The following I offer as an interesting Carpenter historical artifact, the name of a Carpenter wine merchant and his ship. In a possible related document, which I will append, the father of a Nicholas is revealed as a John Carpenter. York was another favorite center for merchants, although not a seaport (more about the Yorkshire merchant Carpenters at a later date). It is tempting to connect John with the Edward, Robert, Martin, William and John group in an earlier document I published. They were also wine importers. The port of Fowyk is unidentified. From CLOSE ROLLS, May 16, Eltham, 1329: “To the sheriff of Southhampton. Order to release 94 tuns and 5 pipes of white wine belonging to John de Bray, Laurance Crap of Abbeville, Adam le Porter of Crotoie, John Vynet, Thomas Newet, and Bernard Imbaud of Bowet, arrested in a ship called ‘La Trinete’ of London, whereof Rodger Catour is master, and 28 tuns of white wine belonging to John le Parmenter, Stephen de Malun, and James de Souchoi of Bollouner, in a ship called ‘La Cogge Nostre Dame’ of Fowyk, whereof Nicholas le Carpenter is master, by the sheriff in the port of Southampton, in execution of the king’s order to arrest goods and wares of the men and merchants of the lands of France, Normandy, and Poitou, as the king is going to France upon certain of his affairs, and therefore wishes to deal graciously with the aforesaid men.” And CLOSE ROLLS, June 17, York, 1327. “John le Carpenter of Naburn and Nicholas his son acknowledge that owe to John son of Nicholas de Northfork of Naburn 100s.; to be levied, in default of payment, of their lands and chattels in co. York.” Bruce E. Carpenter

Dear Sharon, I have the ancestry and some descendants of Elisha Carpenter. INDIVIDUAL DATA RIN:7263 - ---------------------------------------------- Name:Elisha CARPENTER Sex:M ID No:LSPQ-45 Birth:28 Aug 1721 Place:Attleborough,Bristol,MA Chr: Place: Marr:15 Mar 1744 Spouse:Anna WHITAKER-7264 Marr: Spouse: Marr: Spouse: Death: 2 Aug 1789 Place:Pomfret,Windham,CT Burial: Place:Sutton,,MA Father:Noah CARPENTER-609 Mother:Sarah JOHNSON-7240 Notes -------------------------------------------------------- !Number 161 in the Carpenter Memorial on page 72 Family on page 109 (#81). A baptist minister. Would you be interested in sharing data? Which child of his do you descend from? I can supply a GEDCOM of his ancestry as I have it recorded. I'm happy to share! John R. Carpenter La Mesa, CA skye523@webtv.net wrote: > > Looking for any info on the parentage and ancestory of Elisha CARPENTER, > b. 28 Aug 1721 Attleborough, MA; m. 15 Mar 1744 , to Anna WHITAKER[b. 30 > Oct 1707 Rehoboth, MA d/o Daniel ,( b. 10 May 1679 )and Mary CHAFFEE > WHITAKER} > Elisha is #161 in Carpenter Memorial and was a Baptist minister. > TIA , Sharon > > Genealogists never die they just lose their census.

Dear George, My grandfather was born on a farm outside Dickey, La Moure county, ND. He was abit of a skirt chases or "a ladies man" as he said it. He also burned his father's bible and papers to keep the "snoops" out. My father grew up on a farm near Fargo, Cass county, ND and his mother was the teacher of a one room school house. During those long very cold Dakota winters there wasn't much to do after chores but sitting around the old stove talking and reading. Stories of following a rope strung from the house to the barn during winter storms when you couldn't see five feet always amazed me. I had a chance to spend one winter there in the 1960s. Sure enough they used a rope when a storm came up. I was very happy for it when I lead the way to the barn one morning. I found out why I was given the "honor" of being first. The large icicles bruised my legs and I found the barn with my head. The thunk annouced our arrival! My father went on to be a welder and the beginning of World War Two and later had a carrer as a soldier. Before retiring as a Major (he was a "mustang" - an enlisted man who became an officer) he had two BS degrees and a Masters. He then served a second career with the County of San Diego. Family stories gathered now are priceless later! John R. Carpenter La Mesa, CA The Carpenters wrote: > > John, > > Much of my original information about my ancestors (all lines) comes from > my father. Born in 1914, as a youngster he had no radio or television or > movies for entertainment, but he had grandfathers who loved to tell him > about "the olden times." He says that after supper, they would gather > around the stove on a South Dakota winter night, and Pop would say, "Grampa > and Gramma, tell us about the olden times." The two "old folks" would > chuckle, and Grandpa would launch into it with gusto. Pop has remembered > an amazing amount of the material from those evenings, and I have proved a > lot, and not disproved a thing so far. You mention sharing the stories > with younger folk, and I think this is really important for us to do *on > purpose* for our kids and grandkids. Not surprisingly, I have inherited my > Pop's love for the stories of the olden times, and have a degree in history > and a stack of family stories to show for it. > > George > --- > George R. Carpenter > Pinckney, Michigan > carpgl@ismi.net > > ---------- > > We all should all beware of our history and make sure the young know it > > also. > > > > John R. Carpenter > > La Mesa, CA

Hello, Can you supply some more data on your Carpenter and Nutter? The Mowrey 1997 book has many Nutters marying into the Carpenter family of VA and WV. There are several Issac's listed without spouses that might fit. Sincerely, John R. Carpenter La Mesa, CA JTh6666505@aol.com wrote: > > Looking for info on Isaac D. Carpenter in Ritchi Co. WV married Mary L.Nutter > on July 12,1902 can anyone help? Debbie jth6666505@aol.com

Linda in Albuq: Are you familiar with a place called Rehoboth in NM?? It is near Gallup if I remember correctly. I go by it (on Interstate 40) whenever I drive from Flagstaff, AZ to my home in WI. When I started my genealogy research and found out about Rehoboth, MA, I thought it was interesting to drive by another place named Rehoboth way out here! Mary === Mary C. Carpenter Quaternary Studies Program "Where Death is Just the Beginning!" NAU Box 5644 Northern Arizona University Flagstaff, AZ 86011 Ph. (520) 523-1718 __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com

Whoops, I've had a couple people ask me what my e-mail signature means: "Quaternary Studies - Where Death Is Just the Beginning". First of all, I don't mean to add it to my Carpenter list serve e-mails, I keep forgetting to "uncheck" it before I send. So if anyone is disturbed or offended, sorry! But be assured it isn't a cult or anything :) Quaternary Studies is a master's program I am in at Northern Arizona University. The Quaternary is a period of time in the earth's history - the last 1.8 million years or so. In our program we study a variety of things such as paleontology (the bones and history of dead, sometimes extinct, animals like mammoths, etc.), paleoecology/paleoenvironments ("Paleo" means "old". Here we study past ecology and changes in it and changes in climate or environments through time), fire studies in forests, pollen, archaeology, etc. Basically we look at the past to interpret what the plants, animals, and environments were like in a certain period of time within the Quaternary. We use our findings, such as extinctions, to interpret changes through time. So for our research, death truly is the beginning of our work and interests. It's just a saying we came up with to stand apart and also to sell T-shirts! :)) I realize not everyone believes in such a distant past or in evolution, so I do not mean to start a discussion between evolution and creationism. I just wanted to explain this to people. I'll try to remembert to leave the signature off in the future. Happy genealogy! Mary __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com

I''m trying to find information on my grandfather, Wilbur Carl Carpenter. Family legend has it that he was from Wisconsin and worked for a circus. He was probably born between 1900 and 1915. He ended up in Springville, New York where he married Cora Blasdell prior to 1932 (my dad was born in 1932). Grandpa also served in the army and drew disability when he came out. He died in 1971, right after Thanksgiving. My grandmother died in 1995. Have not been able to find any information on him anywhere, including Social Security number or service number (army). Any help would be appreciated. --- Carl Carpenter Director - River Chords Women's Barbershop Chorus (not affiliated) Director - Kerrville Country Gentlemen Chorus (SPEBSQSA) Lead - KerrTunes Lead - 4Jazz (MHBQA) Lead (when I can get there) - San Antonio Chordsmen Chorus (SPEBSQSA) mailto: cgcarpenter@zdnetmail.com Free web-based email, anytime, anywhere! ZDNet Mail - http://www.zdnetmail.com

I too, have Southern Carpenter. I have found John Carpenter d. 10/2/1906 who married Louisa Hooks in Stanly Co, NC. Their children were: 1. Hampton W. b. 1853 m. Sarah Frances Harwood. a. Fillmore b. 1878 m. Susan Teal I. Lawrence P. b. 4/10/1912 d. 5/17/1948 II. J. E. Carpenter III. Bill IV. daug that married Jack McCoy V. daug that married Thomas Saunders b. John b. 9/1879 c. Ezra b. 9/1884 d. Mary b. 8/1887 e. Ollie b. 12/1891 f. Beverly W. b. 8/1894 g. Nezzie b. 9/1898 2. Gilliam Philmore b. 1855 m. Sallie Gaddy !st. Martha J. Hunsucker 2nd, Hattie Privette 3rd, Mrs. Annie Bell Banks 4th, Dollie Eddins 5th. (this is my Ggrandfather) a. Philmore b. 1876 b. John Dawson b. 9/24/1878 Anson Co, NC c. Rosa Ann b. 7/20/1882 Anson Co, NC (my grandmother) d. Martha Louisa b. 3/10/1884 e. Margaret Ellen b. 6/1885 f. Arrie Elizabeth b. 3/20/1888 g. Emma Eugenia b. 4/1889 h. Gilliam Philmore Jr. b. 1892 i. Lucy Maybell b. 152/11/1893 j. Alfred Pinkton b. 1879 k. Bessie Mae d. 5/3/1896 l. Bernie b. 1905 m. David b. 1907 n. Robert b. 1908 o. Lester b. 1909 p. Roman b. 1913 q. Lockhart b. 1915 r. Ellison d. 1/1919 3.Robert L. b. 1860 m. Martha J. Henry 4. Nola J. b. 1866 m John P. Atkinson 5. Mary E. b. 1869 m Henry Lear 6. Sallie b. 1874 m. J. W. Vaughn 1st, Henry Burr 2nd. They were in Stanly Co, NC then moved to Anson Co, NC. does anyone know of this family. I have looked for many years and whould like to find them.

Judith Haas wrote: > > Searching for Mills in Halifax County, NC, I found the following > Carpenters. Since several of my Mills married Carpenters, (Hardy > Mills to Frances Carpenter, Wilkes County, NC and Joel Mills to > Jane Carpenter in Hawkins County, TN) I would be very interested > in any info on the Jonathans below. > > Deeds of Halifax County, NC 1771-1786, Book 13, #334-(202) > JONATHAN CARPENDER, JR. planter of Halifax County to JOHN SCOTT > planter of > Northamption. 21 Oct 1774. 30 pounds proclamation money. 100 > acres, joining said JONATHAN CARPENDER, MYRICK, POWELL. Wit. > SAMUEL > CARPENDER, ELIZA MILLS, DAVID WINBORN. Nov court 1774. > Examined by James Hogun, Esq. MARY CARPENDER relinquished her > right of dower. > > Deeds of Halifax County, NC 1771-1786, Book 13, #339-(211) > JONATHAN CARPENDER and FRANCES his wife of Halifax County to JOHN > NORWOOD > of Northampton County. 15 Nov 1774. 66 pounds 13 shillings 4 > pence proclamation money. 100 acres which BENJAMIN MERRIT had > acquired and sold to > THOMAS BRADFORD who sold it to JONATHAN CARPENDER, joining IRBY, > JEWRY(?), IVEY, TAYLOR, Great Chaukeaut Creek, JOHNSON. Nov > court 1774. > Examined by James Hogun, Esq, FRANCES CARPENDER relinquished her > right of > dower. > > Judy > 22mu60@email.msn.com Judy, Do you have any idea whether the Jonathan Carpenter remained in Halifax County or left? I have a Jonathan Carpenter who lived and died in Rutherford County, NC. He removed to Rutherford County by about 1800. His whereabouts is unknown prior to 1800. I have speculated that he could have removed from Montgomery County, NC which has a lot of Carpenters including a Jonathan in the 1790 census. Jonathan Carpenter, b abt 1755; d. 1810-1833; m. Mary -?-, b. before 1755; d. 1830-1843. Their known children: 1. Harbert -- went to Smith Co., Tenn. 2. Mary "Polly" m. Andrew Eaves 3. Kinchen m. Anna Baber and lived in Rutherford Co., NC, Cooke Co., Tenn., Yancey Co., NC, and SC. 4. Amelia "Milly" m. George Chatham Doggett 5. Willie d.s. 6. Fanny m. George McDaniel There may have been others but very little proof. Oral tradition in the family is that Jonathan's father was a man named William Carpenter and that they originated in the Shenandoah Valley of VA. We have found no documentation for this name. Jonathan may be of English descent; we are not sure. My primary research has been with Zimmerman Carpenters but I had to sort out this Jonathan to determine whether he was a Zimmerman or not. I never found a German signature for Jonathan and assume he is not German. Let me know if you other information on this family. Robert Carpenter

Hi! I am seeking info on Heinrich Zimmerman and his descendants. I was recently told that my ancestor James Carpenter was the son of Nehemiah Carpenter, son of David Carpenter, etc. up to Heinrich Zimmerman. But since being told the basics have not been able to contact the people who gave me this tidbit. I am wanting to verify this info and continue with my research. Does anyone know anything about this line of the Carpenter/Zimmerman family. Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks, Toni Schlaefli

----- >> ><< Reply to: Robin Carpenter <ANALYTIX@valley.net> > > > > Help! Some may recall I've been seeking a full-text transcription or > >copy of the 1732 will of John Carpenter of Jamaica NY. > > NY wills before 1787 are stored at Albany; wills after 1787 are retained > >at the county surrogate courts. So this one should be at Albany. But the > >Albany archivist doesn't find it at "Liber C p. 143" as cited in "Ancestry > & > >Descendants of Col. Solomon Carpenter" for this will. So maybe it was > >re-classified when transferred to the capital. Or maybe it wasn't > >transferred from Jamaica as it should have been. I guess I'll re-try > Queens > >County tomorrow...but in the meantime, does anyone have some different or > >additional info or citation of where-the-heck to find this will? > > Robin >> > >John Carpenters 1732 will was recorded in liber C of Queens County Deeds. > >Steve >----------------------- >How To Unsubscribe: http://www.genexchange.com/faq.cfm > >NYGenExchange >http://www.genexchange.com/ny/index.cfm > >Emigrant Savings Bank Records Project >http://www.genexchange.com/ny/Emigrant.CFM >

I've been looking for a connection between my William b.abt 1790 and Gilbert b.abt 1743 in Goshen, NY or perhaps Gilbert b. Nov 10,1772 in Goshen. I haven't had much luck. So I thought I'd try it from another direction. Do any of you have the Deming Carpenter listed below and his line back? Any help would really be appreciated. Carolyn Carpenter Descendants of William Carpenter 1 William Carpenter b: Abt. 1790 in Kingston Township, Luzerne County, Pennslyvania d: Aft. 1850 .. +Elizabeth Anway m: Abt. 1812 d: Aft. 1850 ... 2 Sophronia Carpenter b: in Sunbury (Delaware) Ohio ....... +Phillip Doty b: 1811 in New York, New York ... 2 Hurlburt Carpenter b: April 05, 1816 in Sunbury (Delaware) Ohio d: October 11, 1897 in Iowa ....... +Mary Ann Woodruff m: January 12, 1843 ... 2 Lovina Carpenter b: Abt. 1820 in Galena (Delaware) Ohio ....... +John Beekman m: June 04, 1840 ... 2 Deming Carpenter b: March 26, 1822 in Galena, Delaware, Ohio d: April 09, 1871 in Mansfield, Richland, Ohio ....... +Esther Woodruff b: July 06, 1826 in Zollarsville, Washington, Pennsylvania m: April 15, 1843 in Galena, Delaware, Ohio d: December 25, 1917 in Franklin Grove, Lee, Illinois ......... 3 Osmer D Carpenter b: September 13, 1844 in Galena (Delaware) Ohio d: June 11, 1851 in Franklin Grove, (Lee) Ohio ......... 3 William Joseph Carpenter b: March 13, 1846 in Galena, (Delaware) Ohio d: August 09, 1936 in Portland, (Multnomah) Oregon ............. +Melissa Ruthven Kenaston b: January 16, 1846 in Franklin County, Ohio m: January 17, 1867 in Rock Island (Rock) IL d: June 02, 1927 in Hopewell (Yamhill) Oregon ......... 3 Ira Raymond Carpenter b: January 12, 1849 in Galena (Delaware) Ohio d: December 07, 1941 in Isle, (Mille Lacs) Minnesota ............. +Jossephine Esther (Josie) Keetch m: August 31, 1877 ......... 3 Catherine Carpenter b: January 12, 1849 in Galena (Delaware) Ohio d: September 18, 1924 in Tama, (Tama) Iowa ............. +Charles Hayden Kenaston m: December 24, 1865 ......... 3 Rhoda Elizabeth Carpenter b: April 06, 1851 in Lighthouse Point, (Ogle) Illinois d: 1943 in Rochelle, (Ogle) Illinois ............. +Richard L. Walters m: April 29, 1875 ......... 3 Nehemia W. (Myre) Carpenter b: January 04, 1854 in Lighthouse Point, (Ogle) Illinois d: June 11, 1887 in Iowa ............. +Nellie Sage m: August 23, 1880 ......... 3 Havilah (Vilah) Carpenter b: June 18, 1856 in Hammondsburg, (Warren) Iowa d: December 31, 1938 in San Diego, (San Diego) California ............. +Mary Jane (Jennie) Keetch b: September 14, 1866 in New Jersey m: November 10, 1886 in Vinton, (Benton) Iowa d: August 14, 1952 in San Diego, (San Diego) California ......... 3 Frank (Vilah) Carpenter b: December 27, 1859 in Franklin Grove, Lee, Illinois d: September 04, 1936 in Iowa Falls, Hardin, Iowa ............. +Clara A Foster b: December 15, 1859 in Springfield, Sagamon, Illinois d: March 11, 1957 in Iowa Falls, Hardin, Iowa ... *2nd Wife of Deming Carpenter: ....... +Lavina Jane Huston b: Abt. 1842 m: January 26, 1871 in Mansfield, Richland, Ohio ... 2 Rhoda Carpenter b: in Galena (Delaware) Ohio

The following citation from October 26th Patent Rolls for 1402 gives an interesting glimpse of Carpenter weavers. This quotation needs a bit of commentary, which I was happy to find in an important study of English trade, by Eleanora Carus-Wilson, entitled MEDIEVAL MERCHANT VENTURERS. The author explains that the most important area for overseas trade in medieval England was (excluding London) Bristol. The city itself was the location for the brokerage of goods. All the cities on the many river systems that emptied into the Bristol Channel were the source of material for trade. The city in our subsequent quotation is Shrewsbury, and was a major production center for export cloth, according to Carus-Wilson. A surprise to me was that the Wye River Valley (consult a good map with detail) was an important wool-producing region, producing the best wool in England, right in Leominster in Hereford. The Herefordshire (not Hertfordshire) connection to the Carpenters had always perplexed me. They were there in force from the 1200s (more in them at a later date). Another problem for me was the Gloustershire origin of Bishop John Carpenter of Worcester. All the above places are on the water network into the Bristol Channel and all intimately connected to wine import and cloth export- the Carpenter lifeblood. This is all a fruitful area of study for a later date. The following is meant as just an introduction to this greater theme: “Protection for one year, for Lewis Couper, Reginald Oswaldestre, ‘cordwaner’, Edmund Oswaldestre his brother, John Furbour, Griffitz Corvyser, Matthew Fissher, Geoffrey de Mardenhole, Lewis Taillour, David Knokyn and Edward Cordwaner, burgesses of Shrewsbury, and Matthew Carpenter, David Carpenter, John Taillour, Edward Carpenter and Geoffrey Carpenter of the same town, weavers, and their men and possessions; on the complaint that although they were always true lieges of the king and his progenitors in times past and wished to be during his life, and from their youth have dwelt within the town and found security for their good behavior, nevertheless they have been imprisoned and annoyed by the bailiffs of the town and others.” The historical background of these incidents was the Welsh rebellion of the early 1400s at the time of Henry IV. The French were feared to join the Scots in an invasion of England; so not a good time for ‘denizen’ Carpenters with strong foreign connections. The interesting theme here is they are foreign and rich enough to suffer oppression by local authorities, but powerful and rich enough to receive protection by the crown. This theme is repeated many times for foreign merchants in England. As you read the above document, please do not imagine a family of Carpenters at their looms, waiting for a quiet moment to consult their tarot cards. Notice the phrase “and their men”. Better to picture several Carpenter families running large scale weaving operations, with copious indentured workers young and old, turning out cloth for Bristol, and eventually export to overseas ports and markets. Of course there would be Carpenters on the other end waiting to retail. What a bunch! Sincerely, Professor Carpenter

----- Original Message ----- From: <CAJ1111@aol.com> To: <CARPENTER-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Sunday, September 05, 1999 9:00 PM Subject: Unwanted Mail - Thanks to all of you!!! > What incredibly nice people you are! I received more than sixty emails > (including > Carpenter-L) in answer to my question about Unwanted mail! I want to thank > each one of you for the helpful tips, suggestions, and taking your time to > help a Carpenter with a problem. The statistics seem to indicate the receipt > of XXX mail has nothing to do with the Carpenter forum. We recently loaded a > new "browser", which may be the problem. > > It is fun to see postings re: the Texas Carpenter line. I have been > searching for any clues regarding my Carpenter ancestry for many years. My > gg grandfather John W. Carpenter died young in Ellis County, Texas before > 1890. He married Carrie Mae Graham on 10 Jan 1884. Carrie Mae was born 9 > Sep 1867 and died 20 Jul 1949 in Collin County, Texas. She is buried in > Plano Mutual Cemetery as Carrie Mae Hutton. She married John H. Hutton in > 1890. John W. (Weston?) and Carrie has Jessie Carpenter who married Icie, > Sammie Lee Carpenter b. 1885 in Lewisville, Denton County, Texas (my > grandfather) who married Allie Mae Cooke, and Johnnie W. Carpenter b. 1889; > died 1954, and is buried next to Carrie Mae in Plano. If ANYONE has any > information about the Carpenter lines in Ellis or Denton Counties, Texas, > your help would be appreciated. __ > ____ > _____ > ______ > _______ > __ > >

Hello, I am seeking information about George Nelson Carpenter and his ancestors. An extract from the 1900 Census of Limestone County, Texas lists the following: Carpenter, George Nelson-Born Dec 1857 Age 42 Birthplace-LA - Parents birthplace UKN Wife Mary Emma Laird -Born Sept. 1869 Age 30 Birthplace-TX- Parents from Miss. Children: Leroy S. Born Jan 1890 Texas Age 10 Cyrus Born Dec. 1894 Texas Age 5 James M. Born Nov. 1897 Texas Age 2 This is all the information included on the Census Extract. George and Emma had four other children that I know of: Nicie Melvin Carpenter Born July 16, 1887 (Died March 1900) John Melton Carpenter Born April 10, 1892 (Died 1892) Pearl Jane Carpenter Born Sept. 16, 1900 (Died Sept. 1979) Ruby Fay Carpenter Born January 27, 1905 I have quite a bit of information on Emma Laird’s family but none on George Nelson Carpenter. I have conflicting birth dates-one has him born in 1857 and the other in 1856. Someone said that they though he was born in Tennessee and not LA. The child named Leory S. on the Census Extract is probably really “Lee Samuel Carpenter”--That is the name on his death certificate. I would appreciate any information on George Nelson Carpenter and his family. Cyrus William Carpenter was my grandfather. Thanks, Bud Carpenter bcarpen@texas.net

Searching for Mills in Halifax County, NC, I found the following Carpenters. Since several of my Mills married Carpenters, (Hardy Mills to Frances Carpenter, Wilkes County, NC and Joel Mills to Jane Carpenter in Hawkins County, TN) I would be very interested in any info on the Jonathans below. Deeds of Halifax County, NC 1771-1786, Book 13, #334-(202) JONATHAN CARPENDER, JR. planter of Halifax County to JOHN SCOTT planter of Northamption. 21 Oct 1774. 30 pounds proclamation money. 100 acres, joining said JONATHAN CARPENDER, MYRICK, POWELL. Wit. SAMUEL CARPENDER, ELIZA MILLS, DAVID WINBORN. Nov court 1774. Examined by James Hogun, Esq. MARY CARPENDER relinquished her right of dower. Deeds of Halifax County, NC 1771-1786, Book 13, #339-(211) JONATHAN CARPENDER and FRANCES his wife of Halifax County to JOHN NORWOOD of Northampton County. 15 Nov 1774. 66 pounds 13 shillings 4 pence proclamation money. 100 acres which BENJAMIN MERRIT had acquired and sold to THOMAS BRADFORD who sold it to JONATHAN CARPENDER, joining IRBY, JEWRY(?), IVEY, TAYLOR, Great Chaukeaut Creek, JOHNSON. Nov court 1774. Examined by James Hogun, Esq, FRANCES CARPENDER relinquished her right of dower. Judy 22mu60@email.msn.com

In this letter I want to introduce additional material relevant to the possible identity of Richard Carpenter, father of John Carpenter Town Clerk of London. My original intuition was that Richard had to be of sufficient social and economic status to place a son in the influential position of London Town Clerk. An old identification of this Richard, with a Richard Carpenter ‘chaundeler’ , seemed out of place because this individual would have been a tradesman in a profession of minor importance. Some suggested that a ‘chaundeler’ had a wide range of economic activities. This I came to realize this was untrue in the late 1300s. In John Dummelow’s THE WAX CHANDELER’S OF LONDON the author writes, “Chandeler orginally meant one who made or dealt with candles. By 1583 the sense had been extended to cover other retail trades” (p. 22). Actually a close reading of historical documents revealed three Richard Carpenters. There was a Richard Carpenter ‘brewer’ in addition to our candle-maker. The third Richard Carpenter, and the object of my enthusiasm, was Richard Carpenter of ‘Fleetstreet’ in 1412. This individual seemed interesting because he had no minor trade designation attached to his name and lived in an area with other influential people. The Inns of Court where Town Clerk John probably received his legal training was basically on Fleetstreet. Also living at one end of Fleetstreet was the neighborhood of an extremely rich merchant Edward Carpenter, of foreign origins, about 1300. Also I discovered a William Carpenter of ‘Fleetstreet’ in a 1394 document, likewise with no minor trade designation, an indication of possible high social status. Thus there seemed to be a concentration of Carpenters in the area, and a tradition of Carpenters in the area. As I investigated into the outlining areas of London I encountered the name Richard Carpenter again in many Hertfordshire (not Herefordshire) legal proceedings, as a witness in the 1390s. Legal witnesses are always people of the highest social tier in the period, people with money and land. The cases with Richard as witness always deal with Berkhamstede or Berkhampstead as it is now spelled. Other Carpenters appear in other land transactions of exact period as well for Hertfordshire. As I looked back into my previous notes for a “who’s who” of important Carpenters for the years previous to this in the early 1300s I saw my notations for a 1339 Berkhamstead disposition for a “John, son of John Carpenter, deceased.” This John was actually a Sir John Carpenter who had land in several locations. The document describes his lands being “Taken into the king’s hands”, for disposition by the crown. The original document dated at Berkhamstead suggests that Sir John’s main place of residence be there. For a number of years subsequent to 1339 legal papers can be found dealing with Sir John’s holdings and heirs. Please don’t assume that Sir John was a hereditary aristocrat. Doubtless he came from money and bought his knightly status for loans to the crown or the like. My point here is that it is not difficult to imagine a connection between this line of Johns and the discussed Richard. Likewise it is quite possible this Richard was the father of the Town Clerk, and that Fleetstreet Richard and Berkhamstead Richard are one an the same. As was the case with countless other people of the times, they owned many different properties and lived in each at different times or even different times of the year. It is also germane to mention that the merchant Edward Carpenter of London had a son or a brother John. One interesting fact is that there are really no other groups of Carpenters in the greater London area. The connectedness of these groups I offer here as a basis for further study. Lavenham I will also technically include in greater London. As a final note I might add that a brewer or a candle maker would fall into the minor trades, while wine importers and wool related merchants (drapers) fall into the major category. Thus it would be entirely in character for the sons of a wealthy family to enter the draper profession. The vintners and drapers controlled London for two hundred years. One other matter is that a reading of Town Clerk John’s will in 1441 indicates both his elder brother John and younger brother Robert were still alive in 1441. Yet if you search for any London connection for them it does not turn up. They must have lived elsewhere. Please be assured that I will look for anything that will disprove my assertions. My favorite philosopher of science, Karl Popper, always maintained that it was more important to search for something that negated your assertion, rather that something that underlined it. Thus the growth of knowledge is possible. Sincerely, Bruce E. Carpenter

What incredibly nice people you are! I received more than sixty emails (including Carpenter-L) in answer to my question about Unwanted mail! I want to thank each one of you for the helpful tips, suggestions, and taking your time to help a Carpenter with a problem. The statistics seem to indicate the receipt of XXX mail has nothing to do with the Carpenter forum. We recently loaded a new "browser", which may be the problem. It is fun to see postings re: the Texas Carpenter line. I have been searching for any clues regarding my Carpenter ancestry for many years. My gg grandfather John W. Carpenter died young in Ellis County, Texas before 1890. He married Carrie Mae Graham on 10 Jan 1884. Carrie Mae was born 9 Sep 1867 and died 20 Jul 1949 in Collin County, Texas. She is buried in Plano Mutual Cemetery as Carrie Mae Hutton. She married John H. Hutton in 1890. John W. (Weston?) and Carrie has Jessie Carpenter who married Icie, Sammie Lee Carpenter b. 1885 in Lewisville, Denton County, Texas (my grandfather) who married Allie Mae Cooke, and Johnnie W. Carpenter b. 1889; died 1954, and is buried next to Carrie Mae in Plano. If ANYONE has any information about the Carpenter lines in Ellis or Denton Counties, Texas, your help would be appreciated. __ ____ _____ ______ _______ __

Thanks! I may have assumed that my server doesn't need a www as it opened for me. http://www.ccstrat.com/carps/carps.html The Carpenters wrote: > Jerry, > > I tried to get the site, but couldn't. Are you sure it is correct here? > > George R. > > ---------- > > From: Jerry Carpenter <jcarp@ccstrat.com> > > To: CARPENTER-L@rootsweb.com > > Subject: Noses, eyebrows, inseams, etc. any pix? (Indiana and Mich Carps, > pls read > > Date: Friday, September 03, 1999 12:37 AM > > > > I guess it is time to add my $.02. After reading about noses, inseams, > > builds, > > lineage and occupations. Here is what I have (and this is not wild > > speculation > > since I have the pictures and the source docs for my 2nd great > > grandfather). I > > have put up (to keep this mail small), the earliest picture I have of > > John Henry Carpenter, the son of John (8100) Carpenter. He was 68" tall > > with a 29 > > 1/2" inseam. His father John was a sailor and farmer and so was he. We > > are descended > > from William of Rehoboth in this way. William, Abiah, Oliver, Thomas, > > Nicholas, > > John, Nicholas, John, John Henry, Karl Harrison, Henry John, me. I > > apologize for not adding > > more detail to the line, but hope there is not an identical path from > > William > > that will set up a chain of the "dreaded, > > endlessly threaded" topic of who I am descended from. :) > > > > I also put up a photo of my grandfather, who was about 68" and had a 29 > > 1/2" > > inseam. My uncle is about 69" and has a 30" inseam. I am 68" and have > > a 29 1/2" inseam. I haven't asked my uncle for his permission, but > > there is one of him in 1949 or so. So check out the three generations > > with the same build and nose! at > > > > http://ccstrat.com/carps/carps.html > > > > You see the distinctive nose on each of the three My father, and I > > don't have the same nose, as we > > inherited it from the Cole side of my grandparents. All of the Carpenter > > girls in > > this family also have what we called "the Carpenter Nose". > > I think this has been referred to in earlier postings. > > > > My 2nd great grandfather John (from line above) had 6 brothers and one > > sister, thus to verify the preponderance of male children in some > > families > > If there are any pictures of his brothers or their descendants, it would > > certainly be interesting. According to A. B. Carpenter, "Carpenter > > Memorial" the sons of Nicholas (8093) were: > > > > Josiah (8098) > > Lydia (8099)<Married William Orr, descendants live in Las Vegas) > > John (8100) (my line, Ran away to sea abt 1839, then to Maine) > > Orin (8101) > > William (8102)<--------- Andrews Indiana > > Oliver (81030 > > Freeman (8104)<--------- Marlette, Michigan > > Dimon (8105)<--------- Ft. Wayne, Indiana > > > > Now, if there are any male descendants of William , Freeman or Dimon > > Luther, reading this group, and you have any pictures of your Carpenter > > line, please contact me as I am writing the story of this Carpenter line > > for printing. > > > > So much has been said about the physical characteristics of the > > Carpenters, what about the psychological side. Were the Carpenters > > egalitarian or autocratic in the running of their families? Were they > > patient or impatient by nature? Were they explorers by nature or stay at > > home types? I have some indication that the generation of Nicholas > > (8093) was autocratic, severe and alienated most of his sons. Some > > documents lead me to believe that his was a most dysfunctional family. > > He didn't pass this down to his son John (8100) however. I can attest > > to that. > > Enough thoughts and pictures for one evening! > > > > Jerry Carpenter > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "C.A.Carpenter ( Chuck's Wood-Knots)" wrote: > > > > > At 09:04 PM 9/1/1999 -0700, Bruce E. Carpenter wrote: > > > >Dearest Carpenters: > > > >As I mentioned previously, the vast, vast majority > > > >of present English Carpenters are dscendants of timber tossing > carpenters of > > > >trade. > > > >They surely must be well built. However the Rehoboth > > > >and Providence Carpenters are descendants of landowners > > > >and merchants. These were people who used their brains and > > > >not their brawn. My Carpenters are all tall, thin boned with > > > >fine chisled facial features. They (including myself) were never in > > > >love with physical work, even on the farm. In the Carpenter Memorial, > > > >on p. 376, is a picture of Philo Carpenter. He seems to me to be > > > >the classic Carpenter. Take a look at the two on p. 163. > > > >A classic Carpenter is Frank Carpenter, whose fine photo can > > > >be found at www.geocities.com/fbc.htm. A much more interesting > > > >question would have been, "Were the Carpenter ladies well built"? > > > > > > > >For the record, the reason I don't accept a DeMelun > > > >origin for the Herefordshire Carpenters is not > > > >that I dislike the DeMeluns, but rather the evidence that > > > >supports the connection is a sham. It is the nature > > > >of my profession to assign an "F" for lousy homework and > > > >an "A" for well done homework. Simple as that. > > > > > > > >Sincerely, > > > >Bruce Carpenter > > > > > > > > > > The URL posted above does not work for me but the one below does. > > > > > > http://www.geocities.com/~newgeneration/fbc.htm > > > > > > From a personal observation. > > > > > > I am descended from the Rehoboth clan. I grew up in Barrington, RI > which > > > was once part of Rehoboth. > > > > > > I am more closely related to Bruce Carpenter than any other Carpenter > on > > > the list. We follow the same path from William down to Stephen > Carpenter > > > and Martha Hunt. > > > > > > The observation is: > > > I am small boned and 5'8" tall but have the 29.5 inseam as Tony > mentions.. > > > maybe it's 30". > > > ALL the Carpenters I have ever met were small boned with the exception > of > > > my son who is large boned, 6' and 265 lbs. The biggest Carpenter I know > :) > > > Frank Carpenter( The Painter ) bears a strong resemblance to my family > and > > > a lot of other Carpenters I have known. > > > All of them were very intelligent and worked hard, but not "heavy" > laborers. > > > They were all "artistic" in some way and yes a little eccentric :) > > > > > > And they all loved women, "well built" or not :) > > > > > > Chuck > > > > > > Please visit my web site "Chuck's Wood-Knots" at: > > > http://www.evcom.net/~chuck2/index.html > > > > > > Carpenter Genealogy at: > > > http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Prairie/6712/index.html > > > > > > > > > > -- > > ************************************************** > > | Jerry Carpenter, Managing Principal | > > | CCS - Continental Consulting Strategies | > > | Phone/Fax 253-891-3090 | > > | mailto:jcarp@ccstrat.com | > > | http://www.ccstrat.com | > > ************************************************** > >

Hello everyone! I guess I'll jump in on this one! I have a photograph of my 2nd great-grandmother Clara Aldora Carpenter (certainly not skinny!) at: http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Valley/2822/claracarpenter.html Regards to all, Mike Smith