 8. William CARPENTER-815 was born 20 Jun 1659 in Rehoboth, Bristol Co., Massachusetts. He died 10 Mar 1709/1710 in Attleboro, Bristol Co., Massachusetts. William married Elizabeth ROBINSON-449 on 6 Apr 1685 (MRIN:247). Line 175402 from GEDCOM File not recognizable or too long: CHIL _FREL Natural Line 175403 from GEDCOM File not recognizable or too long: CHIL _MREL Natural Line 175405 from GEDCOM File not recognizable or too long: CHIL _FREL Natural Line 175406 from GEDCOM File not recognizable or too long: CHIL _MREL Natural Line 175408 from GEDCOM File not recognizable or too long: CHIL _FREL Natural Line 175409 from GEDCOM File not recognizable or too long: CHIL _MREL Natural Line 175411 from GEDCOM File not recognizable or too long: CHIL _FREL Natural Line 175412 from GEDCOM File not recognizable or too long: CHIL _MREL Natural Line 175414 from GEDCOM File not recognizable or too long: CHIL _FREL Natural Line 175415 from GEDCOM File not recognizable or too long: CHIL _MREL Natural Line 175417 from GEDCOM File not recognizable or too long: CHIL _FREL Natural Line 175418 from GEDCOM File not recognizable or too long: CHIL _MREL Natural Line 175420 from GEDCOM File not recognizable or too long: CHIL _FREL Natural Line 175421 from GEDCOM File not recognizable or too long: CHIL _MREL Natural Line 175423 from GEDCOM File not recognizable or too long: CHIL _FREL Natural Line 175424 from GEDCOM File not recognizable or too long: CHIL _MREL Natural Line 175426 from GEDCOM File not recognizable or too long: CHIL _FREL Natural Line 175427 from GEDCOM File not recognizable or too long: CHIL _MREL Natural 9. Elizabeth ROBINSON-449 was born 3 Apr 1657. Fifth Generation 16. William CARPENTER-426 was born 22 Nov 1631 in Shalburne, England. He died 26 Jan 1702/1703 in Rehoboth, Bristol Co., Massachusetts. William married Priscilla BENNETT-475 on 5 Oct 1651 in Rehoboth, Bristol Co., Massachusetts (MRIN:557). Line 2912 from GEDCOM File not recognizable or too long: _FA9 Line 2913 from GEDCOM File not recognizable or too long: _FA9 DATE 13 MAY 1668 Line 2914 from GEDCOM File not recognizable or too long: _FA9 PLAC Elected Town Clerk Of Rehoboth Line 2915 from GEDCOM File not recognizable or too long: _FA10 Line 2916 from GEDCOM File not recognizable or too long: _FA10 DATE 1668 Line 2917 from GEDCOM File not recognizable or too long: _FA10 PLAC Sent to the general court of Plymouth Line 178801 from GEDCOM File not recognizable or too long: CHIL _FREL Natural Line 178802 from GEDCOM File not recognizable or too long: CHIL _MREL Natural Line 178804 from GEDCOM File not recognizable or too long: CHIL _FREL Natural Line 178805 from GEDCOM File not recognizable or too long: CHIL _MREL Natural Line 178807 from GEDCOM File not recognizable or too long: CHIL _FREL Natural Line 178808 from GEDCOM File not recognizable or too long: CHIL _MREL Natural Line 178810 from GEDCOM File not recognizable or too long: CHIL _FREL Natural Line 178811 from GEDCOM File not recognizable or too long: CHIL _MREL Natural Line 178852 from GEDCOM File not recognizable or too long: CHIL _FREL Natural Line 178853 from GEDCOM File not recognizable or too long: CHIL _MREL Natural Line 178855 from GEDCOM File not recognizable or too long: CHIL _FREL Natural Line 178856 from GEDCOM File not recognizable or too long: CHIL _MREL Natural Line 178858 from GEDCOM File not recognizable or too long: CHIL _FREL Natural Line 178859 from GEDCOM File not recognizable or too long: CHIL _MREL Natural Line 178861 from GEDCOM File not recognizable or too long: CHIL _FREL Natural Line 178862 from GEDCOM File not recognizable or too long: CHIL _MREL Natural Line 178864 from GEDCOM File not recognizable or too long: CHIL _FREL Natural Line 178865 from GEDCOM File not recognizable or too long: CHIL _MREL Natural Line 178867 from GEDCOM File not recognizable or too long: CHIL _FREL Natural Line 178868 from GEDCOM File not recognizable or too long: CHIL _MREL Natural Line 178870 from GEDCOM File not recognizable or too long: CHIL _FREL Natural Line 178871 from GEDCOM File not recognizable or too long: CHIL _MREL Natural Line 178873 from GEDCOM File not recognizable or too long: CHIL _FREL Natural Line 178874 from GEDCOM File not recognizable or too long: CHIL _MREL Natural Line 178876 from GEDCOM File not recognizable or too long: CHIL _FREL Natural Line 178877 from GEDCOM File not recognizable or too long: CHIL _MREL Natural Line 178879 from GEDCOM File not recognizable or too long: CHIL _FREL Natural Line 178880 from GEDCOM File not recognizable or too long: CHIL _MREL Natural 17. Priscilla BENNETT-475 died 20 Oct 1663 in Rehoboth, Bristol Co., Massachusetts. 18. George ROBINSON-448 married Joanna INGRAHAM-442 (MRIN:248).. Line 175434 from GEDCOM File not recognizable or too long: CHIL _FREL Natural Line 175435 from GEDCOM File not recognizable or too long: CHIL _MREL Natural 19. Joanna INGRAHAM-442. Sixth Generation 32. William Carpenter of REHOBOTH-229 was born 23 May 1605 in Greenwich, Wilshire, London. He died 7 Feb 1658/1659 in Rehoboth, Bristol Co., Mass. William married Abigail BENNETT-234 on 28 Apr 1625 (MRIN:374). Line 1424 from GEDCOM File not recognizable or too long: _FA6 Line 1425 from GEDCOM File not recognizable or too long: _FA6 DATE 13 MAY 1640 Line 1426 from GEDCOM File not recognizable or too long: _FA6 PLAC Admitted a free man of Weymouth Mass. Line 1427 from GEDCOM File not recognizable or too long: _FA7 Line 1428 from GEDCOM File not recognizable or too long: _FA7 DATE 1641 Line 1429 from GEDCOM File not recognizable or too long: _FA7 PLAC Representitive of Weymouth, Mass. Line 1430 from GEDCOM File not recognizable or too long: _FA8 Line 1431 from GEDCOM File not recognizable or too long: _FA8 DATE 1643 Line 1432 from GEDCOM File not recognizable or too long: _FA8 PLAC Representitive of Weymouth, Mass. Line 1433 from GEDCOM File not recognizable or too long: _FA9 Line 1434 from GEDCOM File not recognizable or too long: _FA9 DATE 1645 Line 1435 from GEDCOM File not recognizable or too long: _FA9 PLAC Representitive of Rehoboth, Mass. Line 1436 from GEDCOM File not recognizable or too long: _FA10 Line 1437 from GEDCOM File not recognizable or too long: _FA10 DATE 1641 Line 1438 from GEDCOM File not recognizable or too long: _FA10 PLAC Constable of Rehoboth, Mass. Line 1439 from GEDCOM File not recognizable or too long: _FA11 Line 1440 from GEDCOM File not recognizable or too long: _FA11 DATE 28 MAR 1645 Line 1441 from GEDCOM File not recognizable or too long: _FA11 PLAC Admitted an inhabitant of Rehoboth, Mass. Line 1442 from GEDCOM File not recognizable or too long: _FA12 Line 1443 from GEDCOM File not recognizable or too long: _FA12 DATE JUN 1645 Line 1444 from GEDCOM File not recognizable or too long: _FA12 PLAC Admitted a free man of Rehoboth, Mass. Line 1445 from GEDCOM File not recognizable or too long: _FA13 Line 1446 from GEDCOM File not recognizable or too long: _FA13 DATE 1643 Line 1447 from GEDCOM File not recognizable or too long: _FA13 PLAC served as town clerk until 1649 Line 176961 from GEDCOM File not recognizable or too long: CHIL _FREL Natural Line 176962 from GEDCOM File not recognizable or too long: CHIL _MREL Natural Line 176964 from GEDCOM File not recognizable or too long: CHIL _FREL Natural Line 176965 from GEDCOM File not recognizable or too long: CHIL _MREL Natural Line 176967 from GEDCOM File not recognizable or too long: CHIL _FREL Natural Line 176968 from GEDCOM File not recognizable or too long: CHIL _MREL Natural Line 176970 from GEDCOM File not recognizable or too long: CHIL _FREL Natural Line 176971 from GEDCOM File not recognizable or too long: CHIL _MREL Natural Line 176973 from GEDCOM File not recognizable or too long: CHIL _FREL Natural Line 176974 from GEDCOM File not recognizable or too long: CHIL _MREL Natural Line 176976 from GEDCOM File not recognizable or too long: CHIL _FREL Natural Line 176977 from GEDCOM File not recognizable or too long: CHIL _MREL Natural Line 176979 from GEDCOM File not recognizable or too long: CHIL _FREL Family member Line 176980 from GEDCOM File not recognizable or too long: CHIL _MREL Family member Line 176982 from GEDCOM File not recognizable or too long: CHIL _FREL Natural Line 176983 from GEDCOM File not recognizable or too long: CHIL _MREL Natural Line 176985 from GEDCOM File not recognizable or too long: CHIL _FREL Natural Line 176986 from GEDCOM File not recognizable or too long: CHIL _MREL Natural 33. Abigail BENNETT-234 was born 1 Jan 1603/1604 in Shalbourne, England. She died 22 Feb 1686/1687 in Rehoboth, Bristol Co., Mass. Seventh Generation 64. William Carpenter of WHERWELL-20884 was born 1576 in London, England. He died after 1640 in England. William married PRISCILLA-416 (MRIN:450). Line 177691 from GEDCOM File not recognizable or too long: CHIL _FREL Natural Line 177692 from
Dear Patti, I had no matches with a John Carpenter b. abt 1810 in MD. I did a search of John Carpenters b. abt 1810 and came up with 98 of them. None married an Emeline. (One Emily and another Ameila was the closest but families do not match) When you have more data, please let me know. Sorry I could not be of much more help. John R. Carpenter La Mesa, CA Ancestor1@aol.com wrote: > > Hi All: > First time posting to list and I need help! I have had absolutely no luck > whatsoever in my CARPENTER research. Hopefully, it will look familiar to > someone out there. This is all I have on my Carpenter line: > > John CARPENTER b. ca 1810 Maryland? d. ca 1865. Mar. Emeline ________ ca > 1831. She was born ca 1817 > Children: > Lewanda (sp.?) b. ca 1832 > Mary J. b. ca 1835 > Sarah S. b. ca 1837 > John R. Carpenter b. ca 1839 (believe he mar. Eleanor Rosanna > McChesney) > Samuel E. b. ca 1841 > Emeline b. ca 1842 d. 16 Mar 1901; mar. Robert "Alexander" > Kane > Benjamin F. b. ca 1846 > > They appear in the 1840 Census in Charles Co., Maryland and the 1850 Census > in Washington, DC. His unadministered estate was committed to the Sheriff in > 1866 in Fairfax Co., VA . > Hopefully someone out there will know more. I would greatly appreciate any > assistance. Thank you....... > Patti
Have been lurking for a while and now feel I can post: 1860 DeSoto MISP Census J.W. Carpenter, 29 NC M.C. 23 GA J.B. 4 MISP W.T. 1 MISP He had a personal value of 4800 and 17500. That seems large for those days and the surrounding valuations by others. Granny said that they lost a plantation in the War and that a town is now built where it was. Is this value enough for a small plantation?? 1863 Military Tax Lists only a John W. Carpenter so probably is his name. 1870 De Soto Co believe that the following is his wife and new husband. If this is her, then maybe J.W. was killed in Civil WAr. J.G. Worrell 42 TN Mary C 32 GA J.B. Carpenter 14`` MISP W.T. Carpenter 12 MISP J.W. Carpenter 9 MISP Lilla Worrell 4 Annie Worrell 1 Believe that either the JB or the JW is the following: 1880 Tate County MISP James Carpenter 24 MISP Cassa 23 MISP Willie 1 MISP James and Cassa(na) were married in Carroll County 2/28/1878. Cass's father Riley Crow married his second wife Elizabeth Johnson in Carroll County 1/17/1878. Believe that J.G. Worrell and Mary may have moved to Caroll County after 1870. Have not been able to match my James W. Carpenter who married Cassana with any Carrol County Carpenters. Am new to this so any leads appreciated.
Terry, Penny, Richard and others I've decided to attend the annual Gathering of the Hackers Creek Pioneer Descendants in West Virginia in August. It's been several years since my last visit in WV. I'm planning to spend one day (or more if necessary) in the courthouses in Sutton (Braxton County) and Summersville (Nicholas County) researching the deeds from the family of Jeremiah after his death and supplementing the ones I already have. If any of you has any leads on recorded deeds in either county (other than the one you've already shared with me, Terry) , let me know. Also, let me know if any of you has any additional ideas regarding the identity of his children. I'll see what I can find! Dennis
In a message dated 7/15/99 1:33:47 PM Central Daylight Time, ANALYTIX@valley.net writes: << For PAt: I do not find any John C. Carpenter in the index >> I would like to trade info on your John C. Carpenter, please contact me at Ladyh19777@aol.com Thanks! Alinda
Can anyone fill in any blanks??? Descendants of Ebenezer Carpenter 1 Ebenezer Carpenter d: 1801 in Cumberland, Rhode Island Fact 1: Was a yeoman Fact 2: March 25, 1801 Will dated .. +Lydia Unknown ....... 2 Ebenezer Carpenter b: Abt. 1792 ................ 3 Ebenezer Carpenter b: Abt. 1817 d: 1847 in Potter Hill, RI .................... +Frances Unknown .......................... 4 George Bradford Carpenter b: November 08, 1842 in Ashaway, RI d: May 23, 1914 in Ashaway, RI .............................. +Mary Elizabeth Covey m: September 26, 1861 in Ashaway, RI b: August 06, 1846 in North Brookfield, Madison, New York d: 1926 in Ashaway, RI Father: Alexander Madison Covey Mother: Elizabeth Wells (Lewis) Greene ....... 2 William Carpenter ....... 2 John Jay Carpenter ....... 2 David Angell Carpenter ....... 2 Amey Carpenter ....... 2 Lucretia Carpenter ....... 2 Maria Carpenter ....... 2 Hannah Carpenter Thanks in Advance! Jan Robison Casselberry, FL
Looking for information on Lucindia Carpenter b. 12 jan 1847>Iowa d. 29 feb 1912>Brandish Neb. buried in Exira Iowa. m. James Birge on 22 mar 1862 Children of above: Elijah b. 26 sept 1863>near Exira Iowa d. 1 mar 1949>Redding CA. m. Anna WOOD>27 jan 1892>Audoban Co. Iowa Elias b. abt. 1867 m. poss. Minnie (Blood) Gant>19 aug 1903>Atlantic Iowa Winona b. abt. 1875 m. 1st. Willhelm Luddwig abt 25 apr 1887-1889>Audubon Co. Iowa 2nd Chas Randolph 1 july 1891>Audabon Co. Iowa Clara B. b. 1871 m. James baker 3 apr 1887 Ida b. 1880 m. poss. ?? Maree (lived in Marshfield Wisc. 1949) Lucindia's parents were possibly Rueben Carpenter and Martha ??? Can anyone help me? Elizabeth
Looking for info on; Elsa [Eley, Alice] CARPENTER, born in Sweden Or Scotland, she was born 1793, Living in the Cumberland area of R.I. Married to Charles Fiske on Dec. 31 1811. Can anyone help. Frank in Novie ffiske@north.nsis.com
This book is also available online at Family Tree Maker's Genealogy Library: http://www.familytreemaker.com/glc_deny.html It is $9.99 for a one month subscription. They have many other useful books including census data. Suzanne -----Original Message----- From: Robin Carpenter [mailto:ANALYTIX@valley.net] Sent: Thursday, July 15, 1999 2:31 PM To: CARPENTER-L@rootsweb.com Subject: Zimmerman/Carpenter Book For Gloria C: I do not find any "John Zimmerman" or any Kerker in the index. For PAt: I do not find any John C. Carpenter in the index. Remember, however, that inthe very early years (after immigration) the Carpenter and Zimmerman names were intermittantly switched-around. I cannot say where you can find the Seymour Carpentr book. I know some are around, becuae I have my copy (my brother found it in a yard sale) and I since saw another copy at a local used book sale (should have bought the extra, I guess). I have bought various old genealogical books at Tuttle Antiquarian Bookstore in Rutland VT. They have a web page. There are many others. Try bibliofind.com on the internet (and otehr similar services). If you don't have an antiquarian bookstore you rely on, get one. Get on their mailing and catalog list. The specific reference you're seeking here is: Generalogical Notes on the Carpenter Fam,ily Including the Autobiography and Personal Reminiscences of Dr. Deymour D. Carpenter Edited by Edwin Sawyer Walker A.M. Springfield IL Illinois State Journal Co,Printers MCMVII Copyright 1907, George N. Kreider, M.D. The back of the title page says that 500 copies were printed. My copy is unnumbered, however, so maybe there was an overrun. Good luck. RLC ______________________________
Dear Bruce, I went into the box that had the material from my Dad's vacation. The materials on St. Peter Cornwall was the church he found the Carpenter inscription on the floor before the lectern. It reads Carpenter 1442. I thought I was positive it had been St. Martin. The St. Martin Church he visited was in Warwick. It too had a Carpenter buried there but from 1585. I forgot I had the will of John Carpenter, the younger and his wife Katherine in the copy of the Carpenter Memorial (1898) By Amos B. Carpenter. John R. Carpenter La Mesa, CA Bruce E. Carpenter wrote: > > John: > According to An Encyclopaedia of London the St. Martin > Outwich burned down and was rebuilt in 1727, then "In > 1874 the church was demolished" (p. 95).Could you recheck this information > from you dad, as I understand some memorial objects in St. Martin's were > moved to another church, St. Helen's Bishopgate. > I can see nothing wrong wit your birth dates of Town Clerk and father > Richard, although 1335 strikes me as > too early. However, there seems no doubt that Robert's > son Richard was a boy in 1441. > Sincerely, > Bruce > > -----Original Message----- > From: John Carpenter <jrcrin001@home.com> > To: CARPENTER-L@rootsweb.com <CARPENTER-L@rootsweb.com> > Date: Thursday, July 15, 1999 9:11 AM > Subject: Re: Chaundelers and Chandlers #3 > > >Dear Bruce, > > > >My father was in England several years ago and visited The CHURCH OF ST. > >MARTIN, Ooutwich, Bishop Gate St., in London, England. On the floor was > >1395 with Richard Carpenter's name. > > > >Per the booklet "THE CITY OF LONDON SCHOOL" - John Carpenter the > >younger's will was made in his 70th year. This indicates his birth about > >1371/1372. He had two older brothers (no sisters mentioned) which means > >his parents could not have been born any earlier than 1350 (1372 -2 -2 = > >1368 -18 = 1350). I have 1335 as a guesstimate using a wider range and > >possible other children. John the elder born about 1360/1362 for > >example. > > > >This leaves the "other" Richard, son of Robert, of Richard and Christina > >Carpenter once again as a possibility. > > > >Let's keep brainstorming this! Maybe someone will come up with more > >records or insight. > > > >By the way, How long did you spend in Japan teaching? I have a friend > >who is thinking about teaching there. Can I give him your E-address? > > > >John R. Carpenter > >La Mesa, CA > > > >Bruce E. Carpenter wrote: > >> > >> John: > >> Happy to hear from you as always. The death date of > >> 1395 for Richard must surely be a modern estimate. Town Clerk John's will > of > >> 1441 states that his parents are dead and buried in Outwich. This > document > >> in no way > >> precludes Richard Carpenter being alive in 1412, the date of my > discovered > >> document.Likewise the birth date of Richard for 1335 is aalso a modern > >> estimate, an estimate > >> that probably is much too early. Again, Town Clerk John's > >> birth and death dates are entirely modern conjectures. If I were to > estimate > >> a daeth date for Richard, something close to 1420 would be reasonable. > >> Sincerely, > >> Bruce > >> Clinton, WA > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: John Carpenter <jrcrin001@home.com> > >> To: CARPENTER-L@rootsweb.com <CARPENTER-L@rootsweb.com> > >> Date: Wednesday, July 14, 1999 10:39 AM > >> Subject: Re: Chaundelers and Chandlers #2 > >> > >> >Dear Bruce, > >> > > >> >Continuing from the end of the last E-message ... > >> > > >> >If Richard Carpenter -86 (who married Christina) died in 1395, who was > >> >the Richard Carpenter noted in the November 1412 record? > >> > > >> >In searching my records I have ... > >> > > >> > > >> > +---¦Richard CARPENTER-86 > >> >Robert CARPENTER-14719 ¦ ¦Abt 1335 > >> >Abt 1368 ----------¦ ¦of London,Middlesex,England > >> >of London,Middlesex,England ¦ MRIN:18 > >> > --SPOUSE-- MRIN:5247 +---¦Christina-87 > >> > ¦Abt 1335/1337 > >> > ¦of London,Middlesex,England > >> > --CHILDREN-- > >> >1. Alexander CARPENTER-23395 Abt 1389 > >> >2. Joan CARPENTER-14721 Abt 1390 > >> >3. Richard CARPENTER-4675 1392 > >> >4. Katherine CARPENTER-14722 Abt 1395 > >> >5. Henry CARPENTER-16314 Abt 1395 > >> > > >> >The notes for the Richard - 4675 above list: > >> >A Goldsmith by trade. In 1410, City of London Records indicate > >> >a Richard Carpenter and Johannes Norman, goldsmiths (Chaundelers?) > >> >sponsoring an orphan. Apparently this of one of many encouraged by this > >> >Robber's Grand-Uncle John Carpenter, the younger, the noted town clerk > >> >of London. > >> >SEE: "THE CITY OF LONDON SCHOOL" By A. E. Douglas-Smith, 2nd Edition, > >> >1965, Oxford. The City of London School for the Poor was endowed by > >> >this Richard's uncle, named John or John the younger. On page 2 of the > >> >above, it lists that "Richard (gfather) was a chandler living in > >> >Billiter Lane in 1381. > >> >It also mentions on page 3, that a son named Robert Carpenter, "of whom > >> >nothing is known except that he had a son (named) Richard and two > >> >daughters (named) Joan and Katherine." This is known by John the > >> >younger's will. Other children may have been buried in the graveyard of > >> >the Church of St. Martin. > >> >end notes. > >> > > >> >This Richard (noted above) was born in 1392 and would have been about > >> >age 22 in November of 1412. Currently, until more data comes in, this > >> >was probably the Richard "of Fleetstreet" in 1412. > >> > > >> >While I am uncomfortable with this, it is logical. In 1410 this Richard > >> >Carpenter was known as a "goldsmith." But then in 1412 he was known as > >> >"of Fleetstreet." Could he have been a "gold chandler" or a broker for > >> >goldsmiths? > >> > > >> >What do you think? > >> > > >> >John R. Carpenter > >> >La Mesa, CA > >> > > >
John: I certainly admire your persistance. However, if you look at the 1441 will of Town Clerk John a bit more carefully you will notice that Richard's other mentioned siblings, that is daughters Joan and Kathrine. They are unmarried and were fully expected to marry by their uncle. This was in a culture and times that people married off women at age fourteen. You might counter that the girls were old maids, but really! Come now John, let us roll over in honorable defeat. Sincerely, Bruce E. Carpenter -----Original Message----- From: John Carpenter <jrcrin001@home.com> To: Bruce E. Carpenter <carp@whidbey.com>; rootsweb-review@rootsweb.com <rootsweb-review@rootsweb.com> Cc: Terry Lee Carpenter <diluvius@flash.net>; John L. Carpenter <familysearcher@mailcity.com> Date: Thursday, July 15, 1999 10:49 AM Subject: Re: Richard Carpenter b. abt. 1392/1389 >Dear Bruce, > >The dates you state are impossible, are indeed quite probable. See >below. > >It is important to note that John the younger's will did not state "age >of majority" or a similar phrase. We know the phrases "of majority" and >"of legal age" was used in that time period. The phrase "full age" is >the question. > >A "full age and mature discretion" is sometime after the age of majority >(age 21 for hundreds of years). In present day legal papers it is >usually defined as attaining a certain age (or sometimes after marriage >or children or some other goal like retirement). > >The retired lawyer I just talked to stated the wills he developed with >the context of a "full age" varied between age 30 and age 60. He will >search later his legal phrase books which has histories of various terms >for us. As a side note, the phrase "full age", has been used primarily >to preserve an estate from the indiscretions of youth. This by keeping >it out of their hands until they are responsible (or of mature >discretion) enough to handle it. > >Without knowing the full context of the will, or what defined a "full >age and mature discretion", we can only assume it was sometime after the >age of majority or after the legal age of 21. > >How was this phrase used in the context of the times? Does any one >know? > >If it was age 50 to 60, then the age for Richard, son of Robert of >Richard & Christina it would then fit about perfectly. > >Since Richard was born about 1392 according to my records (1392 + 21 = >1413) and should be at least age 21 to serve in the "Memorandum of a >mainprise body for body, made in chancery" in November of 1412, this >means his estimated birth year should be about 1391 if not sooner. If >we use the 1410 sponsoring an orphan this means he would have had to be >born by 1389. If you figure his father Robert was about age 18 or 20 >when he had Richard (1389 - 18 = 1371 / 1389 - 20 = 1369), you can see >that the estimate of Robert's birth is about correct in 1368. > >Is it possible to get a complete copy of his will? All I have is >extracts. > >Sincerely, > >John R. Carpenter >La Mesa, CA > >Bruce E. Carpenter wrote: >> >> John: >> in Town Clerk John's 1441 will he refers to his brother Robert's son Richard >> thusly, "Also I give and bequelth to my kinsman Richard, son of my brother >> Robert,for the increase of his estate when he shall arrive at full age and >> mature discretion...." >> Thus those 1390s dates for Roberts children are impossible. >> Sincerely, >> Bruce E. Carpenter >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: John Carpenter <jrcrin001@home.com> >> To: Bruce E. Carpenter <carp@whidbey.com> >> Cc: CARPENTER-L@rootsweb.com <CARPENTER-L@rootsweb.com>; John L. Carpenter >> <familysearcher@mailcity.com>; Richard L. Carpenter >> <adoptahighway1@home.com>; Terry Lee Carpenter <diluvius@flash.net> >> Date: Wednesday, July 14, 1999 10:38 AM >> Subject: Re: Chaundelers and Chandlers #2 >> >> >Dear Bruce, >> > >> >Continuing from the end of the last E-message ... >> > >> >If Richard Carpenter -86 (who married Christina) died in 1395, who was >> >the Richard Carpenter noted in the November 1412 record? >> > >> >In searching my records I have ... >> > >> > >> > +---¦Richard CARPENTER-86 >> >Robert CARPENTER-14719 ¦ ¦Abt 1335 >> >Abt 1368 ----------¦ ¦of London,Middlesex,England >> >of London,Middlesex,England ¦ MRIN:18 >> > --SPOUSE-- MRIN:5247 +---¦Christina-87 >> > ¦Abt 1335/1337 >> > ¦of London,Middlesex,England >> > --CHILDREN-- >> >1. Alexander CARPENTER-23395 Abt 1389 >> >2. Joan CARPENTER-14721 Abt 1390 >> >3. Richard CARPENTER-4675 1392 >> >4. Katherine CARPENTER-14722 Abt 1395 >> >5. Henry CARPENTER-16314 Abt 1395 >> > >> >The notes for the Richard - 4675 above list: >> >A Goldsmith by trade. In 1410, City of London Records indicate >> >a Richard Carpenter and Johannes Norman, goldsmiths (Chaundelers?) >> >sponsoring an orphan. Apparently this of one of many encouraged by this >> >Robber's Grand-Uncle John Carpenter, the younger, the noted town clerk >> >of London. >> >SEE: "THE CITY OF LONDON SCHOOL" By A. E. Douglas-Smith, 2nd Edition, >> >1965, Oxford. The City of London School for the Poor was endowed by >> >this Richard's uncle, named John or John the younger. On page 2 of the >> >above, it lists that "Richard (gfather) was a chandler living in >> >Billiter Lane in 1381. >> >It also mentions on page 3, that a son named Robert Carpenter, "of whom >> >nothing is known except that he had a son (named) Richard and two >> >daughters (named) Joan and Katherine." This is known by John the >> >younger's will. Other children may have been buried in the graveyard of >> >the Church of St. Martin. >> >end notes. >> > >> >This Richard (noted above) was born in 1392 and would have been about >> >age 22 in November of 1412. Currently, until more data comes in, this >> >was probably the Richard "of Fleetstreet" in 1412. >> > >> >While I am uncomfortable with this, it is logical. In 1410 this Richard >> >Carpenter was known as a "goldsmith." But then in 1412 he was known as >> >"of Fleetstreet." Could he have been a "gold chandler" or a broker for >> >goldsmiths? >> > >> >What do you think? >> > >> >John R. Carpenter >> >La Mesa, CA