Hi Bette, There are just some things that are better off a printed page. Maps and articles with detail such as below travel and store alot better than electrons. Terry Lee Carpenter is now at <diluvius@flash.net>. I am also sending your E-Mail address and web page to the Carpenter forum. You have done the Carpenter Family a great service by your Carpenter Chronicles. Those Chronicles go into many a library for future researchers. I encourage every one to contribute. Thanks for helping others! John R. Carpenter La Mesa, CA Bette Butcher Topp http://www.cet.com/~toppline toppline@cet.com > Bette Butcher Topp wrote: > > Hi there - how did you come up with all those great ideas? Thanks > alot. Sounds good if I can find them all. I have re-vamped my office > again and that is why I haven't put out another CARPENTER CHRONICLES > issue for awhile. Now I have to get a new computer and after having > fits with this one, I will be glad to get that over with. > > I do have a zip drive - it is a 1.0gb - I have used it once or twice. > Same with my HP scanner - used it twice, I think. > > I am not sure that I have Raymond George C's article from the > Carpenter Journal. I didn't have all of the issues. > > I can use the scanned or original pictures - whatever is the very > easiest for you. I don't think this is all worth a booklet, do you? I > don't know - would have to have the material and lay it all out. Need > all of your ideas, John.. > > Haven't heard from Terry in quite awhile, has he been transferred > again. I am not sure that I have his latest email address. > > Just wish I had had all this knowledge on the Carpenter's when I was > in England in 1977. Sure would have helped.. huh? And if I haven't > mentioned it awhile - I really do appreciate all that you have shared > and contributed to the CHRONICLES. You have helped to make it > successful. And with the Internet, who knows how long it will last. It > seems now that researchers just want to take the info off the Web and > accept it all,. It is definitely a different world of research now. > > Bette > > Bette Butcher Topp > http://www.cet.com/~toppline > toppline@cet.com

There will be consequences of the bogus DeMelun-Carpenter history. The 2000 CD will appear in the marketplace. The conclusions in it will slowly become gospel in the popular mind. The guileless, the innocent, the uneducated, and the simple will all accept as fact they are descended from William DeMelun. They will all open a handy encyclopedia and begin to vomit. The real pity in all this is that it is absolutely false. Names have been changed and data cooked to support it. I can’t really understand the motive. Religious reasons seem a motive. Or is it that John wants to be the ‘big cheese’ of Carpenter genealogy? Let me assure you, he is pulling your leg. If he gets away with it, you let him. Bruce Carpenter

In a message dated 8/13/99 5:37:26 PM Pacific Daylight Time, carp@whidbey.com writes: << Doesn't truth or desception mean anything to youYours, Brucr Carpenter >> Truth means a great deal to me, but deception implies intent...that is where you are wrong. You may be correct as to the factual data, but you are WRONG to assign nefarious motives to someone who believes that what he has is also the truth. Since you are a Professor and obviously learned, I trust you will see the difference. Respectfully, Rich Watring

Dear Margaret, The Carpenter CD Project closes the end of the year 2000. Hopefully by the first quarter of 2001 will see it published for Carpenter Researchers. Sincerely, John R. Carpenter La Mesa, CA Maragret Cass wrote: > > The chart came out in gibberish. Can you resend it as a text (.txt) > file? > > Sorry, John, > I will mail the chart because I don't know enough about computers to email > it in another way. > I am impressed with all the information you and Bruce Carpenter are putting > on the list. Will it someday be published? > Margaret Cass

Dear Betty, Thank you for reminding us this forum is for all Carpenters whether they be begginners or well soiled. John R. Carpenter La Mesa, CA Lacey wrote: > > Is this list for ONLY the ancestry of John Carpenter Town Clerk of London? > Geez, Bruce. This was a bit harsh. > Not all of us are natural born genealogists. > I sure hope my side of Carps aren't the same as yours, or then I'd have > to turn into a troll watching the mailing lists! (JUST KIDDING!) > Be a gentleman and brighten up! > Betty Carpenter-McCulloch > > >I am sure Tony and family are nice people, but the fact is they have > nothing > >to contribute to the history of the ancestry of the family of John > Carpenter > >Town Clerk > >of London. > >For yourself, I feel you have much to contribute in the compilation of more > >modern > >genealogical data. You have a passion for it. That being said, I feel you > >should > >avoid anything before 1300. Your data is all wrong. I have told you this > >before. > >If you had the right training, languages and time to spend in > >Oxford, Cambridge and Paris libraries, you might begin to approach > >the true story. This subject of a medeival family is too difficult for you. > >Stick with the modern side of it. > >Even in an entirely inadequate medieval library collection, like the one > >here at the University > >of Washington, I was able to compile data you hadn't imagined. What will > >I find when I spend six months at the library of Oxford University? I > >suspect > >it would be much more in the same vein of what I have discovered already. > >Be a gentleman and admit you mistakes. > > > >Sincerely, > >Bruce E. Carpenter > >professor > > > >-----Original Message----- > >From: John Carpenter <jrcrin001@home.com> > >To: CARPENTER-L@rootsweb.com <CARPENTER-L@rootsweb.com> > >Date: Thursday, August 12, 1999 5:14 PM > >Subject: Re: Present English Carpenters > > > > > >>Dear Bruce, > >> > >>Of the present day Carpenters in England, many can not trace their > >>ancestry back more than a couple of hundred years. Some are descendant > >>of the French Hugenots, a later group of French Carpentiers, some who > >>were woodwrights that became Carpenter and even some American Loyalsts > >>who settled in England instead of Canada. > >> > >>A few lines however have some pretty good documentation and lineage back > >>to the same ancestors of the New England Carpenter line in England. > >>Such is the case of Tony Carpenter's ancestry in England. > >> > >>Tony Carpenter's family has had a couple of generations of his family > >>interested in genealogy. His ancestry data is pretty darn good. He > >>also does not have the biases of the American Carpenters who have read > >>or looked at the American versions of Carpenter ancestry. > >> > >>Tony also has dabbled in Coat of Arms in stained glass among other > >>things. From the documentation from his web page, he seems quite > >>intelligent, responsible and open minded. Let me quote from a very > >>small part of his personal history ... > >> > >>"On leaving the army, returned to my trade soon became foreman, manager, > >>then owned my own electrical business. Finally became an electrical > >>consultant." AND > >> > >>"I became a member of The Soceity of Patentees and inventors, as well as > >>several other engineering soceities, far too many to mention here. One > >>of my inventions was a method of engraving glass. This was the base of > >>my business, The Compleat Engaver International." AND > >> > >>"I am retired now and spend my days involved in all forms of art > >>including painting, woodcarving, Playwriting, poetry and even the start > >>of a novel. I am currently teaching art in the local village hall and > >>hope to put together a computer programme based on the course. 'learn to > >>paint watercolours from your computer'. I also designed a card game, > >>based on Golf, which one day I hope to get professionally produced, as > >>the family think it better than Trivial Pursuit! > >>I believe I was lucky to be born into this great Family of Carpenters, a > >>Family name to be proud of. I hope that all you that bear this name feel > >>the same. I can remember my Grandfather, who was an old soldier, saying > >>to me 'Never dishonor the name of Carpenter, bear it with pride as you > >>would a medal'." > >> > >>I agree that the name of CARPENTER is honorable and a name to be proud > >>of. We should all be proud of this ancient name. > >> > >> > >>Personaly, his insights and approach to the Carpenter puzzle is very > >>refreshing. > >> > >>Oh, by the way, Gill (short for Gillian) is Tony's spouse. Tony feels > >>blessed by her and her partnership in life. Tony signs his name as > >>"Tony" at the end of every message. > >> > >>A Carpenter Cousin, > >> > >>John R. Carpenter > >>La Mesa, CA USA > >> > >>Bruce E. Carpenter wrote: > >>> > >>> Is Gill Carpenter in England any relation to we Rehoboth > >>> Carpenters in the US? He seems to be eager to speak for all Carpenters > in > >>> England (and us as well), but surely no more than a fraction of the > >>> Carpenters left in England have any genetic connection to one another. > By > >>> the 1300 there were all manner of unconnected people using the surname > >>> Carpenter. It was also a popular alias for criminals. Then there were > the > >>> countless hammer and nails carpenters who used their profession as a > >>> surname. In English historical records there are countless examples of > >these > >>> people, whose deluded descendants now think they are part of some > ancient > >>> lineage. > >>> Thanks to excellent Massachusetts’s records I can trace my ancestors > back > >to > >>> the 1500s with certainty. Few people in England, outside the > aristocracy, > >>> can do this. The Carpenter > >>> Line back from Town Clerk John was a ‘denizen’ merchant family unrelated > >to > >>> all the other peasants with the surname in England. Any individual who > >wants > >>> you to believe the Carpenters of England are a grand big family is a > >>> nutcase. > >>> > >>> Sincerely, > >>> Bruce E. Carpenter > >> > > > > > >

Here's my 3 cents: 1. The recent vicious attack was crude and utterly inappropriate. Shame. 2. Although I have enjoyed the debates about our most ancient forebears as much as anyone, I suddenly have grave doubts about the veracity and reliability of all that went before. In spite of all the protestations of ultimate vindication by "history," it's clear there are some very deep and very dark motivations shaping the whole effort. Suddenly, the assertions are just too clouded by obvious ill-will and (now) explicit desire to recognize only suitable facts and admirable ancestors. 3. A little counseling or medication may be in order. RLC

In a message dated 8/13/99 12:13:47 PM Central Daylight Time, carp@whidbey.com writes: > Will the Carpenter family allow this insult to the family name for the purpose of > Mormon ideology? Speak up! > > Sincerely, > Bruce E. Carpenter I think it is good for you to question the validity of an ancestry claim, but I think it is wrong for you to imply the motive for such a mistake. Those of us who have been at this awhile know how sparse our databases would be without the contributions made by earnest Mormon's, not the least of which is the GEDCOM format used all over the world. The tone of your email seems mean-spirited. For me, your tirade has much more impact on my opinion of you that anything an ancestor from the 11th century could have done. Rich Watring (8th Great Grandson of Susanna CHARPENTIER)

JLC: A great find!...Greenwood's divorce, correcting the mistaken widower entry. I wish all researchers would share such corrections to the various published (and widely subscribed) compilations. I'm also curious--just how did you come across this great little tidbit? RLC

Hi Bruce, What I realize is that there is no control of who was our ancestors! So what if DeMelun was a mass murderer. Even if he or whoever proves that DeMelun is in this line of Carpenters, are you going to leave that out of your genealogy? There's a black sheep in every family. Lord knows I have a few in my own other lines. We cannot leave out the boogymen, murderers, thieves and cantankerous women in our lines. They do exist! Your statement of "we do not wish to have our family history begin with one of the most despicable men in history". That is the most ridiculous statement I've heard in years. If it is your wish NOT to include a despicable man in your history, then why do genealogy at all? And the statements that you made against a Mormon genealogist is WAY off base. Are you ignorant to religious beliefs? If it is the Mormon belief to redeem ancestors, then so be it! You cannot nor will you ever change it. Betty Carpenter-McCulloch > >There is more going on than you realize. John Carpenter is >a Mormon genealogist who wants to establish that we MA and RI >Carpenters are descendants of a 1100s French knight Guillalume >le Carpentier DeMelun. DeMelun was a sadist mass murderer. There >is not one bit of evidence he is connected to later Carpenters. >However Mormons believe even a wrong genealogy is a good one in >order to baptise and thereby redeem possible relatives. This >Mormon geneaology will go public as a year 2000 CD. Will we then >all have to live with our sadist ancestor. Sorry to distract >you from your normal private interests and concerns. >Sincerely, >Bruce E. Carpenter

Hello Bruce, I am another Mormon or member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints as I am sure many Carpenter researchers on this list are. I find your comments bigted, misguided and totally inappropiate. Who are you? Professor of what and where? How dare you speak for the list? Sharon Garrett Genealogists never die they just lose their census.

Hi Jeannie and Betsey, I can't help either of you but you inspired me to post my brick wall again. Am looking for absolutely anything on John C. Carpenter b. abt. 1807, probably in VA, married a Margaret A. Married and lived in Van Wert County, OH. Beth

Dear Bruce, Your extreme bias about having a possible ancestor, William "the carpenter" De Melun who was a sadist mass- murderer and twice deserter of the crusades is showing. William "the carpenter" De Melun, a historical figure may or may not be the ancestor of the Carpenters who went to England. If you had taken the time to read the NOTES you would have seen the word "SPECULATION" along with "BELIEVED TO BE" in the connecting generations. It is a theory, speculation or opinion that individuals from point A to point B are related. This is clearly stated in my data files. For you to ignore this, the notes which state such and with your jumping to wrong conclusions of anyone (saying John L. Carpenter is me - That Tony Carpenter in the UK is Gil for example) who begs to differ with you is inappropriate. When you resort to defamation of character, insults and mud slinging to prove or disprove something ... all you do is discredit your self and anything you submit. You come across bluntly as a bigot. I have tried to have patience with you over these last several years. You have provided bits and pieces of good data but your childish behavior is wrong. I suggest you act appropriately as fitting a man of your age and education. John R. Carpenter La Mesa, CA USA Bruce E. Carpenter wrote: > > What is the argument really about? At issue is the assertion > the Massachusetts and Rhode Island Carpenters are > descendants of an 11th century French knight William ‘The > Carpenter’ DeMelun. DeMelun was a sadist mass- murderer and twice deserter > of the crusades. The individual who is pushing this groundless and > distasteful theory intends to include it in his Year 2000 CD. This > individual is a Mormon genealogist who believes in baptism of the dead, an > ideology that hopes for the salvation of dead ancestors through proxy > baptism. Even a completely wrong list of ancestors is something to be > encouraged in the hope that, if a genealogy is correct, there then can be > religious redemption for departed relatives. This is fine for believers, but > for the rest of us, we do not wish to have our family history begin with one > of the most despicable men in history, particularly when the whole matter is > baseless. The genealogist interested in this theory will stop at nothing. He > is uninterested in historical truth and will listen to no objections to his > obsession. For myself, I feel that there is family honor involved here. This > Mornmon may think he is saving his ancestors, but he is insulting mine. Will > the Carpenter family allow this insult to the family name for the purpose of > Mormon ideology? Speak up! > > Sincerely, > Bruce E. Carpenter

I was not going to add my two cents here, but this just continues on and on! I have been involved in Genealogy for 35 years, and to me proof is when you have a piece of paper in your hand that proves your claim. Nothing Less Will Do. I recently became very upset over finding that an ancestor of mine, JOHN CARPENTER OF UPSON, CO., GA, had been entered in the LDS library. I pass my work out to anyone that wants it. So that was really no problem. I worked for years and years to research and document this man. Documentation that would stand anywhere.... THE PROBLEM WAS THAT THEY ATTACHED A JOHN M. CARPENTER TO HIM AS HIS FATHER, WHICH IN TURNED HOOKED HIM IN TO A WHOLE ANCESTRAL LINE. A LINE THAT HE DOES NOT BELONG TO. ONE THAT IS NOT IN THE LEAST BELIEVABLE. I am not even sure I can ever undo the damage that was done by this.

I too am involved in a lengthy "historically important" research debacle. Because there is no "conclusive" answer (i.e.: documents such as wills or written verbiage to "prove" anything I gather is considered circumstantial evidence. Every other researcher can either agree or disagree with my findings. I base my case on very tangible evidence..but be that as it may...it is NOT fact..circumstantial evidence at best. To Bruce and John...I respect you both. You are thorough researchers who both have the best intentions..HOWEVER...Bruce....I find your arrogance demeaning to your research. You almost had me sold until you lambasted John in a very vicious way. Reaching back to other ancient sayings..."Doth does protest too loudly" and with that comes the thought that perhaps you are not an open minded researcher but rather a person who must be right at all costs. We are each capable of making up our own minds based on evidence presented...just because YOU say it is so, does not make it a truth. A fact is a fact, circumstantial is still circumstanial. Please get back to everyone posting their research findings and let us all draw our own conclusions. Name calling, religious slander does not belong in true academia nor genealogical research..nor anywhere else for that matter. Laurie Carpenter (a Carpenter thru maternal and paternal and marital.. 6 ways...and if my original is found to be a scoundrel......so WHAT?????? I am not...it is present action that concerns me most!)

What is the argument really about? At issue is the assertion the Massachusetts and Rhode Island Carpenters are descendants of an 11th century French knight William ‘The Carpenter’ DeMelun. DeMelun was a sadist mass- murderer and twice deserter of the crusades. The individual who is pushing this groundless and distasteful theory intends to include it in his Year 2000 CD. This individual is a Mormon genealogist who believes in baptism of the dead, an ideology that hopes for the salvation of dead ancestors through proxy baptism. Even a completely wrong list of ancestors is something to be encouraged in the hope that, if a genealogy is correct, there then can be religious redemption for departed relatives. This is fine for believers, but for the rest of us, we do not wish to have our family history begin with one of the most despicable men in history, particularly when the whole matter is baseless. The genealogist interested in this theory will stop at nothing. He is uninterested in historical truth and will listen to no objections to his obsession. For myself, I feel that there is family honor involved here. This Mornmon may think he is saving his ancestors, but he is insulting mine. Will the Carpenter family allow this insult to the family name for the purpose of Mormon ideology? Speak up! Sincerely, Bruce E. Carpenter

JohnR: Hey, what's this about a 1915 PA census??? Never heard of it! Can you tell more? What info does it cover (same or diff from U.S. Census)? Is it available on-line? If not, where/how available? Is there an index? Robin

Some Carpenter Glen Cove History >Dear Carpenters , > > >A bit of the Hamlet of Musketa Cove, Town of Oyster Bay (now known as the >City of Glen Cove) early history concerning a young Rhode Island inhabitant >named Joseph Carpenter who purchased 2,000 acres of land on May 24, 1668 in >the then northwest section of the Town of Oyster Bay from the Matinecock >Indians in order to erect a saw mill. > > >"On May 24, 1668, a young Rhode Island inhabitant named Joseph Carpenter >purchased 2,000 acres of land to the northwest of the Town of Oyster Bay from >the Matinecock Indians. His intention was to erect a saw mill and furnish New >York City with lumber desperately needed for the construction of housing. > >Carpenter took in as partners in his venture three brothers: Robert, Daniel, >and Nathaniel Coles, who were also former inhabitants of Rhode Island living >in Oyster Bay; and Nicholas Simkins, also of Oyster Bay. > >These five businessmen chose to retain the place-name by which the Matinecock >Indians had known the area, and therefore styled themselves "The Five >Proprietors of Musketa Cove Plantation." Musketa (also spelled "rnusquito") >translates from the Matinecock's language to roughly mean "the place of >rushes." > >Within a rather short time, the "Five Proprietors" had dammed a small stream >that ran through the valley, whose course is roughly paralleled by Glen >Street today. This dam was located near the foot of Mill Hill, slightly >northeast of the present fire department on a spot marked by a memorial >plaque. > >On the dam was erected the saw mill, which by an early. covenant between the >"Five Proprietors" was jointly owned by each of them, and a small grist mill >which was constructed by Joseph Carpenter under the condition that he grind >the grain of the other proprietors "well and tolle free for ever." (Millers >were remunerated for their services by receiving a percentage of the finished >flour as payment... usually about 10 per cent). > >The lumber produced by the saw mill found a ready market in New York City, >which had used up most of the indigenous trees on Manhattan Island rather >quickly. By l679, just two years after Carpenter's purchase from the Indians >was officially ratified by the colonial New York govemment, the mill was >producing nine different thicknesses of boards and timber, as well as tile >laths, shingle laths, wainscott, "feather-edged" boards for panelling, and >custom-cut walnut for cabinet-making. > >A small portion of the mill's accounts were recorded in the "Musketa Cove >Proprietor's Book," a hand- written record of the early settlers' land >transactions and agreements. The accounts indicate that one of the major >purchasers of Musketa Cove lumber was Jacob Leisler, a prosperous New York >City merchant who would, in 1689, overthrow the colonial government of the >colony and, in 1691, would be executed for treason. > >However, it appears that Leisler did not forget his acquaintances in Musketa >Cove during his reign as ad-hoc governor in New York, he appointed Robert >Coles as Captain in the Oyster Bay Militia." > >. Early History of Glen Cove >. City of Glen Cove Web Site > > >I obtained the above information while perusing the City of Glen Cove web >site: > ><A HREF="http://www.glencove-li.com/">City of Glen Cove</A> > >If your clicker does not work that well, type in: > >http://www.glencove-li.com/ > > >While perusing, I wandered over to government section that has information on >the early history of the City of Glen Cove and clicked on: > ><A HREF="http://www.glencove-li.com/channels/Government/index.cfm?id=13">City >of Glen Cove - Government</A> > >If your clicker does not work that well, then type in: > >http://www.glencove-li.com/channels/Government/index.cfm?id=13 > > > >L'Shannah Tova, > >Walter Greenspan > > > > > >----------------------- >

What is the argument really about? At issue is the assertion the Massachusetts and Rhode Island Carpenters are descendants of an 11th century French knight William ‘The Carpenter’ DeMelun. DeMelun was a sadist mass- murderer and twice deserter of the crusades. The individual who is pushing this groundless and distasteful theory intends to include it in his Year 2000 CD. This individual is a Mormon genealogist who believes in baptism of the dead, an ideology that hopes for the salvation of dead ancestors through proxy baptism. Even a completely wrong list of ancestors is something to be encouraged in the hope that, if a genealogy is correct, there then can be religious redemption for departed relatives. This is fine for believers, but for the rest of us, we do not wish to have our family history begin with one of the most despicable men in history, particularly when the whole matter is baseless. The genealogist interested in this theory will stop at nothing. He is uninterested in historical truth and will listen to no objections to his obsession. For myself, I feel that there is family honor involved here. This Mornmon may think he is saving his ancestors, but he is insulting mine. Will the Carpenter family allow this insult to the family name for the purpose of Mormon ideology? Speak up! Sincerely, Bruce E. Carpenter

Hi Betsy Looking at your Catherine Francis Carpenter. Not mine, BUT my major brick wall is a Catherine Capenter/Katherine Taylor mess! These may be the same women according to some, but they also may be different women according to others. One or the other or both married Lebbeus/Libeus/Gibeus FORDYCE/FORDICE/FOREDYCE/FOREDICE. One or both may have been mother/mothers/stepmother/stepmothers to Helen and Abigail FORDYCE/FORDICE/FOREDYCE/FOREDICE. Lebbeus/Libeus/Gibeus is father and or stepfather to one or both of these 1/2 sisters. SOS! Jeannie :) Publisher of The Jericho Wall Genealogy Newsletter. In a message dated 8/13/1999 10:54:40 AM Pacific Daylight Time, RICEYS5@aol.com writes: << Hi all! Here is my line again. I hope someone recognizes it (fingers crossed). I would like to add IMHO, I will be happy to get my line of Carpenter back another generation. I will leave the "earliest" history of some Carpenter line to others. I think the name calling and mudslinging is most unfortuate and disheartening. George W. Carpenter married 28 Mar 1816 Harrison County, OH to Rebecca Louise (Louisa) Clow died Jan 1860 Children: John Carpenter, b. abt 1825 OH, m. 29 Oct 1854 to Caroline Ferrell Putnam County, OH. d. 19 Mar 1881 Putnam County, OH Catherine Frances Carpenter, b. 23 Nov 1818 OH, m. 24 Mar 1840 Azor Bunyan Wayne county, OH, d. IL Susannah Carpenter, b. abt. 1830, m. Joshua Huntsman Isaac Carpenter, b. OH, married Elizabeth Fisher Putnam County, OH Mary Carpenter, b. 15 apr 1816, married John Smith, lived in Ashland County, OH Benjamin Carpenter, b. 3 Jul 1821 OH Sarah Carpenter, b. abt. 1824, m. William Greenlee Edward Carpenter, b. abt. 1827, m. 23 Mar 1871 Mary Arnold Sophia Carpenter, b. abt 1828, m. 1st James A. Copeland 2nd William S. Bunyan I will be happy to share my documentation and 20+ years of work with others. Betsy McGee Rice Riceys5@aol.com >>

Hi all! Here is my line again. I hope someone recognizes it (fingers crossed). I would like to add IMHO, I will be happy to get my line of Carpenter back another generation. I will leave the "earliest" history of some Carpenter line to others. I think the name calling and mudslinging is most unfortuate and disheartening. George W. Carpenter married 28 Mar 1816 Harrison County, OH to Rebecca Louise (Louisa) Clow died Jan 1860 Children: John Carpenter, b. abt 1825 OH, m. 29 Oct 1854 to Caroline Ferrell Putnam County, OH. d. 19 Mar 1881 Putnam County, OH Catherine Frances Carpenter, b. 23 Nov 1818 OH, m. 24 Mar 1840 Azor Bunyan Wayne county, OH, d. IL Susannah Carpenter, b. abt. 1830, m. Joshua Huntsman Isaac Carpenter, b. OH, married Elizabeth Fisher Putnam County, OH Mary Carpenter, b. 15 apr 1816, married John Smith, lived in Ashland County, OH Benjamin Carpenter, b. 3 Jul 1821 OH Sarah Carpenter, b. abt. 1824, m. William Greenlee Edward Carpenter, b. abt. 1827, m. 23 Mar 1871 Mary Arnold Sophia Carpenter, b. abt 1828, m. 1st James A. Copeland 2nd William S. Bunyan I will be happy to share my documentation and 20+ years of work with others. Betsy McGee Rice Riceys5@aol.com