Charlie, > Satellites? I'm not as well versed in this subject as you Bruce, and truely > enjoy the messages between you and John. But I dare say the word > "Satellites" is a recent addition to the English language. Or am I missing > out on something? I too am very interested in John and Bruce's discussions. Not having access to the texts they are studying, it is truely amazing what can be gleaned by just lurking quietly. But, sorry, you must be missing out on something. From the Concise Oxford Dictionary "persons follower or henchman or hanger-on, member of great man's retinue, underling; heavenly body revolving around another (often fig.) whence in current usage a artificial body launched from and encircling the earth. [French or from Latin satellit - nom. -les guard]." In other words, the use of the word satellite far preceeds our current use of it as a launched man-made orbital object. Please keep us thinking tho. :-) -- Norm Stephan

At 10:50 AM 7/31/1999 , Bruce E. Carpenter wrote: >such person, quoted from Patent Rolls for 1359. > >"The like to William de Shareshull, William de Thorpe, Robert de Thorpe, >Henry Grene, William de Notton and John Lovekyn, mayor of London, touching >certain satellites of the devil who plotting the death of Thomas de Setton, >one of the justices of the Bench retained by the king to be one of the >secret council, hired Thomas de Nesebit, chaplain, to kill him, which >Thomas, when Thomas de Seton was of the king's council, entered his dwelling >at Fleetstreet London, in friendly fashion and uttering fair words to him >there struck him in the belly with a knife and atrociously wounded him, so >that his life was despaired of." > >I think this and the previous material quoted re. Fleetsreet confirms that, >regardless of poor conditions in one area, and a bad reputation hundreds of >years later, Fleetstreet prior to John the Town Clerk was a residential area >for the wealthy and educated. > >Sincerely, >Bruce E. Carpenter Satellites? I'm not as well versed in this subject as you Bruce, and truely enjoy the messages between you and John. But I dare say the word "Satellites" is a recent addition to the English language. Or am I missing out on something? Charlie

A Richard carpenter was found living in Fleetsreet in London as a possible father of Town Clerk John Carpenter. Gill carpenter quoted good 14th century material that suggested the area was not suitable for quality habitation. The area in question was the Fleet Prison, which upon further investigation was actually located on an island in the Fleet River. Fleetstreet itself was a long road that ran parallel to the Thames River. Thus the Fleet River could have only affected a small area of the Fleetsreet. In addition I quoted material that showed extremely influentual people living in Fleetsreet in the 1300s. Here is an additional such person, quoted from Patent Rolls for 1359. "The like to William de Shareshull, William de Thorpe, Robert de Thorpe, Henry Grene, William de Notton and John Lovekyn, mayor of London, touching certain satellites of the devil who plotting the death of Thomas de Setton, one of the justices of the Bench retained by the king to be one of the secret council, hired Thomas de Nesebit, chaplain, to kill him, which Thomas, when Thomas de Seton was of the king's council, entered his dwelling at Fleetstreet London, in friendly fashion and uttering fair words to him there struck him in the belly with a knife and atrociously wounded him, so that his life was despaired of." I think this and the previous material quoted re. Fleetsreet confirms that, regardless of poor conditions in one area, and a bad reputation hundreds of years later, Fleetstreet prior to John the Town Clerk was a residential area for the wealthy and educated. Sincerely, Bruce E. Carpenter

While the chief export item from medieval England was wool, an extremely important import item was wine from Poitou and Flanders. Indeed, wool was sold and the profits used to import important wares the other way. The Carpenters in medieval London were naturally directly involved with this important trade. As you will see they sold their wines to the royal household itself. But first in order to appreciate the importance of this commodity trade and the implications it had for the politics of the city of London specifically, allow me to quote from Longman’s The Life and Times of Edward lll, London, 1869, vol. 1, p. 4. “Merchants became so rich, and were held in such high esteem, that in the year 1363, one Picard, Mayor of London, entertained Edward the Third, the Black Prince, and the King of France, Scotland and Cyprus, with many nobility, in London at his house in the Vintry, where the foreign wine merchants carried on the their business.” The most conspicuous Carpenter wine merchants were the previously mentioned Edward Carpenter and a son Robert, probably one of the wealthiest families in London of the 1300s. In the following 1311 Fine Rolls document we can glimpse the scale of Carpenter wine transactions. “Grant to the following merchant vintners of the issue of the custom of wools and woolfells in the port of Boston. Robert le Carpenter of 58 l. for 14 tuns.” The connection with the royal household can be appreciated in this next Patent Rolls quotation from 1311. “Indemnity for the mayor, aldermen and communality of the city of London against William Arnaldi of Portan, Gerald de Cannet, Robert le Carpenter, Peter Bernadi of Bauet (or Garnet), Raymond de Maas, Peter de Cabaus, Peter Arnaldi of Tesse, Bernard de la Mote, John Hereman, Peter Blaunke and Bernard de la Denise, to whom they have given a bond for 870 L. 5s. 10d. for 205 casks and one pipe of wine purchased for the king’s use.”

This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------6F35B24F99A480FA82CDA07F Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear Claudia, Attached is what I have on the Morton descendancy line. The Carpenters after about 1440 are fairly clear of who was whom. The current discussion involves the time period of about 1250 to about 1400 AD. I hope you find the data enjoyable! John R. Carpenter La Mesa, CA USA William Cridland wrote: > > Dear Bruce and John, > > I have enjoyed your exchanges regarding the early English ancestry > of the Carpenters, and have tried to "boil it down" a bit in order to > quote you. Is it correct to conclude that much of the English ancestry > is unproven, and that the only positively known ancestors of the > immigrants here are Alexander /A Carpenter and Priscilla (Dillon), > William /B Carpenter and Abigail (_____), and James /C Carpenter, > all of Wrington, Somerset? > > I am descended from Juliana /1 Carpenter, b.ca.1503; m. 23 July 1612, > Leyden, Holland (1)George MORTON, as his 2nd w., and from her sister, > Priscilla /1, bp.23 Sept. 1598, d. 28 Dec. 1689, who m. (2)John COOPER, > 27 Nov.1634. > > Claudia Cridland --------------6F35B24F99A480FA82CDA07F Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1; name="36526d.txt" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Disposition: inline; filename="36526d.txt" Descendants of Nicholas MORTON-36526 First Generation 1. Nicholas MORTON-36526 was born 1452 in England. 32 Nicholas MORTON, 12549. Born abt 1452 in , , England. Nicholas died ?= . Research: "E-Mail about Morton/Markam Families from LDS-FHC", Mrs. Victoria "Vicky" E. Barnette. 9SMG-CQ Nicholas married Alice WENTWORTH, 12550. They had one child: 16 i. Charles, 12547 (~1478-1531). Nicholas married (1-MRIN:13103) Alice WENTWORTH-36527, daughter of Thomas= WENTWORTH-36533 (MRIN:13107) in England. Alice was born about 1455 in En= gland. 33 Alice WENTWORTH, 12550. Born abt 1455 in , , England. Alice died ? . = Research: "E-Mail about Morton/Markam Families from LDS-FHC", Mrs. Victoria "Vicky" E. Barnette. 9SMG-DW. Nicholas and Alice had the following children: + 2 M i. Charles MORTON-36522 was born about 1478 and died 1531. Second Generation 2. Charles MORTON-36522 was born about 1478 in Bawtry, York, England. He = died 1531 in Bawtry, York, England. 16 Charles MORTON, 12547. Born abt 1478 in of Bawtry, Yorkshire, England.= Charles died in of Bawtry, Yorkshire, England in 1531; he was 53. Research: "E-Mail about Morton/Markam Families from LDS-FHC", Mrs. Victoria "Vicky" E. Barnette. 9SMF-V6 b/place; dd/place; m.date/place abt 1503 when Charles was 25, he married Maud DALLISON, 12548, in of L, E= ngland. They had one child: 8 i. Robert, 12515 (~1497-~1575). Charles married (1-MRIN:13101) Maud DALLISON-36523, daughter of William D= ALLISON-36528 (MRIN:13104) in England. Maud was born about 1482 in Lancas= ter, England. 17 Maud DALLISON, 12548. Born ca 1482 in of L, England. Maud died ? . Research: "E-Mail about Morton/Markam Families from LDS-FHC", Mrs. Victoria "Vicky" E. Barnette. 9SMF-WC. Charles and Maud had the following children: + 3 M i. Robert MORTON-36520 was born about 1497 and died about 1575. Third Generation 3. Robert MORTON-36520 was born about 1497 in Bawtry, York, England. He d= ied about 1575 in Bantry, Nottingham, England. 6 John BOWN, 12514. Born abt 1526 in , , England. John died ? in , , E= ngland. Child: 3 i. Catherine, 12330 (~1556-?) 8 Robert MORTON, 12515. Born abt 1497 in Bawtry, Yorkshire, England. Robe= rt died in Bantry, Nottingham, England abt 1575; he was 78. Research: SOUTHER.AHN ahnentafel # 69616 MORTON.GED file: John K. Allen. George Morton and some of his descendants= ; b 1530 http://www.tiac.net/users/pmcbride/rfc/gw40.htm#I4775 b abt 1504 8WJW-CD = says b. 1505; m./place abt 1525 when Robert was 28, he married Alice MARKHAM, 12516, in of Cotha= m, Yorkshire, England. They had one child: 4 i. Anthony, 12328 (~1521-?) Robert married (1-MRIN:13100) Alice MARKHAM-36521, daughter of John MARKH= AM Sir-36524 and Alice SKIPWORTH-36525 (MRIN:13102) in England. Alice was= born about 1499 in Colham, Nottingham, England. She died in England. 9 Alice MARKHAM, 12516. Born abt 1499 in Colham, Nottingham, England. Ali= ce died ? in , , England. Research: http://www.tiac.net/users/pmcbride/rfc/gw37.htm#I4776 b abt 15= 02 8WJW-DK says b. 1502. Robert and Alice had the following children: + 4 M i. Anthony MORTON-28795 was born about 1521/1523. Fourth Generation 4. Anthony MORTON-28795 was born about 1521/1523 in York, England. He die= d in Bawtry, York, England. 4 Anthony MORTON, 12328. Born abt 1521/1523 in , York, England. Anthony = died ? in Bawtry, York, England? Research: SOUTHER.AHN ahnentafel # 34808 MORTON.GED file: "A fine is preserved, dated Trinity 1577 wherein William= Bradfurthe is plaintiff and Anthony Morton and Mary, his wife, are defor= ciants, and lands at Austerfield and Bawtry are at issue (Yorks Fines). N= EHGR 111:68. "Anthony Morton wasted the Morton Estate" Anonymous. "Early = History of the Morton Family: reprinted from an ancient book" 1931. University of Cambridge, England John K. Allen. George Morton and some of his descendants. MORTON.GED b 1550, b place & burial http://www.tiac.net/users/pmcbride/rf= c/gw40.htm#I4772 b 1521 8418-HB b. 1521 Of, Bawtry,Y, England abt 1559 when Anthony was 38, he married ? PLUMPTON, 12329, in Bawtry, Yo= rk, England. They had one child: 2 i. George, 12327 (1553-?). Anthony married (1-MRIN:13099) PLUMPTON-36519 in England. PLUMPTON was bo= rn about 1538 in of, Bawtry, York, England. 5 ? PLUMPTON, 12329. Born ca 1538 in of Bawtry, York, England. ? died ? .= Research: MORTON.GED first name http://www.tiac.net/users/pmcbride/rfc/gw44.htm#I4773 surname & b (no fir= st name) 9SMF-MO. Anthony and PLUMPTON had the following children: + 5 M i. George MORTON-28985 was born 1553. Fifth Generation 5. George MORTON-28985 was born 1553 in Bantry, Nottingham, England. He d= ied in England. 2 George MORTON, 12327. Born in 1553 in Bantry, Nottingham, England. Geor= ge died ? in , , England. Research: [note by Paul McBride]: Info on this generation is from Ernie = =3D46rey <nanern@acs.bu.edu> "The April, 1994, issue of Yankee Magazine h= ad a genealogical query from William Meacham, 810 King James St. SW, Roan= oke, VA 24014-1316, requesting info/descendants George and Julianna Carpe= nter Morton. He responded to my letter with an extensive tree that includ= ed much of the information that you had in your pages. He included, howev= er another George Morton between Anthony and George Morton. He did not ha= ve dates, but did supply wife's name as Catherine Boun." SOUTHER.AHN ahnentafel # 17404 originally listed here (from ?) as Andrew Morton of Scrooby, Nottinghamsh= ire, England BIRTH: MORTON.GED file 1570 at Bawtry?, Yorkshire MORTON.GED file: "a wealthy Catholic gentleman living near Bawtry or Harw= orth.. ." Dictionary of American Biography Volume VII. BIRT SOUR NEHGR 111:68 John K. Allen. George Morton and some of his descendants. In 1577 when George was 24, he married Catherine BOUN OR BOWN, 12330. They had one child: 1 i. George, 12318 (1585-1624) George married (1-MRIN:10395) Catherine BOUN OR BOWN-28921 in England. Ca= therine was born about 1556 in Bantry, Nottingham, England. was buried in= Bawtry, York, England. 3 Catherine BOUN OR BOWN, 12330. Born abt 1556 in Bantry, Nottingham, Eng= land. Catherine died ? in , , England. Buried in Bawtry, York, England.= Research: MORTON.GED lists her as Catherine Boun George and Catherine had the following children: + 6 M i. George MORTON-2150 was born 2 Aug 1585 and died Jun 1624. Sixth Generation 6. George MORTON-2150 was born 2 Aug 1585 in Harworth, Yorkshire, England= and was christened in Austerfield, Yorkshire, England. He died Jun 1624 = in Plymouth, Plymouth, MA and was buried Jun 1624 in Plymouth, Plymouth, = MA. A.F. # H0DQ-PD (B. ABT 1584) AND ID # GJHF-GB (ABT 1597) AND ID # GVM0-9R= (B. ABT 1584) ARE THE SAME PERSON. >From: cooper@amug.org E-Mail dated 5-29-98. George MORTON, 9G Grandfather, 12318 BIRTH: 2 Aug 1585, Harworth (near Scrooby), York, England DEATH: Jun 1624= , Plymouth, Plymouth, MA, age: 38 OCCUPATion: merchant EDUCATION: Considering his son's literary accomplishments, it is likely t= hat >George was literate as well. RELIGION: baptised Catholic; Puritan FATHER: George MORTON, 10G Grandfather, 12327 (1553-?) MOTHER: Catherine = BOUN OR BOWN, 10G Grandmother, 12330 (~1556-?) =3DAE4 Am. Gen 54 Jul p.15= 3; Dunham Gen. 159,160 =3DAE4 Clark, B.W. John Wood of RI and his early desc.; Hist. of Hanover;= Mitchell. Hist of Bridgewater; Devereux, Ruth S. Eddy Family in Amer. Boston: 1930. Holton. Winslow Family. 1877. V1 and 2.: New York and bio. = records. =3DAE8 BIRTH: "Ros's Pedigree", SOUTHER.AHN (ahnentafel # 8702) gives pla= ce=3D as Yorkshire; MORTON.GED b & chr at Austerfield, Yorkshire DEATH: "= Ros's Pedigree" & "Dict Am Biog"; GRANT.GED & SOUTHER.AHN files give June= 1624. BIOGRAPHY: fr. Harworth, near Scrooby 1623 in 'Anne' to Plymouth merchant= of well-to-do Roman Catholic family; "Dict Am Biog" probably son of Anth= ony Morton a wealthy Catholic gentleman living near Scrooby, Nottinghamsh= ire MORTON.GED includes notes: Immigration: Jun 1623, in Plymouth, MA (De= scendants of Levi Wood, 1755-1833, V. S.Pease, 1913). Occupation: Merchan= t. In the "Descendants of Levi Wood", George Morton is noted as a man of = affairs, and before joining the colony had acted for several years as fis= cal agent for the Pilgrims. It was he who chartered the ship "Mayflower" = which was the first to enter the service of transporting the Pilgrims fro= m England to America. "Abraham Sampson in America" tells how he remained = in Holland to promote the success of the colony by encouraging immigratio= n. The work for which he is most noted is his publication since known as = "Mourt's Relation". The Relation is composed of letters and journals from= the chief colonists in Plymouth. He traveled on the Ann, the third and l= ast ship to carry what are distinctively known as the forefathers. The An= n reached Plymouth early in June 1623. A year later, in June 1624, he die= d. Leon Clark Hills in History and Genealogy of the Mayflower Planters, a= grees on his reaching the colony in 1623, but places him on the Little Ja= mes, along with John Jenney and his family. There were only three familie= s and a single man noted as passengers on the Little James. The Little Ja= mes was intended to remain in the colony. In "Saints and Strangers", Geor= ge Morton is noted to be of a well-to-do- Roman Catholic family of Harwor= th, in Bawtry and near Scrooby. He is also said to have died impoverished= shortly after his arrival and his family was provided for by his brother= -in-law, William Bradford. "Descendants of Levi Wood" 1894. MARRIAGE: MORTON.GED 6 Jul 1612 GRANT.GED Came on the Ann in 1623 with wife. =3DAE11 GEORGE came in the Ann, 1623. He m. in Leyden, 1612, Julian, d. o= f Alexander Carpenter of Wrentham, England, and had Nathaniel, 1613; Pati= ence, 1615, m. John Faunce; John, 1616; Sarah, 1618, m. George Bonum; Eph= raim, 1623; and perhaps George, who had a wife Phebe =3DAE12 From: GardGe= n@aol.com Date: Sat, 29 Nov 1997. George married (1-MRIN:638) Julie or Julia Ann CARPENTER-675, daughter of= Alexander CARPENTER-97 and Priscilla OR Druscilla DILLEN-672 (MRIN:207) = on 23 Jul 1612 in Austerfield, Yorkshire, England. Julie was born 1583 in= Bath, Somerset, England. She died 19 Feb 1665 in Plymouth, Plymouth, MA.= She and her husband came to Plymouth on the ship "Ann" in July 1623 with = her sister who later married Gov. Bradford. !JULIA OR JULIE IN ID# H0BD-PS CHR 17 MAR 1584 WRINGTON, SOMERSET, Englan= d IN ID# 4JDT-28 CHR 7 MAR 1584 ST. JAMES, BATH, SOMERSET, England. BORN BATH, SOMERSET, England IN 1583 SEALED TO PARENTS 8 SEP 1911 MT ? = IN ID# GJH6-8B BRN LEYDEN, HOLLAND 1597 OR 1579 CURRENT COMBINATION SEEMS MOST LIKELY AT THIS TIME. Julie Ann - Found in IGI as born abt 1596 Leijden, Sh, Netherlands Batch = #: F519458, Sheet #: 22, Source Call #: 1553733 !Juliane - Found in IGI a= s born 1584 of Leyden, Zuid Holland, Netherlands Film #: 183524, Page #: = 1010, Ordinance #: 34935 (Bap 22 Sep 1928) !BAPTISIM: 17 Mar. 1584 per one record. !In the Carpenter Chronicles, Vol 26, (Sept. 1996) Alexander Carpenter ma= rried Priscilla Dillen and gives descendancy of Juelie Ann through the Mo= rton family to William Maxfield Meacham, Jr. of Roanoke, VA. (submitted Jan. 1992). George and Julie had the following children: 7 M i. Nathaniel MORTON-2143 was born 1613 in Leyden, South Holland, Ne= therlands. He died 27 Jun 1685 in Plymouth, Plymouth, MA and was buried 1= 685 in Plymouth, Plymouth, MA. AFN 4JDN-D9 (B. 1613) AND AFN GJHF-KT (B. 1616) ARE THE SAME PERSON. Author of the book "New England Memorial" and other fine works. 8 F ii. Patience MORTON-2144 was born 1615 in Of Leyden, South Holland,= Netherlands. She died in Plymouth, Plymouth, MA and was buried in Plymou= th, Plymouth, MA. AFN 3790-46 (B. 1615) AND AFN GJMQ-CG (B. 1618) ARE THE SAME PERSON. DEATH: DATE - 16 AUG 1691 (AGE 77) This individual has the following other parents in the Ancestral File: George /MORTON/ (AFN:GJHF-GB) and Julia Ann /CARPENTER/ (AFN:GJH6-8B)= 9 M iii. John MORTON-2145 was born 1616 in Leyden, S.H., Netherlands, H= olland. He died 3 Oct 1673 in Plymouth, MA and was buried Oct 1673 in Ply= mouth, MA. !AFN 4JDW-8K (B. 1616) AND AFN GJHF-HH (B. ABT 1607) ARE THE SAME PERSON.= AS IS AFN GKZ6-30 (B. 1612) AS IS AFN GJMQ-DM (B. 1620) BIRTH: PLACE - Leyden S.H. Neth. 10 F iv. Sarah MORTON-2146 was born 1618 in Leyden, S.H., Netherlands. = She died 25 Aug 1691 in MA. BIRTH: PLACE - Leyden S.H. Neth. + 11 M v. Ephraim MORTON-2147 was born 1623 and died 7 Sep 1693. 12 M vi. George MORTON-2148 was born 1625 in Plymouth, Plymouth, MA and= was christened 18 Feb 1598. He died Jun 1620/1624 in Plymouth, Plymouth,= MA. This individual has the following other parents in the Ancestral File: George /MORTON/ (AFN:8418-F0) and Catherine /BOWN/ (AFN:8418-G5) Seventh Generation 11. Ephraim MORTON-2147 was born 1623 in on the ship, Ann, enroute to, Ne= w England. He died 7 Sep 1693 in Plymouth, Plymouth, MA. Ephraim married (1-MRIN:8276) Ann COOPER-22999 on 18 Nov 1644 in Plymouth= , Plymouth, MA. Ann was born about 1624 in MA. She died Sep 1691 in Plymo= uth, Plymouth, MA. They had the following children: 13 M i. Eleazer MORTON-23000 was born 1659 in Plymouth, Plymouth, MA. !In the Carpenter Chronicles, Vol 26, (Sept. 1996) Gives more of this lin= e down through the Morton family to William Maxfield Meacham, Jr. of Roan= oke, VA. (submitted Jan. 1992). Eleazer married (1-MRIN:8277) Rebecca Dawes MARSHALL-23001 on 11 Apr 1691= in Boston, MA. Rebecca was born about 1659 in MA. =0CIndex Name ID Generation BOUN OR BOWN, Catherine 5S 5 CARPENTER, Julie or Julia Ann 6S 6 COOPER, Ann 11S 7 DALLISON, Maud 2S 2 MARKHAM, Alice 3S 3 MARSHALL, Rebecca Dawes

Dear Robin, The data below is from the main Carpenter Data base. The following Bennetts married Carpenters: INDIVIDUAL DATA RIN:592 - ----------------------------------------------------- Name:Priscilla BENNETT Sex:F ID No:GQ60-80 Birth: 5 Oct 1631 Place:Of Weymouth,,,England Chr: Place: Marr: 5 Oct 1651 Spouse:William CARPENTER 4th-103 Marr: Spouse: Marr: Spouse: Death:20 Oct 1663 Place:Rehoboth,Bristol,MA Burial: Place: Father:William BENNETT-14691 Mother: Notes ------------------------------------------------------ !Died the day her son Benjamin was born. !In some records her father is listed as Edward Bennett of Rehoboth who may have been the brother of William Bennett of Sway. end INDIVIDUAL DATA RIN:8215 - ----------------------------------------------------- Name:Jemima BENNETT Sex:F ID No:CQLC-4X Birth:Abt 1785 Place: Chr: Place: Marr:28 Sep 1805 Spouse:Joseph CARPENTER-8214 Marr: Spouse: Marr: Spouse: Death: Place: Burial: Place: Fther: Mother: Notes ----------------------------------------------------- end INDIVIDUAL DATA RIN:11649 - ------------------------------------------------------- Name:Jean Irene BENNETT Sex:F ID No: Birth:Abt 1910 Place: Chr: Place: Marr: 2 Aug 1952 Spouse:Roland Faris CARPENTER-11644 Marr: Spouse: Marr: Spouse: Death:Aft 1999 Place:Winter Park,,FL Burial: Place: Father: Mother: Notes ---------------------------------------------- !Living in Winter Park,,FL in 1966. end INDIVIDUAL DATA RIN:15248 - ------------------------------------------------ Name:Maria BENNETT Sex:F ID No: Birth:Abt 1794 Place:,,NY Chr: Place: Marr: Spouse:Zachary CARPENTER-15216 Marr: Spouse: Marr: Spouse: Death: Place: Burial: Place: Father: Mother: Notes ------------------------------------------ !Listed as born in NY, but married and lived in MA? end INDIVIDUAL DATA RIN:15250 - ---------------------------------------------------- Name:Moses BENNETT Sex:M ID No: Birth:Abt 1802 Place: Chr: Place: Marr: Spouse:Esther CARPENTER-15218 Marr: Spouse: Marr: Spouse: Death: Place: Burial: Place: Father: Mother: Notes ---------------------------------------------- !He was the brother of Maria Bennett, wife of his brother Zacary. They lived in Minnesota. They had 15 children. end (Note Esther was born in VT.) INDIVIDUAL DATA RIN:17468 - -------------------------------------------- Name:Alvira BENNETT Sex:F ID No: Birth:Abt 1810 Place:,,NY Chr: Place: Marr: Spouse:Sylvanus CARPENTER-17466 Marr: Spouse: Marr: Spouse: Death: Place: Burial: Place: Father: Mother: Notes ---------------------------------------- !Alvira was the second wife of Sylvanus Carpenter. end INDIVIDUAL DATA RIN:21183 - ------------------------------------------------ Name:Cornelia BENNETT Sex:F ID No: Birth:Abt 1811 Place:,,NY Chr: Place: Marr: 1832 Spouse:William G. CARPENTER-21182 Marr: Spouse: Marr: Spouse: Death: Place: Burial: Place: Father: Mother: Notes -------------------------------------------------- end INDIVIDUAL DATA RIN:22632 - --------------------------------------------------- Name:BENNETT Sex:M ID No: Birth:Abt 1755 Place:,,NY Chr: Place: Marr:Abt 1774 Spouse:Elizabeth CARPENTER-22628 Marr: Spouse: Marr: Spouse: Death: Place: Burial: Place: Father: Mother: Notes --------------------------------------------------------- end INDIVIDUAL DATA RIN:22718 - ----------------------------------------------- Name:Abigail BENNETT Sex:F ID No: Birth:Abt 1612 Place:of,,Wiltshire,England Chr: Place: Marr:Bef 1630 Spouse:Ralph CARPENTER-14692 Marr: Spouse: Marr: Spouse: Death: Place: Burial: Place: Father:William BENNETT-14691 Mother: Notes ------------------------------------------------- !NAME: First name not known. It was probably Abigail. end INDIVIDUAL DATA RIN:35587 - ------------------------------------------------- Name:Hannah BENNETT Sex:F ID No: Birth:Abt 1795 Place:of,,RI Chr: Place: Marr: 7 Dec 1840 Spouse:John CARPENTER-35581 Marr: Spouse: Marr: Spouse: Death: Place: Burial: Place: Father: Mother: Notes ----------------------------------------------- end INDIVIDUAL DATA RIN:36139 - ------------------------------------------------------- Name:Harriet BENNETT Sex:F ID No: Birth:Abt 1827 Place:,,OH Chr: Place: Marr:30 Aug 1848 Spouse:Charles CARPENTER-36138 Marr: Spouse: Marr: Spouse: Death: Place: Burial: Place: Father: Mother: Notes ---------------------------------------------- end INDIVIDUAL DATA RIN:43880 - ------------------------------------------------------ Name:John BENNETT Sex:M ID No: Birth:Abt 1732 Place:,,CT Chr: Place: Marr: 6 Dec 1753 Spouse:Mary CARPENTER-43879 Marr: Spouse: Marr: Spouse: Death: Place: Burial: Place: Father: Mother: Notes -------------------------------------------------- end INDIVIDUAL DATA RIN:47626 - -------------------------------------------------- Name:Lucy BENNETT Sex:F ID No: Birth: 1792 Place:of,,RI Chr: Place: Marr:Abt 1810 Spouse:Benjamin CARPENTER-47616 Marr: Spouse: Marr: Spouse: Death:12 Oct 1838 Place: Burial: Place: Father: Mother: Notes --------------------------------------------- end Other noteables: INDIVIDUAL DATA RIN:22517 - -------------------------------------------------- Name:Issac BENNETT Sex:M ID No: Birth:Abt 1779 Place:,Dutchess,NY Chr: Place: Marr: 6 Mar 1803 Spouse:Anna LOSEE-22512 Marr: Spouse: Marr: Spouse: Death: Place: Burial: Place: Father:Alden BENNETT-22518 Mother:Elizabeth VAIL-22519 Notes------------------------------------------- !His family was of Dutchess county and removed to North Harpersfield. end INDIVIDUAL DATA RIN:16426 - -------------------------------------------- Name:Irene Daun BENNETT Sex:F ID No: Birth: 8 Dec 1911 Place:Salem,Washtenaw,MI Chr: Place: Marr:10 Dec 1930(div) Spouse:Kenneth Samuel PROCTOR-16327 Marr: Spouse: Marr: Spouse: Death: Place: Burial: Place: Father: Mother: Notes ------------------------------------------- !Irene was always a very nice aunt, and I always enjoyed going up to their place. Their children, Kenney and Marjorie were very close in age to me, (Ken Jr. was born in March 1933 also.) They lived on a farm and had a large wild highbush blueberry swamp on it. We went up there every year when the blueberries were ripe and picked a lot of them. We also went up at least once a year to go rabbit hunting as there were a lot of them in the swamp and adjacent wooded areas. Irene divorced Kenneth Proctor on the 18 of May 1964 after a long period of martial problems. Irene became very interested in genealogy and helped me some. end INDIVIDUAL DATA RIN:14691 - --------------------------------------------------- Name:William BENNETT Sex:M ID No: Birth:Abt 1560 Place:of Sway & Bodre,Hampshire,,England Chr: Place: Marr: Spouse:Unknown Marr: Spouse: Marr: Spouse: Death: Place: Burial:20 Aug 1638 Place: Father:BENNETT-27673 Mother: Notes --------------------------------------------------- !Does anyone have the will of William Bennett of Sway? It supposedly lists Ralph Carpenter and his wife, a daughter of this William Bennett, Priscilla who is another daughter and her husband William Carpenter. 1/97. end INDIVIDUAL DATA RIN:1346 - ------------------------------------------------ Name:Elizabeth BENNETT Sex:F ID No: Birth:Abt 1807 Place:Sandyston,,NJ Chr: Place: Marr:19 Feb 1839 Spouse:Abraham OR Abram ROSENCRANS-1325 Marr: Spouse: Marr: Spouse: Death:25 Feb 1900 Place:PawPaw,,IL Burial: Place: Father: Mother: Notes ----------------------------------------------- end INDIVIDUAL DATA RIN:1279 - --------------------------------------------------- Name:Polly BENNETT Sex:F ID No: Birth: 2 Jul 1810 Place:Tyrone,,NY Chr: Place: Marr: 2 Aug 1831 Spouse:Garrett ROSENKRANS-1274 Marr: Spouse: Marr: Spouse: Death:Abt 1900 Place:Howell,,MI Burial: Place: Father: Mother: Notes ------------------------------------------------------ end I hope this helps. John R. Carpenter La Mesa, CA Robin Carpenter wrote: > > John; In a recent exchange you (or someone writing to you) mentioned > Carpenter-Bennett family connection. I don't know of such conneciton of my > own...but there are a number of Bennet and Bennett witnesses to Carpenter > Wills --and vice versa--in Orange County NY in the 1700s. So I wonder if > you know of such marriages around that time and place. > Robin

Dear Bruce, William Henry Playfair (1759-1823)- "British Antiquities" is available to researchers at the British Library in London and the Edinburgh University in Scotland. It was a very limited edition book and a single copy is worth about $3,000.00 in fair condition. The Carpenter data starts in volume One (1) on page S-34. It was published mainly for Nobility. William Playfair was noted for his charts and attention to detail. His family had many notables in Economics, Science and Mathmatics. Amos Bugbee Carpenter, as part of the Carpenter Family Association did the compling for the Carpenter Memorial. John P. Jaynes, attorney of New York, as part of the same association (under the direction of Amos B. Carpenter) went to England for several months for research. John P. Jaynes had a large experience in looking up records and estates in the United States and Europe. See page 826 of the Carpenter Memorial (A Genealogical History of the Rehoboth Branch of the Carpenter Family in America) published in 1898 by Amos B. Carpenter. This appendix gives more data than opening pages of the Carpenter Memorial. It also cites letters and addtional sources. The European Royalty titles have been giving me a pain. However, I have found Godefroy (Gottfried, Gotfry, etc) was also known as John I Count of Hainaut (Hainault). Below he is cited as John of Avesnes. SUBJECT: , John of Avesnes, Count of Hainaut Acceded: APR 1218 Died: 24 DEC 1257 Notes: See Europisch Stammtafeln Bund II tafel 5. Father: , Burchard of Avesnes (or Bouchard I) Mother: , Margaret I of Flanders, Countess of Flanders Married SEP 1246 to , Aleidis of Holland, Countess of Holland Child 1: , John II of Hainaut, Count of Hainault&Holland MOTHER OF ABOVE: , Margaret I of Flanders, Countess of Flanders Acceded: 1244 Died: 1280 Notes: Countess of Hainault. Father: , Baldwin IX of Flanders, Count of Flanders Mother: , Mary Married to , William of Dampierre Child 1: , Guy of Dampierre, Count of Flanders Married to , Burchard of Avesnes Child 2: , John of Avesnes, Count of Hainaut SEE: http://www.dcs.hull.ac.uk/cgi-bin/gedlkup/n=royal?royal07798 I am human and I make mistakes. I also admit them. I try to keep an open mind and be open to constructive critisim. The early part of the Carpenter Ancestry has been open to change from day one. I encourage you to be less biased. If the Carpenter Family is related to a "mass jew killer," so be it. Let us learn from that lesson and NEVER EVER let it happen again. Every family has its black sheep. I also encourage you to keep the data coming in. You provide great insight in putting the Carpenter Family puzzle together. When you were in Japan, you sent me data on: 99-02-09 From: carp@tezukayama-u.ac.jp (Bruce Carpenter) John: Below is a bibliography of Baudouin d'Avesnes. Yours, Bruce Carpenter. La chronique de Baudouin d'Avesnes Notice extraite du repertoire The Narrative Sources from the Southern Low Countries, 600-1500. That book is one of the few I have been able to get my hands on. Unfortunately it deals mainly with his descendants and his exploits. However as much as I was able to tell (with my interpreter) his father's title was John of Hainaut. Further searches led to the above data found on the UK web. Facts and variables in the view of the times, my friend. Yours, John R. Carpenter La Mesa, CA USA Bruce E. Carpenter wrote: > > John: > I appreciate your comments as always. In respect to Playfairs, it is not > what is called a primary source. In other words we only have hearsay > evidence and not a real historical document. Who has ever seen 1810 > Plaiyfairs? > I'll bet Amos Carpenter got his information by letter from England and never > saw the book. In addition I suspect the information in Playfairs came via > Life of the Late Right Honourable George, Lord Carpenter. A dubious source > for certain. The facts, the facts John!!! Another problem I have is your > persistant insistance that Godefroy de Carpentier married Countess Aleida. > Go back and recheck the whole matter. You have the wrong husband. > Yours, > Bruce Carpenter > > -----Original Message----- > From: John Carpenter <jrcrin001@home.com> > To: Bruce E. Carpenter <carp@whidbey.com> > Cc: CARPENTER-L@rootsweb.com <CARPENTER-L@rootsweb.com>; Tony Carpenter > <chipps@chipps.screaming.net>; Terry Lee Carpenter <diluvius@flash.net>; > Richard L. Carpenter <adoptahighway1@home.com>; Richard (Rich) W. Carpenter > <adoptahighway@home.com>; John L. Carpenter <familysearcher@mailcity.com>; > Chuck Carpenter <chuck@mlsphotos.com> > Date: Thursday, July 29, 1999 10:31 AM > Subject: Re: The 1303 John Carpenter Myth, no. 1???? > > >Dear Bruce, > > > >JOHN CARPENTER was a member of the English Parliament in 1323 for the > >borough of Leskard in Cornwall, as was 2 years afterwards a Stephen > >Carpenter for Crediton in the county of Devon (ie in 1325). A Henry > >Carpenter served in 1418, for the town of Derby. Per Playfairs British > >Antiquities, London 1810. > > > >I guess this was not a name pulled out of a hat. Check it out your > >self. Sources were available to Amos B. Carpenter. He cites them > >starting on page one (1) of his work. > > > >As I pointed out before, there is other definitions to be used from the > >dictionaries based on the use at that period in time. Chaundeler can be > >a broker or trader (of gold, wool etc.) especially associated with the > >shipping trade. It has been proven that the French & English Carpenters > >were related and involved in such trading. > > > >The Carpenters of this time were well educated and well to do because > >the were nobles. The ancestry in the French line indicates this. > > > >You provided additional proof that ... "John's non-English origins are > >betrayed by the French version of his name in the original document. The > >quotation is extremely brief, stating name and occupation. It is from > >the Calendar of Patent Rolls, 1272-128l. It is precisely dated May 12, > >1273 under the heading "Licenses to Export Wool" and reads "Jean le > >Carpenter, merchant". From an E-Mail message dated 13 July 1999 By Bruce > >E. Carpenter. (Where to export - France!) > > > >Jean Le Carpentier (b. abt 1250)- Lord of Daniel et Avesnes les Aubert, > >Du Nord, France had a powerful father... Godefroy de Carpentier, Sire > >de Daniel and d'Avesnes-les-Obert ... who married Aleida Countess > >Holland. One of Godefroy's great grandchildren (Philippa) married on 24 > >Jan 1327 the newly crowned King Edward the Third of England. > >See: GENEALOGY OF THE DE CARPENTIER FAMILY OF HOLLAND BY EDWIN JAQUETT > >SELLERS, printed in PHILADELPHIA, PA in 1909. AND La chronique de > >Baudouin d'Avesnes Notice extraite du repertoire The Narrative Sources > >from the Southern Low Countries, 600-1500. See also: Longman, W., > >History of the Life and Times of Edward the Third, 2 vols. (1869; > >repr. 1979) MacKinnon, James, History of Edward the Third: 1327-1377 > >(1900; repr. 1974). Packe, M., King Edward III (1983). > > > >Later Bruce E. Carpenter wrote (27 July 1999): > >Jean le Carpenter was among a select group given the rights to export > >wool in 1273. Jean had to be a true `bigwig' with money going to all > >the right places, as had to be Sir John Carpenter with all his lands > >held from King Edward lll and consort Queen Philippa. Money and power! > >Money and power! History can be a better tool than strict genealogy. > > > >Even though in 1272 Edward the First became King of England with Eleanor > >of Castile, I agree that Jean le Carpentier had to be a 'bigwig' as the > >later Sir John Carpenter who held many lands (the same lands noted in > >the Domesday Book of 1097 by the way) from King Edward the Third and his > >wife, Queen Phillipa. Money and Power AND MIGHT I ADD FAMILY. > > > >Jean le Carpentier (b. abt 1303/1305 at de Grand Pont,Du Nord,France - > >He was a noble)or Sir John Carpenter (as he was known in England) and > >Queen Phillipa were SECOND COUSINS. Marriages for the King of England > >was arranged more for political reasons that anything else. History can > >be a better tool than strict genealogy by understanding how things > >worked AT THOSE TIMES. > > > >Has there been a document found that states John or Jean Carpentier is > >the father of Richard? At this time, none has been found. > > > >Did Maurice exist? Yes - according to French records. Did he have a > >son named Jean (John in England)? Yes. Did Maurice go to England? Yes. > > > >In the Samuel Carpenter book of 1912, page 4 is: > >"The most ancient coat of arms of the Carpenters has for the device in > >the field three cross crosslets, which appear in many pedigrees filed in > >the Herald office in London. These lines were located chiefly in the > >counties of Hereford and Gloucester. The arms borne by the Carpenters of > >Homme in Herefordshire show the three cross crosslets, and the same > >appears in a lineage of several generations commencing about 1300 with a > >Maurice Carpenter, or Carpender, Gent., in the County of Gloucester, and > >reported in the Herald Visitation in that county. These arms were also > >borne by the Earls of Tyrconnel, whose descent was through the > >Carpenters of Homme. Burke says that this family was of great antiquity > >in Herefordshire." > > > >If the line of Richard (b. abt 1335), John the elder(b. abt 1399)- > >(brother to John the younger), John the younger (b. abt 1410) to William > >of Homme (b. 1440) is true and the above statement from the Herald > >Visitation is true ... then it is reasonable to assume that a child of > >Maurice was the father of Richard. > > > >Since only two of Maurice's children have been found in the English > >Records, those being for; John OR Jean CARPENTIER (b. abt 1303) and for > >a Renaud OR Richard CARPENTIER (b. abt 1307). It is reasonable to assume > >that one of these two continued the line to be the father of Richard (b. > >abt 1335). > > > >Is there absolute proof? - NO. Is it a myth? - No because those people > >did exist historicaly. Is it the best guess? - Probably based on the > >knowledge we have at this time. > > > >So I say, let us NOT be rid of this venerable, but quite annoying best > >guess. > > > >Sincerely, > > > >John R. Carpenter > >La Mesa, CA USA > > > >Bruce E. Carpenter wrote: > >> > >> The traditional history of the Carpenter family from a John Carpenter who > >> served in parliament for Leskard in Cornwall in the year 1323 began with > >> Amos Bugsbee Carpenter in the late 1800s. In the late 1800s English > >> historical records were still in manuscript and impossible to access. The > >> script they were written in was difficult to read. They were unindexed > etc., > >> etc. > >> The 1323 John Carpenter was just a named fished out the pile. Now the > great > >> number of documents unavailable to Amos Carpenter are now fully > accessible > >> to us, and while respecting the efforts of Amos Carpenter, we can gain a > >> much clearer understanding of 14th century Carpenter history. > >> > >> Previous I had shown that Town Clerk John’s family was too powerful > >> economically to have come from a candle-maker’s family. There must have > been > >> another, and a richer, Richard Carpenter in London. I discovered another > >> Richard in the prosperous neighborhood of Fleetstreet. This Richard > >> naturally had no trade associated with his name. Likewise I found a > Robert > >> Carpenter in nearby Surrey, on the Thames River, with a suspicious > proximity > >> to ships and trade. This Robert was a ‘clerk’ like the Town Clerk John > >> himself. Clearly there was a Carpenter family of wealth and influence > >> existing in and around London in the later half of the 14th century. What > >> about the early 14th century? > >> > >> In the early 14th century documents I discovered two quite remarkable > >> Carpenter groups. One was centered about a Sir John Carpenter, a knight. > Sir > >> John had extensive land holdings, and most of the documents I discovered > >> relating to him were will-related, after his demise. The exact residence > of > >> Sir John was never revealed, although it was clear he had good property > in > >> Berks, Herts and probably Oxfordshire and Wilts. He probably lived in all > >> those places. It is very tempting to equate this Sir John with the > >> traditional Leskard, Cornwall John. They are exactly contemporaneous. The > >> problem with with a Leskard, Cornwall John Carpenter as a progenitor of > the > >> London Carpenters, was that Cornwall was so far from London, literally > the > >> sticks. Who was this Cornwall Sir John Carpenter? I could find no > reference > >> to him, while I found many references to a Sir John Carpenter with land > next > >> to London. In addition this newly discovered John had no son Richard at > the > >> time of his death, which was before and around 1339. Perhaps the two > Johns > >> were identical and a son Richard died well before his father. Later > >> researchers appointed him as father of Town Clerk John. It is certain > from > >> the documents that Sir John Carpenter had no male heirs at the time of > his > >> death, all his worldly holdings passing to related women or his brother. > >> Could there have been two Sir John Carpenters in parliament in the early > >> 1300s? Doubtful I think. Can anyone find a real reference to a Sir John > >> Carpenter with a son Richard, a reference that is not just hearsay or IGI > >> mythology? > >> If not, let us be rid of this venerable, but quite annoying myth. > >> > >> Sincerely, > >> Bruce E. Carpenter > > > >

Gill: My data on John Carpenter also clearly stipulated that Sir John Carpenter had a father John. Does this mean the 1303 John and the 1323 John were father and son? The revealation that the 1323 John had himself two John sons reminded me of a document I found that might be them. It is somewhat entertaining. From the Patent Rolls for May 6, 1360 at Woodstock. “On complaint by John by John, abbot of Gerondon, that….John le Carpenter and John his brother, William Smyth of Gerondon and others, broke his close, gates, chests, doors and windows of his house at Gerondon co. Leicester, imprisoned him, carried away his goods and fished in his stews there and carried away fish.” Sincerely, Bruce E. Carpenter

Gill: After having discovered a serious Carpenter involvement with Cinque Ports politics, I had to reconsider what I said about 'chaundler' Richard, as I mentioned. Before we totally discard Fleetsreet for poor conditions in and a bit prior to Dicken's day, please note the following from the Close Rolls of 1377. "King Richard delivered to the bishop of St. Davids the chancellor of his great seal for the ruling of England enclosed in a purse, first taking of him an oath truly to perform his office, and holding him to that which pertains thereto; and the same day in his chapel at his inn in Fleetstreet London the chancellor opened the purse, drew out te seal, and caused divers letters patent concerning divers officers of the realm to be there sealed." Thus we can see the whole realm of England being ruled from Fleetstreet in 1377, at the time of a Richard Carpenter who also lived there. Great events for a filthy ditch. The John Carpenter seems the same individual as the John I wrote about. I was misled in thinking he had no male hiers, but on rereading the documents re. his brother Thomas, they were concerned with property he would inherit from John's daughter. This did not preclude John from having male heirs. One problem still exists. My documents mention John from Stautnon St John, while yours have a different St John. Perhaps you could clear that up. Sincerely, Bruce Carpenter

Rosemary Bachelor sold her publication The Epistle to Bette Toppe Now Carpenter Chronicles www.cet.com/~toppline/

Dear Bruce and John, I have enjoyed your exchanges regarding the early English ancestry of the Carpenters, and have tried to "boil it down" a bit in order to quote you. Is it correct to conclude that much of the English ancestry is unproven, and that the only positively known ancestors of the immigrants here are Alexander /A Carpenter and Priscilla (Dillon), William /B Carpenter and Abigail (_____), and James /C Carpenter, all of Wrington, Somerset? I am descended from Juliana /1 Carpenter, b.ca.1503; m. 23 July 1612, Leyden, Holland (1)George MORTON, as his 2nd w., and from her sister, Priscilla /1, bp.23 Sept. 1598, d. 28 Dec. 1689, who m. (2)John COOPER, 27 Nov.1634. Claudia Cridland

The Cinque Ports was a special institution in English history. They were special ports designated to furnish ships, and all associated with a navy, for the king. For our purposes one of the ports was Hastings, a port directly below London. One need just imagine for just a moment the opportunity for wealth accumulation such an arrangement entailed. Existing records for the Cinque Ports exist from the year 1432 and have been published in a handsome volume entitled The White and Black Books of the Cinque Ports, London, 1966. The Carpenter family was an important player in the Cinque Port affairs for Hastings. Three of them, a Thomas, a John and a Robert are prominent. I serious suspect a family tie to Town Clerk John here because such plum political appointments could not have been had without important family influence and connections. I also suspect that Carpenter connections to the Cinque Ports went well before our 1432. The material here will also reopen the Richard Carpenter ‘chaundeler’ discussion because an important meaning of ‘chaundeler’ was an individual who outfitted ships. Likewise you will recall the two names Thomas and Robert in cennection to a Kingston on Thames. Robert was listed there as a ‘clerk’. Surrey is directly below London and not far above Hastings. The John Carpenter here might be the son of John the Elder. Robert could be a close relative, while Thomas another close relative. The documents list the officials in charge in each area. Thomas is listed as a bailiff to Yarmouth from hastings for 1439; a deputy for Hastings in 1433, for 1436, 1437, bailiff for 1442, 1443, 1444. In July and September a John Carpenter jun. is listed. This could still be Town Clerk John despite the 1448 date. In July 1444 a John Carpynter as bailiff to Yarmouth from Hastings is listed. Could this be the older brother John’s son John? Again in 1448 John Carpynter is listed. John Carpenter is listed as deputy for 1442, in 1444 John is listed with Thomas. John for 1445. For 1448. For 1449. Robert Carpenter is listed as a Hastings deputy for 1480. Carpenters continue to have important positions in the subsequent decades as well. Sincerely, Bruce E. Carpenter

A recent exchange here referred to Patience_________, the wife of Samuel Carpenter of Goshen NY who died in 1652. Has anyone here even seen a hint, a lead, or a surmise about who this Patience was (or might have been)? Robin C.

John; In a recent exchange you (or someone writing to you) mentioned Carpenter-Bennett family connection. I don't know of such conneciton of my own...but there are a number of Bennet and Bennett witnesses to Carpenter Wills --and vice versa--in Orange County NY in the 1700s. So I wonder if you know of such marriages around that time and place. Robin

I am looking for any information on Benjamin CARPENTER (born ca 1770-80, died ca 1836-1840 Dale Co. AL). According to oral tradition in one branch of descendants, his name was Samson (perhaps Samson was his middle name?). Benjamin Carpenter married ca 1806 to Milly --?--. They resided in SC ca 1808-1816, in Dale Co. AL in 1830, and bought land on 5 Jan 1836 in Dale Co. AL. Milly and children resided in Dale Co. AL in 1840 and in Coffee Co. AL in 1850. No further mention of Benjamin after the land sale that I've seen. His son, my ancestor, Sampson A. CARPENTER (born ca 1816 in SC), married ca 1838 to Nancy MAYBERRY (born ca 1817 AL). They resided in Coffee Co. AL in 1850 and 1860. There is an established MABRY line in Union Co SC, coming from Surry Co VA but through the Warren Co area of NC (near Nash Co). My Nancy may be from a Franklin Co GA branch of the Mabrys. Benjamin's family may have been in NC before SC, but that is unproven. I thought at one time that his father was Thomas "Jack" of Nash Co NC, but I have not been able to prove it. There were some PA Dutch Zimmermans who came to middle NC in the 1750s, eventually moving south until in Old Tryon Co, with some of this line being buried as Carpenters in Blacksburg SC. I have been unable to prove any descent from these people as well. I have info on Benjamin's descendents, if anyone is interested. Thanks, Rick Carpenter

This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------2FBF221E23CF94D260C8022A Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Opps, forgot the attachment! Sorry, JRC Dear M Nill, Attached is what I have on the descendants of ... James B. CARPENTER-2748 4 Jan 1784 Warwick,Orange,NY --SPOUSE-- MRIN:923 Catherine STRYKER-2749 28 Aug 1785 ,,NJ --CHILDREN-- 1Benjamin CARPENTER-5060 2-Abraham CARPENTER-4803 3William S. CARPENTER-4805 4-Sarah C. CARPENTER-4807 5-Lydia CARPENTER-4809 6-Reuben CARPENTER-4811 7-Asenwith CARPENTER-4813 8-John CARPENTER-4815 I have added the basic data you sent. If you are interested in sharing data on this line, please let me know. Sincerely, John R. Carpenter 5850 Yorkshire Ave. La Mesa, CA 91942-2821 (619) (935 in 6/00) 466-5735 (San Diego county) MNill50012@aol.com wrote: > > My line descends thru > John Carpenter, b 8 Oct 1626, Eng, sp, Hannah Smith (dau of William & > Magdalene) > Samuel, b ca 1666, Jamaica, NY " Sarah (?) > Samuel, b ca 1695 " " Patience (?) > Joshua, b ca 1740, " " Sarah Burt > James B. b 4 Jan 1784, Warwick, NY" Catherine Stryker > William S. b 5 Mar 1813, Shelby, NY " Lydia Older > Sarah Ellen, b 19 Jun 1851, MI " Coroden Hess Sarah was my > grandmother. > M Nill, San Carlos, CA --------------2FBF221E23CF94D260C8022A Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; name="2748d.txt" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline; filename="2748d.txt" Descendants of James B. CARPENTER-2748 First Generation 1. James B. CARPENTER-2748 was born 4 Jan 1784 in Warwick, Orange, NY and was christened May 1784 in Warwick, Orange, NY. He died 23 Nov 1857 in Fairfield, Lenawee, MI. !Not listed in the Carpenter Memorial. Descendants provided by Merrily G. Lawson of Bellingham, WA in 2/98. !BAPTISIM: May 1784 in Warwick, NY. Per Tiny Pearce on Tue, 8 Jun 1999 at traingen@ix.netcom.com. James married (1-MRIN:923) Catherine STRYKER-2749, daughter of Peter STRYKER-4800 and Elanah LOW-4801 (MRIN:1554) on 17 Aug 1805 in Chemung, NY. Catherine was born 28 Aug 1785 in NJ. She died 9 Aug 1873 in Fairfield, Lenawee, MI. !NAME: STRYKER or STRYCKER. DEATH: Died Adrian, Lenawee county, MI Per Tiny Pearce on Tue, 8 Jun 1999 at traingen@ix.netcom.com. James and Catherine had the following children: + 2 M i. Benjamin CARPENTER-5060 was born 1 Jun 1807 and died after 1885. 3 M ii. Abraham CARPENTER-4803 was born 1809 in Newtown, Tioga, NY and was christened in now Elmira, Chemung, NY. He died in Lenawee, MI and was buried 28 Apr 1895. Elmira was known as Newtown before abt 1822. Chemung county was created in 1838. Abraham married (1-MRIN:1556) Julia HIMES-4804. Julia was born about 1809. + 4 M iii. William S. CARPENTER-4805 was born 5 Mar 1813 and died 19 Mar 1888. 5 F iv. Sarah C. CARPENTER-4807 was born 10 Aug 1815 in Shelby, Orleans, NY. She died 19 Feb in Fairfield, Lenawee, MI. Sarah married (1-MRIN:1558) William WEATHERBY-4808 on 31 Dec 1835. William was born about 1815. 6 F v. Lydia CARPENTER-4809 was born 4 Nov 1817 in Shelby, Orleans, NY. She died 5 Jun 1915 in Fairfield, Lenawee, MI. Lydia married (1-MRIN:1559) Sheldon WYMAN-4810 on 3 Nov 1836. Sheldon was born about 1817. 7 M vi. Reuben CARPENTER-4811 was born 1820 in Orleans, NY. Reuben married (1-MRIN:1560) Rosanna MCCONNELL-4812. Rosanna was born about 1820 in NY. 8 F vii. Asenwith CARPENTER-4813 was born 5 Mar 1822 in Shelby, Orleans, NY. She died 17 Feb 1844 in Fairfield, Lenawee, MI. Asenwith married (1-MRIN:1561) Jonas Parker WYMAN-4814. Jonas was born about 1822 in NY. 9 M viii. John CARPENTER-4815 was born 1825 in Shelby, Orleans, NY. John married (1-MRIN:16390) Elizabeth TERRY-46214. Elizabeth was born about 1825 in NY. Second Generation 2. Benjamin CARPENTER-5060 was born 1 Jun 1807 in Newtown, Tioga, NY and was christened in now Elmira, Chemung, NY. He died after 1885 in Lenawee, MI. Elmira was known as Newtown before abt 1822. Chemung county was created in 1838. Benjamin married (1-MRIN:1555) Elizabeth M. WILCOX-4802, daughter of Silas WILCOX-3612 and Cynthia TAFT-2745 (MRIN:922). Elizabeth was born 2 May 1812 in Palmyra, Ontario, NY. She died after 1885. They had the following children: + 10 M i. James B. CARPENTER-3322 was born 19 Feb 1829. 11 F ii. Mary J. CARPENTER-2840 was born 24 Oct 1830 in Shelby, Orleans, NY. Mary married (1-MRIN:921) William H. SMITH-4399. William was born about 1830. 12 M iii. Silas Benjamin CARPENTER-2946 was born 1 Jul 1832 in Shelby, Orleans, NY. He died 26 Jun 1875 in MI. Silas married (1-MRIN:920) Sarah REGLESS-2878 on 4 Jul 1854. Sarah was born about 1832. + 13 M iv. Abraham S. CARPENTER-3625 was born 13 Jul 1835 and died 2 Dec 1914. 14 F v. Lucretia M. CARPENTER-2731 was born 19 Sep 1837 in Orleans, NY and was christened in Fairfield, Lenawee, MI. She died after 1885. CHR in MI, but born in NY. AF has it wrong. Lucretia married (1-MRIN:912) Henry REGLESS-2711 on 1 May 1857. Henry was born about 1837. 15 M vi. Thomas Jefferson CARPENTER-4292 was born 19 Dec 1839 in Fairfield, Lenawee, MI. He died Mar 1875 in Huntsville, AL. Thomas married (1-MRIN:911) Harriet D. AVERY-2756 on Jun 1862. Harriet was born about 1839. 16 M vii. Jerome B. CARPENTER-3246 was born 11 Sep 1843 in Fairfield, Lenawee, MI. He died after 1885. Jerome married (1-MRIN:904) Elmyra ALLEN-2977 on May 1863. Elmyra was born about 1843. 17 M viii. Charles A. CARPENTER-4008 was born 14 Jan 1845 in Fairfield, Lenawee, MI. Charles married (1-MRIN:903) Emily D. ALLEN-2978 on 7 Jun 1863. Emily was born about 1845. 18 M ix. William H. CARPENTER-4656 was born 14 Sep 1847 in Fairfield, Lenawee, MI. He died 1855. 19 M x. Allen B. CARPENTER-3310 was born 22 Feb 1850 in Fairfield, Lenawee, MI. He died before 1950. 20 M xi. George J. CARPENTER-3443 was born 18 Mar 1853 in Fairfield, Lenawee, MI. He died before 1955. 21 F xii. Lucy A. CARPENTER-3635 was born 30 Aug 1855 in Madison, Lenawee, MI. Lucy married (1-MRIN:902) Edward DONALDSON-3619. Edward was born about 1855. 22 F xiii. Emma A. CARPENTER-4654 was born 19 Sep 1858 in Madison, Lenawee, MI. She died before 1955. 4. William S. CARPENTER-4805 was born 5 Mar 1813 in Shelby, Orleans, NY. He died 19 Mar 1888 in Columbia, MI. !E-MAIL: Thu, 29 Jul 1999 From: M Nill at MNill50012@aol.com My line descends thru John Carpenter, b 8 Oct 1626, Eng, sp, Hannah Smith (dau of William & Magdalene) Samuel, b ca 1666, Jamaica, NY " Sarah (?) Samuel, b ca 1695 " " Patience (?) Joshua, b ca 1740, " " Sarah Burt James B. b 4 Jan 1784, Warwick, NY" Catherine Stryker ***William S. b 5 Mar 1813, Shelby, NY " Lydia Older Sarah Ellen, b 19 Jun 1851, MI " Coroden Hess Sarah was my grandmother. M Nill, San Carlos, CA. William married (1-MRIN:1557) Lydia OLDER-4806 on 1834. Lydia was born about 1813. They had the following children: 23 F i. Sarah Ellen CARPENTER-48283 was born 19 Jun 1851 in MI. Sarah married (1-MRIN:17127) Coroden HESS-48284. Coroden was born about 1851. Third Generation 10. James B. CARPENTER-3322 was born 19 Feb 1829 in Shelby, Orleans, NY. He is believed to be the spouse of Martha Elizabeth Carpenter who is number 8361 in the Carpenter Memorial. James married (1-MRIN:7919) Martha Elizabeth CARPENTER-21954, daughter of Elijah CARPENTER-21928 and Elvira BALDWIN-21938 (MRIN:7900) about 1850 in NY. Martha was born 19 Feb 1824 in Elmira, Tioga, NY. She died 1893 in Lowman, NY. !Number 8361 in the Carpenter Memorial. Page 786. She married a James Carpenter and they had 4 children. The Carpenter Memorial does not indicate the relationship or who was his father. One child was possibly named William. James and Martha had the following children: 24 M i. William CARPENTER-21974 was born about 1854 in NY. 13. Abraham S. CARPENTER-3625 was born 13 Jul 1835 in Orleans, NY and was christened in Fairfield, Lenawee, MI. He died 2 Dec 1914 in Plankinton, Aurora, SD and was buried about Dec 1914 in Alpena CEM, Aurora, SD. !Divorced from first wife. CHR in MI, but born in NY. AF has it wrong. Abraham married (1-MRIN:918) Emeline Baldwin PACKARD-5927, daughter of John Ford PACKARD-5928 and Maria COMPTON-5929 (MRIN:1974) on 20 Sep 1856 in Adrian, Lenawee, MI. The marriage ended in divorce. Emeline was born 5 Jun 1840 in Adrian, Lenawee, MI. She died 15 Dec 1916 in Inglewood, Los Angeles, CA. Emeline is a descendant of Frances Cooke of the Mayflower through her father's line. Abraham and Emeline had the following children: + 25 F i. Eva Estelle CARPENTER-5932 was born 30 Jan 1858 and died 15 Feb 1937. + 26 F ii. Frances M. CARPENTER-5934 was born May 1861. Abraham also married (2-MRIN:1971) Polly DAY-5926 on 24 Dec 1869 in Glenwood, Mills, IA. Polly was born 12 Feb 1834 in NY. She died 14 Aug 1918 in Plankinton, Aurora, SD. They had the following children: 27 M iii. George CARPENTER-5969 was born 30 Nov 1870 in Malvern, Mills, IA. He died 1943 in Wagner, Charles Mix, SD and was buried in Wagner Cem, Wagner, Charles Mix, SD. 28 M iv. Clarence Day CARPENTER-5970 was born 15 Sep 1875 in Malvern, Mills, IA. He died 5 Mar 1965 in Wagner, Charles Mix, SD and was buried in Wagner Cem, Wagner, Charles Mix, SD. Fourth Generation 25. Eva Estelle CARPENTER-5932 was born 30 Jan 1858 in Adrian, Lenawee, MI. She died 15 Feb 1937 in Los Angeles, CA. Eva married (1-MRIN:1976) John Campbell MARTIN-5933, son of John Mc Lain MARTIN-5948 and Jane BRENNEMAN-5949 (MRIN:1983) on 31 Dec 1875 in Gilroy, Santa Clara, CA. John was born 10 Mar 1846 in Westmoreland, PA. He died 23 Jun 1919 in Los Angeles, CA. They had the following children: 29 F i. Stella Irene MARTIN-5950 was born 4 Jun 1877 in San Francisco, San Francisco, CA. She died in Prescott, Yavapai, AZ. Stella married (1-MRIN:1984) Fen S. HILDRETH-5951 on 20 Mar 1900. Fen was born about 1877. 30 M ii. John Rey MARTIN-5952 was born 5 Mar 1880 in San Francisco, San Francisco, CA. He died 29 Sep 1880 in San Francisco, San Francisco, CA. + 31 F iii. Edna Joy MARTIN-5953 was born 18 Jul 1881 and died 18 Aug 1956. 32 F iv. Hazel Inez MARTIN-5955 was born 16 Oct 1888 in Prescott, Yavapai, AZ. Hazel married (1-MRIN:1986) Edward J. KUEGEMAN-5956 on 5 Oct 1911 in Santa Ana, Orange, CA. Edward was born about 1888. 33 M v. Jay C. MARTIN-5957 was born 16 Oct 1888 in Prescott, Yavapai, AZ. Jay married (1-MRIN:1987) Virginia DAVIDSON-5958 on 26 Sep 1911 in Los Angeles, Los Angeles, CA. Virginia was born about 1888. 34 F vi. Zilpha MARTIN-5959 was born 1 Sep 1890 in Prescott, Yavapai, AZ. She died 1979 in CA. 26. Frances M. CARPENTER-5934 was born May 1861 in Lenawee, MI. Frances married (1-MRIN:1977) Frank STEVERS-5935. Frank was born Nov 1858 in CT. NAME: Stever in AF, but Stevers is correct. Frank and Frances had the following children: 35 M i. Frank E. STEVERS-35443 was born Mar 1881 in CA. 36 M ii. Lourance C. STEVERS-35444 was born Sep 1885 in TX. 37 F iii. Lola F. STEVERS-35445 was born Mar 1890 in NM. Fifth Generation 31. Edna Joy MARTIN-5953 was born 18 Jul 1881 in San Francisco, San Francisco, CA. She died 18 Aug 1956 in Tulsa, Tulsa, OK and was buried in Tulsa Cem, Tulsa, OK. Edna married (1-MRIN:1985) John Delisle WAKELY-5954, son of John WAKELY-5960 and Grace Berryman JENNINGS-5961 (MRIN:1988) on 14 Oct 1901 in Prescott, Yavapai, AZ. John was born 9 Oct 1867 in Kilkhampton, Cornwall, England. He died 20 Jan 1953 in Tulsa, Tulsa, OK. They had the following children: + 38 F i. Grace Miriam WAKELY-5962 was born 26 Dec 1902 and died 6 Oct 1996. 39 F ii. Elaine Estelle WAKELY-5964 was born 27 Nov 1903 in Prescott, Yavapai, AZ. She died 8 Aug 1904 in Ochelata It, OK. + 40 M iii. John Delisle WAKELY-5965 was born 27 Jul 1905 and died Nov 1985. + 41 F iv. Blanche WAKELY-5967 was born 16 Jul 1916 and died 28 May 1972. Sixth Generation 38. Grace Miriam WAKELY-5962 was born 26 Dec 1902 in Prescott, Yavapai, AZ. She died 6 Oct 1996 in Tulsa, Tulsa, OK and was buried in Tulsa, OK. Grace married (1-MRIN:1989) James Willard BERRY-5963 on 29 Apr 1926. James was born 1896. He died Aug 1962 in Tulsa, Tulsa, OK. They had the following children: 42 F i. Beverly BERRY-33733 was born Aug 1930. 43 M ii. James Willard BERRY-33734 was born 1934 in Tulsa, Tulsa, OK. James married (1-MRIN:12077) Phyllis-33738. Phyllis was born about 1934. She died 31 Jul 1995 in Tulsa, Tulsa, OK. 40. John Delisle WAKELY-5965 was born 27 Jul 1905 in Ochelata It, OK. He died Nov 1985 in Osage, Tulsa, OK. John married (1-MRIN:1990) Bernice P.-5966. Bernice was born 11 Dec 1902. She died Feb 1973 in Tulsa, Tulsa, OK. They had the following children: 44 M i. John WAKELY-33736 was born about 1927. 45 M ii. Thomas WAKELY-33737 was born about 1930. 41. Blanche WAKELY-5967 was born 16 Jul 1916 in Oshawa, Ontario, Canada. She died 28 May 1972 in Billings, Yellowstone, MT and was buried Jun 1972 in Sunset Mem Gdns, Yellowstone, MT. Blanche married (1-MRIN:1991) Theodore Roosevelt GILBERT-5968 on 31 Jan 1941 in Okmulgee, Okmulgee, OK. Theodore was born 25 May 1914 in Hardy, Kay, OK. He died 20 Apr 1957 in Billings, Yellowstone, MT. They had the following children: + 46 F i. Merrily GILBERT-25977 was born 29 Jul 1942. + 47 F ii. Joy GILBERT-33722 was born 2 Oct 1943. 48 M iii. Theodore Delisle GILBERT-33723 was born 7 Jul 1953 in Billings, Yellowstone, MT. He died 21 Sep 1970 in Billings, Yellowstone, MT and was buried Sep 1970 in Sunset Mem Gdns, Yellowstone, MT. Seventh Generation 46. Merrily GILBERT-25977 was born 29 Jul 1942 in Tulsa, Tulsa, OK and was christened 27 Nov 1954 in St Lukes, Billings, MT. !Information provided on her ancestors by THIS person. Merrily Gilbert Lawson, of Bellingham, WA, in a letter dated 13 April 1997. Merrily married (1-MRIN:12067) Jerry Clark LAWSON-33698 on 3 Mar 1962 in Billings, Yellowstone, MT. Jerry was born 1 Dec 1932 in Yankton, Yankton, SD. They had the following children: 49 M i. Corey Stephen LAWSON-33717 was born 4 Dec 1967 in Denver, Arapahoe, CO and was christened 21 Apr 1973 in St Christophers, Cheyenne, WY. Corey married (1-MRIN:12069) Kimberly Ann GRANVILLE-33732 on 16 Dec 1995 in Seattle, King, WA. Kimberly was born 7 Aug 1968 in Channahon, Will, IL. 50 F ii. Melanie Sue LAWSON-33718 was born 2 Jan 1969 in Cheyenne, Laramie, WY and was christened 21 Apr 1973 in St Christophers, Cheyenne, WY. Melanie married (1-MRIN:12070) David Scott FALLIS-33730 on 24 Feb 1994 in Bellingham, Whatcom, WA. David was born 7 Jul 1967. 51 M iii. Barry Kevin LAWSON-33719 was born 22 May 1971 in Cheyenne, Laramie, WY and was christened 21 Apr 1973 in St Christophers, Cheyenne, WY. Barry married (1-MRIN:12071) Melissa Kay WILLIAMS-33731 on 22 Apr 1993 in Bellingham, Whatcom, WA. Melissa was born 10 Mar 1970 in Whatcom, WA. 47. Joy GILBERT-33722 was born 2 Oct 1943 in Billings, Yellowstone, MT. Joy married (1-MRIN:12072) Lyman Joseph HAWKINS-33724 on 1961 in Billings, Yellowstone, MT. The marriage ended in divorce. Lyman was born about 1943. They had the followin

Dear M Nill, Attached is what I have on the descendants of ... James B. CARPENTER-2748 4 Jan 1784 Warwick,Orange,NY --SPOUSE-- MRIN:923 Catherine STRYKER-2749 28 Aug 1785 ,,NJ --CHILDREN-- 1Benjamin CARPENTER-5060 2-Abraham CARPENTER-4803 3William S. CARPENTER-4805 4-Sarah C. CARPENTER-4807 5-Lydia CARPENTER-4809 6-Reuben CARPENTER-4811 7-Asenwith CARPENTER-4813 8-John CARPENTER-4815 I have added the basic data you sent. If you are interested in sharing data on this line, please let me know. Sincerely, John R. Carpenter 5850 Yorkshire Ave. La Mesa, CA 91942-2821 (619) (935 in 6/00) 466-5735 (San Diego county) MNill50012@aol.com wrote: > > My line descends thru > John Carpenter, b 8 Oct 1626, Eng, sp, Hannah Smith (dau of William & > Magdalene) > Samuel, b ca 1666, Jamaica, NY " Sarah (?) > Samuel, b ca 1695 " " Patience (?) > Joshua, b ca 1740, " " Sarah Burt > James B. b 4 Jan 1784, Warwick, NY" Catherine Stryker > William S. b 5 Mar 1813, Shelby, NY " Lydia Older > Sarah Ellen, b 19 Jun 1851, MI " Coroden Hess Sarah was my > grandmother. > M Nill, San Carlos, CA

Dear Eleanor, Some of the older records are wrong on the ancestry of Abigail and her father Captain William Carpenter of Rehoboth. The data below is correct to my knowledge. The notes explain changes to this line and why. Sincerely, John R. Carpenter La Mesa, CA USA +---¦William CARPENTER Capt.-584 Abigail CARPENTER-107 ¦ ¦23 May 1605 31 May 1629 -------¦ ¦of,Wiltshire,England Shalbourne,Wiltshire,England ¦ MRIN:5248 --SPOUSE-- MRIN:197 +---¦Abigail BRIANT-659 John TITUS-635 ¦27 May 1604 18 Dec 1627 ¦Shalbourne,Wiltshire,England St. Katherine's,London,M,England (There are other marriages) --CHILDREN-- 1Samuel TITUS-638 2Joseph TITUS-639 3-Mary OR Mercy TITUS-640 4Experience TITUS-641 INDIVIDUAL DATA RIN:584 - -------------------------------------------------------- Name:William CARPENTER Capt. Sex:M ID No:2PN1-LS Birth:23 May 1605 Place:of,Wiltshire,England Chr: Place: Marr:28 Apr 1625 Spouse:Abigail BRIANT-659 Marr:Abt 1621 Spouse:Abigail (SALE) SEARLES-585 Marr: Spouse: Death:Aft 21 Apr 1659 Place:W.P.,Rehoboth,Bristol,MA Burial:Bef 7 Feb 1659 Place:Newman Cem.,East Providence,P,RI Father:William CARPENTER oW-98 Mother:Alice-27675 Notes ------------------------------------------- !NOTE: A farmer by trade. A Freeman of Weymouth 13 May 1640 and of Rehoboth 28 Mar 1645. Much information in the following books. MARRIAGE CORRECTION BELOW!!! MARRIAGE RECORD FOUND IN ENGLAND! !Number 16 in the Carpenter Memorial by Amos B. Carpenter (1898). AFN V6TJ-CO & LSD9-5L on this William has major errors. Sources below used for corrections. Captain of the Colony. !FOUNDER: Captain William Carpenter is concidered the founder of the Rehoboth MA Branch of the Carpenters. !BIRTH: Probably in Wiltshire. He spent time in Wherwell (Whirlwell or Horwell). Born 23 or 25 (in some records) May 1605. CHR: 1611 in Somerset per one record. This is about 150 miles away, however and may have belonged to another. !DEATH: 7 Feb 1658/59 in Rehoboth per some records. However this was the date his will was proven. See book note below. BURIAL: His grave is in the Newman Cemetery in Rumford, RI which used to be part of Rehoboth, MA. His maker is an ordinary field stone with the initials "W.C." carved with "1658" chisled below it. John L. Carpenter of Walpole, NH has an excellent picture which he has digitized for e-Mail use. !Some records given Abigail Sales (Searles) as wife and others Abigail Bennett, Ralph his step-brother is also listed as a spouse to Abigail Bennett. It is likely that this Williiam was married at least twice. Abigail Bennett died in 1687 in Rehoboth. If this is true the first three kids are AS and others to AB. In at least one record, Abigail Briant (Bryant) is listed as spouse. If she was a spouse, she would have been number one or one of the Abigails above under a married name? FOUND!!! !MARRIAGE: Marriage record in the Bishops' Transcripts at Shalbourne (administered by Wiltshire then but actually in Berkshire today) indicates he and Abigail "Briante" were married there on 28 April 1625. Per American Genealogist, whole number 280, Vol. 70, No. 4 October 1995. !CHILDREN: Many researchers try to put a Ephraim (b. 25 April 1651) in this family but this is in error. See the grandchild of this William, through his son named William, for the Ephraim(s) born 25 April 16XX. Many researchers say that Abraham (b. 9 Feb 1643) is in this family in error also. Yet no other individual comes close to birth or baptisim date. In the children sequence he fits and most likely died young. !Per "GENEALOGICAL & FAMILY HISTORY OF WESTERN NEW YORK," LEWIS 1912, Page 1253 Much detail given: Will dated 21 Apr 1659, Proved 7 Feb 1659, and yes they appear backwards. Will done in 1658? He married in England, Abigail ? who died 22 Feb, 1687. *On page 1318: His birth is listed as 25 May 1605. Records show he was a fine writer, a man of affairs, possessed of much ability. !OTHER INFORMATION INCLUDES BUT NOT LIMITED TO: DEPUTY TO THE GENERAL COURT FROM WEYMOUTH IN 1641-43 AND FROM REHOBOTH IN IN 1645, CONSTABLE IN 1641. HE WAS A CLOSE FRIEND TO GOVERNOR WILLIAM BRADFORD, WHO MARRIED HIS COUSIN ALICE CARPENTER. HE BOUGHT THE AREA NOW CALLED REHOBOTH (8 MILES SQUARE) FROM THE INDIANS. PROPRIETORS' CLERK FROM 1643-1649. CONTRIBUTED TOWARD THE EXPENSES OF KING PHILLIPS WAR. IN 1647, A SELECTMAN FROM REHOBOTH. HE WAS A CAPTAIN OF MILITA. !NOTE: See also San Diego Family History Center book 929.273 C226c. This orignal typed copy contains descendants not in the the 1898 book. AFN LSD9-5L is apparently the same person with Baptisim date as birth date. !BOOK:- GENEALOGY: Amos B. Carpenter, A GENEALOGICAL HISTORY OF THE REHOBOTH BRANCH OF THE CARPENTER FAMILY IN AMERICA. Also known as the CARPENTER MEMORIAL. Published 1898 By: Press of Carpenter & Morehouse, Amherst, MA. WILLIAM is listed as # 16. Pages 38 to 50. !BOOK:- GENEALOGY: Carpenter and Allied Families by Miss Annie L. Carpenter, The American Historical Society, Inc., NY, published in 1936. Page 11-13. !See LDS film #1449498; c225a; 0928227; 1404120. See Carpenter Family publication, LDS film #1685645. See Rehoboth MA Vital Records Arnold pp. 571, 578. See Rehoboth MA Vital Records Carpenter pp. 808. See Weymouth Historical Society publication N2, pp 254-287. See New England Historical & Genealogical Register Vol LXV p.65 !See Plymouth Colony Records, 12 Vols. (Boston, MA, 1861), Wills, Vol. 2, pp. 80-83. !See REF: B.B. TOPP, Carpenter Chronicles #24, Nov 1995 Contents of pages 298-300 of Emigration List, BEVIS 1638 "Portus Southon: Southon, (May 1638) The list of the names of passengers intended to shipe themselves, in the Bevis of Hampton of CL tommes, Robert Batten, Master, for New England; thus by vertue of the Lord Tresurers Warrant of the second of May, which was after the restrayne(t) & they some dayes gone to sea before the King's Mates. Proclamacon come unto Southton." (lists of names) age name 62 William Carpenter 33 William Carpenter Jun (of Horwell) 32 Abigail Carpenter 10 & under four children servant (NOTE: Southon = Southampton) !Through his five sons, Capt. William Carpenter became the father of "The Family of Heroes." Over 300 of his male lineal descendants (230 proven as of 8/96) served America in the Revolutionary War. No other American colonial man had as many. Source: Raymond George Carpenter, American Genealogist for the Carpenter Family, author of "The Family of Heroes." (serial) !BOOK: "The Carpenter Family in America from the Settlement at Providence, R.I. 1637-1901." By Daniel Hoogland Carpenter of Mapelwood, Essex, NJ. Published by the Marion Press of Jamacia, Queensborough, NY in 1901. 370 Pages. See page 354, Describing the "Visitation" or census of the College of Arms in 1623 and 1634 where it is shown that there was a number of Carpenter families in Gloucester, Hereford, Somerset, and Surrey, who made proof of their pedigrees by presenting arms which were emblazoned in the windows of the Church at Westbury upon Trin (often called the Worcester Arms). !MISC: Descendants of Captain William Carpenter are eligible for membership in the "Order of First Families of Rhode Island and Providence Plantations." For information contact the "Order" above at 45 East 200 North Street, Salt Lake City, UT 84103. end notes HIS FATHER ... INDIVIDUAL DATA RIN:98 - ---------------------------------------------------- Name:William CARPENTER of Wherwell Sex:M ID No:8MH9-NS Birth: 1576 Place:Horwell,Hampshire,England Chr: Place:of Dilwyn,,,England Marr: 1595 Spouse:Mary BATT-14690 Marr:Abt Aug 1604 Spouse:Alice-27675 Marr: Spouse: Death: 1638 Place:at sea or near,Weymouth,Norfolk,MA Burial: Place: Father:Robert CARPENTER oM-14708 Mother:Eleanor CARPENTER-14714 Notes ------------------------------------------------------- !NOTE: William came to America in 1638 in the ship "Bevis" with his son. He returned to England and died there. Per 1898 Book. A carpenter by trade? HOWEVER . . . The American Genealogist, number 280, Vol. 70, No. 4 October 1995 indicates he died during the voyage to New England in the Bevis or shortly thereafter. While many records profess his return to England, no record has been found to prove this. !NOTE: Marriage date and children seem to indicate two marriages. First one about 1598? Second in 1605. Yet another record indicates that William married Mary Batt in 1595 at Old Salisbury Parish. The 1605 date was probably for Alice who was buried in Shalbourne. Different Carpenter histories seems to only allow for one marriage, but two seems the case. Many corrections on this line has been made due to newer data being found (like wills, marriages et cetera). !BOOK- GENEALOGY: PER "GENEALOGICAL & FAMILY HISTORY OF WESTERN NEW YORK" LEWIS, 1912: PAGE 1252, 53: ...was born in England in 1576. He came to America with his wife and son William, in the ship "Bevis," in 1638, and returned in the same ship to England. He was a resident of London. PAGE 1318: ..., third son of William Carpenter, born 1576, was a Carpenter by trade and resided in London. He rented tenements and gardens in Houndsditch. Being a Dissenter, he was driven to Whirwell to escape persecution, and took the opprotunity to join his sons in emigrating to America. He was not contented on this side, however, and returned to England in the ship which brought him. !BOOK- GENEALOGY: Amos B. Carpenter, A GENEALOGICAL HISTORY OF THE REHOBOTH BRANCH OF THE CARPENTER FAMILY IN AMERICA. Also known as the CARPENTER MEMORIAL. Published 1898 By: Press of Carpenter & Morehouse, Amherst, MA. This William's father is listed as William born about 1540 in the CM, but this is wrong. Wills and deeds prove Robert as the father. !SEE: Also: Carpenter and Allied Families by Miss Annie L. Carpenter, The American Historical Society, Inc., NY, published in 1936. Page 11. !MARR PLACE: Old Salisbury Parish, England. !RESIDENCE: Horwell is the village now known as Wherwell in Hampshire. It appears the family was there only a short time, probably preparing for their voyage to New England. !MISC: Marden and Cheriton Parishes, Wherwell in Wiltshire were Puritan strongholds. Rev. Stephen Bachiler and Richard Dummer (who was on the Bevis in 1638) were actively engaged in persuading religious dissenters to join them in New England with their Plough Company. This includes William Carpenter. end notes. Eleanor Adams wrote: > > Abigail Carpenter was born 9 Apr 1643 in Weymouth, Norfolk, MA, daughter of > William Carpenter and Abigail SEARLES. She married John TITUS in 1659. At > least that is what I have thought for several years. But, I just found > some conflicting information > which has me confused. Not only was her mother referred to with a > different name, but her line of descent in the Carpenter family is shown > differently. Can anyone confirm my data? > > Eleanor Adams

Dear Bruce, I have no Edward Carpenter (Charpentier) in that time period in my records or notes. Your data indicates he probably died shortly before 12 June 32 (1332) by the phrase "Three shops late of Edward Carpenter of Templestreet." He was probably a relative of Queen Philippa, who was the grand daughter of Godefroy de Carpentier, Sire de Daniel and d'Avesnes-les-Obert (benefactor of the Abbey of Vaucelles according to a title of the year 1280, and brother of the aforesaid Siger, Sire de Vannes). If you find any more data on his life, let us know. Sincerely, John R. Carpenter La Mesa, CA Bruce E. Carpenter wrote: > > The second significant group of London area Carpenters was those centered > about a Edward Carpenter. Edward’s Carpenter surname was frequently rendered > as Charpenter, a convention in 14th century documents for those of the > ‘denizen’ status or non-citizens, to be distinguished from those who were > aliens. The ‘denizens’ were the foreign permanent residents engaged in > essential foreign trade. Those of the surname Charpenter in English records > were Carpentiers of Charpentiers among themselves. After a few generations > they were simply Carpenters, the many Charpenters having seemingly > disappeared in the late 1300s. Thus from about 1250 to 1350 a great number > of non-English Carpenters make their appearance in English records and then > blend into the native populace. This event takes place against the backround > of the Hundred Year’s War when the English crown eagerly sought foreign help > in a great miltary struggle on the continent. A premier group of these > non-English carpenters were those associated with Edward Carpenter or > Charpenter mentioned above. Previously I had shown that Edward was ‘probably > ’ a Fleming. I have found additional evidence to support this in a > connection with Queen Philippa. This document in from The calendar of Patent > Rolls for Edward lll in 1360, years after the death of Edward Charpenter. > > “Inspeximus and confirmation of letters patent (in French) of Queen Philippa > (1) dated at Marlborough, 12 June, 32 Edward lll, granting to John de > Gosebourn, auditor of her accounts, for long service , 32 ½ acres of land > which have come into her hand by escheat in the in the hundred of > Middleton, co. Kent, to hold to him, his heirs and assigns, for her life, by > the services due. > (2) The like, dated at Reading, 10 June, 33 Edward lll, granting to him > three shops late of Edward Carpenter of Templestreet, a tenement late of > Geoffrey Dubbere at the Blyndyate, a tenement there late of John > Brokensbergh, a tenement late of Robert Hattere by the Church of All Saints, > seven shops late of Edward Hattere, a teneament late of Robert Guldere in > Horstrete and four shops before the friars Preachers, which came into her > hand by escheat in the town of Bristol, to hold as above. > Grant also that if he survive the queen he shall retain the premises for his > life.” > > >From the names like Dubbere, Hattere and Guldere we can infer we are dealing > with a group of Flemings in a financial connection to the Fleming Queen > Philippa. I think we can safely assume Edward was a Fleming himself given > the material also previously quoted. Edward, as I had shown was a major > player in the London area of the early 1300s, as was his son Robert. These > Carpenter merchants had a bit of history already in England, and as I will > show in my next letter, they imported Flemish wine and no doubt exported > English wool. They grew extremely rich and exerted a the powerful influence > on the English crown as was shown in previous letters devoted to Carpenters > and Lancastrian politics. > > Sincerely > Bruce E. Carpenter > Professor > Tezukayama University > Visiting Scholar > University of Washington

Dear Jan, Your Welcome! A piece here and there can do wonders for the puzzle. Remember - There are several Charles in that line also. I look forward to your sharing. Sincerely, John R. Carpenter La Mesa, CA Gumpysfarm@aol.com wrote: > > I am so impressed!...and grateful... I have just glanced over (the ENTIRE) > document. Yes, I think there is a link I can follow. I need to digest this > information! Yes, I think one of them might fit. Also, there were several > family names that are interesting, like Goodell, Kellogg, and Bennett. > Those surnames are in my lines, but not the same as given names as your > chart. It does tell me they were probably working the same dirt somewhere! > > > I don't have a LOT on the Carpenters. What I do have is the Genung family > line from which my Thomas Carpender (b. c. 1826) springs from, when he > married Almeda Maria Genung. They had children Alice Carpenter/der and Henry > T. Carpenter/der. I can bring at least some of the family forward to > present. It appears there may be a connection in your records at first > glance, but I will study your work again more closely and get back to you. > Thomas is buried in Madison, Ohio, as is Bemsley and Olive. Bemsley would > have been about 51 at the time of Thomas Carpender/ter's birth. He could > have been Thomas's grandfather or father, etc. I need to check this out. I > will share everything I find with you. > > The second Carpenter I have in my line is Charlts Carpender/ter b. c. 1785. > I began his line in another document on my Lewis line printed in 1895, with > LOTS of decentness, etc., but absolutely NO dates! > > Both of these Carpenter lines produced females who married a > Moak/Moke/Mook/Mauch. Lewis, Genung, and Moak surnames do not appear in your > work, but again, you have a Kellogg, Bennett, and others that are common with > my lines, so I think we have some digging to do. Again, as I find anything, > I will share with you. > > I have a distant cousin I met online named Donald Wilkerson who is also > digging in the Carpenter lines. His ancestors are common on the Lewis line, > and married a Goodell. You have several of those in your work, so again, I > think there is a possible relationship along the way. > > I will post possible links I may find to the list so that if anything can be > added or corrected by others...they will have the welcomed opportunity! > > Thank you again for sharing your wonderful work. > > Jan Skinner > Lyman, SC > gumpysfarm@aol.com