Hello list, This is in response to several things I've seen posted on this list. Could someone please explain "family" coats-of-arms? I thought that coats-of-arms were only granted to individuals. Also, the Crusades were not the same as the Norman Conquest. From the site www.brighton73.freeserve.co.uk/firstcrusade/Overview/Overview.htm: The First Crusade officially began on November 27, 1095, with a proclamation from Pope Urban II delivered to clergy and lay folk who had gathered in a field in Clermont, central France. Before the armies departed in mid 1096, a People's Crusade jumped the gun and left in March 1096, arriving in Constantinople in August. Some Jews in Europe were attacked along the way, and the People's Crusaders were all but destroyed by the Turks at Civetot. The official armies did not leave until mid 1096, some of their commanders being Raymond IV of St Gilles, Count of Toulouse; Bohemond, Duke of Taranto; Godfrey of Bouillon; Hugh, Count of Vermandois; and Robert, Duke of Normandy. They arrived in Constantinople in early 1097. Their subsequent history is beyond the scope of this Conquest/Crusade reply. I haven't done any comparing of "rosters", but since the First Crusade had many Normans in it, I would think it is possible that some of those involved in the Conquest may have also been Crusaders. Although some viewed the Conquest as a holy venture, my point is that these were two separate events. Thanks, Rick

Please delete....too much bickering.... The world if full of enough negativeness without this too!

Perhaps we all need something new to thing about. Here is some half information for you to look into: A book on the Carpenter family is going to be printed by Pentref Press. I don't have an email address so that's the half you have to look up. Here's the rest; Genealogy USA 'Ship to Shore" Batchelder, Carpenter or Rice End of Century Edition We need 250 orders for each family in order to do its first End-of-Centruy volume. Your $10 deposit on the purchase price of $25.00 for the first volume will add you to the count-down list and you won't be billed for the reaminder until the book is in your hands. (Post publication price will be $35.00.) Specify family (Batchelder/Carpenter/Rice). Unless you have an account, orders must be placed by snail mail with check payable to Pentref Press. P.O. Box 2782, Kennebunkport, ME 04046, Tel/Fax:207-967-3812 Carolyn Carpenter

I have been researching my husbands Ohio Carpenter's for quite a while. My information has been found from local sources, but I am not sure if it is all correct! I have been able to prove some of it. I have been receiving this list for a long time and decided to throw my names in. Lord William Carpenter d 1740 Hamshire Co England ( Unsure of this) son: John Carpenter b 1730 England d 1806 Ohio m Nancy Beaver ca 1760 son: Edward Carpenter b 1761 Va. d 1827 Guernsey Co.,Oh m Catherine Delong son: John Carpenter b 1792 Jefferson Co., d 1873 Killbuck, Holmes Co., Oh m 1819 Massie Stewart, Guernsey Co., Oh son: John Carpenter b 1825 Oh d 1895 Holmes Co Oh. m 1852 Drusilla Shrimplin ( Great grandparents This family had been researched a lot in our county as the Carpenters and Shrimplins were some of the early settlers. I would be happy to share any info that I have. Thanks for your time, Virginia Allison

Who cares which branch of Carpenter he is from! His research is just as important as the Rehoboth/Providence research. Geez, Bruce.....lighten up! BCM! >I notice from your web page (Tara Ann Carpenter) you have a tolerance >for dubious genealogy. Also I notice you have nothing >to do with our Rehoboth/Providence Carpenter family. What not >mind your own business? >BC >

I am not quite sure why this "Tony" does not post this himself. He seems to be able to answer contemporaneous questions or remarks from the list. What is his address? Audrey John Carpenter wrote: > Part 1 - a repeat by popular request. > > Subject: > Re: A historical overview - Part 1 > Date: > Fri, 13 Aug 1999 15:48:02 -0700 > From: > John Carpenter <jrcrin001@home.com> > > > Dear Carpenter Researchers, > > Tony Carpenter in the UK gave permission to have the following article > posted to this forum. > > Thanks Tony! > > John R. Carpenter > La Mesa, CA USA > > A scenario of the roots of Carpenter Family history - Part 1 > > A scenario of the roots of Carpenter Family history using the general > history of France and England starting in the medieval period. > > We the Carpenters are a Military Family and have been involved in > warfare from early mediaeval times to the present day. Generations of > us have been involved and have the knack, if you can call it that, of > surviving. I will include in the pages that follow information on > campaigns that have involved our ancestors. > > Being a military family in medieval times put the family in a position > of power. The formation of the "power base" started in the crusades when > family members fought as Knights through to the Norman Conquest and > beyond. The first recorded reference to the Carpenter's coat of Arms are > shown in a 13th Century document of the third Crusade. Those Knights > with whom the Carpenters fought became confidants and friends, and in > the medieval age such friendship and patronage was essential for > survival, progress, position, and riches. > > The King had the power over life or death of his subjects, upset him and > you could be castrated, disembowelled and hung out for view, not a > pleasant end, so it would be essential to be on good terms with him. As > Norman Knights we had this favoured connection. However, to make sure > of our survival, we made sure we had God on our side in the form of > Religion, with influential contacts within the Church. The most Powerful > man in the family was John the Bishop of Worcester and Westbury. He > became Clerk and Chaplain to the King between 1430 and 1441, a very > powerful position of state. He held many positions of influence, and > became a very wealthy man. I will show his Biography later. The other > Carpenter of note during the same period was John the Younger nephew of > the Bishop who was the Town Clerk of the City of London. They both had > "the King's ear" and it must have help the family position in the early > times. > > London and Bristol were the most important towns of that time. As > ports they were situated on important rivers, had estuaries and > tributaries of the main rivers that went far inland. They became > centres of commerce, trade and transportation. John the Bishop in > Bristol and his Nephew John the younger in London kept the family in > contact with what was going on. A clever ploy, and essential for family > survival. An early example of nepotism. > > The Carpenter families had manor houses close to the rivers, access to > water was their means of travel. It would be easy for the Hereford > Carpenters to travel to France or London by sea, or, for that matter, > the French side of the family the Meluns to travel to England from the > town of Melun by way of the river Seine. I will show this later on a > map. > > Remember, we are looking at the start of our family roots in a very > turgid time. > I have included an extract from a book on Warfare, which I believe > portrays the typical early Carpenter Men. > > KNIGHTS AND MERCENARIES. > > The military structure of mediaeval Europe was dominated by the castle > and the heavily armoured mounted man-at-arms. These two could be > probably be described, in the terms we use today, as the two principal > elements in one integral weapons system. It was essentially defensive. > The Feudal military service was highly regulated. The obligation to > serve was to a person, under a contract clearly understood on both > sides. A benefit was conferred (tenancy of land was by far the most > common form of it) in return for which military service was required. > The time to be served and the distance from home a man might have to > travel on service were both small. In consequence extensive aggression > was difficult to sustain. > > In the hundred years War England was only able to conquer a large part > of France because the English king had feudal claims there. Crusading > expeditions to the Near East demanded the invocation of quite > exceptional sanctions. > > The castle represented a heavy investment in labour and capital, but so, > in other ways, did the knight. The arms and equipment (including the > horse) of an armoured mounted soldier in twelfth-century France or > England might represent the entire income for several years of a little > rural community. > > The military resources of a mediaeval monarch were determined by his > Position as a land-holder. The forces he could summon, even for the > limited time in any year permitted by feudal custom were often exceeded > by those available to men who were his subjects, as for example the > forces of the early Capet kings, in France were outnumbered by those of > the Dukes of Normandy. The permanent forces upon which a king could > count were rarely more than modest. > > The feudal mounted man-at-arms followed his calling primarily for the > maintenance or improvement of the economic and social position of his > family as, a land-holding unit. Military service was one of the only two > ways which were in practice open to him > (the other being holy orders) for the acquisition of further wealth and > prestige. For anyone not in holy orders, rank, dignity, administrative > responsibility and the rewards thereof were all closely related to the > extent of land held in fief. More extensive benefices could be > expected to accrue to the distinguished performer in battle. > Plunder and ransom could also be expected to come the way of the > mediaeval man-at-arms The advantages, finally, of physical strength and > skill at arms in the time public security which followed the collapse of > the Roman institutions need no emphasis. > > The son of a knightly family held land in return for military service, > he was naturally brought up in the use of weapons and in hunting and > robust physical sports more or less closely related to the practice of > war. It would be less usual for him to learn to read and write. His > principal weapons were the horse the lance and a heavy sword (sometimes > two > handed) with a choice of a variety of other minor cutting and stabbing > weapons, and of bruising and crushing weapons such as club or mace. > > Extract from "The Profession of Arms", by General Sir John Hackett > Published 1983 by Sidgewick and Jackson Ltd. in Gt. Britain. > > As you can see, the survival of a family comes down to Power and Power > can take many forms, Fear, Financial insecurity, Ignorance. Fear, as > portrayed in medieval times, and more recently under communist regimes, > fear of the state or ecclesiastical police. Ignorance, as the old > Chinese educational system which decreed that only the ruling classes > could be educated. Financial fears as the capitalist state of today the > Margaret Thatcher principle, controlling the people by debts, through > the banking system, creating a rich and poor society, the "have and have > not syndrome". > > But as we know history shows that none of these work for ever. They are > short term controls. So how has the Carpenter family survived the last > 1000 years? Let us see if we can find the answer in our family tree, do > not expect it to be explained in the form of a tree consisting of only > dates, we need to know what happen to the people involved, why > genetically we are who we are. I noticed when I was living in Florida > USA that every time we put the lights on in the apartment where we were > living, and as soon as it got dark the tree frogs who lived in the > grounds started to climb up our windows. They knew that the insects > that they feed on were attracted to the light, an instant supper table > for them. But how did they know? How long did it take them to work out > that food source? So have the Carpenters found out a way to carry on, > regardless of their situation, are we as quick to adapt to our > circumstances as the tree frogs? I think so. > > The first thing we must understand is that deep down we have the > instinct to survive and that instinct came directly from our earliest > ancestors. It starts from the strong bond of the Family > unit,-------------- > > John R., > As I stated before, all our information has been researched over the > last 15 years by my late brother in his retirement [he, by the way, was > a research engineer attached to Aldermaston the atomic research station > of the UK] and my self. We have a, what we call, hand book of over 100 > pages with information on the UK Carpenters, complete with authenticated > reference sources. The Carpenter connection of the two Johns can be > found in Thomas Brewers life of "John Carpenter Town Clerk of London " > [1856] and I suggest that further reading, Calender of the Pat Rolls. H. > VI 1429-1436 p466. > Prov. & Fellows of Oriel College [1922] p24, by G. C. Richards & > Shadwell . > Hartlebury Castle by Earnest Henry Pearce. Bishop of Worcester, 1926, > published by McMillan. > And futher suggest that the reading of the history of Bristol would be > of interest to some of our researchers. > > I don't want to upset the eminent historians in the Carpenter Family, > or those who are diligently researching our family roots, but I would > like to point out that Genealogy and History are not what one would term > an exact science, so much is open to interpretation. An engineer has to > rely on physics and other exact sciences to formulate his theories! I > therefore maintain that an engineer is quite capable of arriving at > conclusions from data which is available through public record. I > must point out that some you don't really know the British mentality, > the thought that we might wish to claim kinship with nobility is not > within our remit, far from it. I think the living in the USA has given > you the wrong impression of your Cousins in the UK. > The Earl of Tryconnels line died out at his death in 1833. > > There is a further point which Gill, my wife, wishes to make. Gill is > an abbreviation of Gillian, she is a Carpenter by marriage [40 years of > it] and her roots are Cornish through and through, with not a coronet to > be seen, all her ancestors were miners, fishermen and smugglers, and > she's PROUD of it! > > Maybe we now can get on with the project of telling the story of the > Carpenters which I intend to do. > Tony > > to be continued ...

Dear Tony, The Carpenters of the Domesday book has been asked before by Bruce E. Carpenter. Here is a forward of that message. Sincerely, John R. Carpenter La Mesa, CA USA --------- Begin forwarded message ---------- From: jrcrin001 To: carp@tezukayama-u.ac.jp, Ohio Carpenters - Caleb (John Caleb) Cc: Regular EMail Mowrey97, JLC HOME, Terry Lee Carpenter, demott@voyager.net Subject: Re: Carpenters Date: Tue, 11 Aug 1998 15:36:25 -0700 Message-ID: <19980811.153742.3582.0.jrcrin001@juno.com> References: <199808102343.IAA13426@tezukayama-u.ac.jp> Dear Bruce, Commoners did not hold land in England in this time period. Thus a lowly kings carpenter would never hold land unless he was elevated quite abit in station. A "servant" had different meaning then also. A servant held allegiance or fealty to his King. A commoner would be a serf (1200s) not worth mentioning in the Domesday Book. Knights, lords etc were servants of the King. The "chain of command" so to speak would preclude a kings carpenter from holding station sush as a Lord of a land. The pecking order was often worth dying over. A King would never put a lowly kings carpenter as a Lord of a Land unless he wanted to be overthrown. An usher in this time period was one of some importance. They escorted people into the King's presence. Thus an usher was like the last defensive man of the King, allowing the individual past the bodyguards. Thus William the usher was used as a title of respect & note. In 1086 William the carpenter De Melun (just elevated to Lord of Melun in 1084) went to Spain to fight the Moors. In the 1087 Domesday Book, his lands in England were parceled out to his descendants. Rayner, was a Lord in the land of Rayner. A Durand was mentioned at least twice with other references to titles, but it is not clear if they were the same person. Names were not as static as today. A person was none as the son of or by a nickname. Later upon entitlement they became known as lords, Knights, Signeurs, Barons etc of a town, land etc. Thus a person like a guy named Bouchard (actual person) eventually had over 27 titles or different names. If you lived past your young fighting days, you would usually live (if you were a noble) past 60. Thus, the young sought new titles for themselves. Durand the carpenter could have become Durand the Sheriff for example. I hope this clairfies things abit. Sincerely, John R. Carpenter Working on a Carpenter 2000 CD. 5850 Yorkshire Ave. Carpenter GEDCOMS Wanted! La Mesa, CA 91942-2821 I will share my data for your data. U.S.A. (619) 466-5910 Fax / voice message - E-mail address: jrcrin001@juno.com On Tue, 11 Aug 1998 20:43:30 -0400 "carpenter" <carp@tezukayama-u.ac.jp> writes: >John: > >I was reading through Domesday Book and found an additional reference >to Durand Carpenter that you seemed to miss, or at least >didn't include in your report to me. This particular reference >seemed to me to be of importance to Carpenter history. >It appears on p. 95 of the Then and Now edition for Moulham and >reads, "Durand Carpenter, the king's servant". > >The fact that a Carpenter was a personal servant of >William the Bastard was a complete surprise to me. One of the >other references to Durand, and one you had pointed out to >me, reads "Durand the Carpenter" on p. 93 for Affington. >There is another reference for Durand on p. 96 for Wilkswood. >He is referred to as "Durand Carpenter" there. > >Other references using the expression "the king's servant" >can be found for William the Usher under Bolham on >p. 77. The terms "the usher" and the "the carpenter" are clear >in their discriptions of household duties. Clearly Durand was >a working axe and chisel carpenter. > >Another important reference is on p. 48 for >Waterbeach which reads, "2 of the king's carpenters". These >references and many more like them are indications that household >servants were receiving lands from King William. > >The other two Carpenters in Domesday, Stephen and Rayner, are >unaccounted >for >in respect to class and profession. I suspect however that they were >carpenters by trade themselves or at least related to Durand. >I don't want to in any way condescend to Durand. He did very well for >himself >with his three land holdings in Dorcet. He must have produced a >lineage >of later descendants like the other "Butlers" , "Bakers", "Goldsmiths" >and >"Chamberlains" who had humble beginnings in the King's household. > >We cannot make any connection of these Carpenters and carpenters to >other individuals in England or on the continent. However these first >references >to the surname Carpenter give complete support to the tradtional >"artisan" origin of the Carpenter family name. > > > >Sincerely >Bruce E. Carpenter >

Dear Tony, Here is some data that Bruce E. Carpenter asked on the same subject. Hope it helps, John R. Carpenter La Mesa, CA --------- Begin forwarded message ---------- From: jrcrin001 To: carp@tezukayama-u.ac.jp Subject: Re: Coat-of-Arms Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 12:00:21 -0700 Message-ID: <19980716.120037.11214.4.jrcrin001@juno.com> References: <199807150428.NAA04123@tezukayama-u.ac.jp> Dear Bruce, This question has many answers. The reason for this is which Hertefordshire line? Several Coat-of-Arms came out of this line. Their ancestry however is common with William "the carpenter" De Melun. Thus the oldest Herfordshire line carries the same basic Coat of Arms as William's. William Carpenter of Homme is the traditional ancestor or founder of the American line. See the data below. The notes for him describe the Coat of Arms, history et cetera. I hope this answers your question. Sincerely, John R. Carpenter Working on a Carpenter 2000 CD. 5850 Yorkshire Ave. Carpenter GEDCOMS Wanted! La Mesa, CA 91942-2821 I will share my data for your data. U.S.A. (619) 466-5910 Fax / voice message - E-mail address: jrcrin001@juno.com On Thu, 16 Jul 1998 01:28:50 -0400 "carpenter" <carp@tezukayama-u.ac.jp> writes: >John: >Could you take a minute to answer a question. >What does the oldest known Herfordshire-Carpenter >arms look like, and specifically what crest? > >yours, >Bruce Carpenter >Nara Japan > **********************************jrc insert ************************************************ INDIVIDUAL DATA RIN:91 - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Name:William CARPENTER William of Homme Sex:M ID No:8LC0-35 Birth:Abt 1440 Place:Homme,Hertfordshire,England Chr: Place: Marr: Spouse:(CARPENTER)-700 Marr: Spouse: Marr: Spouse: Death:Abt 1520 Place:of,Dilwyne,Herefordshire,England Burial:Abt 1520 Place:of,Dilwyne,Herefordshire,England Father:John the younger CARPENTER-90 Mother:(CARPENTER)-702 Notes - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ !WILLIAM OF HOMME RESIDED IN PART OF DILWYNE, HEREFORDSHIRE, ENGLAND PER 1898 BOOK. SEE ALSO GENEALOGICAL & FAMILY HISTORY OF WESTERN NEW YORK BY LEWIS 1912. PAGE 1252 AND 1317. PAGE 1317 GIVES BIRTH ABOUT 1480 INSTEAD OF 1440. IT IS POSSIBLE THAT THE REAL "WILLIAM OF HOMME" WAS THE SON OF THIS WILLIAM? !AKA: William of Hereford. !AFN 8LC0-35 is the same as AFN 4JG8-24 & AFN 4JG8-XL. !Believed to be the common ancestor of all English Carpenter's in America. !Oxford University records indicate that William of Hereford had sons James, John, William and Richard. !Holm is a saxon word signifying "a woody situation." !The property at Homme or Holm stayed in the family until 1787, when it passed to the Deverux and Peploe Family. Per Robinson's "Mansions and Manors of Herefordshire." In 1873 it was the residence of Lady Frances Vernon Harcourt, who was the daughter of John Lothrop Motley, the distinguished American Historian. !This William of Homme is the common ancestor of our Carpenter Family in America. Coat of Arms is a common way of tracing lineage. ********* The arms granted to Lord George Carpenter in 1719, as published in the account of his life (The Life and Times of Lord George . . .) were Pally of six, argent and gules on a chevron, azure,three cross crosslets, or. CREST, on a wreath a globe in a frame all or. Supporters, two horses, party-perfess, embattled argent and gules. MOTTO: "Per Actua Belli" (Through the Asperities of War). John the Elder, Bishop, granduncle to this William, had the same Coat of Arms. The same arms, less the supporters and motto, were used by the Herefordshire Carpenter family and were emblazoned in a glass window of the college and church at Westbury upon Trin as early as 1443. They were placed there by permanently by Bishop John (the Elder) Carpenter of Worcester, who was a native of Westbury and a great benefactor of the college, having rebuilt and refounded it. Bishop John Carpenter died in 1476 and was buried in the church, where a plain altar monument was errected to his memory. This church (in 1890) is the Holy Trinity of Bristol, and is described in Willi's Survey of Cathedrals, published in 1742. And in Atykn's and Rudder's History of Gloucester where there is a very interesting sketch of Bishop John Carpenter who was also known as "Master John Carpenter" mentioned in the will of the town clerk of London, John Carpenter, the younger. !FOUNDER: William Carpenter of Homme is concidered the common ancestor of the following branches of the Carpenter Family: - REHOBOTH, MA Branch - Capt. William C. son of William (who married Elizabeth the daughter of John of James the son of William of Homme) of Robert (who married Eleanor C. daughter of Robert of William the son of William of Homme) of William of Robert of Richard the son of William of Homme. - PROVIDENCE, RI Branch - William of Amesbury C. son of Richard of Robert (who married Eleanor C. - see above) of William (who married Elizabeth C. - see above) of Robert of Richard the son of William of Homme. - PHILADELPHIA, PA Branch - Samuel the son of John the Sheriff of Robert, of Stephen of Robert of William the son of William of Homme. - VIRGINIA BRANCH - Nathaniel Carpenter through his sons John and Joseph. Nathaniel was the son of Joseph Carpenter, the grandson of William Carpenter of Amesbury, the founder of the PROVIDENCE, RI Branch of the Carpenters. Nathaniel was the son of Hannah Carpenter, the grandson of Captain William Carpenter, the founder of the REHOBOTH, MA Branch of the Carpenters. - LORD LINES - William of Cobham (of William of Alexander of William of John of James the son of William of Homme) who was granted a Coat of Arms in 1663. AND - Warncomb Carpenter (of Thomas of James of James of William of John of James the son of William of Homme) whose youngest son, George became page to the Earl of Montague, and on account of faithful service rendered to the Crown was created "Baron Carpenter of Killaghy" in 1719. - FEMALE LINE NOT LISTED ABOVE - Alice Carpenter (of Alexander of William of John of James the son of William of Homme) who married a Edward Southworth then married Govenor William Bradford of Plymouth Colony. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ end --------- End forwarded message ----------

Dear Tony, Here is some data that Bruce E. Carpenter asked on the same subject. Hope it helps, John R. Carpenter La Mesa, CA --------- Begin forwarded message ---------- From: jrcrin001 To: carp@tezukayama-u.ac.jp Subject: Re: Coat-of-Arms Date: Thu, 16 Jul 1998 12:00:21 -0700 Message-ID: <19980716.120037.11214.4.jrcrin001@juno.com> References: <199807150428.NAA04123@tezukayama-u.ac.jp> Dear Bruce, This question has many answers. The reason for this is which Hertefordshire line? Several Coat-of-Arms came out of this line. Their ancestry however is common with William "the carpenter" De Melun. Thus the oldest Herfordshire line carries the same basic Coat of Arms as William's. William Carpenter of Homme is the traditional ancestor or founder of the American line. See the data below. The notes for him describe the Coat of Arms, history et cetera. I hope this answers your question. Sincerely, John R. Carpenter Working on a Carpenter 2000 CD. 5850 Yorkshire Ave. Carpenter GEDCOMS Wanted! La Mesa, CA 91942-2821 I will share my data for your data. U.S.A. (619) 466-5910 Fax / voice message - E-mail address: jrcrin001@juno.com On Thu, 16 Jul 1998 01:28:50 -0400 "carpenter" <carp@tezukayama-u.ac.jp> writes: >John: >Could you take a minute to answer a question. >What does the oldest known Herfordshire-Carpenter >arms look like, and specifically what crest? > >yours, >Bruce Carpenter >Nara Japan > **********************************jrc insert ************************************************ INDIVIDUAL DATA RIN:91 - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Name:William CARPENTER William of Homme Sex:M ID No:8LC0-35 Birth:Abt 1440 Place:Homme,Hertfordshire,England Chr: Place: Marr: Spouse:(CARPENTER)-700 Marr: Spouse: Marr: Spouse: Death:Abt 1520 Place:of,Dilwyne,Herefordshire,England Burial:Abt 1520 Place:of,Dilwyne,Herefordshire,England Father:John the younger CARPENTER-90 Mother:(CARPENTER)-702 Notes - ------------------------------------------------------------------------ !WILLIAM OF HOMME RESIDED IN PART OF DILWYNE, HEREFORDSHIRE, ENGLAND PER 1898 BOOK. SEE ALSO GENEALOGICAL & FAMILY HISTORY OF WESTERN NEW YORK BY LEWIS 1912. PAGE 1252 AND 1317. PAGE 1317 GIVES BIRTH ABOUT 1480 INSTEAD OF 1440. IT IS POSSIBLE THAT THE REAL "WILLIAM OF HOMME" WAS THE SON OF THIS WILLIAM? !AKA: William of Hereford. !AFN 8LC0-35 is the same as AFN 4JG8-24 & AFN 4JG8-XL. !Believed to be the common ancestor of all English Carpenter's in America. !Oxford University records indicate that William of Hereford had sons James, John, William and Richard. !Holm is a saxon word signifying "a woody situation." !The property at Homme or Holm stayed in the family until 1787, when it passed to the Deverux and Peploe Family. Per Robinson's "Mansions and Manors of Herefordshire." In 1873 it was the residence of Lady Frances Vernon Harcourt, who was the daughter of John Lothrop Motley, the distinguished American Historian. !This William of Homme is the common ancestor of our Carpenter Family in America. Coat of Arms is a common way of tracing lineage. ********* The arms granted to Lord George Carpenter in 1719, as published in the account of his life (The Life and Times of Lord George . . .) were Pally of six, argent and gules on a chevron, azure,three cross crosslets, or. CREST, on a wreath a globe in a frame all or. Supporters, two horses, party-perfess, embattled argent and gules. MOTTO: "Per Actua Belli" (Through the Asperities of War). John the Elder, Bishop, granduncle to this William, had the same Coat of Arms. The same arms, less the supporters and motto, were used by the Herefordshire Carpenter family and were emblazoned in a glass window of the college and church at Westbury upon Trin as early as 1443. They were placed there by permanently by Bishop John (the Elder) Carpenter of Worcester, who was a native of Westbury and a great benefactor of the college, having rebuilt and refounded it. Bishop John Carpenter died in 1476 and was buried in the church, where a plain altar monument was errected to his memory. This church (in 1890) is the Holy Trinity of Bristol, and is described in Willi's Survey of Cathedrals, published in 1742. And in Atykn's and Rudder's History of Gloucester where there is a very interesting sketch of Bishop John Carpenter who was also known as "Master John Carpenter" mentioned in the will of the town clerk of London, John Carpenter, the younger. !FOUNDER: William Carpenter of Homme is concidered the common ancestor of the following branches of the Carpenter Family: - REHOBOTH, MA Branch - Capt. William C. son of William (who married Elizabeth the daughter of John of James the son of William of Homme) of Robert (who married Eleanor C. daughter of Robert of William the son of William of Homme) of William of Robert of Richard the son of William of Homme. - PROVIDENCE, RI Branch - William of Amesbury C. son of Richard of Robert (who married Eleanor C. - see above) of William (who married Elizabeth C. - see above) of Robert of Richard the son of William of Homme. - PHILADELPHIA, PA Branch - Samuel the son of John the Sheriff of Robert, of Stephen of Robert of William the son of William of Homme. - VIRGINIA BRANCH - Nathaniel Carpenter through his sons John and Joseph. Nathaniel was the son of Joseph Carpenter, the grandson of William Carpenter of Amesbury, the founder of the PROVIDENCE, RI Branch of the Carpenters. Nathaniel was the son of Hannah Carpenter, the grandson of Captain William Carpenter, the founder of the REHOBOTH, MA Branch of the Carpenters. - LORD LINES - William of Cobham (of William of Alexander of William of John of James the son of William of Homme) who was granted a Coat of Arms in 1663. AND - Warncomb Carpenter (of Thomas of James of James of William of John of James the son of William of Homme) whose youngest son, George became page to the Earl of Montague, and on account of faithful service rendered to the Crown was created "Baron Carpenter of Killaghy" in 1719. - FEMALE LINE NOT LISTED ABOVE - Alice Carpenter (of Alexander of William of John of James the son of William of Homme) who married a Edward Southworth then married Govenor William Bradford of Plymouth Colony. - ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ end --------- End forwarded message ----------

Chuck: I notice from your web page (Tara Ann Carpenter) you have a tolerance for dubious genealogy. Also I notice you have nothing to do with our Rehoboth/Providence Carpenter family. What not mind your own business? BC -----Original Message----- From: CHUCKATSBS@aol.com <CHUCKATSBS@aol.com> To: CARPENTER-L@rootsweb.com <CARPENTER-L@rootsweb.com> Date: Wednesday, September 08, 1999 8:39 PM Subject: Re: Tony Again???? >Geez, "professor," you sure are a slow learner! Ad hominems are poor >substitutes for civilized discourse. >

Repeated by popular request! Subject: Part 2 by Tony Carpenter in the UK Date: Wed, 01 Sep 1999 20:09:12 -0700 From: John Carpenter <jrcrin001@home.com> Organization: @Home Network To: "CARPENTER-L@rootsweb.com" <CARPENTER-L@rootsweb.com> Dear Folks, Tony has a sense of "humour" ... TC- "Do you keep a troshin" is a local Norfolk saying. It comes from the days when the peasants spent their days picking up stones off the fields for the Farmer, It meant "do you keep a going". JRC- Keep on Trucking - 18 & 4 Wheeler version. "Keep Tromping" is another version popular at the turn of the century and was even in a popular song "Tromp Tromp Tromp!" TC- Here is another saying "Hold you hard" I had great fun with that one when I answered the Phone in the USA. have a guess at that. JRC- Anybody got a guess for that? JRC- My favorite English phrase is "Come on by and knock me up." It means come on by my house and knock on my door! Here is another few pages of Tony carpenter's material. ***************************************************** By Tony Carpenter in the UK Part 2 -----any family that has survived from the early days of history has this determination to bond. Why ask you do you want to find your ancestors and living relations, why are trying to contact each other does it give you a comfortable feeling of security to know there is many of us in this world left to progress the family forward through to many generations of the new Millennium. Man has been blessed with the urge to be creative it is a driving force that sets us apart from others in the animal kingdom. The human race has develop in all respects from this, The creation of the family as we no it today, to the conquest of outer space, comes from this driving force. When this urge is diminished as in some branches of a family they fade away from history, as will the human race when it losses the ability to be creative it will turn on its self and destroy all that has been constructed over the generations. I am happy and contented that my particular branch of the Carpenters is still branching out to occupy several generations to come and are blessed with the creative desire, and I hope that there are many others doing the same. A thousand years of one Family's history. What will be the consequence of this information on today's generation? Pride, shame, guilt, or an attempt to find the answer to the old age question "Who am I and why do I look and act in the way I do." Can genealogy explain these questions? How do we put it in a form that can be analysed so a conclusion can be reached? Can we rely on ancient documents and other records to give us an insight of our ancestors in a given period of time, or by studying the history of the period. We have to, as it is the only reference available to us, but we must always understand that all material is open to interpretation. The CARPENTER Family has been researched back to the 10th century and traced to the French family of Melun. There are many branches of the tree and some seventy thousand names are included in the database. This book is only looking at my line that has been researched by my late brother and I, working together for over fifteen years, plus associated branches of interest. I have decided that our work should now be recorded and distributed in the year of the millennium, a thousand years of one family. I will try to explain in plain English what effect it has had on my family and me. The name of Carpenter comes from the Crusading French Knight, the Viscount de Melun born about 1042. He was nicknamed "The Carpenter" "because of the weighty strokes of his battle axe in battle." The great strength and axe were associated with the carpenter's trade. "No weapon could [opponents' weapons that is] be found that could withstand the power of his strikes. The heaviness of his weapons resulted of him being feared in combats". Carpenters of the time must have been among the most "well built people" Let us look at this last paragraph "well built people". Today the family are still well built and strong, our average height is 5ft 10inches, Chest 44inches, inside leg measurement 29 1/2 inches, You must have the inside leg measurement to be a true Carpenter, a standing joke in the family. Where did this saying originate? I can remember my father saying it, and I have repeated it to my grandchildren. So can we surmise that physical attributes as well as family sayings can be passed down from generation to generation? At the age of seventy I can remember five generations of our family. I spent some time in Orlando Florida USA. The condominium complex we were living in was managed by a Carpenter, Evelyn Garrison. She remarked to me that I looked just like one of her uncles, she showed some old pictures and sure enough there was the Family Likeness including the white beard that I have. She introduced me to one of her grandchildren who was almost identical in appearance to one of my brother Denis's children. It would seem that our physical make up has been handed down through the Generations. Only today I was looking across the park to where my grandchildren were playing, and for an instant I thought that the eldest grandson was my son [his father]. I believe this true in most families even when a child is young someone will say he is the spitting image of so. Photographs will show the similarity of appearance later in the book. Again I would like you to think on this have you ever thought you had been at a place before? It has happen to me twice in my life. I once went to the town of Byfleet and it felt so familiar to me, I knew I had not been there before. It was not until we trace the family that I found several of my ancestors had lived and died there and they were resting in the churchyard. The other time is when I served in the Army in Palestine and Malta I felt that I knew the country and the people. I cannot explain this in a way that you will believe but I am sure I am not the only one amongst us who have had these feelings. Am I proud of being associated with a Crusading Knight? I know of one member of the family, a historian, who is trying to disassociate us from this connection, "a mass murderer" I must admit when I read the history of the crusades, I was horrified at the extent of the killing and cruelty. Should I feel shame, should I hide the connection? Definitely not. A family history must show a true record of its roots, warts and all, it is not up for censorship. So we have Saints and Sinners in the family, light and dark. As an artist I know that you must have contrast in your picture to show the full beauty of the subject. Every family has it black sheep, and we must not judge our ancestors on the morals of today. Only the strong survived in the early days of history, and it helped if you were a Knight or a Bishop, and we had both in the family. Can you alter history we know we cannot but only learn from it but do we? I think not; our arm forces are still sent out to crusade by the politicians to right the wrongs in their eyes. Have we changed? We will start our family tree from William The Carpenter, but will included his conceivable ancestors from 920. I will try to write this book so you the reader find it interesting and informative, and in plain English. I hope it might help you understand who you are and explain why you act and have ways of behaving which are quite natural to you; but in other people's eyes be a little eccentric. Lets start at the beginning as good as place as any. The French town of Melun is believed to be our family seat. Caesar said of Melun that it was a town of great importance. The Normans sack the town in 845. And it was siege in the year of 1429-30 by Charles the VII. Severely damaged in 1944. A Prefecture and market Town. The ancient town expanded from an island in the river of the Seine very close too the Forrest of Fontainnebleau and the castle of Vaux {c 1615-61} It has two very old churches. Known through its history for the production of the famous French cheese Brei and Beauce. also glass, pottery, leather and sugar refining. King Hughes Capet gave Melun to his favourite Bouchard. In the reign of Robert Eudes the count of Champagne bought the town. It was taken back by the King in the year of 999 it had been sold by Le Chateleen and his wife they did not profit long as the king had them hung. A sad end for an estate agent though, I know some of you would agree with this punishment. Josselin I. was the first of the line, that has been traced to date, named Viscount of Melun, born 920. He gave the village Noisy-le-Sec to the monastery of Saint Maur-des-Fossez. He then took up the monk's habit that is where he died on the 19 March in Year of 998 or 999. His death caused a feud between the Manasses who took the side of Le Chatelian, who was his grandson and his rightful heir Herve. The following line is the best guess to date from all the information we have at hand to date, a list of all documents researched will be noted at the end of this book. I ask the reader to get from his mind that travelling any distance was not as simple as it is to day, they had no cars to jump in and go on to a motorway, Because the family was based on the river Seine it gave them a highway to travel abroad. Descendants of Josselin I DE Melun to be continued ...

Part 1 - a repeat by popular request. Subject: Re: A historical overview - Part 1 Date: Fri, 13 Aug 1999 15:48:02 -0700 From: John Carpenter <jrcrin001@home.com> Dear Carpenter Researchers, Tony Carpenter in the UK gave permission to have the following article posted to this forum. Thanks Tony! John R. Carpenter La Mesa, CA USA A scenario of the roots of Carpenter Family history - Part 1 A scenario of the roots of Carpenter Family history using the general history of France and England starting in the medieval period. We the Carpenters are a Military Family and have been involved in warfare from early mediaeval times to the present day. Generations of us have been involved and have the knack, if you can call it that, of surviving. I will include in the pages that follow information on campaigns that have involved our ancestors. Being a military family in medieval times put the family in a position of power. The formation of the "power base" started in the crusades when family members fought as Knights through to the Norman Conquest and beyond. The first recorded reference to the Carpenter's coat of Arms are shown in a 13th Century document of the third Crusade. Those Knights with whom the Carpenters fought became confidants and friends, and in the medieval age such friendship and patronage was essential for survival, progress, position, and riches. The King had the power over life or death of his subjects, upset him and you could be castrated, disembowelled and hung out for view, not a pleasant end, so it would be essential to be on good terms with him. As Norman Knights we had this favoured connection. However, to make sure of our survival, we made sure we had God on our side in the form of Religion, with influential contacts within the Church. The most Powerful man in the family was John the Bishop of Worcester and Westbury. He became Clerk and Chaplain to the King between 1430 and 1441, a very powerful position of state. He held many positions of influence, and became a very wealthy man. I will show his Biography later. The other Carpenter of note during the same period was John the Younger nephew of the Bishop who was the Town Clerk of the City of London. They both had "the King's ear" and it must have help the family position in the early times. London and Bristol were the most important towns of that time. As ports they were situated on important rivers, had estuaries and tributaries of the main rivers that went far inland. They became centres of commerce, trade and transportation. John the Bishop in Bristol and his Nephew John the younger in London kept the family in contact with what was going on. A clever ploy, and essential for family survival. An early example of nepotism. The Carpenter families had manor houses close to the rivers, access to water was their means of travel. It would be easy for the Hereford Carpenters to travel to France or London by sea, or, for that matter, the French side of the family the Meluns to travel to England from the town of Melun by way of the river Seine. I will show this later on a map. Remember, we are looking at the start of our family roots in a very turgid time. I have included an extract from a book on Warfare, which I believe portrays the typical early Carpenter Men. KNIGHTS AND MERCENARIES. The military structure of mediaeval Europe was dominated by the castle and the heavily armoured mounted man-at-arms. These two could be probably be described, in the terms we use today, as the two principal elements in one integral weapons system. It was essentially defensive. The Feudal military service was highly regulated. The obligation to serve was to a person, under a contract clearly understood on both sides. A benefit was conferred (tenancy of land was by far the most common form of it) in return for which military service was required. The time to be served and the distance from home a man might have to travel on service were both small. In consequence extensive aggression was difficult to sustain. In the hundred years War England was only able to conquer a large part of France because the English king had feudal claims there. Crusading expeditions to the Near East demanded the invocation of quite exceptional sanctions. The castle represented a heavy investment in labour and capital, but so, in other ways, did the knight. The arms and equipment (including the horse) of an armoured mounted soldier in twelfth-century France or England might represent the entire income for several years of a little rural community. The military resources of a mediaeval monarch were determined by his Position as a land-holder. The forces he could summon, even for the limited time in any year permitted by feudal custom were often exceeded by those available to men who were his subjects, as for example the forces of the early Capet kings, in France were outnumbered by those of the Dukes of Normandy. The permanent forces upon which a king could count were rarely more than modest. The feudal mounted man-at-arms followed his calling primarily for the maintenance or improvement of the economic and social position of his family as, a land-holding unit. Military service was one of the only two ways which were in practice open to him (the other being holy orders) for the acquisition of further wealth and prestige. For anyone not in holy orders, rank, dignity, administrative responsibility and the rewards thereof were all closely related to the extent of land held in fief. More extensive benefices could be expected to accrue to the distinguished performer in battle. Plunder and ransom could also be expected to come the way of the mediaeval man-at-arms The advantages, finally, of physical strength and skill at arms in the time public security which followed the collapse of the Roman institutions need no emphasis. The son of a knightly family held land in return for military service, he was naturally brought up in the use of weapons and in hunting and robust physical sports more or less closely related to the practice of war. It would be less usual for him to learn to read and write. His principal weapons were the horse the lance and a heavy sword (sometimes two handed) with a choice of a variety of other minor cutting and stabbing weapons, and of bruising and crushing weapons such as club or mace. Extract from "The Profession of Arms", by General Sir John Hackett Published 1983 by Sidgewick and Jackson Ltd. in Gt. Britain. As you can see, the survival of a family comes down to Power and Power can take many forms, Fear, Financial insecurity, Ignorance. Fear, as portrayed in medieval times, and more recently under communist regimes, fear of the state or ecclesiastical police. Ignorance, as the old Chinese educational system which decreed that only the ruling classes could be educated. Financial fears as the capitalist state of today the Margaret Thatcher principle, controlling the people by debts, through the banking system, creating a rich and poor society, the "have and have not syndrome". But as we know history shows that none of these work for ever. They are short term controls. So how has the Carpenter family survived the last 1000 years? Let us see if we can find the answer in our family tree, do not expect it to be explained in the form of a tree consisting of only dates, we need to know what happen to the people involved, why genetically we are who we are. I noticed when I was living in Florida USA that every time we put the lights on in the apartment where we were living, and as soon as it got dark the tree frogs who lived in the grounds started to climb up our windows. They knew that the insects that they feed on were attracted to the light, an instant supper table for them. But how did they know? How long did it take them to work out that food source? So have the Carpenters found out a way to carry on, regardless of their situation, are we as quick to adapt to our circumstances as the tree frogs? I think so. The first thing we must understand is that deep down we have the instinct to survive and that instinct came directly from our earliest ancestors. It starts from the strong bond of the Family unit,-------------- John R., As I stated before, all our information has been researched over the last 15 years by my late brother in his retirement [he, by the way, was a research engineer attached to Aldermaston the atomic research station of the UK] and my self. We have a, what we call, hand book of over 100 pages with information on the UK Carpenters, complete with authenticated reference sources. The Carpenter connection of the two Johns can be found in Thomas Brewers life of "John Carpenter Town Clerk of London " [1856] and I suggest that further reading, Calender of the Pat Rolls. H. VI 1429-1436 p466. Prov. & Fellows of Oriel College [1922] p24, by G. C. Richards & Shadwell . Hartlebury Castle by Earnest Henry Pearce. Bishop of Worcester, 1926, published by McMillan. And futher suggest that the reading of the history of Bristol would be of interest to some of our researchers. I don't want to upset the eminent historians in the Carpenter Family, or those who are diligently researching our family roots, but I would like to point out that Genealogy and History are not what one would term an exact science, so much is open to interpretation. An engineer has to rely on physics and other exact sciences to formulate his theories! I therefore maintain that an engineer is quite capable of arriving at conclusions from data which is available through public record. I must point out that some you don't really know the British mentality, the thought that we might wish to claim kinship with nobility is not within our remit, far from it. I think the living in the USA has given you the wrong impression of your Cousins in the UK. The Earl of Tryconnels line died out at his death in 1833. There is a further point which Gill, my wife, wishes to make. Gill is an abbreviation of Gillian, she is a Carpenter by marriage [40 years of it] and her roots are Cornish through and through, with not a coronet to be seen, all her ancestors were miners, fishermen and smugglers, and she's PROUD of it! Maybe we now can get on with the project of telling the story of the Carpenters which I intend to do. Tony to be continued ...

What is wrong with this stuff? Everything. First there is no coat-of-arms for William DeMelun. He lived a good 150 years before their first primitive use. The armorials of the later DeMelun family are completely different. Secondly, Count de Melan is not Count de Melun. Thorkill of Arden is the Count of Melan. This is the way aristocrats names are listed. Thirdly, Durand, Stephen and Rayner are three carpenters of the trade. They are not the only board-bangers who received land from King William. However, they were three who were named. To claim they are the sons of Mr. DeMelun is completely unfounded, without even the slightest shred of fact. etc., etc., etc. Why is LaMesa John serving up Tony? It is because he wants us to believe his own bogus research. There can be no doubt LaMesa John is the very source of Tony's material. LaMesa John is dishonest. Sadly, Bruce E. Carpenter

Geez, "professor," you sure are a slow learner! Ad hominems are poor substitutes for civilized discourse.

Hi all, I am new to this list and I have just started my carpenter search. My name is kathryn dawn kessell but my maiden name was carpenter. Line I am seeking information on is an Earl CARPENTER married a Florence ?. They had a Thomas Bee CARPENTER who married an Ova Lee SHADRICK. They had a Thomas Lee CARPENTER b.abt 1943 who married a Mary Kathryn EAKIN. I really don't know any more...got all this from my sisters baby book. An info would be a reat help. Thanks so much kate http://community.webtv.net/kategen/Buildingafamilys

Hi to all the Carpenter family researcher's. I found this wonderful quote and wanted to share it with you. I don't know who the Author is but I think he/she has a great definition of what Genealogy is all about. " To know the identity of our ancestors is both an honor and privilege. To study the many details of the lives of our ancestors is to be with them through their lifetime." Lucy

This part was too long for the server. Here is the last part. So our ancestor, about 1104 to 1109 AD, who gave the name Carpenter to our family from the French family passed on to the great battlefield in the sky. What had he been doing between fighting? It would seem he spent his time between Melun in France and his estates in England, bringing up a family as the records following show. All William's assets were passed down to his eldest son. One can assume that the other sons had to find their fortunes elsewhere. From the details below we can see that the family must have moved to England some time after 1066. All the children were born in France, but Rayner, Stephen, and Durand died in England. They were shown in the Domesday Book of 1086 as Landholders. The lands in England given by the King to William Count of Melun and Thorkill of Arden were in Warwickshire. Worcester, Gloucester, Wiltshire, Herefordshire and Dorset. Each had its own castle, and with the surrounding lands owned by the owner of the castle, could explain the large spread of the Family in later years. This leads us to the descendants of William the Carpenter. Before we leave William let us imagine what he looked like, We know how he was dressed for battle but he had to take off his chain mail sometimes. The History of Dress tells that he probably wore a Tunic, the richness of design depended on the work of female relations. The more wealthy you were, the better the quality of cloth and colour. The sleeves of the tunic were long and tight-fitting pushed up to show a series of folds to the biceps. Sometimes the tunic was split up the sides, and always finished with a band of embroidery. He also wore Brais and hose, the brais [or breeches] were like our pyjama trousers, but slightly closer at the ankle and made of linen, they were sometimes bound with cross gartering or worn with short hose from ankle to knee. The hose had no foot unless they happened to be leather or felt then they resembled a tight fitting boot. Shoes were made of flexible leather, worn over the bare foot. [see illustration] What did they eat? The peasants lived on a coarse bread made of wholemeal bread or maslin [wheat and rye or beans]. They would consume up to five pounds of bread a day together, when it was available, with some meat, vegetables, cheese, milk and butter, washed down with quantities of weak ale, which might explain why the English still enjoy their real ale today. William would also be able to have venison, birds and fish, a far better diet. Honey was used for sweetening. The supply of food depended on so many things, the weather, price of wheat, and his Lordship's generosity. Stealing was a hanging offence even if you were starving. I believe that people, through their ancestors develop genetically to thrive on food that is common to their native country. Bread and Ale through to Roast Beef and Beer, staple food of my time. My mother could make the Sunday joint of Beef feed us for three days. Sunday Dinner was of course the main family meal of the week. Roast Beef, Roast potatoes, Yorkshire Pudding, seasonal vegetables. Monday would feature Cold beef with possibly Bubble and squeak, a mixture of the vegetable leftovers with potatoes fried as a mash. The concocted meal was made easy as Monday was traditionally "wash day" when the week's laundry was the main chore of the day. Tuesday's dinner was cottage pie, minced left over beef with a potato topping, cooked in the oven. I can recommend this diet to my American cousins, but I might be too late to save them from the dreaded burger. All new food was introduced slowly, as it was largely controlled by price and availability. This is not so now. Over the last twenty years, our supermarkets have been able to import new foods within days, and by so doing have revolutionised the diet of generations. As soon as new fashionable foods are available, they are on the shelves. There is no such thing as a vegetable or a fruit "in season". I am not too sure if this is such a good thing. The first English strawberries of the season used to be a special treat, now if we wish it, we can eat imported strawberries at Christmas, though the flavour is not the same. Descendants of William "the Carpenter" DE Melun WILLIAM "THE CARPENTER" DE4 MELUN (URSION I DE3, HERVE DE2, JOSSELIN I DE1) was born Abt. 1042 in of Melun, Seine-et-Marne, Ile De France, France, and died Abt. 1104/1109 in the Ile De France region of France. Children of WILLIAM "THE CARPENTER" DE MELUN are: i. RAYNER CARPENTER, b. Abt. 1060, of Melun, Seine-et-Marne, Ile De France, France; d. of, Herefordshire, England. ii. STEPHEN CARPENTER, b. Abt. 1062, of Melun, Seine-et-Marne, Ile De France, France; d. of, Wiltshire, England. iii. DURAND CARPENTER, b. Abt. 1064, of Melun, Seine-et-Marne, Ile De France, France; d. of, Dorsetshire, England. iv. URISON II DE5 MELUN, b. Abt 1066/67 of Melun, Seine-et-Marne, Ile De France, France. v. WILLIAM CARPENTER, b. Abt 1066/68 of Melun, Seine-et-Marne, Ile De France, France; d. France. William Carpenter - The youngset son William the Carpenter's son, William the Carpenter (Guilaume de Charpentier) is sometimes confused with the orginal William the Carpenter. These two were very different. The older William was very supportive of the King of France and the son, William, was not. The son William had been raised mostly in Normandy as a hostage. It was common practice to to hold a child of one of your leaders to help insure loyalty. Unlike the modern practices, the hostage then was well treated and fed. William the son was educated and trained to be a knight. Under this form of "adoption" he became quite loyal to William the Conqueor, King of England and Normandy. It is not suprising that the son William fought against the King of France. French history desrcibes the son William as a braggart and as a thief against the Royal Family in France. No one was safe from his treachery. When arrows pierced his breast and killed him, the French Royals and thier people shouted for joy! The area of France that had been under his control (as a loyal subject to the King of England) was now free. William the son had at least two male children. For safety they seemed to have moved to the present area of Du Nord (the north) of France which was then the Kingdom of Flanders. It is his line that the Du Nord Carpentiers descend from. Urison II - Lord of Melun Another son of William the Carpenter was named Urison. Urison inheritted the title of Lord of Melun (taking the title of Urison the second) and was loyal to the French Crown. He apparently either survived his older brothers or was the most loyal to continue the Lordship of Melun. His direct male line continued until 1856 and included many great and military and civil leaders of the French Crown. to be continued ...

This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------70F1885FAE9BEAF61EBE857E Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit --------------70F1885FAE9BEAF61EBE857E Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-ID: <37D5A716.90465D4B@home.com> Date: Tue, 07 Sep 1999 17:00:22 -0700 From: John Carpenter <jrcrin001@home.com> Organization: @Home Network X-Mailer: Mozilla 4.05 [en]C-AtHome0404 (Win95; U) MIME-Version: 1.0 To: "CARPENTER-L@rootsweb.com" <CARPENTER-L@rootsweb.com> CC: Chuck Carpenter <chuck@mlsphotos.com>, Bette Butcher Topp <toppline@cet.com>, Jerry Carpenter <jcarp@ccstrat.com>, John E Proctor <jpgeno3@juno.com>, "John L. Carpenter" <familysearcher@mailcity.com>, "Richard (Rich) W. Carpenter" <adoptahighway@home.com>, Tony Carpenter <chipps@chipps.screaming.net>, Terry Lee Carpenter <diluvius@flash.net> Subject: Part 3 of Tony Carpenter in the UK Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit This is Part 3 of the History of the Carpenter Family from Tony Carpenter in the UK. continued from part 2 ... Descendants of Josselin I DE Melun 1. JOSSELIN I DE1 MELUN was born Abt. 920 in of Melun, Seine-et-Marne, Ile De France, France, and died March 19, 998/99 in Ile De France, France. Child of JOSSELIN I DE MELUN is: 2. i. HERVE DE2 MELUN, b. of Melun, Seine-et-Marne, Ile De France, France; d. Ile De France, France. 2. HERVE DE2 MELUN (JOSSELIN I DE1) was born in of Melun, Seine-et-Marne, Ile De France, France, and died in Ile De France, France. He married VENDOME. Children of HERVE MELUN and VENDOME are: i. MANASSES DE3 MELUN, b. of Melun, Seine-et-Marne, Ile De France, France; d. Seine-et-Marne, Ile De France, France. 3. ii. URSION I DE MELUN, b. Abt. 995, of Melun, Seine-et-Marne, Ile De France, France; d. 1084, France. 3. URSION I DE3 MELUN (HERVE DE2, JOSSELIN I DE1) was born Abt. 995 in of Melun, Seine-et-Marne, Ile De France, France, and died 1084 in France. Children of URSION I DE MELUN are: i. AGNET DE4 MELUN, b. Abt. 1038, of Melun, Seine-et-Marne, Ile De France, France. 4. ii. WILLIAM "THE CARPENTER" DE MELUN, b. Abt. 1042, of Melun, Seine-et-Marne, Ile De France, France; d. Ile De France, France. 4. WILLIAM "THE CARPENTER" DE4 MELUN (URSION I DE3, HERVE DE2, JOSSELIN I DE1) was born Abt. 1042 in of Melun, Seine-et-Marne, Ile De France, France, and died in Ile De France, France. Children of WILLIAM "THE CARPENTER" DE MELUN are: 5. i. URISON II DE5 MELUN, b. of Melun, Seine-et-Marne, Ile De France, France. 6. ii. WILLIAM CARPENTER, b. of Melun, Seine-et-Marne, Ile De France, France; d. Ypres, West Vlaanderen, Flanders, France. iii. RAYNER CARPENTER, b. Abt. 1060, of Melun, Seine-et-Marne, Ile De France, France; d. of, Herefordshire, England. iv. STEPHEN CARPENTER, b. Abt. 1062, of Melun, Seine-et-Marne, Ile De France, France; d. of, Wiltshire, England. v. DURAND CARPENTER, b. Abt. 1064, of Melun, Seine-et-Marne, Ile De France, France; d. of, Dorsetshire, England. William The Carpenter What does history tell of our William? We know that he went on the Crusades, and William fought at the Battle of Hastings, 1066 and all that. First let us look the arms granted to William, they are described as a Pally of six, argent and gules, with three cross crosslets or. Others have traced these arms off and on from the 1100's to the church of Westbury on Trym 1443 placed there by "our" Bishop, John Carpenter. There are many Carpenter's crests and arms shown in records and these will be illustrated throughout this book. The first record of these which I have found are shown in a 13th century Spanish manuscript of a painting of a scene of the war between the Christians and the Muslims. It shows a banner of red with three cross crosslets. [see illustration] I believe this is a record of the third crusade, as the picture shows of six panels depicting a Meeting of King Richard with the Saladin, the famous Muslim leader, possibly when they agreed on a truce for three years in 1193. Modern heraldry has been defined as "true heraldry as a systematic use of hereditary devices centered on a shield". The earliest known decorated shield which fits this definition is dated 1127, on the occasion of the knighting of Geoffrey of Anjou by King Henry I. We know that heraldic arms were carried, as far back as 924, as means of identification in battle and banners were used for a marshaling point of the troops of knights under one commander. This is so in today's army, identification of one's own members of a platoon in a battle is essential. Heraldry was also used to identify families before the use of individual surnames were common. William de Melun the fighter BATTLE OF HASTINGS: On 20th October 1066, at about 10 to 11 o'clock in the morning, William the Conqueror and his forces commenced Battle against King Harold's English army. It is highly likely that this (our) William fought aged about 24 years under Robert De Beaumont who was in charge of the Norman Knights. We can only visualise that our Knight William was dressed as any good Norman Knight would be during that time period. He wore a helmet of metal with a protective nose piece. His main weapon was a lance (a long spear), he also carried a long sword. He was armoured and protected from the cuts and thrusts of his enemies by a leather jerkin, with chain mail from his neck to his knees. He rode into battle with a horse that was unprotected. The Bayeux tapestry, representing the battle, shows the favourite weapon of the English, the Battleaxe, being used in disabling the horses of the Norman knights. It is believed that, during the fighting, William's horse was crippled and he was forced to fight on foot. In the heat of the battle he could well have lost his sword and grabbed an enemies' Battleaxe, then in his desperate attempt to survive, began swinging with all his might. This type of unthinking fighting is sometimes called "Beserking." A Beserker fights any enemy until he is killed or exhausted. We do not know if, or how many times, he was wounded, but he survived the battle. His comrades rewarded his efforts with the title "le charpentier." His strength and ability with the English Battleaxe was associated with the great strength and precision of the carpenter's trade. So William the Knight of Melun became known as William the Carpenter. His descendants became known as of "The Carpenter" and later shortened to the surname of CARPENTER. . Of the names of the Norman Chieftains who survived the Battle we find "Melun" This form of Berserking happened to me when I was involved in a fight with my late brother. I was 14 years old and he was 24 and on leave from the army before the D-day landings of the Second World War. We had a disagreement and fought in the back yard for over two hours. I took a terrible beating but I would not, or could not, stop. When my mother came home and found us still fighting, she had to call in some others members of the family to part us. We both needed hospital treatment. Many years later my brother told me I was like a wild animal he could not get away from me he believed I would have killed him if I could. He said "you went berserk", his very words. While in this state you gain terrific strength and feel no pain. So what happened to our William the Carpenter after the battle of Hastings? As he had fought beside William "The Conqueror" he received his reward, as promised by the King, by the granting of land. The rules of feudalism dictated that the lords knights did not have provide him with military support outside the boundaries of his lands. William persuaded knights to cross the English Channel to fight on his behalf by promising to reward them well. He kept his promise to his knights after the Battle of Hastings by staking claim to all of England, then dividing out English land to his knights as payment for their military service. The list is as follows-: Alan of Brittany Robert of Mortain Hugh of Avranches William of Percy Gilbert de Gand Roger of Poitou William of Wareene Roger de Busli Willaim Peverel Ivo Tailebios Henry de Ferrers Roger de Montgomery Thorkill of Arden - Count of Melan Countess Judith Roger Bigod Richard of Clare Aubrey de Vere Then came the Bishops Archbishop of York Bishop of Durham Geoffrey, Bishop of Coutances Bishop of Winchester Odo, Bishop of Bayeux 33 Castles were built by William I, or with his sanction. A chronicler of the invasion described how a prefabricated castle was brought over by the Normans "Then the carpenters landed, who had great axes in their hands and planes and axes hung at their sides. They deliberated and looked for a good spot to place a castle. They had with them in the fleet three wooden castles from Normandy in pieces, ready for framing together, and they took the materials of one of these out of the ships, all shaped and bored to receive the pins that they had brought cut and ready in large barrels. Before evening, they had finished a fine fort on English ground". While it is hard to imagine that the castle described in the chronicle of the Battle of Hastings was as imposing as some more solid castles, it was part of a systematic strategy on William's part to maintain his control over England. It gave the invaders a base, a statement that they intended to stay. This was just the start, there were many imposing Norman castles [See illustration] built in England, not of wood but of local stone. Some remain to this day along with churches and religious houses. Once he had his knights in place William I turned to the Church, Replacing the Anglo Saxon bishops by his Norman kinsmen, he started by replacing Archbishop Aldred of York, who died in 1069. This practice carried on until 1103, the Bishop of Exeter was the last. The English Bishop of Worcester survived until 1095. Records show that William (Giulaume in French) the Carpenter was fighting with the Christians of France against the Moors at Toledo in 1084-1086, then aged about 42, and then again in the first crusade starting in late 1096. It was in 1084 the William became "Guilaume the 1st, Lord of Melun." William the Survivor "He who fights and runs away lives to fight another day" The Siege of Antioch, in Syria, took place about February 1098. William the Carpenter was taking part. There seemed to be no end to the siege, it wore interminably on, conditions worsened, and as the expectation and threat of another relieving army under the powerful Kerbogha, 'atabeg' of Mosul, increased, morale began to crack in certain quarters and divisions appeared amongst the Christian leaders. There were desertions, real and suspected, both before and after the battle of the Lake of Antioch. Among those to leave were Peter the Hermit (of all people) and William 'the Carpenter' They had deserted in the January and were found, captured and brought back by Tancred, Bohemond's nephew. It is said that the wretched William stood in Bohemond'd tent at first light, to have strip after strip torn off him by his commanding officer - "You wretched disgrace to the whole Frankish army -- you dishonourable blot on all the people of Gaul. You most loathsome of all men whom the earth has to bear" and so on. William had evidently deserted once before, on an expedition against the Moors in Spain, an incident of which he was now forcefully reminded by the outraged Bohemond." William the Carpenter later fought at the Battle of Lake Antioch and survived the religious Crusade. Records have been found indicating he was alive on 17 July 1100, when he was granted lands for his "efforts" during the First Crusade. Those lands were contested by claims he deserted. Yet is honour was still intact because on the debt owed about two years earlier. William the Carpenter was a co-leader of a force which rescued Bohemond and Tancred in the plains of Turkey when the were surrounded and facing annihilation by a superior force. William's force came smashing through the enemy's rear sending it in a panic. The Crusade would have ended if not for this gallant attack. Several records descibe William the Carpenter (GuillaumeI., of name, Viscount of Melun, was named, the Carpenter, because no weapon (opponents weapons that is) could be found that could resist the power his strikes. The heaviness of his (weapons) resulted in him being feared in combat. He was, of that time, one of the most "well build" people. It is not known where William the Carpenter died. We know he survived the fighting and returned to France. It is assumed he died about 1104/1109 in the Isle de France region. Land Rewards in England after Hastings It is important that we know what lands were given to William, Records show the King was generous. William de Melun and Thorkill of Arden are showing as being given Warwick. Who was Thorkill? Can we assume that he was an Anglo-Saxon Knight who fought on the King's side, or a Saxon Thane? Was William given Thorkill's land to oversee, as the forest of Arden in that period must have been very close to Warwick Castle which William occupied. What a delight it must have been to him, he had been born close to the forest of Fontainebleau, so this must have been like home from home. Who were Williams neighbours? To the West was Roger de Montgomery in Shrewsbury Castle, William Peveral and Countess Judith to the East, Northampton, and Henry de Ferrers to the North. What did this mean to William the Carpenter and his family? It made him a very rich man, and being close to the port of Bristol allowed him to trade. He needed to move his produce to other outlets and of course he knew the French markets, and must have had connections to trade. The area was famous for the quality of its wool. Bristol was as important a centre of commerce and trade as London, if not more so. They had everything at hand to succeed, the Romans had mined coal in the area, so there was a cheap supply of fuel needed for production of commodities. It is said that most of the citizens of Bristol were involved in soap making, used in the production of cloth. Wool, hides, fur, skins, iron, Mendip lead, fish, dairy products, live animals, woad, honey and cloth. All came to Bristol from the surrounding countryside, and of course all of these products were taxed so the city of Bristol had a constant source of revenue. There was a flourishing import trade too. All ships had a duty to pay of 6d, French wine was imported, duty on this was 1d a tun. The King's Royal Wine was imported through the port and stored at Bristol Castle. You can thus imagine William sailing up the Severn to his new home, seeing all this commercial bustle going on, eager to become part of the prosperity of the region. So our ancestor, about 1104 to 1109 AD, who gave the name Carpenter to our family from the French family passed on to the great battlefield in the sky. What had he been doing between fighting? It would seem he sp

Well, Grandpa Frank Isaac did leave Grandma for a "younger" woman.... and he WAS a traveling salesman... hmmmmm?????? :) :) :) :) MCC === Mary C. Carpenter Quaternary Studies Program "Where Death is Just the Beginning!" NAU Box 5644 Northern Arizona University Flagstaff, AZ 86011 Ph. (520) 523-1718 __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com

I know of a Thomas M. Carpenter who works at my university whose family is from Texas I believe. I will e-mail him and ask if it is o-k to post his e-mail address. Perhaps he will be able to add to the Southern Carpenter info. Mary > > I have a John C. Carpenter b SC 1810 , married > Elizabeth Sanford in Cobb > co GA...migrated west living first in Blount co AL , > then settling on > the frontier of TX , Palo Pinto co by 1860. __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com