Looking for Daniel R. Carpenter, born around 1813, NY, maybe Chautauqua Co, and his wife, Sally A. Wilson, born Nov. 1817, died March 6, 1863. Traveled to Oakland Co., Mi, in 1840 then Eaton Co., Michigan Kris

Dear Professor Carpenter: <P>I am hoping that you may be able to shed some light on my difficulty in finding further information on my ggg-grandfather Benjamin Carpenter.&nbsp; According to family legend he was born in the state of New York (however, I have one piece of documentation which says he was born in England.&nbsp; No city, etc.), being descended from 3 brothers who came to this country at the time of Revolutionary War as Hessian soldiers.&nbsp; I haven't put much stock in this story however, since I know nearly every genealogist has a story similar to this. I do know as fact that some of his children were born in the state of New York (Oneida County). <P>Since he was born 1 May 1803 (according to his tombstone) I have been unable to find any records on him.&nbsp; I have traced my family history starting with him and ending with my grand-daughter.&nbsp; Fortunately, when my family arrived in Wisconsin they only lived in one location prior to where the following generations (up to my father) were born and raised. <P>Living in Dane County, Wisconsin and working at the University of Wisconsin-Madison I have had access to one of the nations finest historical society collections.&nbsp; Most of the information I do have on my family came from this resource.&nbsp; I have tried contacting the person who is supposed to have the records for the cemetery in which he is buried.&nbsp; My phone calls and letters have gone unanswered.&nbsp; I have bought many family history CDs only to find no information on him.&nbsp; I am not a professional genealogist, however I have been working on this for approximately 16 years.&nbsp; I have also taken a beginning and advanced genealogy class, the latter through the University of Wisconsin. <P>I have been reading with great interest your research on the origins of the Carpenters and you appear to know your subject very well.&nbsp; Therefore, I am hoping you will be able to give some advice. <P>Sincerely, <P>Linda Carpenter Fry <P>Researching the following surnames: Carpenter, Hacker, Sorn, Farwell, Bardsley, Charlesworth, Cantrell (and all variations), Reynolds and Harmon&nbsp; <BR>&nbsp;

Dear Glenice, Bette Butcher Topp can be reached at: toppline@cet.com Sincerely, John R. Carpenter La Mesa, CA Glenicegs7@aol.com wrote: > > Could you tell me how to get hold of Bette Butcher Topp? > Thanks! > Glenice

Dear Bruce, Without a document from that time period stating X was the son of Y, it is still speculation or opinion. Even bits and pieces of historical fact need to be intrepeted or linked by opinion whether by a logical process or by the bias of the writer. I look forward to your enucleation on the subject. I hope you include your sources and thoughts so future researchers can review them in an appropiate manner. The credit, for having told a story so close to historical truth, will then be yours. By and by, my name is John R. Carpenter from La Mesa, CA. John L. Carpenter is a Carpenter Researcher from NH. I know it is hard to keep us apart because we look so much alike. Take care Cousin, John R. Carpenter La Mesa, CA USA Bruce E. Carpenter wrote: > > John: > Let us clarify one essential matter. The results of the > research I have conducted in the last few months > is not "opinion". It is historical fact. When I complete > this project and finally publish the results, it will completely > redefine who this Carpenter family was, and in ways completely > unknown and unsuspected by people like Raymond Carpenter > etc. who largely failed to carefully study the problem. > The credit (among a small group of people for sure) for > having told a story close to historical truth will be mine. > > Bruce E. Carpenter > professor Dear Bruce, Thank you for the bits and pieces. Your opinion has been noted. Ironically it is the same conclusion that those 19th century researchers forwarded. The Carpenters came from the Du Nord region of France (Netherlands, etc.). I am glad to see a consensus of opinion. Please keep those jewels of data coming in. Every piece helps with the Carpenter Family puzzle. Sincerely, John R. Carpenter La Mesa, CA USA

An excellent study of the wine trade has enlightened my in respect to many of the details on Carpenter history. The book is A History of the Vintners Company by Anne Crawford, Constable London, 1977. She presents evidence that argues that merchants like Peter and Oliver Charpenter were major players in the trade, by right of their royal license. Originally I thought Carpenter involvement in court finance and politics dated about the time of Henry Vl. The evidence now points to the 1300s at least, as a starting point. According to Anne Crawford, merchants who actively supported the crown were rewarded with knightships. This explains the Staunton St. John knight John Carpenter who held many manors. In my romantic conception of medieval England I thought all knights were products of knightly families. A wine merchant becoming a knight was something I couldn’t quite imagine. John Carpenter, I now seriously suspect, was a Jean le Carpentier directly related to Eduard le Carpentier, London wine merchant. The documents explicitly mention that Knight John was the son of a John. Could John and Eduard have been brothers, both being the sons of the mentioned John senior? Could this John have been the Jean le Carpenter granted a royal charter to export wool in 1273? Likewise could this whole line be from the Peter le Charpenter granted a royal charter to import wine about 1260? In another letter I will explain the significance of Gascony France and her merchants in England. Peter le Charpenter was a Gascon, as were most of the wine merchants of 1300s. Sincerely, Bruce E. Carpenter

John: Let us clarify one essential matter. The results of the research I have conducted in the last few months is not "opinion". It is historical fact. When I complete this project and finally publish the results, it will completely redefine who this Carpenter family was, and in ways completely unknown and unsuspected by people like Raymond Carpenter etc. who largely failed to carefully study the problem. The credit (among a small group of people for sure) for having told a story close to historical truth will be mine. Bruce E. Carpenter professor

Bruce and John - still enjoying your posts. Now, a new thought. You are holding the jewels of Carpenter history in your hands. I am selfishly looking ahead to my next trip to England. How exciting it would be to visit all the historical places of which you speak and that relate to our ancestry. Could you consider publishing a paper or book that would direct us to all these interesting places, explaining each step of the way their significance. I would purchase such a book. You have given Fleet street a whole new meaning to me and will see it with new eyes. I know your plates must be full - but (yes I'm pushing anyway) we are revisiting England May of 2001 :) I would even purchase a rough draft or a preliminary list. Think about it. please - Penny from Nebraska

Dear Bruce, Thank you for the bits and pieces. Your opinion has been noted. Ironically it is the same conclusion that those 19th century researchers forwarded. The Carpenters came from the Du Nord region of France (Netherlands, etc.). I am glad to see a consensus of opinion. Please keep those jewels of data coming in. Every piece helps with the Carpenter Family puzzle. Sincerely, John R. Carpenter La Mesa, CA USA Bruce E. Carpenter wrote: > > Let me restate my case in stark terms. The problem of the origins of the > London Carpenter family and Town Clerk John has come to an end. That line of > Carpenters originates with Flemish or French merchants, who were active in > England in the late 1200s. Richard Carpenter ‘chaundeler’, a probable > outfitter of ships, lived on Fleetstreet along the Thames River. > Likewise did Edward Carpenter (Charpenter) a wealthy wine importer and > likely wool exporter. Only such a rich mercantile family could have gained > the London Town Clerkship and subsequently financed the English crown > itself. The evidence presented would suffice in any historical academic > paper at Harvard or Yale. Finally, this evidence underlines the assertion of > the 17th century historian Jean le Carpentier that the English Carpenters > with arms originated in Flanders of the late 1200s. > > Sincerely, > Bruce E. Carpenter > professor

Dear Robin, You need to identify the place and time of the family name. Before the 1750s, spelling was not really standardized. Later the tried to spell phonetically. Naturally there were those educated and not so educated, so you would have variants. Look for legal documents and such for the accepted spellings. Generally speaking, I try to standardize the spelling in family groups. However ... For example: Searles is a sound/spelling variant of Sales with a cockney slang. Yet Sales comes from the older Sailes. Thus in family grouping the first spelling in that group tying into the next and the next. Another example is: Rosencrans, Rosenkrans, Rosecrans, Rosekrans and some 26 variants all have the same ancestry. Yet each group is a distinct family group in time and location. Yet all have the common "Rose", thus searches are done by "ROSE*" with the "*" as a wild card. In your Bennett with variants of Bennet, Benet, etc, the wild card search with the last name "Ben*". I use various genealogical programs, but I like PAF (Personal Ancestry File) with the exception of PAF 3.0 [ :( ]. Paf 2.31 and the new PAF 4.0 use a Random Information Number or RIN. You can down load PAF 4.0 for free at: http://www.familysearch.org/OtherResources/Other_Resources.asp Once the RIN is assigned in the data base, it stays the same unless you renumber by deleteing and GEDCOMing the data to another data base. If you keep the data as is, the numbers are the same. This is a great help when trying to quickly find one William Carpenter in a data base of some 48,000 names. As I was writing this, I did a quick search and found 586 William Carpenter variants. I can filter the date of birth or location also, but it is easier to go with a known RIN number. The PAF 4.0 search filters are more advanced than version 2.31, but it takes longer to do a search. In my e-mail address is JRC RIN 001. Can you guess what number I am in the data base? I hope this answers your questions. John R. Carpenter La Mesa, CA Robin Carpenter wrote: > > Hi John: > Thanks much for the Bennett data. Please advise how your system deals > with variant spellings. E.g., does the info you sent include "Bennet" as > well, but adopt uniform spelling, or is that separate? > (I have similar issues with Carpenter marriages to Pierce vs Peirce; I've > never really settled my mind as to whether these are "deliberate" different > families, or just idiosyncratic variations (or even just typos!). > Also, can you explain your numerical coding system a bit? Maybe this > would be of general interest to our List subscribers...in that you are > obviously a major data source for all of us. > Robin

Dear Charlie, Satellite comes the latin "satellit" meaning attendant or a member of a bodyguard or retinue. In the 1540s it was used in England as "one who is subordinate to another." Thus used below, is the latin meaning. I agree with Bruce that in the 13th Century, Fleetstreet was for the well to do. And as with every community, there was the servants and raffle near by. Eventually, the old die off and the young look elsewhere when their dwellings grow old and crime increases. It would be between 1400 to 1550 when the black plague would hit London several times. This would encourage the rich to move. It would not be until the 1700s until the area would be revitalized then later grow stale at the beginning of the 1900s. I hope this clarifies the term, satellite. Sincerely, John R. Carpenter La Mesa, CA Charlie Carpenter wrote: > > At 10:50 AM 7/31/1999 , Bruce E. Carpenter wrote: > > >such person, quoted from Patent Rolls for 1359. > > > >"The like to William de Shareshull, William de Thorpe, Robert de Thorpe, > >Henry Grene, William de Notton and John Lovekyn, mayor of London, touching > >certain satellites of the devil who plotting the death of Thomas de Setton, > >one of the justices of the Bench retained by the king to be one of the > >secret council, hired Thomas de Nesebit, chaplain, to kill him, which > >Thomas, when Thomas de Seton was of the king's council, entered his dwelling > >at Fleetstreet London, in friendly fashion and uttering fair words to him > >there struck him in the belly with a knife and atrociously wounded him, so > >that his life was despaired of." > > > >I think this and the previous material quoted re. Fleetsreet confirms that, > >regardless of poor conditions in one area, and a bad reputation hundreds of > >years later, Fleetstreet prior to John the Town Clerk was a residential area > >for the wealthy and educated. > > > >Sincerely, > >Bruce E. Carpenter > > Satellites? I'm not as well versed in this subject as you Bruce, and truely > enjoy the messages between you and John. But I dare say the word > "Satellites" is a recent addition to the English language. Or am I missing > out on something? > > Charlie

Dear Bruce, The following Carpenter line may apply to your Robert Le Carpentier in the 1311 records. It is the Gloucester Carpenter line. Jehan was a brother to Jean or John Le Carpentier. Thomas CARPENTER-44820 B: Abt 1355 of,Lydney,Gloucester,England M: --15883 D: Abt 1420 Bristol,Gloucester,England +++++Godefroy d'Avesnes I CARPENTIER Count de Avesnes, Du Nord, France ++++Jehan Le CARPENTIER - b. abt. 1250, Lord of Daniel, Du Nord, France +++Rob. CARPENTIER - b. abt 1275 in Du Nord, France ++Robert CARPENTER - b. abt 1303 in Gloucester, England +1 CARPENTER - name not known Thomas CARPENTER - subject above _________________ Bruce E. Carpenter wrote: > > While the chief export item from medieval England was wool, an extremely > important import item was wine from Poitou and Flanders. Indeed, wool was > sold and the profits used to import important wares the other way. The > Carpenters in medieval London were naturally directly involved with this > important trade. As you will see they sold their wines to the royal > household itself. But first in order to appreciate the importance of this > commodity trade and the implications it had for the politics of the city of > London specifically, allow me to quote from Longman’s The Life and Times of > Edward lll, London, 1869, vol. 1, p. 4. > > “Merchants became so rich, and were held in such high esteem, that in the > year 1363, one Picard, Mayor of London, entertained Edward the Third, the > Black Prince, and the King of France, Scotland and Cyprus, with many > nobility, in London at his house in the Vintry, where the foreign wine > merchants carried on the their business.” > > The most conspicuous Carpenter wine merchants were the previously mentioned > Edward Carpenter and a son Robert, probably one of the wealthiest families > in London of the 1300s. > In the following 1311 Fine Rolls document we can glimpse the scale of > Carpenter wine transactions. > > “Grant to the following merchant vintners of the issue of the custom of > wools and woolfells in the port of Boston. Robert le Carpenter of 58 l. for > 14 tuns.” > > The connection with the royal household can be appreciated in this next > Patent Rolls quotation from 1311. > > “Indemnity for the mayor, aldermen and communality of the city of London > against William Arnaldi of Portan, Gerald de Cannet, Robert le Carpenter, > Peter Bernadi of Bauet (or Garnet), Raymond de Maas, Peter de Cabaus, Peter > Arnaldi of Tesse, Bernard de la Mote, John Hereman, Peter Blaunke and > Bernard de la Denise, to whom they have given a bond for 870 L. 5s. 10d. for > 205 casks and one pipe of wine purchased for the king’s use.”

Dear Bruce, I do agree that the Carpenter books of the 19th Century have errors. Some more than others. Just look at James Usher's work on the Carpenters. However, to suggest to take those books and hide them somewhere and only use the most current books because "The old timers missed just about everything" would be inappropiate. They provide clues and bits and pieces here and there for future researchers. The Carpenters seem to be located in or near the Du Nord area of France, around London and around Bristol in England. The commonality is shipping and trade. The "old timers" indicated that the Carpenters where well educated and well off for their day and involved in trade. This clue has been around for some time. It is nice to see it "rediscovered." The Carpenter entry into England seems to have taken place in several stages. After the invasion of England in 1066 we find several Carpenters in the Domesday Book of 1087. Later we find Carpenters in Oxford, Norfolk, Dorset, Cornwall, Wiltshire and Yorkshire, England for example. We also have evidence of an Alexander Carpenter in Conral, Ireland in the early 1200s. The next step of Carpenters in England seems to come in the late 1200's or very very early 1300s from France. This is the period we have been discussing. The simplistic one Carpenter family going into England does not appear realistic. It seems at least 3 related Carpenter family groups came over. That one or more of them stayed in England may be simply because of the start of the 100 year war with France. By then, the Carpenters were English instead of French. Remember not to throw out the baby (clues) with the wash water. Sincerely, John R. Carpenter La Mesa, CA Bruce E. Carpenter wrote: > > John: > Long have I wondered where the Maurice Carpenter discussion came from. > Thanks. The 1912 Samuel Carpenter book. Finally! I would be perfectly > willing to let Maurice into my heart, but I fear he is a figment. The real > problem with Cornwall John and Glouster Maurice and the rest of the guys is > that they are a million miles from a community of Carpenters that already > exists in Richard Carpenter's backyard. Common sense dictates that the folks > close by are most likely related. Plus the gang in and around London had all > the money. I have been standing on my head and yelling till I am hoarse that > this family line had to have shekels, be into ships and trade. Cornwall John > doesn't have the MO. I will agree though that no daddy for Richard has been > found. I'll betcha he came from the area though. > One suggestion I have for you is too take all your 19th century books, hide > them somewhere, and then check out all that has been written and compiled > since. The old timers missed just about everything. In the end I think it > was Lord George Carpenter who came up with the bogus pedagree that has > confused everyone. Naturally he had to tell the world his family descended > from knights and not from some Fleming wine and wool merchant. > BC

Is there any one out there searching Carpenters in Louisiana East Baton Rouge Parish. I've seen lots of Northern Carpenters. Looking for information on Philip Carpenter 's parents. Philip married Eliza J McCulloch 1852 in East Baton Rouge Parish. Philip is head of household in 1850 census. It appears that he is the oldest male in the family at that time.Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks Margaret Whitehead

Hello Everyone! I haven't posted in a while, so perhaps some of the new members to this list would be interested in my site. I am a descendant of Reuben Carpenter (1821 - 1898), otherwise known as "The Squire" from Chittenango Station, NY. His obituary and biography is available at: http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Valley/2822/dnreubencarpenter.html There are also links to a photograph of his grave and to a photograph of his daughter Clara Aldora Carpenter, among other descendants. Regards to all, I hope you are all having a wonderful summer. Mike Smith Smitty's Genealogy: http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Valley/2822

I've long been trying to track down Samuel Carpenter, brother of my g-g-g-grandfather Jonathan Carpenter who lived near Goshen NY up till 1824, then moved to Northmoreland PA. There are so many Samuel Carpenters, however, that it's hard to distinguish among them. Now I have discovered that Samuel's wife's name was Clarissa. Her maiden name may likely have been Thompson, or possibly Carpenter (daughter of Jesse Carpenter). "Clarissa" being so much less common than a name than "Samuel," I'm hopeful again of identifying this family. If anyone here has any knowledge at all of Clarissa Carpenter--or any Samuel & Clarissa--around the early 1800s, I would greatly appreciate hearing from you. (They may have stayed in Orange County NY, or--more likely, I think--may have also moved to PA.) Robin C.

I have been collecting Civil War Veteran grave sites and also any information on Afro-Am. Slaves found among the papers of our white ancestors. I sent the information to those that will make it available to all on web sites ASAP. When you run across either of the above, please send it to me. Cut/Paste, what ever, just please send it. Wylene

Let me restate my case in stark terms. The problem of the origins of the London Carpenter family and Town Clerk John has come to an end. That line of Carpenters originates with Flemish or French merchants, who were active in England in the late 1200s. Richard Carpenter ‘chaundeler’, a probable outfitter of ships, lived on Fleetstreet along the Thames River. Likewise did Edward Carpenter (Charpenter) a wealthy wine importer and likely wool exporter. Only such a rich mercantile family could have gained the London Town Clerkship and subsequently financed the English crown itself. The evidence presented would suffice in any historical academic paper at Harvard or Yale. Finally, this evidence underlines the assertion of the 17th century historian Jean le Carpentier that the English Carpenters with arms originated in Flanders of the late 1200s. Sincerely, Bruce E. Carpenter professor

This morning I discovered what is perhaps the most import piece of information of the London Carpenter puzzle. I had discussed the merchant vintner family of Edward Carpenter, one of the richest families of London in the 1300s. I had wished to connect this family with a Richard Carpenter, but had previously been unable. My logic was that Town Clerk John Carpenter could only have come from a line of rich London area merchants, as did the mayors of London and those connected to the City Corporation. Previously I found a Richard Carpenter living in Fleetstreet London, an area close to the merchant vintners area of the city, at a time when he could easily have been the father of Town Clerk John. This morning I discovered that Edward Carpenter, merchant vintner, was likewise a Fleetstreet resident. The information comes from the 1291 Close Rolls for February 18th. “To the sheriff of Middlesex…….and Edward le Charpenter of the parish of St. Clement Danes….” The Church of St. Clement Danes was located on Fleetstreet. Edward le Charpenter had a known son Robert Carpenter. How Richard Carpenter might genealogically fit into this family I will leave to those who love the subject. My own interests are historical. I have no Carpenter genealogical agenda, but only wish to present to facts. Please accept this discoverery in good faith. Sincerely, Bruce E. Carpenter professor

Hello, John, <<Attached is what I have on the Morton descendancy line.>> The ancestry of George Morton is unknown. Robert Charles Anderson in his "The Great Migration Begins" gives as his origin simply "Leiden", which refers to his point of departure for these shores only. He was born "by about 1587 based on date of marriage", according to Anderson.. >>The Carpenters after about 1440 are fairly clear of who was whom. << It's the "fairly clear" which bothers me <smile> Are there original records to back up the information on these generations? All too frequently information was repeated from author to author without regard to actual citations. "The great Migration Begins" has an entry for Priscilla Carpenter, and she is mentioned as having been "born perhaps about 1598, daughter of Alexander Carpenter of Wrington, Somersetshire, and was one of five sisters who came to New England, or married men who came to New England, or both." Alexander Carpenter was a witness at Amsterdam to a marriage in 1600, and he was at Leiden by 1611. Anderson mentions no ancestry for him. >>The current discussion involves the time period of about 1250 to about 1400 AD.<< ...and a very interesting discussion it is! Claudia Cridland

Bruce, Ahhh, the trade of wool for wine, a most noble venture and quite necessary to the realm of both countries. It's hard to drink wool, and wine but keeps you warm for moments. :-) -- Norm