I agree with Terrald (tknorr@home.com, Sun, 12 Sep 1999 12:39:18), that academic debate should be encouraged. As a professor myself (computer information systems rather than history), I have witnessed some very heated debates by those who hold differing views on an issue. Due to their strong beliefs in their own research findings, debaters sometimes slip into personal comments. They are human. The error lies in us collectively losing track of the debate. It seems to me that most of the personal comments posted here have been by those not directly involved in the debate. If one has material comments to add, he/she should join in the debate. However, attempts to defend someone else's honor only serve to escalate the personal comments. I, too, am offended by some recent comments. However, probably given my academic discipline, I am more annoyed by those who "forward" or "reply with history" to the list, thereby adding redundancy that requires more keystrokes than I prefer. That doesn't chase me off the list, though, as I can learn from all of you. Having typed all that, I have vilolated my own advice to stick to the exchange of viable information. So, now, back to the debate... As I understand it, there seems to be little, if any, disagreement about the English origins of the Rehoboth and Providence Carpenters. The disagreement lies in the origin of the English Carpenters. From what I have learned thus far, the origin either way appears to be from mainland Europe in the areas that are presently part of France. The Zimmerman line, again as I understand it, stems from the part of Europe that is now Switzerland. Those two areas are not too far apart geograhically that there might even be a common origin among all Carpenters, excepting those who became Carpenters because they were carpenters [note: lower case "c"]. Please take that previous paragraph as a question.

Hey Tony (or anyone!): Have you (or anyone you know of over there) researched general info about the ship Bevis? I've often wondered what may be known or knowable; type, size, owner, other voyages (other than the famous deposit of Carpenters on these American shores), whne/where built, final dispposition.... What do yo think? Does the Admiralty (or someone) have such records? Robin

----To Err is human to forgive is a gift from the heart You are forgiven

Sorry to all my American cousins. It would seem that my input from England has caused this site to become unmanageable. I cannot change history or my roots, or ignore them, so I have reluctantly decided to unsubscribe from this site to save you from any more controversial disputes. I wish the Professor well in his research to find, in his opinion, the true lines of your ancestors without including any one of them that was not involved in some bloody incident of the past, and of course that includes your own early American history. I will look forward to seeing his published results. If any of you want to correspond with me and my wife Gill in a friendly, personal way, please feel free. You have my e-mail address. Our best wishes to you all. Tony and Gill Carpenter.

Sorry you guys. I addressed my last message to the wrong send to.

Bruce and Terry, I thank you both for your kind words and concern. However, as I said I have been considering unsubscribing for quit awhile. You both have shared many words of wishom. Folks should be proud of their heritage, regardless if their ancestors where royality or horse theives or worse. They each make up who we are. Good and/or bad, who knows where which came from? Take Care. Respectfully, Roger A Cabin in the Woods - http://www.intrepid.net/~rchristo

Roger, I'm sorry I said something to offend you. I guess I'm a little dense. What was it I said that caused your reply? Carolyn

Kris, I think, from the responses I have received on several bits of my genealogy, that folks on the list will write if they can find some possible connection with their own information. If they see no connection whatever, they probably won't write. For instance, I live in Michigan, and I have a lot of distant Carpenter relatives in the state (whom I have never met) because my GGgrandfather, James Carpenter, left NY, went to IN, and then spent a bit of time in the Decatur/Lawrence area of SW MI before taking his family to MN. The eldest son of James, Francis Adelbert Carpenter, remained in Decatur, and his brother spent some time living in the Lawrence area. Frank had a large family, and I have quite a bit of that information. I don't see any connection, but if you would like the information, I will gladly share it with you. I suspect your folks took a more northerly route. Someone on one of these genealogy lists told me that this is like fishing. You put out the bait and wait. Maybe you get a strike. If not, put the bait back out there and see what happens. People come and, unfortunately, go on these lists, and the new person who reads your post today might just be that cousin with the magic information. Meantime, most of us, I think, keep an eye out for familiar names, and try to find the person who mentioned it so we can share. At least, I hope that's what is happening. If I see your folks, I'll let you know. Take care, George --- George R. Carpenter carpgl@ismi.net ---------- > grandfather: Hugh J. Carpenter (carpenter & WWI & II vet), married to Iona > Esther Perry > ggrandfather: Frank W. Carpenter (carpenter), married to S. Anna Shappell. > Children: Hugh J. only. > gggrandfather: Cecil C. Carpenter (farmer & carpenter) married to Carolyn > Vannorthwick (children below) > ggggrandfather: Daniel R. Carpenter (farmer), born around 1811-1813 in New > York. Married to Sally A. Wilson, born November, 1917, New York. Died March > 6, 1863, Michigan. (Children below) > > Daniel is where I am stuck. Daniel and Sally had the following children: > Otis W. Carpenter (teacher & farmer & Civil War Vet), born around 1840, > Oakland Co., Michigan. Died December 6, 1864. Never married. Died of > disease in the Civil War. > William H. Carpenter (minister & farmer), born around 1842 in Eaton Co., > Michigan. Married to Maryette Vannorthwick on March 19, 1867. Children, > Carrie or Cassie? > Daniel R. Carpenter, born around 1843, died Jan. 21, 1851. Age 8. > Cecil C. Carpenter, born 1845, died 1936. Married Carolyn Vannorthwick > Feb. 5, 1869. Children were: Frank W. Carpenter, Guy E. Carpenter and > Claire C. Carpenter. > Diana R. Carpenter, Born Oct. 6, 1848, Died December 2, 1868. Never > married. > > Daniel R. and Sally A. came to Michigan from New York sometime between > 1830 and 1840. First to Oakland County where Otis was born and then to Eaton > County where they settled on a farm in Delta Township and gave birth to and > raised the rest of their children. All of these Carpenters are buried in > Delta Center Cemetery, Delta Township, Eaton County, Michigan. I have > obtained the above and other information from cemetery records, birth and > death records, census records, marriage records, land records and military > records. I located a Daniel R. Carpenter on the 1830 New York census in > Chautauqua County. He is gone from the New York cenus of 1840 and appears > next on the 1840 cenus for Eaton County, Michigan. Otis was born around 1840 > in Oakland Co., Michigan so I know from this that Daniel R. and Sally A. came > from New York to Oakland Co., MI first and then to Eaton County, Michigan. > > If anyone on this list has a connection to any of the above Carpenters, > wives, or children, I would appreciate hearing from you. I don't know who > Daniel's parents or siblings, if any, were or where they came from. Maybe > you have a Carpenter relative who hails from or is connected in some way to > Chautauqua Co., N.Y., (if indeed that's my Daniel R. on the 1830 Census for > Chautauqua Co., New York as I could be wrong on this). In any event if and > when I ever get back across the ocean I will let you know if there are any > "butchers", bakers or candlestick makers in my family line. > > Hoping to hear from you or see your family on-line. > Kris >

To the list subscribers: Here is a little sidelight to genealogy research that I would like to share. It is not so interesting for many of you since I suppose there is noone on the list who has the common ancestor with me of Nicholas Carpenter (#8093, Carpenter Memorial)b. abt 1798 in North Waterboro Maine. Carpenter Memorial line as follows: Nicholas(8093)-John(1765)-Nicholas(708)-Thomas(205)-Oliver(54)-Abiah(21)-William (16)(Rehoboth). But it is a story of how one can convert limited family handdown stories to the likely lineage. Amos B. Carpenter's book states that Nicholas Carpenter(#8093, Carpenter Memorial) married Dinah ( I say it is Sally by Canada census records.) King on March 20, 1821. Says in this book that he left immediately for St. Sylvestre Canada. Well folks, I am here in St. Sylvestre region for the second time to expand on the life of Nicholas and his family. I already told a little of this to George Carpenter on our list, but to reiterate. Nicholas had 7 sons and one daughter here in Canada. His third child, second son was ( I think by family lore) my great great grandfather John, born March 18, 1825. John ran away from home at age 14 with a horse and $5. Well, do you think he was sent on his way with good wishes in 1839 in q dirt poor family? I don't think so! three of the sons disappear from all mention in docs I copied from the Archives in Quebec. Wonder why that was? They were documented in Amos B.'s book and appeared in the 1831 census (not by name as you know in 1830) but the ages and sexes correspond exactly with 5 children Nicholas had at the time. Since the 1840 census is not archived, (pity) I can't see the most critical year. In 1850, there are only 3 sons in the census and all of them are grown. This time I am after newspaper clippings of the death of Nicholas (fractured skull Dec 18, 1861 hmmmm!) or any other docs which expand on the life of the family. since they were listed in the census as living in a shanty (compared to others who had a "frame" house) and they were living there for almost 30 years! In a history of the region, it lists Nicholas as holding 180 acres and it says 1827, but Amos B . says 1821 they left for Canada. so another mystery is what happened in the 6 years in between. Documents I have copied from the Notary Public records in Quebec suggest that this family might have been somewhat dysfunctional, as the widow Sally was abandoned by the one son that was legally supposed to care for her. By taking him to court, she succeeded in returning to the home and being cared for until her death in 1875. The remaining siblings moved back to the US sometime after 1861 -1882 according to the census and they moved to Indiana or Michigan (Carpenter Memorial). I would like to contact any descendants of the other children of Nicholas (#8093) to see what family pix, docs or hand downs exist. Well, the summary here is that from a birthdate, the place as Canada, and family stories, I was able to tie down the parents Nicholas and Sally, of my g-g gfather John (#8100). Although I don't have primary docs proof, I am hoping to uncover this in Maine next few weeks. My g-g-gfather, NEVER told the family who his parents were, their names, or the exact place of his birth. I suspect strongly that he was afraid of being prosecuted for the theft of a horse and money. It is only by luck that only ONE John Carpenter was born in Canada in 1825. Not strong evidence, but I am looking for more. What should I be looking for? I have the probated document at death called a "cession and abandon" which is a will that the courts develop from the heirs wishes, I guess. It lists some of the children on the doc, but since my g-g gfather ran away and several other sons left, there are only three sons and a daughter listed on the doc. A couple of days here and then I am off for North Waterboro Maine, and Somersworth NH to get more stories besides lineage about this line. If anyone who is subscribing has a common ancestor in the Nicholas Carpenter born 1739 prob. Somersworth NH (#708 in the Carpenter Memorial, by A.B. Carpenter), and would like me to research info on him, as he was the first settler of North Waterboro Maine, just mail to me directly. I am checking mail daily. The children of Nicholas #708 were 14. 10 by Mary James and 4 by Hannah Hill. Since they were all born in North Waterboro and settled near him (except Benjamin). Hope this is helpful to someone. It is a little different than the usual postings asking or telling about lineage dates and names. cheers -- ************************************************** | Jerry Carpenter, Managing Principal | | CCS - Continental Consulting Strategies | | Phone/Fax 253-891-3090 | | mailto:jcarp@ccstrat.com | | http://www.ccstrat.com | **************************************************

The problem with having other lists is the same as for many good ideas, i.e., finding someone to take it over and get it done. Any volunteers? George R. ---------- > From: Roger E Christophel <rchristo@intrepid.net> > To: CARPENTER-L@rootsweb.com > Subject: Splitin' the Carpenter List > Date: Saturday, September 11, 1999 9:53 AM > > > > > Here is a suggestion; should be create two separate Carpenter lists--one > > for American ancestry only, the other for arguments about English, French, > > Flemish and earlier debates. It seems most of the bad stuff is over highly > > dubious feel-good heritage from the time of the crusades...which is > > interesting history (and even interesting debate, back when it was civil), > > but for most of us, not really what we're here for. > > Being your basic lurker on this list, I very strongly agree with Robin's > idea. I would even take it another step and suggest another list for the > Carpenter's that come from the Zimmerman line (like me... I think). There > is such an over whelming amount of information on the Carpenters coming > from the Northern part of the country that the list is almost useless to > folks from the Zimmerman line, not to mention the discussions taking place > about who did what in Europe. > > I have been considering leaving the list for some time now and while I have > been sitting here writing this I have made up my mind. If and when other > Carpenter lists are created please broadcast an announcement. > > Respectfully > > Roger > A Cabin in the Woods - http://www.intrepid.net/~rchristo >

Linda - Thank you for checking out my Daniel for me in the Carpenter Memorial. I am in Michigan and near the State Library. I am also in most of the County Courthouses located in Ingham, Eaton, Clinton, Shiawassee, and other nearby counties quite often as I practice law in this area. If there's a look up I can do for you of any relatives from this area let me know. Maybe we can begin to promote a new kind of helpfulness. Kris

I suggest that it remain one list. I belong to so very many as I am sure most of you do. Just another thing to deal with. The Zimmerman/Carpenter, of which my husband is one, should just go ahead and post whatever they have and talk with one another one on one when they think they are related. There is nothing preventing that. I would certainly like to know the parentage of Mathias Zimmerman/Carpenter who went to NC and, on the way, he changed the name of the anglicized version: Carpenter. Is anyone on here related to him? I have posted prior to this but will do it again soon. I feel that a good many are just waiting for the next round! Audrey Annable Franklin Roger E Christophel wrote: > > Here is a suggestion; should be create two separate Carpenter lists--one > > for American ancestry only, the other for arguments about English, French, > > Flemish and earlier debates. It seems most of the bad stuff is over highly > > dubious feel-good heritage from the time of the crusades...which is > > interesting history (and even interesting debate, back when it was civil), > > but for most of us, not really what we're here for. > > Being your basic lurker on this list, I very strongly agree with Robin's > idea. I would even take it another step and suggest another list for the > Carpenter's that come from the Zimmerman line (like me... I think). There > is such an over whelming amount of information on the Carpenters coming > from the Northern part of the country that the list is almost useless to > folks from the Zimmerman line, not to mention the discussions taking place > about who did what in Europe. > > I have been considering leaving the list for some time now and while I have > been sitting here writing this I have made up my mind. If and when other > Carpenter lists are created please broadcast an announcement. > > Respectfully > > Roger > A Cabin in the Woods - http://www.intrepid.net/~rchristo

I again say : Keep your remarks directly to the person involved and not to this list. You, and other like you, are trying to keep this going. There is no "rage" in this message from Bruce. Audrey Annable Franklin " John L. Carpenter" wrote: > -----I think You need to find a outlet for your rage controll and keep it > off the list if you please . Sooner or later people on high horses fall > > >Three cheers for C.A.Carpenter. Let > >us get the documents on the web. Find > >them and scan them or copy them. > >What about that old Harry Rodgers/Raymond > >Carpenter stuff. Put it on the net. Get with > >it Carpenters, think, react, discuss. Give 1880 Aunt > >Nellie in Nebraska a > >rest. > >BC > > > >

I wish to express my apologies here to the Zimmerman-Carpenters for any lessening of pleasure they might have enjoyed from the forum. I particularly regret that some have left the forum. It is I think a difficult situation, at best, when two families are cramped and camped in the same narrow space. The Zimmerman-Carpenters have shown signs of fatigue syndrome with ancient English Carpenter history, and that is to be expected. The Zimmerman-Carpenter is a great family in the history of America, a family that paid the highest possible compliment to my own New England family by sharing its name. Most sincerely, Bruce E. Carpenter

One of the first great moments of early English industrial development was the introduction of mechanized fulling mills for wool in the 1200s. Previously this process was done by foot! Carus-Wilson in her MEDIEVAL MERCHANT VENTURERS has a chapter dedicated to this real industrial Revolution and a member of the Carpenter family gets a good share of the glory. Let me quote: “The fulling mills on the lay estates for which the early records survive are, not unnaturally, those of the king himself. One of the first royal mills was near Marlborough, at Elcot. This was in existence in the reign of John and was rebuilt by the king,s orders in 1237. The task was intrusted to William de Pretsch and Vincent Carpentar’, who had workmen under them, and cost altogether L. 4, 17s, 4d. Most of the money was spent on felling and carting timber from Savernake forest; the rest on remaking the mill-pond, the weir, the mill-wheel and its enclosure, the mill-race and also the “flagella et baterella’ – probably the hammers for beating the cloth”. Vincent and Peter are what should be referred to as early engineers, experts in the repair, and no doubt the building, of wool processing mills. The Carpentar version of the surname is a giveaway of the foreign origins of Vincent. His appearance in on the English scene in the early 1200s agrees nicely with the other Flemish Carpenters, who arrived at that time to supply wool for the home market. It is interesting to see them on this level also. Fulling mills have an important chapter in later Carpenter history with the establishment of the Carpenter fulling mills on the Blackstone River in New England. The Blackstone River mills have their place in the history of the early industrialization of America. Think wool, think Carpenter! Bruce E. Carpenter

I agree with all of you that say that you are wearing your delete key out, but I must say that IT IS NOT because of Bruce or John it is the rest of you going on and on. I can't say that I have always agreed with every posting, but I am and adult and can handle situations without my mothers help. I also have to say thanks to Audrey for pointing out the fact that for the last two days the men (man) in question hasn't mentioned anything, but genealogy. Yet you all continue the argument!! Bruce and John I love the public sharpening of knives and I say keep a good spirit and continue as usual!! Terrald

Please remove me from this list.

unsubscribe

I'm tired of the bull!

I do not like the bikering and fighting and name calling either. I was sucked in for a minute and wrote some angry responses and made some people mad. For that I am sorry. In any event I would not like to see the list split. Why? Because I can only go back to my ggggrandfather. There I am stuck. If the list were split I would have to subscribe to both because my ggggrandfather could be related to one of the two Carpenter branches most discussed on this list or someone else. I have posted what I know about my Carpenter family a couple times in the past and John has been the only one to take the time to write me back with possibilities. For that I am grateful. I found no connection in what he sent me but he took the time to e-mail me a great deal of information which I have kept just in case. That's what I think this list should be about . I appreciate it whenever anyone on this list posts what they know about their line for as far back as they have been able to go because I look with interest and I compare mine with theirs. I copy these postings in hopes that one day I may find a connection. I am not a sophisticated genealogist. I am just a person who loves my family and is sincerely interested in my roots. I can and do use my delete key. I don't know if any of my ancesters that predate my ggggrandfather and mother were town clerks in England, butchers in the Crusades, or what they were. Whatever they were they are not now nor am I. In the end I am not going to have to answer for anyone's behavior but my own. Here is what I know about my family. grandfather: Hugh J. Carpenter (carpenter & WWI & II vet), married to Iona Esther Perry ggrandfather: Frank W. Carpenter (carpenter), married to S. Anna Shappell. Children: Hugh J. only. gggrandfather: Cecil C. Carpenter (farmer & carpenter) married to Carolyn Vannorthwick (children below) ggggrandfather: Daniel R. Carpenter (farmer), born around 1811-1813 in New York. Married to Sally A. Wilson, born November, 1917, New York. Died March 6, 1863, Michigan. (Children below) Daniel is where I am stuck. Daniel and Sally had the following children: Otis W. Carpenter (teacher & farmer & Civil War Vet), born around 1840, Oakland Co., Michigan. Died December 6, 1864. Never married. Died of disease in the Civil War. William H. Carpenter (minister & farmer), born around 1842 in Eaton Co., Michigan. Married to Maryette Vannorthwick on March 19, 1867. Children, Carrie or Cassie? Daniel R. Carpenter, born around 1843, died Jan. 21, 1851. Age 8. Cecil C. Carpenter, born 1845, died 1936. Married Carolyn Vannorthwick Feb. 5, 1869. Children were: Frank W. Carpenter, Guy E. Carpenter and Claire C. Carpenter. Diana R. Carpenter, Born Oct. 6, 1848, Died December 2, 1868. Never married. Daniel R. and Sally A. came to Michigan from New York sometime between 1830 and 1840. First to Oakland County where Otis was born and then to Eaton County where they settled on a farm in Delta Township and gave birth to and raised the rest of their children. All of these Carpenters are buried in Delta Center Cemetery, Delta Township, Eaton County, Michigan. I have obtained the above and other information from cemetery records, birth and death records, census records, marriage records, land records and military records. I located a Daniel R. Carpenter on the 1830 New York census in Chautauqua County. He is gone from the New York cenus of 1840 and appears next on the 1840 cenus for Eaton County, Michigan. Otis was born around 1840 in Oakland Co., Michigan so I know from this that Daniel R. and Sally A. came from New York to Oakland Co., MI first and then to Eaton County, Michigan. If anyone on this list has a connection to any of the above Carpenters, wives, or children, I would appreciate hearing from you. I don't know who Daniel's parents or siblings, if any, were or where they came from. Maybe you have a Carpenter relative who hails from or is connected in some way to Chautauqua Co., N.Y., (if indeed that's my Daniel R. on the 1830 Census for Chautauqua Co., New York as I could be wrong on this). In any event if and when I ever get back across the ocean I will let you know if there are any "butchers", bakers or candlestick makers in my family line. Hoping to hear from you or see your family on-line. Kris