-----I don't think this discussion should be about religous beliefs of any genealogist If you have facts and he has facts fine .But lets not start trowing stones at glass houses. I have attended many churches in my lifetime and approached by others. I don't think this mormon idealogy has anything to do with facts regardless of there practice. I think the presentation of facts on both sides should be put out & those of us can pick and choose our own beliefs. As far as the crusdes go it was in my belief the same as what is going on in palestine today another Holy war. If we our christians murdering for the name of god for the church what are they doing but the same thing different names. I have been to war 2 X there are no good guys & bad guys ther is them and there is us,Survival of the fittest, king of the hill John L. Carpenter Searching for Carpenter family decendants of William Carpenter of Providence, RI check my home pages at the following URL's http://www.familytreemaker.com/users/c/a/r/John-L-Carpenter/index.html http://expage.com/page/carpenterlinks http://homepages.msn.com/PicnicPl/jcarp45

Dear Louis, I'm sorry but I do not have what you requested. However, if you finish the bulk of your research before the end of the year 2000, I would be happy to add it to the Carpenter CD Project. This way future researchers can use it as a research tool. As a submitter you will be given a credit tag in the notes. You control what is submitted. Let me know if you are interested. John R. Carpenter La Mesa, CA USA LouisSMU@aol.com wrote: > > Fellow Carpenter researchers: > > I am working with some outstanding researcher who let me tag along in > researching the 1700-1800 Carpenters of NC especially Isaac Carpenter's of > Halifax (b. 1764, d. 1837). Our research has led us into the Tidewater area > of VA. > > I know people hate broad questions, but here goes anyway. Does anyone have > any wills, deeds, probate, marriage bonds, etc. in Isle of Wight County > and/or Surrey County of VA for CARPENTERS in the 1600's to later 1700's? > > Thanks in advance > > Louis Carpenter

Will the owner of the Carpenter site please contact me at kmorris@hroads.net ? Thanks, Keith Morris...in Suffolk, VA

Dear Donny, Bigot - A person who is utterly intolerant of any differing creed, belief or opinion that differs from from one's own. The word comes from 1590-1600 MF and comes from the older OF which was used as a derogatory name applied by the French to the Normans. Bigotry - 1) Stubborn and complete intolerance of any creed, belief or opinion that differs from one's own. 2) The actions, beliefs, prejudices, etc., of a bigot. Syn. 1. narrow mindedness, bias, discrimination. 2. intollerant. This per page 206 of the Webster's New Universal Unabridged Dictionary 1996 printed by Barnes & Noble. Per page 1544 of the same; Professor - 1) a teacher of the highest academic rank in a college or university, who has been awarded the title Professor in a pacticular branch of learning; a full professor: a professor of Spainish Literature. 2) any teacher who has the rank of professor, associate professor, or assistant professor. 3) a teacher. 4) an instructor in some art or skilled sport: a professor of singing; a professor of boxing. 5) a person who professes his or her sentiments, beliefs, etc. The word comes from the 1350-1400 ME - ML professor one who has taken the vows of a religious order, L a public lecturer, equiv. to pro + fet-, comb. form of fateri to acknowledge, declare + tor- with it. Thus a Professor 5) of Bigotry 1) is accurate. I hope this clears up the definition. Sincerely, John R. Carpenter La Mesa, CA USA Bruce E. Carpenter wrote: > > What is bigoted about my statement? It states in simple terms > basic Mormon tennants and beliefs. These beliefs are the basis > of their concern with genealogy, and also the reason behind > the mistakes they make when they practise it. Your letter to > me was emotional. There is a real issue at stake here > with my Carpenter family. By the way, my dictionary definition > for 'bigoted' is, "intolerantly convinced of a particular creed." > Sincerely, > Bruce Carpenter > -----Original Message----- > From: DonnyPerry@aol.com <DonnyPerry@aol.com> > To: carp@whidbey.com <carp@whidbey.com> > Date: Friday, August 13, 1999 2:28 PM > Subject: Re: Mormon Ideology > > >In a message dated 08/13/1999 12:13:42 PM Central Daylight Time, > >carp@whidbey.com writes: > > > ><< intends to include it in his Year 2000 CD. This > > individual is a Mormon genealogist who believes in baptism of the dead, an > > ideology that hopes for the salvation of dead ancestors through proxy > > baptism. Even a completely wrong list of ancestors is something to be > > encouraged in the hope that, if a genealogy is correct >> > > > >What are you a professor of? Bigotry? > > > >Donny Perry (incidentally not a Mormon)

Looking for Ruben Carpenter b. unknown d. unknown m. poss. Mary unknown Children of Ruben and Mary: William b. abt 23 dec 1830>Greencastle Indiana d. 14 nov 1902>Exira IO m. Martha Johnston abt. 1856 John was in Brownell KAN in 1902 David was in Spokane WA in 1902 Lucindia b. 12 jan 1847>poss IO d. 29 feb 1912>Brandish NEB. m. James BIRGE 22 mar 1682>Guthrie Co. IO Sara Ann b. abt 9 mar 1849>Coons Rapid Indiana d. 11 jan 1874>Exira IO m. James Luckinbill Elijah was in Gazelle CALIF in 1902 Frank was in Brownell KA in 1902 Henry was in Brownell in 1902 Reuben was in Brownell in 1902 Anything on this family will be a great help. I must comment on the comments of John and Bruce. My hat goes off to both of you for tracing your Carpenter lineage back that far. However when did religeous beliefs determine the way you research. Everyone has different beliefs. You are entitled to that. Name calling etc. get no one no where. I hope some day I can get past my Rueben and don't even dream of getting as far as you gentlemen. But if I do find a rat in the woodpile so what. I'm not responsible for the doings of those gone before me. Elizabeth

Hi Donna: I would be interested in knowing which Carpenter's (other than the ones mentioned) are connected to your Cantrell line. My great-grandmother was a Cantrell from Stephenson County, Illinois. Her daughter, my grandmother married a Carpenter from Black Earth, Dane County, Wisconsin. Linda Carpenter Fry Richland Center, Wisconsin John Carpenter wrote: > Donna, > > Have you checked the 1920 Federal Census for PA? > Or the 1910 Federal Census Or the 1915 PA State Census? > > John R. Carpenter > La Mesa, CA > > SlwHand110@aol.com wrote: > > > > I have one for u, and been hitting a road block with it concerning the > > Carpenter family, which is also in my Cantrell family line. I have a Robert > > Edward Carpenter Whom married a Mary A. Taylor in Chester Pennsylvania ... > > but since none of the family here remembers any dates, as to when, I don't > > have any dates of birth, death, or the marriage.... I was told that Mary A. > > Taylor was either born in Rock Island Illinois or in Chester Pa. I have tried > > every search engine possible and nothing. Its like they never excised! There > > were five children born.Their children were: 1)Son died in infancy 2) William > > m- Martha he died in Southern Fla. 3) Bernard Robert b- 8 Feb, 1918 m- > > Virginia Farina , and then later moved to Newark NJ, where their five > > children were born. 4) James resides in Louisville Kentucky 5) Vincent m- > > Loretta he died in New Jersey. ( all born in Chester Pa) If you can help, it > > will be most appreciated, and very helpful. I am at a crossroads and not > > moving at all with the Carpenters..Appricate any help. > > thank u and god bless, > > Donna

Dear Laurie, Well said. It is important to remember that this is an open forum for all. As the bits and pieces of the Carpenter puzzle comes in, our opinion of what it is will change. When enough data comes in and is shared the truth will be known. Thank you, John R. Carpenter La Mesa, CA USA LorenMC1@aol.com wrote: > > I too am involved in a lengthy "historically important" research debacle. > Because there is no "conclusive" answer (i.e.: documents such as wills or > written verbiage to "prove" anything I gather is considered circumstantial > evidence. Every other researcher can either agree or disagree with my > findings. > I base my case on very tangible evidence..but be that as it may...it is NOT > fact..circumstantial evidence at best. > To Bruce and John...I respect you both. You are thorough researchers who both > have the best intentions..HOWEVER...Bruce....I find your arrogance demeaning > to your research. You almost had me sold until you lambasted John in a very > vicious way. > Reaching back to other ancient sayings..."Doth does protest too loudly" and > with that comes the thought that perhaps you are not an open minded > researcher but rather a person who must be right at all costs. We are each > capable of making up our own minds based on evidence presented...just because > YOU say it is so, does not make it a truth. A fact is a fact, circumstantial > is still circumstanial. > Please get back to everyone posting their research findings and let us all > draw our own conclusions. Name calling, religious slander does not belong in > true academia nor genealogical research..nor anywhere else for that matter. > > Laurie Carpenter > (a Carpenter thru maternal and paternal and marital.. 6 ways...and if my > original is found to be a scoundrel......so WHAT?????? I am not...it is > present action that concerns me most!)

Dear Tony, Thank you for comments and unbiased view. The early part of the Carpenter Family is mostly speculation, as I have repeatly said. This is clearly stated in my files. There is no absolute proof that person A was related to person B in the early part of the puzzle (except where historical data states there is). We may have opinion, or speculate, but we have no real proof of the truth. For the truth to come out, everyone should be able to contribute without fear of condemnation or feeling foolish. There are beginners and those veterans of decades of research. There should be no stupid or foolish questions. We should all share and help each other on the puzzle. Genealogy is a hobby for most of us, it should be fun and exciting. It should be like a giant jig saw puzzle. When we add a piece here and there we speculate on what it appears to be. I would like to apologise for thinking I needed to respond to Bruce. I should have known (over the last couple of years) of his thinking. I will try to continue a professional and helpful approach to anyone contributing or wanting help on the Carpenter puzzle. Thank you, John R. Carpenter La Mesa, CA > Gill M Carpenter wrote: > > Hi John, > Atached is copy of a missive sent to Bruce. You must both appreciate > that we have no animosity in this dispute. I know that Bruce appears > to have stepped over the mark, and does seem to have a chip on his > shoulder about the Church connection. The way he has stated it is > completely wrong. Before dismissing the Crusaders as mass murderers > he needs to look into his own back yard, and as a professor of history > he should know that there are no saints and no sinners, it is all a > degree of interpretation. > > > Dear Bruce, > We are extremely concerned about the animosity which seems to be > breaking out in connection with the family research. There is no gain > to be made from name calling or proving if one person or another is > right. We all have skeletons of one sort or another in our > cupboards. You believe that the Crusaders were mass murderers, > history shows they were cruel in the way in which they handled the > vanquished, that was the way of that particular period of time. In > the 20th century we should not judge them. As a historian, I will ask > you to dwell on a much later period than this, where do you stand when > it comes down to the history of your own country, the way in which the > immigrants to America treated the native American Indians, rifles > against bows and arrows, not to mention measles and other diseases > introduced from Europe. At least the Crusaders were man to man, hand > to hand combat. > In this country we tend to live and breathe history, one of the local > inns which we use when we go for an occasional pint of good > traditional English Ale is well over 500 years old, as we told friends > of ours in Florida, when Ponce de Leon discovered Florida our local > pub had been serving ale to the locals for more than twenty years - > does this put things in perspective? > I hope that we can call an amicable and honourable truce, and all work > to an end, that is as true an account of the Carpenter History as we > can possibly ascertain, warts and all. I have read of the Rehoboth > Carpenters, and have noted that the family was involved in the Militia > of the day. > Tony [and his WIFE, Gill]

Heaven knows that we all wish that PA had done censuses for the years ending in 5, but they didn't, at least not in Erie or Crawford Counties. Cheri

Dear Bruce and John, I have really been enjoying this list, as not only have I been able to make some connections, but due to the information posted by both of you on the pre-US Carpenters/Carpentiers, etc. But GENTLEMEN, I believe that you both have the right to your opinions of what is fact, theory or an educated guess and from what I can see, you should agree to disagree until John either proves he has all the facts or Bruce gets to do his 6 months in England and proves all the correct facts are his. In the meantime Bruce, I feel that you are acting beneath your stature as a professor in trying to put someone, who may not have the opportunities of doing research where you can, down because it makes you feel superior. Remember that Pride cometh before a Fall. I don't have the facilities time or ambition to do what either of you are doing on just one line as I have at least 15 lines I'm working on between my own, my husbands and my late stepdad's, so I salute you both for your efforts. But please don't let your discussions become more heated and derogatory. Instead just keep on doing what your doing and God Bless you both. Just a person who continues to learn something every day, because the first day I don't learn something, I'm probably dead. Cheri Nolen hungypsy@erie.net

Dear Wylene, I have had the same thing happen. A relative submitted my line to the Ancestral File with the wrong ancestry. Changes to the Ancestral file takes time (all the correcters are volunteers) and they told me last year they have several years of work backed up. The supervisor stated to me it is easier to submit my entire data line with notes stating the changes and why. He encouraged me to standardized the data as much as possible. The following web address has a button for contributing data. http://www.familysearch.org/ I hope this helps fro one who has been there. John R. Carpenter La Mesa, CA WyleneL@aol.com wrote: > > I was not going to add my two cents here, but this just continues on and on! > > I have been involved in Genealogy for 35 years, and to me proof is when you > have a piece of paper in your hand that proves your claim. Nothing Less Will > Do. > > I recently became very upset over finding that an ancestor of mine, JOHN > CARPENTER OF UPSON, CO., GA, had been entered in the LDS library. I pass my > work out to anyone that wants it. So that was really no problem. I worked > for years and years to research and document this man. Documentation that > would stand anywhere.... THE PROBLEM WAS THAT THEY ATTACHED A JOHN M. > CARPENTER TO HIM AS HIS FATHER, WHICH IN TURNED HOOKED HIM IN TO A WHOLE > ANCESTRAL LINE. A LINE THAT HE DOES NOT BELONG TO. ONE THAT IS NOT IN THE > LEAST BELIEVABLE. > > I am not even sure I can ever undo the damage that was done by this. > >

In a message dated 8/13/99 9:10:48 PM US Mountain Standard Time, agauld@gtii.com writes: << Come on. Lets get back to genealogy. Enough is enough. Thanks :) Anita ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Anita (nee: Merlo) Gauld Anita_Gauld@Hotmail.Com ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ >> Amen!!!!!! Couldn't have said it better myself!!!! Thank you Anita!

Dear Robin, Amos B. Carpenter proved that the entire thing was just a scam. It is described in the appendix of the Carpenter Memorial. So (e) disproven entirely is correct. I agree with you that there may have been some anglo-aristophilic pride involved. This evidenced also by the exclusion of those who did not think or act like them (IE the Loyalsts of the American Revolution and those "rebels" who fought for the Confederacy). Also the searching of the right "Coat of Arms" for the right Carpenter line to claim them from a deceased lineage in England seems to support the same. Thanks! John R. Carpenter La Mesa, CA Robin Carpenter wrote: > > JRC: > In your recent message to Linda, you referred to the "great fortune" some > turn-of-the-century Carpenter researchers hoped to claim. I remember > reading of this treasure hunt (probably in the intro to "Carpenter > Memorial"...which portion I haven't reviewed in some time; maybe elsewhere, > too.) > I'm wondering whether you kow what became of that forlorn hope. Not that > I'm trying to revive the chimera...but I'm curious as to how the story ends. > Here are some possibilities: > (a) they found it, but the "fortune" wasn't worth it. > (b) found it, but couldn't get it. > (c) never could find it. > (d) someone found it, but claimed it and kept it himself. > (e) disproven entirely. > RLC > P.S. In addition to the $$$, it seems to me there was also a kind of > anglo-aristophilic pride involved. We'd all like having a king or famous > admiral (or at lease a duke or baronet) among our forebears, but I think the > turn-of-the-century ethos valued such connections far more than we do today. > Thus the great effort in "Carpenter Memorial" to lay American claim to > English coat of arms.

JRC: In your recent message to Linda, you referred to the "great fortune" some turn-of-the-century Carpenter researchers hoped to claim. I remember reading of this treasure hunt (probably in the intro to "Carpenter Memorial"...which portion I haven't reviewed in some time; maybe elsewhere, too.) I'm wondering whether you kow what became of that forlorn hope. Not that I'm trying to revive the chimera...but I'm curious as to how the story ends. Here are some possibilities: (a) they found it, but the "fortune" wasn't worth it. (b) found it, but couldn't get it. (c) never could find it. (d) someone found it, but claimed it and kept it himself. (e) disproven entirely. RLC P.S. In addition to the $$$, it seems to me there was also a kind of anglo-aristophilic pride involved. We'd all like having a king or famous admiral (or at lease a duke or baronet) among our forebears, but I think the turn-of-the-century ethos valued such connections far more than we do today. Thus the great effort in "Carpenter Memorial" to lay American claim to English coat of arms.

Dear John L., This is interesting. Anything you supply will be placed in notes with a credit tag for you, as always. The historical picture of divorce really has changed, hasn't it? John R. Carpenter La Mesa, CA regarding: INDIVIDUAL DATA RIN:19409 - --------------------------------------------------------- Name:Greenwood CARPENTER Sex:M ID No: Birth:31 Mar 1733 Place:Rehoboth,Bristol,MA Chr: Place: Marr:10 Feb 1753 Spouse:Sarah OR Sally LEATHERS-19450 Marr:Abt 1773 Spouse:Susanna HAMMOND-19324 Marr: Spouse: Death: 3 Feb 1809 Place:Swansey,,NH Burial: Place: Father:Ezra CARPENTER-12843 Mother:Elizabeth GREENWOOD-12850 Notes ------------------------------------------------- !Number 488 in the Carpenter Memorial on page 101. Greenwood married twice. (1753 & by 1773) His first residence was in Charlestown, MA. First child born in 1752. Then they moved to Swansey, NH. His estate was taxed in Charlestown, MA in 1756. About 1756 he moved to Sawansey. Four of his children were born in Charlestown and the remainder in Swansey, NH. ... end. **************************************************** John L. Carpenter wrote: > > In the Carpenter Memorial page 101 Greenwood Carpenter ( #488) son of Ezra > Carpenter of Swanzey,Cheshire NH It stated he moved to Swanzey NH prob ably > " After the Death of his first wife Sarah ( Sally) Leathers of Charlestown > ,Mass. > The truth is she walked out on him and the children ,Married with someone > and had a child with him .In 1771 ,Greenwood ,Petitioned the General > Assembly of NH for a > a Divorce and on April 5th was granted . " The said Greenwood Carpenter, > is hereby Declared to be at liberty to Marry again as tho' the said Sarah > was Deceased . " Must been passed on that sally had died. further text > avail if anyone interested. This was the 2 nd such divorcee in the colonial > colony of New Hampshire the other was in 1703 Not a Carpenter. > > John in NH > Breaking up Was hard to do then > > John L. Carpenter > Searching for Carpenter family decendants > of William Carpenter of Providence, RI > check my home pages at the following URL's > > http://www.familytreemaker.com/users/c/a/r/John-L-Carpenter/index.html > > http://expage.com/page/carpenterlinks

Is there a list master/owner of the Carpenter list? If so, I would like to have the e-mail address. PENNYPEACE@prodigy.net

Dear Stan, Here is a quick screen shot from the main data file. ALPHABETIC BROWSE +----------------------------------+ ¦CARPENTER,John Webster-39486 ¦Name:John WesleyCARPENTER-32061 ¦CARPENTER,John Webster Curtis-25203¦ Sex:M ID No: ¦CARPENTER,John Wesley-45833 ¦ Birth: 3 Jan 1892 ¦CARPENTER,John Wesley-34339 ¦ Place: ¦CARPENTER,John Wesley-40487 ¦ Chr: ¦CARPENTER,John Wesley-32061 <----¦ Place: ¦CARPENTER,John Wesley-31813 ¦ Death:16 Jun 1971 ¦CARPENTER,John Wesley-21101 ¦ Place: ¦CARPENTER,John Wesley-31856 ¦Burial: ¦CARPENTER,John Wesley-11094 ¦ Place: ¦CARPENTER,John Wesley-47094 ¦ ¦CARPENTER,John Wesly-10072 ¦ ¦CARPENTER,John Whipple-35324 ¦ ¦CARPENTER,John White-22023 ¦ ¦CARPENTER,John Whitefield-23411 ¦Father:Alonzo Van A CARPENTER-32020 ¦CARPENTER,John Wiegner-13887 ¦Mother:Sarah Delilah HANSON-32060 ¦CARPENTER,John Willard-44236 ¦Spouse: ¦CARPENTER,John William-33800 ¦Spouse: ¦CARPENTER,John William-34424 ¦Spouse: - ------------------------------------------------------------------- Have you submitted your genealogy to the Carpenter CD Project? You control the amount and what is and not submitted. Remember relationships are more important than who went to which school. Confidential data should be kept at a minimun. Some people supply month and year of birth instead of full dates of those living with out locations for privacy. The Carpenter CD is for future researchers like our grandchildren. John R. Carpenter La Mesa, CA > Stan Carpenter wrote: > > Hello, I've been following the Carpenters for quite some time and > thought I'd get my two cents in. My father was John Wesley Carpenter, > and my youngest son the same, he has a son John Wyatt. I was also > suprised to find 76 Stanley Carpenters in the USA, plus 2 Stanley R. > which is my name. > I'm in Family Tree and have been doing genology for quite some > time. Keep up the good work, It's quite interesting to follow along. > Stan

Dear Carpenter Researchers, Tony Carpenter in the UK gave permission to have the following article posted to this forum. Thanks Tony! John R. Carpenter La Mesa, CA USA A scenario of the roots of Carpenter Family history - Part 1 A scenario of the roots of Carpenter Family history using the general history of France and England starting in the medieval period. We the Carpenters are a Military Family and have been involved in warfare from early mediaeval times to the present day. Generations of us have been involved and have the knack, if you can call it that, of surviving. I will include in the pages that follow information on campaigns that have involved our ancestors. Being a military family in medieval times put the family in a position of power. The formation of the "power base" started in the crusades when family members fought as Knights through to the Norman Conquest and beyond. The first recorded reference to the Carpenter's coat of Arms are shown in a 13th Century document of the third Crusade. Those Knights with whom the Carpenters fought became confidants and friends, and in the medieval age such friendship and patronage was essential for survival, progress, position, and riches. The King had the power over life or death of his subjects, upset him and you could be castrated, disembowelled and hung out for view, not a pleasant end, so it would be essential to be on good terms with him. As Norman Knights we had this favoured connection. However, to make sure of our survival, we made sure we had God on our side in the form of Religion, with influential contacts within the Church. The most Powerful man in the family was John the Bishop of Worcester and Westbury. He became Clerk and Chaplain to the King between 1430 and 1441, a very powerful position of state. He held many positions of influence, and became a very wealthy man. I will show his Biography later. The other Carpenter of note during the same period was John the Younger nephew of the Bishop who was the Town Clerk of the City of London. They both had "the King's ear" and it must have help the family position in the early times. London and Bristol were the most important towns of that time. As ports they were situated on important rivers, had estuaries and tributaries of the main rivers that went far inland. They became centres of commerce, trade and transportation. John the Bishop in Bristol and his Nephew John the younger in London kept the family in contact with what was going on. A clever ploy, and essential for family survival. An early example of nepotism. The Carpenter families had manor houses close to the rivers, access to water was their means of travel. It would be easy for the Hereford Carpenters to travel to France or London by sea, or, for that matter, the French side of the family the Meluns to travel to England from the town of Melun by way of the river Seine. I will show this later on a map. Remember, we are looking at the start of our family roots in a very turgid time. I have included an extract from a book on Warfare, which I believe portrays the typical early Carpenter Men. KNIGHTS AND MERCENARIES. The military structure of mediaeval Europe was dominated by the castle and the heavily armoured mounted man-at-arms. These two could be probably be described, in the terms we use today, as the two principal elements in one integral weapons system. It was essentially defensive. The Feudal military service was highly regulated. The obligation to serve was to a person, under a contract clearly understood on both sides. A benefit was conferred (tenancy of land was by far the most common form of it) in return for which military service was required. The time to be served and the distance from home a man might have to travel on service were both small. In consequence extensive aggression was difficult to sustain. In the hundred years War England was only able to conquer a large part of France because the English king had feudal claims there. Crusading expeditions to the Near East demanded the invocation of quite exceptional sanctions. The castle represented a heavy investment in labour and capital, but so, in other ways, did the knight. The arms and equipment (including the horse) of an armoured mounted soldier in twelfth-century France or England might represent the entire income for several years of a little rural community. The military resources of a mediaeval monarch were determined by his Position as a land-holder. The forces he could summon, even for the limited time in any year permitted by feudal custom were often exceeded by those available to men who were his subjects, as for example the forces of the early Capet kings, in France were outnumbered by those of the Dukes of Normandy. The permanent forces upon which a king could count were rarely more than modest. The feudal mounted man-at-arms followed his calling primarily for the maintenance or improvement of the economic and social position of his family as, a land-holding unit. Military service was one of the only two ways which were in practice open to him (the other being holy orders) for the acquisition of further wealth and prestige. For anyone not in holy orders, rank, dignity, administrative responsibility and the rewards thereof were all closely related to the extent of land held in fief. More extensive benefices could be expected to accrue to the distinguished performer in battle. Plunder and ransom could also be expected to come the way of the mediaeval man-at-arms The advantages, finally, of physical strength and skill at arms in the time public security which followed the collapse of the Roman institutions need no emphasis. The son of a knightly family held land in return for military service, he was naturally brought up in the use of weapons and in hunting and robust physical sports more or less closely related to the practice of war. It would be less usual for him to learn to read and write. His principal weapons were the horse the lance and a heavy sword (sometimes two handed) with a choice of a variety of other minor cutting and stabbing weapons, and of bruising and crushing weapons such as club or mace. Extract from "The Profession of Arms", by General Sir John Hackett Published 1983 by Sidgewick and Jackson Ltd. in Gt. Britain. As you can see, the survival of a family comes down to Power and Power can take many forms, Fear, Financial insecurity, Ignorance. Fear, as portrayed in medieval times, and more recently under communist regimes, fear of the state or ecclesiastical police. Ignorance, as the old Chinese educational system which decreed that only the ruling classes could be educated. Financial fears as the capitalist state of today the Margaret Thatcher principle, controlling the people by debts, through the banking system, creating a rich and poor society, the "have and have not syndrome". But as we know history shows that none of these work for ever. They are short term controls. So how has the Carpenter family survived the last 1000 years? Let us see if we can find the answer in our family tree, do not expect it to be explained in the form of a tree consisting of only dates, we need to know what happen to the people involved, why genetically we are who we are. I noticed when I was living in Florida USA that every time we put the lights on in the apartment where we were living, and as soon as it got dark the tree frogs who lived in the grounds started to climb up our windows. They knew that the insects that they feed on were attracted to the light, an instant supper table for them. But how did they know? How long did it take them to work out that food source? So have the Carpenters found out a way to carry on, regardless of their situation, are we as quick to adapt to our circumstances as the tree frogs? I think so. The first thing we must understand is that deep down we have the instinct to survive and that instinct came directly from our earliest ancestors. It starts from the strong bond of the Family unit,-------------- John R., As I stated before, all our information has been researched over the last 15 years by my late brother in his retirement [he, by the way, was a research engineer attached to Aldermaston the atomic research station of the UK] and my self. We have a, what we call, hand book of over 100 pages with information on the UK Carpenters, complete with authenticated reference sources. The Carpenter connection of the two Johns can be found in Thomas Brewers life of "John Carpenter Town Clerk of London " [1856] and I suggest that further reading, Calender of the Pat Rolls. H. VI 1429-1436 p466. Prov. & Fellows of Oriel College [1922] p24, by G. C. Richards & Shadwell . Hartlebury Castle by Earnest Henry Pearce. Bishop of Worcester, 1926, published by McMillan. And futher suggest that the reading of the history of Bristol would be of interest to some of our researchers. I don't want to upset the eminent historians in the Carpenter Family, or those who are diligently researching our family roots, but I would like to point out that Genealogy and History are not what one would term an exact science, so much is open to interpretation. An engineer has to rely on physics and other exact sciences to formulate his theories! I therefore maintain that an engineer is quite capable of arriving at conclusions from data which is available through public record. I must point out that some you don't really know the British mentality, the thought that we might wish to claim kinship with nobility is not within our remit, far from it. I think the living in the USA has given you the wrong impression of your Cousins in the UK. The Earl of Tryconnels line died out at his death in 1833. There is a further point which Gill, my wife, wishes to make. Gill is an abbreviation of Gillian, she is a Carpenter by marriage [40 years of it] and her roots are Cornish through and through, with not a coronet to be seen, all her ancestors were miners, fishermen and smugglers, and she's PROUD of it! Maybe we now can get on with the project of telling the story of the Carpenters which I intend to do. Tony to be continued ...

Dear Robin, On years ending witha zero "0" the Federal Goverment conducts an annual census. On years ending with a five "5" states conduct their own census. Their are also special censuses from thime to time. Not all states have kept their records in good shape. Availability varies greatly. Go to your local Genealogy Center or Family History Center to check on the availibility of the different censuses. Some large libraries has a good genealogy section also. Some but not all of the various censuses are coming out on the web. You might want to do a key word search on "Census" and see what you find. Sincerely, John R. Carpenter La Mesa, CA USA Robin Carpenter wrote: > > JohnR: > Hey, what's this about a 1915 PA census??? Never heard of it! Can you > tell more? What info does it cover (same or diff from U.S. Census)? Is it > available on-line? If not, where/how available? Is there an index? > Robin

What is bigoted about my statement? It states in simple terms basic Mormon tennants and beliefs. These beliefs are the basis of their concern with genealogy, and also the reason behind the mistakes they make when they practise it. Your letter to me was emotional. There is a real issue at stake here with my Carpenter family. By the way, my dictionary definition for 'bigoted' is, "intolerantly convinced of a particular creed." Sincerely, Bruce Carpenter -----Original Message----- From: DonnyPerry@aol.com <DonnyPerry@aol.com> To: carp@whidbey.com <carp@whidbey.com> Date: Friday, August 13, 1999 2:28 PM Subject: Re: Mormon Ideology >In a message dated 08/13/1999 12:13:42 PM Central Daylight Time, >carp@whidbey.com writes: > ><< intends to include it in his Year 2000 CD. This > individual is a Mormon genealogist who believes in baptism of the dead, an > ideology that hopes for the salvation of dead ancestors through proxy > baptism. Even a completely wrong list of ancestors is something to be > encouraged in the hope that, if a genealogy is correct >> > >What are you a professor of? Bigotry? > >Donny Perry (incidentally not a Mormon)