I find the comparisons of physical characteristics simply a fun way to get to know each other's families. It is certainly not meant to show someone's family or type is "superior" as suggested by kgj ("Mein Kampf" comment). But here is something more important that may interest people. My dad (Clarence) had prostrate cancer which wore him down, and he eventually died of complications of a stroke (the cancer would have killed him anyway. It was advanced) Dad's brother Frank Herman also had prostrate cancer, and died of complications from brain cancer. Frank's son, Mark (my cousin) has suffered from prostrate cancer, but is doing well. Clarence and Frank's father, Frank Isaac suffered from prostrate cancer. Frank Isaac's father, Cass, died of certain complications and I wonder if they may have been prostrate related as well. A cancer researcher talked with me about this family history and she said our family was very unusual in having this ongoing "legacy" of prostrate cancer through the generations. Because of this we were included in her research. I am wondering if anyone else has encountered a strange situation as this. And I am hoping this information will bring people's attention this disease. If someone in your family history has or had prostrate cancer, it may be a good idea to have younger generations tested as well. Thanks, Mary :) === Mary C. Carpenter Quaternary Studies Program "Where Death is Just the Beginning!" NAU Box 5644 Northern Arizona University Flagstaff, AZ 86011 Ph. (520) 523-1718 __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com

Zimmerman in the German language IS Carpenter. Audrey

I suggest you do not respond then - keep your bad words to yourself. Audrey Kjgcarp@aol.com wrote: > Talk about accepting crap as gospel. Bruces's last comments on gender & > genetics really tops the crap list. I apologize to all of you on the list > for allowing myself to get offended by his brain over brawn comments and will > comment no longer. Bigotry is not worth responding to.

----like Rehoboth and I > don't know what it means. > >> > >Rehoboth is a town in Bristol County Massachuttes near the Pawtuxet river It is where Wm of the Carpenter Memorial stared his family in 1638. Just across the river is Providence ,RI where William of Providence started his family in 1636 John L. Carpenter Searching for Carpenter family decendants of William Carpenter of Providence, RI check my home pages at the following URL's http://www.familytreemaker.com/users/c/a/r/John-L-Carpenter/index.html http://expage.com/page/carpenterlinks http://homepages.msn.com/PicnicPl/jcarp45

A several suggestions: You could look at the Roots Web Home page http://www.rootsweb.com/roots-l/roots-l.html You could get a copy of Amos B. Carpenter's 1898 publication "Carpenter Memoria" this can be found at some historical libraries or on Broderbund's FamilyTreeMaker Archive CD #117 which has a detailed explanation of the US Ancestry of Carpenters with the sometimes mysterious numbers after the first name as well as the English Ancestry. The english ancestry portion explains generally some background on the issue of John Carpenter, Town Clerk of London and the recent postings about that. You could find a description of the arrival of William of Rehoboth, his father, and William of Pawtucket, the cousin/nephew to the US on one of this lists subscriber's web page. I am sorry I don't have that page, but someone who reads here will supply it I am sure. SEvans50@aol.com wrote: > Thank you, Martha! I, too, feel somewhat lost when the word "Rehoboth" is > used. My Carpenters involve a series of Josephs from Pawtuxet, RI, who > migrated to Musketa Cove, LI, NY. The last Joseph was b. 6-28-1720 in > Musketa Cove, and d. before 2-26-1787 in Musketa Cove, and married Elizabeth > Townsend. Their son Henry, b. 8-6-1741 in Musketa Cove, d. 1-22-1784, West > Farms, NY, married Phebe Dickerson/Dickenson. Henry's daughter Sophia, b. > 3-18-1769, married 3-25-1789 Daniel Sutton...there my Carpenters end, and > become Suttons. > Stefani Evans > > In a message dated 09/03/1999 7:45:07 AM Pacific Daylight Time, > mothra@erinet.com writes: > > << I keep hearing terms like Rehoboth and I > don't know what it means. > >> -- ************************************************** | Jerry Carpenter, Managing Principal | | CCS - Continental Consulting Strategies | | Phone/Fax 253-891-3090 | | mailto:jcarp@ccstrat.com | | http://www.ccstrat.com | **************************************************

In a message dated 9/3/99 12:48:05 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Nkobblk@aol.com writes: << Thank heaven for the digest mode. I can use the delete key to erase messages from "Bruce the braggart" >> Normally I would agree..HOWEVER...you never know what might be "enclosed" in ANY message! Thanks to Bruce's post and the web site for Frank B. Carpenter's painting of Lincoln , I think I've found the biggest clue so far to who my Ira Carpenter is and his connection to Lincoln!! I have been researching for 20 years and my father-in-law for 50 to find one little clue! So listers..remember..even in the most hateful e-mails you delete without reading might be that one piece to the puzzle you've been looking for! (That doesn't mean you have to agree with the rest of message!!) Laurie

Is there a FAQ for this list? I keep hearing terms like Rehoboth and I don't know what it means. My line is (to the best of my knowledge) Hans Zimmerman, Christian Zimmerman/Carpenter, Barbara Zimmerman/Carpenter who married Peter Seitz/Sides. At 07:14 AM 9/3/99 -0700, Bruce E. Carpenter wrote: >I have a suggstion similar to Jerry's psychological >profile idea. All of us Rehoboth/Providence Carpenters Martha Hardcastle Guthrie "The cheese stands alone" You can see my pathetic wobbly first web page at: http://hometown.aol.com/lofiwoman/myhomepage/index.html Coming soon! Martha's "I Used to be a Babe" page!

I just received this from my South Central KY Rootsweb list: Allen Co Clerks: David WALKER, Jr 1815-1839 Samuel SWEARGEN 1839-1854 J N FITZPATRICK 1854-1860 Samuel CARPENTER 1860-1866 J H COLLINS 1866-1877 George W HARRIS 1878-1880 This is a very informative list if you have family in that area of the country. Martha Hardcastle Guthrie "The cheese stands alone" You can see my pathetic wobbly first web page at: http://hometown.aol.com/lofiwoman/myhomepage/index.html Coming soon! Martha's "I Used to be a Babe" page!

I have a suggstion similar to Jerry's psychological profile idea. All of us Rehoboth/Providence Carpenters have more or less inherited recollections of our Carpenter histories from well back into the 1800s. Each of us could write these up and publish them on this site. I have for a long time thought of doing my own anyway and planned to entitle it "Tale of Two Families", the story of two Rehoboth Carpenter groups that moved from Rehoboth, to Brattleboro Vermont and then to Worcester Massachusetts in the early 1800s. I can promise you will be entertained. If enough people did this a very priceless family portrait would emerge.This would be so much better than the usual "What happened to Aunt Blanche in Texas in 1880?", that usually fills this forum. My previous mention of genetics, and the suggestion that were are the product of our genes, raised the hackles of a Carpenter bird or two. The feeling that we are entirely the product of our social enviroment and free will is almost a religious belief today. Anyone who thinks genes decide who we are, even in part,is labeled a facist (i.e. a Hitler). The assertion that any of the three alone accounts for us alone is an extreme view i.e. a prejudice. Obviously all three have their part. Try not to abandon reason. Professor Carpenter

Zimmerman to Carpenter is a literal translation. If you look in a English-German dictionary, the noun Carpenter translates to Zimmerman. Martha Hardcastle Guthrie "The cheese stands alone" You can see my pathetic wobbly first web page at: http://hometown.aol.com/lofiwoman/myhomepage/index.html Coming soon! Martha's "I Used to be a Babe" page!

Thank heaven for the digest mode. I can use the delete key to erase messages from "Bruce the braggart"

At 06:05 AM 9/3/1999 -0400, Kjgcarp@aol.com wrote: >I understand that some Carpenters took on this surname because they didn't >have a surname and were required to adopt one and since that was their >profession they took this name as their surname. But are you saying that >there are other Carpenters who were always Carpenters and never had a point >in their history when they had to adopt a surname? It was said that ZIMMERMAN took on the Carpenter surname. > It is my understanding >that there was a time in history when no one had surnames but I could be >wrong. > This is correct. > If I am not wrong and there was a time when even those Carpenters had > And is it possible that those of us who are board banging, timber >tossing Carpenters could be related to Joseph the carpenter, married to Mary, >mother of Jesus? Well, Christians would have you believe that were all related to Adam and Eve... and there are genealogies out there to prove it. :) >When someone starts making comparisons and talking about chisel-type features >and brain over brawn, etc. etc., it just sounds slightly, a little, kinda, >sorta right out of Mein Kampf. But again I could be wrong and those >comparisons could be totally innocent and well intentioned. It is my opinion that they are but comparing Bruce to Hitler is quite interesting :) Chuck Please visit my web site "Chuck's Wood-Knots" at: http://www.evcom.net/~chuck2/index.html Carpenter Genealogy at: http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Prairie/6712/index.html

At 06:29 AM 9/3/1999 -0400, Kjgcarp@aol.com wrote: >Talk about accepting crap as gospel. Bruces's last comments on gender & >genetics really tops the crap list. I apologize to all of you on the list >for allowing myself to get offended by his brain over brawn comments and will >comment no longer. Bigotry is not worth responding to. There's been several private messages to me asking which theory I think is most accurate, John and Tony's or Bruce's. My answer is this: I do not have the credentials to make a decision, I have not personally researched the early lines nor do I have the money or access to the history books and ancient records to do so. I have moved from RI to FL, my local library is the size of a mobile home. It is very difficult to get inter-library loans here because the librarian told me other libraries are reluctant to send books here as small FL towns are thought of as transient towns and they fear the books will not be returned. This could be true...... So..... how can I, without the personal research to back me up, offer an answer, I can't. And neither can anyone else who hasn't done the personal research. So, what I'm saying is don't sling "crap" unless you have a good shield to back you up. Chuck Please visit my web site "Chuck's Wood-Knots" at: http://www.evcom.net/~chuck2/index.html Carpenter Genealogy at: http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Prairie/6712/index.html

Talk about accepting crap as gospel. Bruces's last comments on gender & genetics really tops the crap list. I apologize to all of you on the list for allowing myself to get offended by his brain over brawn comments and will comment no longer. Bigotry is not worth responding to.

I understand that some Carpenters took on this surname because they didn't have a surname and were required to adopt one and since that was their profession they took this name as their surname. But are you saying that there are other Carpenters who were always Carpenters and never had a point in their history when they had to adopt a surname? It is my understanding that there was a time in history when no one had surnames but I could be wrong. If I am not wrong and there was a time when even those Carpenters had to adopt a surname how did they happen to choose the name Carpenter as their surname? And is it possible that those of us who are board banging, timber tossing Carpenters could be related to Joseph the carpenter, married to Mary, mother of Jesus? When someone starts making comparisons and talking about chisel-type features and brain over brawn, etc. etc., it just sounds slightly, a little, kinda, sorta right out of Mein Kampf. But again I could be wrong and those comparisons could be totally innocent and well intentioned.

I guess it is time to add my $.02. After reading about noses, inseams, builds, lineage and occupations. Here is what I have (and this is not wild speculation since I have the pictures and the source docs for my 2nd great grandfather). I have put up (to keep this mail small), the earliest picture I have of John Henry Carpenter, the son of John (8100) Carpenter. He was 68" tall with a 29 1/2" inseam. His father John was a sailor and farmer and so was he. We are descended from William of Rehoboth in this way. William, Abiah, Oliver, Thomas, Nicholas, John, Nicholas, John, John Henry, Karl Harrison, Henry John, me. I apologize for not adding more detail to the line, but hope there is not an identical path from William that will set up a chain of the "dreaded, endlessly threaded" topic of who I am descended from. :) I also put up a photo of my grandfather, who was about 68" and had a 29 1/2" inseam. My uncle is about 69" and has a 30" inseam. I am 68" and have a 29 1/2" inseam. I haven't asked my uncle for his permission, but there is one of him in 1949 or so. So check out the three generations with the same build and nose! at http://ccstrat.com/carps/carps.html You see the distinctive nose on each of the three My father, and I don't have the same nose, as we inherited it from the Cole side of my grandparents. All of the Carpenter girls in this family also have what we called "the Carpenter Nose". I think this has been referred to in earlier postings. My 2nd great grandfather John (from line above) had 6 brothers and one sister, thus to verify the preponderance of male children in some families If there are any pictures of his brothers or their descendants, it would certainly be interesting. According to A. B. Carpenter, "Carpenter Memorial" the sons of Nicholas (8093) were: Josiah (8098) Lydia (8099)<Married William Orr, descendants live in Las Vegas) John (8100) (my line, Ran away to sea abt 1839, then to Maine) Orin (8101) William (8102)<--------- Andrews Indiana Oliver (81030 Freeman (8104)<--------- Marlette, Michigan Dimon (8105)<--------- Ft. Wayne, Indiana Now, if there are any male descendants of William , Freeman or Dimon Luther, reading this group, and you have any pictures of your Carpenter line, please contact me as I am writing the story of this Carpenter line for printing. So much has been said about the physical characteristics of the Carpenters, what about the psychological side. Were the Carpenters egalitarian or autocratic in the running of their families? Were they patient or impatient by nature? Were they explorers by nature or stay at home types? I have some indication that the generation of Nicholas (8093) was autocratic, severe and alienated most of his sons. Some documents lead me to believe that his was a most dysfunctional family. He didn't pass this down to his son John (8100) however. I can attest to that. Enough thoughts and pictures for one evening! Jerry Carpenter "C.A.Carpenter ( Chuck's Wood-Knots)" wrote: > At 09:04 PM 9/1/1999 -0700, Bruce E. Carpenter wrote: > >Dearest Carpenters: > >As I mentioned previously, the vast, vast majority > >of present English Carpenters are dscendants of timber tossing carpenters of > >trade. > >They surely must be well built. However the Rehoboth > >and Providence Carpenters are descendants of landowners > >and merchants. These were people who used their brains and > >not their brawn. My Carpenters are all tall, thin boned with > >fine chisled facial features. They (including myself) were never in > >love with physical work, even on the farm. In the Carpenter Memorial, > >on p. 376, is a picture of Philo Carpenter. He seems to me to be > >the classic Carpenter. Take a look at the two on p. 163. > >A classic Carpenter is Frank Carpenter, whose fine photo can > >be found at www.geocities.com/fbc.htm. A much more interesting > >question would have been, "Were the Carpenter ladies well built"? > > > >For the record, the reason I don't accept a DeMelun > >origin for the Herefordshire Carpenters is not > >that I dislike the DeMeluns, but rather the evidence that > >supports the connection is a sham. It is the nature > >of my profession to assign an "F" for lousy homework and > >an "A" for well done homework. Simple as that. > > > >Sincerely, > >Bruce Carpenter > > > > The URL posted above does not work for me but the one below does. > > http://www.geocities.com/~newgeneration/fbc.htm > > From a personal observation. > > I am descended from the Rehoboth clan. I grew up in Barrington, RI which > was once part of Rehoboth. > > I am more closely related to Bruce Carpenter than any other Carpenter on > the list. We follow the same path from William down to Stephen Carpenter > and Martha Hunt. > > The observation is: > I am small boned and 5'8" tall but have the 29.5 inseam as Tony mentions.. > maybe it's 30". > ALL the Carpenters I have ever met were small boned with the exception of > my son who is large boned, 6' and 265 lbs. The biggest Carpenter I know :) > Frank Carpenter( The Painter ) bears a strong resemblance to my family and > a lot of other Carpenters I have known. > All of them were very intelligent and worked hard, but not "heavy" laborers. > They were all "artistic" in some way and yes a little eccentric :) > > And they all loved women, "well built" or not :) > > Chuck > > Please visit my web site "Chuck's Wood-Knots" at: > http://www.evcom.net/~chuck2/index.html > > Carpenter Genealogy at: > http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Prairie/6712/index.html -- ************************************************** | Jerry Carpenter, Managing Principal | | CCS - Continental Consulting Strategies | | Phone/Fax 253-891-3090 | | mailto:jcarp@ccstrat.com | | http://www.ccstrat.com | **************************************************

John Laird was wondering about my NY Carpenters. I decided to answer him and include a slightly abbreviated line further back to see if my elusive AMASA CARPENTER can be found by anyone, or if it looks like I have the lineage down fairly correctly. My info from Alonzo on back is from a cousin John DeMott, who has been working on our line for quite a long time (thanks John!). I am starting the list with myself and going back in time. Thanks! Mary Cathryn Carpenter (me!) b. 2-5-1960 at St. Joseph's Hospital,Marshfield, Wood Co., WI. (Hometown: Abbotsford, Clark Co., WI) Presently single and living in Flagstaff, Coconino Co., AZ Clarence ("Carpy") Frank CARPENTER b. 8-20-1922 in Longwood, Clark Co., WI d. 5-20-1995 at St. Joseph's Hospital, Marshfield, Wood Co., WI. Buried in Abbotsford, Clark Co., WI. m. Doris Marie GENRICH on 8-18-1954 at St. Louis Catholic Church, Dorchester, Clark Co., WI. Doris was b. 6-4-1922 in Little Black Twp., Taylor Co., WI. Presently living in Abbotsford, Clark Co., WI. Frank Isaac CARPENTER b. 2-20-1882 in Chesaning, MI d. 3-29-1945 in Sparta, WI (buried in Sparta, WI) m. Catherine POMMERICH on 2-3-1909 in Fond du Lac, WI Catherine was b. 8-28-1886; d. 8-25-1965 at St. Joseph's Hospital, Marshfield, Wood Co., WI. Buried in Colby, WI. *(Frank left Catherine, and married a woman named Winifred who had a son and ran a boarding house in Sparta, WI. He may have been married before Catherine as well). Cass CARPENTER b. 11-26-1851 in MI d. 3-25-1925 in an Infirmary, Calhoun Co., MI m. Czarena (Czarina) A. BUCKLAND on 6-30-1877 in Chesaning, MI. Czarena was b. 1852 in NY; d. 5-30-1887 in St. Charles Twp., Saginaw Co., MI. Daughter of John Calvin BUCKLAND and Chloe Amanda (or Amanda Chloe) GILL. Alonzo (or Elanson) CARPENTER b. 1812 in Corinth Twp., Saratoga Co., NY d. Unknown m. Julia FORBES in 1850. Julia was b. 6-13-1826 in NY; d. 8-1-1899 in St. Charles, MI. Daughter of William FORBES and Sarah EVARTS (EVRATS). Alonzo's parents are eluding me. Our "best fit" is Amasa CARPENTER, but I have no paperwork linking them. My source says Amasa married twice, had 10 children, and settled in Sandy Creek, NY. He is listed in the 1850 census for Oswego Co., NY. Amasa CARPENTER: b. 3-27-1783 in Thompson, Windham, CT d. aft. 1850 in Sanday Creek, Oswego, NY m. Lucy STONE, unknown Lucy was b. abt. 1783 in CT; d. Unknown Samuel CARPENTER b. 5-24-1757 in Pomfert, Windham, CT d. 1-7-1789 in Thompson, Windham, CT *m. (1)Dolly ALTON* on 4-27-1780 in CT Dolly was b. abt. 1760 in Windham, CT; d. 3-9-1785 in Thompson, Windham, CT. *(Apparently Samuel and Dolly had a son Amasa that died as a baby. "My" Amasa is the second born child. Dolly died after the birth of their third son, Samuel (b. 3-6-1785). m. (2)Sybil ALTON (when?), they had three children - Dolly, Eliot, and Asa. Going back from Samuel (father of Amasa), in quick review: -Samuel (b. 3-10-1716/17) who married Keziah CARPENTER. Keziah was daughter of Ebenezer CARPENTER and Mehitable BISHOP (I won't list that CARP. line at this time). -Samuel (b. 11-9-1684) who married Hannah JOHNSON. -Samuel Jr. (b. 8-15-1661 in Rehoboth) who married Patience IDE. -**Samuel Sr. (b. abt. 1635** in Rehoboth) who married Sarah READAWAY (REDAWAY, REDWAY, REDEWAY). -William (of Rehoboth?) (b. 5-23-1605 Wiltshire, England) ** If Sam Sr.'s father was Wm. of Rehoboth, and Wm. didn't arrive in America until the Bevis came in 1638, then how could Sam Sr. be born in Rehoboth 3 years before??? If my info is correct (and I am reading it correctly), Sam Sr. had a brother William (b. 1632 in Southampton, England) who was direct ancestor of earlier mentioned KEZIAH CARPENTER. Any leads on that elusive Amasa from anybody???? Maybe he isn't even Alonzo's father. Any suggestions are appreciated. Thanks Mary __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com

Bruce, Interesting ideas and research! And I do think I'm seeing some humor coming through! As a Carpenter female I do not take your comments as a "lessening" of our importance in the family history (besides, we women know we are really the important ones... humor here!):) Although my Dad's siblings were all female, except he & his brother, it does appear that the Carpenter males are beginning to outnumber the females in my generation and the next. Hmmmmmm. Thanks for the insights. Even if we all don't always agree with you, as a scientist I recognize how much work goes into research such as you are doing. Thanks to everyone else on this list whose research, comments, and selfless gifts of time has increased my knowledge of my family and our history! Mary === Mary C. Carpenter Quaternary Studies Program "Where Death is Just the Beginning!" NAU Box 5644 Northern Arizona University Flagstaff, AZ 86011 Ph. (520) 523-1718 __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com

How fun! Comparing notes! I have just received a book of pictures that I saw on my trip to Vermont. They are photos of oil portraits of Reynolds Carpenter and wife Hannah Niles and son Joseph Ira Carpenter. Now all my life I thought I had a Hillary nose (maiden name). I found a snap shot of my grandfather Howard R. Carp. and compared it with Reynolds' portrait. Lo and Behold the noses are the same, the mouth and jaw are the same and the eyes are almost the same, alittle smaller. My grandfather was probably 5'8" or 9". To a little girl he didn't look as tall as my Dad who was 5'10! Joseph doesn't look nearly as close to my grandfather as Reynolds, my grt grt grandfather. Grandpa Joe is his son. The genes must be strong to descend that far!! Linda in Albuq. Searching for: Acton, Bailey, Bartle, Carpenter, Hannah, Hertzog, Hillary, Holland, Mackay, Matheson, Page, Reynolds, Ridenour/Reitenaurer, Shadwick, Stoner, Wollet.

The "well built" discussion reminds me of what may be the real important genetic factor for the Rehoboth/Providence Carpenters-that being most families having a greater number of male offspring. Now don't think I'm trying to lessen the importance of female Carpenters! The old discussion of the Norman origins of the Carpenters comes into play here. Long has it been recognized that the Normans had a genetic quirk which produced unusual numbers of men. Families would fill up with too many males to share property and wealth, with the result that the excess males had to seek their fortunes abroad. The most celebrated example of this was the DeHautville brothers who rode off to Sicily and took the place over. They were Norman nobodys, who in a decade of time, created their own kingdom in Italy. I have heard it said that the reason for the creation of Normandy itself was an excess of males from the land of origin. Likewise such a case can be made for conquest of England by King William. Another element in the drama was the Norman's love for religious institutions, which were good places to place excess sons. The third element was their genius at business, and this is where the Carpenter orgins are too be found; sons that traveled the know trade routes and created a network of capital connections for imports and exports. Take a look at Amos Carpenter's book and see if you come to the same conclusion.Keep in mind there is always a greater number of female offspring in general society, yet the Carpenters are male makers. Of course the first American Carpenters were Alice and her sisters. But why did the Williams make the trip? Was it entirely religion, or was it another case of lesser sons of lesser sons hungry for better pasture? Carpenters, a genetic super family? Finally, a word about the genes of the DeMelun family. Open your phone book and try to find one. Good luck. Genetically they were a flop, a bunch of Frankish lesser-aristocrats who produced one infamous Jew killer, and are now extinct or nearly so. Sincerely, Professor Carpenter