----Our Ancestor is on Panel 68 Wm carpenter of England http://www.wallofhonor.com/queryframebottom.asp

John: It might have very much the case for Carpenter history from the early the early 1200s to well into the 1300s that a great many Flemish Carpentiers came to settle in England. If we continue to conceptualize in terms a small nuclear group of Carpentier trader-settlers, like the Carpenter group that went to Massachusetts, we may have an utterly erroneous picture of what truly happened. I say this because too much evidence has passed my eyes that points to maintained contact with the original family groups and places. For a hundred and fifty years all manner of relatives must have come and gone. There must have been Carpentiers among the traders who were known too reside in England only part of the year. As late as 1557 the Flemish Carpentiers were still trading in England. Note this 3 and 4 Philip and Mary, Part VIII, May 13,1557 account of a dastardly crime: “Whereas it appears by the tenor of a record of George Crofte, one of the coroners of the town and liberty of Dartmouth, co. Devon, 22 March, 3 and 4 Ph. and Mary, that it was presented by 12 jurors upon the view of the body of Guy Carpenter then lying dead in the house of Thomas Mounsey at Dartmouth that it befel on 21 March between 10 and 11 o’clock at night that a foreign (extraneus) man called Skoenne Mychell, captain of ‘a barke’ of Flusshyn in Flanders and the said Carpenter, also of Flanders, were in the said house and Carpenter made an assault upon Mychell with knives and in self-defense Mychell drew his dagger (pugionem) and with it (price 12d.) struck Carpenter.” This I am sure was all over a beautiful women, and Guy certainly did not strike the first blow. We cannot say the Flemish Carpentiers were alive and well in England in 1557, but the fact of their continued trade activity, is a certainty. As I mentioned earlier, titled Carpentiers were sought after for marriages as late as mid 1400s. Bruce Carpenter

John: I suspect, for the future destiny of the Holme manor, was the marriage of John of Gaunt and Blanche in 1359. This date was surely a moment of destiny for the Carpenters of the day. John of Gaunt then became the Duke of Lancaster and thereby possessor of all Blanche’s Lancastrian lands, including our manor, the Holme. Allied to the newly minted Duke of Lancaster was the Warwickshire Beauchamp line that ended with Henry. The Beauchamp arms, and the arms of Bishop John Carpenter of Worcester, were nearly identical. Henry Beauchamp became the legal guardian of King Henry VI and John Carpenter his (the king’s) household chaplain. The London merchants with Town Clerk John Carpenter lent Henry VI his money. Woven into all of this was the Beauchamp wealth, much probably wool derived and processed into cloth by possible Carpenter connected cloth makers. John becomes Bishop just two years before the death of Henry Beauchamp, which was the beginning of the reversal of fortunes of the Lancasters with the marriage of Henry Beauchamp’s sole hier Anne to the Nevilles who opposed Henry VI. I understand that one of Annes daughters married a Carpentier from Flanders. Was this an international trade manuver? One more factor in this was John of Gaunt’s own mother Queen Phillipa of Hainaut in Flanders. Surely part of John of Gaunt’s baggage were all manner of economic connections ties to Flanders, as well as the well known political ones. Next week I will be able to present the evidence of massive Flemish Carpenter involvement in the Low Country cloth market, chiefly in Douai, right in the traditional Nord heartland of the continental Carpenters. Sincerely, Bruce Carpenter

Dear Robin, Good Ops! This error is new to me too. I will have to see what I can find out. The Carpenter Memorial on the data base didn't list an error or duplication, so I need to figure that one out also. Thanks for the notice! John R. Carpenter La Mesa, CA Robin Carpenter wrote: > > I just found a new (to me) error in Carpenter Memorial. I think I've > pieced together part of a resolution, but am hoping someone out there has > the straight scoop to confirm it. All of the following pertains to Orange > County NY: > > On p. 162 we have Jesse Carpenter #340, of Joseph 91, Samuel 27, John 17. > Jesse is alleged to have 4 kids; Joseph, Jesse, Clarissa, Hannah. > On p. 283 we find Jesse Carpenter #983, of Colvin 336, Joseph 91, Samuel > 27, John 17. This Jesse is ALSO alleged to have 4 kids...named Clara, > Joseph, Jesse, Hannah. > One might be tempted to think Jesse 983 named his kids after his uncle > Jesse 340. Alas, the coincidence becomes too too great, when we note that > both sets of offspring seem to be born on the same dates and married to the > same people. > > Separately, Coleman's "Early Records of the First Presbyterian Church At > Goshen New York" cites (at p. 116) the 1791 baptism of Joseph, Clarissa, > Jesse, and Hannah--all offspring of Jesse Carpenter. The 1791 date seems to > confirm Jesse the father of these four kids as being Jesse #340 (b. about > 1740, p. 88). The other Jesse (983) is said on p. 161 to be born 1778--a > contemporary, not a parent, of the four baptees. If so, that leaves open > who might be the spouse and children of Jesse 983. (Any info on this?) > OK; Considering the Jesse #340 info, we then note that ABC has BOTH > Clarissa and Hannah marrying a David Roe of Chester NY (with an "as > reported" qualifier w/r Hannah). Does anyone have independent info on > either of these young ladies' marriages? > Robin C.

Dear Pat, I believe you are right. You can add also the difference between Catholic and Protestant intepretations. Recently I sent a brief history of the Dilwyn Church to the forum. In it was one line that supports your statement. DILWIN CHURCH HISTORY: In 1303 on a dispute as to the Vicar's salary, Wm. De Kingscote, Canon, and Wm. De Caple, Official of the Hereford Commissioners --- Priory lay Brother John of Clehonger, the Vicar in person. This shows a "lay person" is used. It is probable that keeping a real "priest" in the Dilwyn Church or keeping attendance was likely in the mid 1400s. Thus William may have become, by default, the "perpeptual vicar" to take care of the Church in Dilwyn. John R. Carpenter La Mesa, CA Pat Hobson wrote: > > Dear Folks, > While we are entertaining some of the more intriguing possibilities posed by > Bruce Carpenter's recent postings, let's be careful not to take terms with > both modern and medieval usages and assume they are the same things. Here's > what I remember from college, seminary, and reformation history about the > late medieval period: > 1. English clergy were poorly trained, or sometimes not trained at all. > They were poorly paid on the local level, so much so that they frequently > had more than one parish or "living" to make ends meet. They frequently did > not live in their parishes. A "succesful" cleric might well be > sub-contracting his work, as it were, to other clergy. Someone might be > vicar of St. Mary's here and St. David's there, and never personally show up > to do the services. This did not generally endear them to their > parishioners. The laity, however, had very little to do with who was > appointed as their parish clergy: the Bishops (in close consultation with > the large landowners who generally funded the clerics) appointed priests. > 2. There were "minor orders" in addition to the priesthood. One could be > "ordained" to be a lector, bellringer, deacon, sub-deacon, doorkeeper & > exorcist and never go on to the priesthood. Having these minor orders did > put a man under the protection of the church courts, however. > 3. The only clergy more disliked than the Bishops and the parish clergy > were the monastics, who had title to almost one-third of the arable land in > England. The merchant class was happy to cooperate in the dissolution of > the monasteries under Henry VIII when it meant they had more grazing land > and fewer church taxes. > 4. The great disparity between the poorly trained, poorly paid local > clergy, and the Bishops (who were government functionaries and very well off > indeed) created a very fertile atmosphere for the reformation, English > style. Th reformation in England was punctuated by anti-clericalism, > land-grabbing, the flowering of the liturgy in English, and a bewildering > series of Acts of Parliament. In Germany, the reformation started with the > debate of scholarly theses; in France with the eating of sausages on Ash > Wednesday, and in England with legislation! > 5. I can say with great assurance that in modern usage, a vicar is a priest > in charge of a parish that is not financially self-sufficient. In these > churches, the Bishop is considered to be the Rector and appoints a Vicar to > serve for him (or her). A Rector is a priest in charge of a financially > self- sufficient parish and has certain canonical rights associated with > that. For example, a Vicar serves at the Bishop's pleasure and can be > employed one day and gone the next. A Rector cannot be dismissed without > certain procedures and constraints, even by the Bishop. So....it's better > to be rector. This point applies to the Episcopal Church in the U.S. at this > time: the Anglican Church in England has different fine print, and the fine > print matters a great deal. > > Pat Hobson > > ______________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

Dear Bruce, In England alliances often changed with the wind. While some were stable many were not. The Earl of Lancaster did hold major land in Hertfordshire in that time period. So the data may not be lost or forgot, on this subject, I present it to the Carpenter Roots Web Folks for their use. Regarding Wills: All I have are hand written excerpts from other researchers. The actual will of William of Homme has not been identified. Two of his sons, Richard and William have wills found believed to be theirs. See below. I asked Bette Butcher Topp to put in her Carpenter Chronicles a listing or index of Carpenter Wills found (by a researcher I paid to do so) in the Record Office in Throwbridge. The data indicate where each of the wills are located. I have not had the money or time to go there to research all of them. I have only about 14 identified from other researchers. Maybe Bette will put these in her next journal? The will of Rev. Richard Carpenter mentions sons Robert & Peter. SEE: Also: (WN & Q) Wiltshire Notes and Queries, Pages 256-258 and 293 which lists The Wilshire Wills proved in the Prerogative Court of Canterbury (1383-1558): "1503 Carpenter, Rychard, D.C.L. and priest, Remmesbury (= Ramsbury, Wilts) (Wilts?) Mixbury, Oxford. (Oxfordshire) 25 Blamyr." 25 Blamyr is the record book the above is found at the Record Office at Throwbridge. The possible will of William Carpenter son of William of Homme: The Bourne Valley Historical, Record and Conservation Society has in its archives nine hand written copies of wills in the period dated 1545 to 1661. At least five of these make a connection with the village of Newton Toney. Per Letter & copies provided by Mr. Keith P. Norris, Hon. Archivist of the above Society (53 Bouverie Avenue / Salisbury / Wiltshire SP2 8DU / England) on 17 Feb. 1997. The following will may be for this William Carpenter. "J45 - Record Book No.9 (Arch Sarum 1-81. - Registers of the Archdeacon of Salisbury Cathedral) 1547 William Carpenter, Charlton, Downton. 11 July 1547 (Dated). Maud my wife. Robert my youngest son. O'seers:- John Estman, Vincent Cocke. Witness: Robert Poope." Downton is south of Salisbury. I hope this helps. John R. Carpenter La Mesa, CA Bruce E. Carpenter wrote: > > John: > Here you go. It took me a lot of trouble > to find this so please do not forget it exists. > BC > > It appears Homme at Dilwyn in Herefortshire was a manor > with some history. In the time of Edward lll (early 1300s) the > following reference appears in the Calendar of Inquisitions > Post Mortem for Herefordshire. I quote, "Homme by > Dylewe (Dilwyn). 4a. land held of (Robert) Broun by > service of 1d. yearly." > It goes on to say, "He died in parts beyond the sea, viz in > Brittany." This is to suggest that Mr. Broun was a knight > in service during the foreign wars of the 1300s. The next paragraph > states that, 'parcel of the manor of Dylewe, which is held > of the of the Earl of Lancaster." The Earl of Lancaster conducted > the wars in France for Henry lll. > Thus we can conclude that the Homme in Dilwyn was > Lancastrian land, parceled out in return for knight > service in the 1300s. Keep in mind that the Carpenters > in subsequent years were firmly within the Lancastrian > camp and household. > Sincerely, > Bruce E. Carpenter Subject: Re: Pembryg Again Date: Wed, 6 Oct 1999 22:10:51 -0700 From: "Bruce E. Carpenter" <carp@whidbey.com> To: "John Carpenter" <jrcrin001@home.com> John: Phantom William of Homme means I have heard much about him but have never seen a reference to him in English historical records.I have heard about the wills,but I have never seen a copy. Do you have a zerox copy to send me? The William and John I found were the closest to anything like a Holme William and his brother John that I have seen. This William might be him, right? I once sent you a transcription of a document which proved that Holme was already a separate manor under Lancastrian control in the 1300s. Whould you like another copy? BC

Dear Folks, Bette Butcher Topp has another two volumes of Carpenter Chronicles out. Volume 32 and 33 are available for $6.00 dollars (US) a piece. Washington State residents need to add 8% sales tax. Contact her at: Bette Butcher Topp 1304 W. Cliffwood Court Spokane, WA 99218-2917 (509) 467-2299 E-MAIL: toppline@cet.com I enjoy her Carpenter Chronicles - Even though she did't include any of my work in the last two volumes. :( Check them out! :) John R. Carpenter La Mesa, CA

Dear Folks, I fond the following quote that was sent to me by Tony Carpenter thought provoking. "What task could be more agreeable than to tell of the benefits conferred on us by our ancestors, so that you may get to know the achievements of those from whom you have received both the basis of your beliefs, and the inspiration to conduct your life properly?" This quotation is ascribed to William of Malmesbury around A.D. 1125, William's father was Norman and his mother was Anglo Saxon. From: The introduction of "Domesday, A Search for the Roots of England" by Michael Wood. John R. Carpenter La Mesa, CA

Previously mentioned was a document in which Richard Carpenter had an interest in property “sometime of Gilbert Carpenter” dated 1380. I had to that point failed to place Gilbert in London itself. Today I wish to rectify that with a February 28 Close Rolls disposition. In it, Gilbert’s London property is used as a reference point. In part: “…….and from three small houses situate without Crepulgate near the bar by a house sometime of Gilbert le Carpenter towards the south…” It is impossible to say if Gilbert lived in the house or merely owned it. The same case is reviewed in the Calendar of Inquisitions, but there with the mention that Gilbert’s property passed into the hands of a John Seman, who appears elsewhere as a “currier” or someone in the leather trade. Indeed the “without Crepulgate” area was the home of the tanners and others working with leather. The important point is the establishment of Gilbert le Carpenter in the city of London, with the other London Carpenters, in the 1300s. Sincerely, Bruce E. Carpenter

A lovely quote, John. I also ponder the simple twists of fate which occurred for lifetimes upon lifetimes which brought me to this world. Actions occurred and decisions were made, obstacles presented, problems solved, tears shed in joy and sorrow, medical science intervened or did not and this mixture of blood flows through my veins. My ancestors are not phantoms; they are my life's blood. Thanks to everyone for sharing all of your information and love. The 5th great granddaughter of Thomas Westcott and Chloe Carpenter, Barb

Dear John, Oxford records indicate a long standing of Carpenters starting in the early 1400s. Unfortunately linking them to specific Carpenters is diffcult unless they willed something. William of Homme gave money and listed several of his sons (who probably attended there also). John R. Carpenter La Mesa, CA John F. Chandler wrote: > > It occurs to me that William the vicar may have attended a university > before entering his clerical career. Has anyone checked the alumni > rosters of Cambridge and Oxford for Carpenters in the 1400's? > > John Chandler

Dear Bruce, Documents are often hard to find or interpret. It is easy to say that A document seems related to B document. When in doubt I suggest hedging the words as "believed to be" "or may be" or a similar such phrase. I find John Chandler's advise very helpful. Bruce Carpenter wrote: > William of Homme, like other names in early Carpenter family > history, are essentially phantoms i.e. just names with no > apparent reality to attach to them. My enthusiam for > the Pembryg document was that it was actual historical evidence that > recorded Carpenters, in at least the neighborhood > of Dilwyn, in early 1500s. I have never found one bit > of concrete evidence that actually places any Carpenter > near Dilwyn in any of the hundreds of texts that > I have looked through. The Pembryg document tells > us that a William Carpenter (with a brother John) "did his clerical thing" > in a church a horse trot from Dilwyn. This I thought, and still think, > is reason enough to break out the sherry. Any data that helps with the puzzle is very welcome to Carpenter researchers. While I abstain from spirits {:) finding a vital clue can be a reason to celebrate. While William of Homme may be a "essentially phantoms" to you, I believe he was a real person. The following information may help other researchers regarding the "Founder" of many important Carpenter lines. William of Homme (b. abt 1440 d. abt 1520) resided in a part of Dilwyne in Herefordshire per earlier nineteen century researchers. Part of my notes on William indicate: On page 33 of the Carpenter Memorial is: "The statements of (William) Playfair Burke (of Royal Pedigrees, etc) and Davis and Owen (Peerages) in regard to the decent of the Tyconnel carpenters from John 1303, and also William of Homme, establishes the fact that the Homme Carpenters are all descended from John of 1303. William Carpenter, (No. 8) the great grandson of William of Homme, was the direct ancestor of the Tyconnel Carpenters: and his third son William was the progenitor of the Rehoboth branch of the family." While Amos Carpenter dropped one (1) generation in his pedigree further research by Raymond George Carpenter and Harry Rodgers (who found the important wills) have confirmed the lineage. Oxford University records indicate that William of Hereford had sons James, John, William and Richard. Holm is a saxon word signifying "a woody situation." !The property at Homme or Holm stayed in the family until 1787, when it passed to the Deverux and Peploe Family. Per Robinson's "Mansions and Manors of Herefordshire." In 1873 it was the residence of Lady Frances Vernon Harcourt, who was the daughter of John Lothrop Motley, the distinguished American Historian. Homme or Holm or Holme is in the Parish of Dilwyn, Herefordshire. The Carpenters have possesed conciderable estate since they were officailly "seated" there as early as 1330. The Carpenter home was sold in 1787 to thePeploe family to help settle tax issues. Reportedly the actual home was destroyed by fire a century ago. The massive forests in Homme were leveled and all that remains now are small park like areas. I found the following data on the internet which gives a brief history of the Dilwyn Parish. ECCLESIASTICAL HISTORY OF DILWYN PARISH In 1207 Matthew de Gamoges was Lord of Dilwin, and joined forces with those of William de Braos, Lord of Brecknock in his resistance to King John. The confederates, however, were defeated, and the estates of the Lord of Dilwin seized by the King, and henceforth Dilwin became a Royal Manor. In 1169, a Godfrey de Gamoges held lands under Hugh de Lacy in these parts, and he may have been the immediate predecessor to Matthew in the Lordship of Dilwin. It seems that King John, when Earl of Moreton, held lands in Dilwin. These and the lands acquired by the forfeiture of those of Matthew de Gamoges were granted by the King to William Fitzwarrynne, and King Henry III confirmed the grant. The Honour was held next in succession by Almaric de St. Armand, Godfrey and Walter de Burgh, Robert Wathamstide, Peter de Genevrey [or Geneville]. The Honour of Dilwin contained two hides and a half, and is described in the original deed as a "Royal Honour". We now arrive at the most illustrious of the Lords of Dilwin, in the person of Prince Edmund, Earl of Leicester, on whom Henry III bestowed the Honour of Dilwin. Upon the death of this illustrious and unfortunate Prince in 1296, of a broken heart, his son Thomas, Earl of Lancaster, succeeded him, followed in turn by his brother who took Edward II prisoner in the following reign [Edward III] Nicholas de Audley held Dilwin, but probably under a superior Lord, he Lancaster family - for when we read that when the military fees of Henry Earl of Lancaster were divided between his two daughters, Maud or Matilda had Dilwin as part of her portion. At her death it might have reverted to the Crown, as her first husband, Lord Stafford, left no children, and there is no account of heirs by her second husband, William, Duke of Zealand. During the War of the Roses we have no record of the Lordship of Dilwin. In the time of Richard III, Sir John Talbot and Dame Margaret his wife, obtained a grant of one third of the manor. In the reign on Henry VIII, the Lordship of Dilwin was taxed for one Knights fee of 2. The last mention made of the Manor is in the time of Queen Elizabeth I, when it was held of the Crown by Knights Service of the Honor of Dilwin, but by whom it does not appear. I am not aware that any mention is to be found of a castle at Dilwin, but there was of course a manor house. The site is still distinctly marked, and its dimensions are traced by a wide and deep moat, which during a greater part of its extent is still filled with water. The orchard adjoining it is called "Court Orchard". Not a vestige of the Court itself is left. Without attaining the dignity and strength of a regularly fortified place, it doubtless was capable of defence against any petty raid or ordinary surprise. It is situated less than a mile from the Church, and lies Southwest of it. The odds of a Mott and Bailey fortification (or wooden castle common after the Norman invasion of 1066 through about the 1400s) is quite probable since the manor house is located on a hill on top of older foundations. The surrounding ground indicates the probability even though no research has been done on this site. Tony Carpenter in England has found records in England dating back to 1215 AD of Carpenters in the Pembridge / Dilwyne area. 1215 JOHN CARPENTER son of a Norman Knight. Pembridge.Will. Hereford 1215 JOAN CARPENTER wife of JOHN Pembridge.Will.Hereford (sister?) JOHN CARPENTER is buried in the Nave of DILWIN Church, Herefordshire. JOAN CARPENTER is buried in the Lady Chapel at Eardisland Church Herefordshire. They owned property and land in this area, probably from the King, as Norman Knights were being brought over from Normandy as Mercenaries to fight against the Barons. Sincerely, John R. Carpenter La Mesa, CA USA Bruce E. Carpenter wrote: > > John: > William of Homme, like other names in early Carpenter family > history, are essentially phantoms i.e. just names with no > apparent reality to attach to them. My enthusiam for > the Pembryg document was that it was actual historical evidence that > recorded Carpenters, in at least the neighborhood > of Dilwyn, in early 1500s. I have never found one bit > of concrete evidence that actually places any Carpenter > near Dilwyn in any of the hundreds of texts that > I have looked through. The Pembryg document tells > us that a William Carpenter (with a brother John) "did his clerical thing" > in a church a horse trot from Dilwyn. This I thought, and still think, > is reason enough to break out the sherry. > > Bruce

John: William of Homme, like other names in early Carpenter family history, are essentially phantoms i.e. just names with no apparent reality to attach to them. My enthusiam for the Pembryg document was that it was actual historical evidence that recorded Carpenters, in at least the neighborhood of Dilwyn, in early 1500s. I have never found one bit of concrete evidence that actually places any Carpenter near Dilwyn in any of the hundreds of texts that I have looked through. The Pembryg document tells us that a William Carpenter (with a brother John) "did his clerical thing" in a church a horse trot from Dilwyn. This I thought, and still think, is reason enough to break out the sherry. Bruce

Thanks to John Chandler for pointing out Pembridge was not a county. The important point here is still that the distance between Staunton and Dilwyn was negligible and we have now an important piece of Carpenter family history. Likewise the "weaver" data is hardly wild speculation given the history of this family group already discovered. The material discovered subsequent to this, that connected Richard Carpenter to the cloth guilds, must be in any sceptics eye, serious evidence. We thank John Chandler. Every scholar needs a good barroom lawyer to keep him in check.I appreciate it. Beware of my typo "down" for "town" in my Tudor Carpenters letter. Sincerely, Bruce Carpenter

It occurs to me that William the vicar may have attended a university before entering his clerical career. Has anyone checked the alumni rosters of Cambridge and Oxford for Carpenters in the 1400's? John Chandler

Dear Folks, While we are entertaining some of the more intriguing possibilities posed by Bruce Carpenter's recent postings, let's be careful not to take terms with both modern and medieval usages and assume they are the same things. Here's what I remember from college, seminary, and reformation history about the late medieval period: 1. English clergy were poorly trained, or sometimes not trained at all. They were poorly paid on the local level, so much so that they frequently had more than one parish or "living" to make ends meet. They frequently did not live in their parishes. A "succesful" cleric might well be sub-contracting his work, as it were, to other clergy. Someone might be vicar of St. Mary's here and St. David's there, and never personally show up to do the services. This did not generally endear them to their parishioners. The laity, however, had very little to do with who was appointed as their parish clergy: the Bishops (in close consultation with the large landowners who generally funded the clerics) appointed priests. 2. There were "minor orders" in addition to the priesthood. One could be "ordained" to be a lector, bellringer, deacon, sub-deacon, doorkeeper & exorcist and never go on to the priesthood. Having these minor orders did put a man under the protection of the church courts, however. 3. The only clergy more disliked than the Bishops and the parish clergy were the monastics, who had title to almost one-third of the arable land in England. The merchant class was happy to cooperate in the dissolution of the monasteries under Henry VIII when it meant they had more grazing land and fewer church taxes. 4. The great disparity between the poorly trained, poorly paid local clergy, and the Bishops (who were government functionaries and very well off indeed) created a very fertile atmosphere for the reformation, English style. Th reformation in England was punctuated by anti-clericalism, land-grabbing, the flowering of the liturgy in English, and a bewildering series of Acts of Parliament. In Germany, the reformation started with the debate of scholarly theses; in France with the eating of sausages on Ash Wednesday, and in England with legislation! 5. I can say with great assurance that in modern usage, a vicar is a priest in charge of a parish that is not financially self-sufficient. In these churches, the Bishop is considered to be the Rector and appoints a Vicar to serve for him (or her). A Rector is a priest in charge of a financially self- sufficient parish and has certain canonical rights associated with that. For example, a Vicar serves at the Bishop's pleasure and can be employed one day and gone the next. A Rector cannot be dismissed without certain procedures and constraints, even by the Bishop. So....it's better to be rector. This point applies to the Episcopal Church in the U.S. at this time: the Anglican Church in England has different fine print, and the fine print matters a great deal. Pat Hobson ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com

Looking for CARPENTER connections with SULLIVAN, RENSHAW, ALMOND, SKIPPER, OAKLEY Hopkins County, KY and possibly in MI and IL. A. J. CARPENTER born 1872, d 1951 in Hopkins Co. KY

Looking for CARPENTER connections with SULLIVAN, RENSHAW, ALMOND, SKIPPER, OAKLEY Hopkins County, KY and possibly in MI and IL.

>From 1485 to 1603 is the Tudor period in English history. We should appropriately refer to Carpenters of the period as Tudor Carpenters; and today I wish to introduce some extremely interesting documents relevant to that fascinating of Tudor Carpenters, Richard, who was Vicar General to the Bishop of Salisbury and other church offices. In fact there is so much material relating to other Carpenters in church matters, in the same geographic area, that it would be deserving of a special study in itself. The dates of these documents conflicts with other death dates (b. 1470 and d. 1503) of Richard. However Richard had so many ecclesiastic offices that it is difficult to accept he lived a mere thirty-three years. The documents here are retrospective, but seemingly referring to the early 1500s, still well after his traditional death date. The Salisbury Cathedral document below leaves us with no doubt who we are dealing with. The document, which I identified with William of Homme, does not seem possible to identify with the John and William that were the sons of William of Homme. It would be difficult to imagine a knighted cleric at such a young age. Here my motive is to provide some social history of this family group. Happily in the previous Tudor Carpenter document introduced, relating to William of Homme, there were records of family land and economic holdings in Coventry with the hint these were cloth manufacture related. The following testimonials connected to Richard Carpenter will illuminate these matters much more brightly. First a record of Richard Carpenter’s holding of Salisbury Cathedral lands, from Patent Rolls, March 6, 1549, well after the death of Richard. “The house and capital mansion of the chantry called Robert Hungerforde’s Chauntrie with Salisbury Cathedral and a garden adjacent to it within the Cathedral Close, and belonging to that Chantry, and lately in occupation of the late chantry priest or incumbent; the messuages with stables, shops, yards, orchards, etc, in the several tenures of Nicholas Lewes……Richard Carpenter……in Salisbury which belonged to the late chantry called Beauchamp’ s Chauntry in Salisbury Cathedral and all other possessions of that chantry in Salisbury.” In another Patent Rolls for 1552 we can discover Richard’s connections to the Mercer’s Guild. The Holy Trinity Guild of clothmakers centered in Bristol has a special place in English history. The cloth they made and traded all over Europe was called “Coventry blue” (see Carus-Wilson, Medieval Merchant Venturers, p. 5). Some of the best wool produced for the manufacture of this cloth was produced in Leominister, an area just adjacent to Dilwyn in Herefordshire. Again, in this record, the writer is looking back at landholders of the past, and indeed the Holy Trinity Guild itself seems disbanded by this 1552 date, at this Coventry location, in the depression that finally restructured the whole of the English economy away from wool and cloth making. From the material below we can safely assume Carpenter connections to Coventry cloth making and trade well back through the 1400s or earlier. “Also grant of the several yearly rents extending to 35s. 2d. and the service which belonged to the late guild or fraternity of Holy Trinity in the parish of St. Michael Coventry and severally issuing from the lands in Coventry of Henry Over, William Cotton and the Mystery of Mercers of Coventry…..the lands in the several tenures of……Richard Carpenter…….in the city and suburbs of Coventry and elsewhere which belonged to the foresaid guild of Holy Trinity.” In an additional Patent Rolls, April 24, 1553 disposition a Richard Carpenter is found renting land from a Worcester “clothyer” Hugh Wylde and his “gentleman” relative of Worcester Thomas Wylde. Here we can see a familiar pattern of the land owning Thomas with his probable sheep and a relative in down in the related retail side of the venture. Richard and his relatives were very much a part of this world. From the Wylde family Richard took twenty-five acres of land, the majority of it meadow and pasture. Sheep? And lastly another document from 1548 concerning James Carpenter. “And James Carpenter, the messuage called le Chauntry House and a dove house (domum columbarum) annexed and cottage called le Hernage in Eldersfeld and the arable lands (26 ac.) in the field of Pendoke, Worcester.” James I suspect is Richard’s brother. Here ‘arable lands’ might rule out sheep. Nevertheless we have a better economic picture of this family group, regardless of what generation these individuals are assigned. Bruce E. Carpenter

Bruce wrote: > the "weaver" data is hardly wild speculation given > the history of this family group Beware of circular reasoning. You mustn't place the persons mentioned in a document within a family group until the evidence justifies it. Because of the mobility of clerics, the geographical proximity of Staunton to Dilwyn is weak evidence at best. The fact that the thrice- removed former holder of the property was a weaver carries no weight in deducing the connections of the present company. Note that, along among the cast of characters, William's brother John is not assigned any place of abode: he might well be from another area entirely. Verdict: not proven. John Chandler