- I second that Patti Bruce is a good research he has not flown off he is just presenting his research like we all do . If Dan do like they have a button called "Delete "
I strongly agree with Patti from Clearwater, FL (CARPENTER-D Digest V99 #247 ,Sat, 9 Oct 1999 18:04:36 EDT From: Ancestor1@aol.com) and hope her articulate statement is heeded well. What better place is there to discuss -- intelligently and with tolerance -- all aspects of Carpenter genealogy than on this list? The fact that some of the postings are of little interest to some of us is a testimony to the breadth and depth of the Carpenter lines as well as to those who are dedicated to the pursuit of all levels of such research. Most of the items that appear on this list have little bearing on my immediate research. Based on the minimal responses I have received when I have posted my queries, my guess is that reverse is also true. Even in the digest mode which I use, I have no problem bypassing those postings that have little bearing on me. Don Carpenter
Dear Lynne, All I have is the data from the book called "The Carpenter Family in America" by Daniel H. Carpenter, 1912. My guess (a common occurance in those days) is that Urania and her husband took in or adopted "Carpenter Sisters" (Carrie, Emma & Marie). They were probably children of Leonard or Jacob. The adoption of the two boys may have been from one of Urania's sisters (unlikey due to known spouse names) or a step sister (more likely). If would be so kind to send me a GEDCOM of what you have on this line, I will send you what I have on the ancestors via GEDCOM. Sincerely, John R. Carpenter La Mesa, CA A. Lynne Ashley wrote: > > John: > > Yes, the information matches. I do have Jacob Carpenter as Urania's father. > Do you have anything or suggestions about the "Carpenter Sisters"? They > were involved with an adoption, I think, of two boys. I am not sure if the > boys surname was Laity before their adoption or after their adoption. > > Lynne > LASHLEY@prodigy.net > http://www.familytreemaker.com/users/a/s/h/A-L-Ashley/ > ----- Original Message ----- > From: John Carpenter <jrcrin001@home.com> > To: A. Lynne Ashley <LASHLEY@prodigy.net> > Cc: <CARPENTER-L@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Saturday, October 09, 1999 11:09 PM > Subject: Re: Urania Medora Carpenter (1835-1865) > > Dear Lynne, > > Could this be your Urania and her family? > > If so, let me know. > > John R. Carpenter > La Mesa, CA > > +---¦Robert CARPENTER-26612 > Jacob CARPENTER-26629 ¦ ¦Abt 1753/1760 > Abt 1799/1812 -----------¦ ¦White Plains,Westchester,NY > Duanesburgh,Schoharie,NY ¦ MRIN:9607 > --SPOUSE-- MRIN:9613 +---¦Sarah CRAWFORD-18380 > Catherine WHITE-26641 ¦ 2 Apr 1768 > Abt 1799/1812 ¦Union,Westchester,CT > ,,NY > > --CHILDREN-- ages estimated only! > 1-Leonard W. CARPENTER-36492 > 2-Jacob CARPENTER-36493 > 3-Cynthia CARPENTER-36494 > 4-Sarah Jane CARPENTER-36495 > 5-Abigail Ann CARPENTER-36496 > 6-Urania W. CARPENTER-36497 > > INDIVIDUAL DATA RIN:26629 > ---------------------------------------------------- > Name:Jacob CARPENTER Sex:M ID No: > Birth:Abt 1799/1812 Place:Duanesburgh,Schoharie,NY > Chr: Place: > Marr:Abt 1815/1830 Spouse:Catherine WHITE-26641 > Marr: Spouse: > Marr: Spouse: > Death: Place: > Burial: Place: > Father:Robert CARPENTER-26612 Mother:Sarah CRAWFORD-18380 > Notes ----------------------------------------------- > !Number 712 in the book, the Carpenter Family in America by Daniel H. > Carpenter, 1901. > Family on page 240 and 241. He was a farmer at Duanesburgh. > Born abt 1812 per the above record. > end notes. > > ******************************************************* > A. Lynne Ashley wrote: > > > > Hello: > > > > Does anyone have information about Urania Medora Carpenter (born abt. > 1835 - > > d. 1865) married to Andrew Sperbeck. Also, does anyone know anything > about > > the "Carpenter Sisters" (Carrie, Emma & Marie)? Somehow they are > connected > > to Urania. > > > > Lynne > > LASHLEY@prodigy.net > > http://www.familytreemaker.com/users/a/s/h/A-L-Ashley/
Hello: Does anyone have information about Urania Medora Carpenter (born abt. 1835 - d. 1865) married to Andrew Sperbeck. Also, does anyone know anything about the "Carpenter Sisters" (Carrie, Emma & Marie)? Somehow they are connected to Urania. Lynne LASHLEY@prodigy.net http://www.familytreemaker.com/users/a/s/h/A-L-Ashley/
Dear Lynne, Could this be your Urania and her family? If so, let me know. John R. Carpenter La Mesa, CA +---¦Robert CARPENTER-26612 Jacob CARPENTER-26629 ¦ ¦Abt 1753/1760 Abt 1799/1812 -----------¦ ¦White Plains,Westchester,NY Duanesburgh,Schoharie,NY ¦ MRIN:9607 --SPOUSE-- MRIN:9613 +---¦Sarah CRAWFORD-18380 Catherine WHITE-26641 ¦ 2 Apr 1768 Abt 1799/1812 ¦Union,Westchester,CT ,,NY --CHILDREN-- ages estimated only! 1-Leonard W. CARPENTER-36492 2-Jacob CARPENTER-36493 3-Cynthia CARPENTER-36494 4-Sarah Jane CARPENTER-36495 5-Abigail Ann CARPENTER-36496 6-Urania W. CARPENTER-36497 INDIVIDUAL DATA RIN:26629 - -------------------------------------------------- Name:Jacob CARPENTER Sex:M ID No: Birth:Abt 1799/1812 Place:Duanesburgh,Schoharie,NY Chr: Place: Marr:Abt 1815/1830 Spouse:Catherine WHITE-26641 Marr: Spouse: Marr: Spouse: Death: Place: Burial: Place: Father:Robert CARPENTER-26612 Mother:Sarah CRAWFORD-18380 Notes ----------------------------------------------- !Number 712 in the book, the Carpenter Family in America by Daniel H. Carpenter, 1901. Family on page 240 and 241. He was a farmer at Duanesburgh. Born abt 1812 per the above record. end notes. ******************************************************* A. Lynne Ashley wrote: > > Hello: > > Does anyone have information about Urania Medora Carpenter (born abt. 1835 - > d. 1865) married to Andrew Sperbeck. Also, does anyone know anything about > the "Carpenter Sisters" (Carrie, Emma & Marie)? Somehow they are connected > to Urania. > > Lynne > LASHLEY@prodigy.net > http://www.familytreemaker.com/users/a/s/h/A-L-Ashley/
CARPENTER-D-request@rootsweb.com wrote: > Subject: > > CARPENTER-D Digest Volume 99 : Issue 247 > > Today's Topics: > #1 Maurice Carpenter ["Bruce E. Carpenter" <carp@whidbey] > #2 John H. Carpenter [Sissy1226@aol.com] > #3 Re: Carpenter Genealogy [" John L. Carpenter" <jcarp45@top.] > #4 Gloucester's Tenants ["Bruce E. Carpenter" <carp@whidbey] > #5 drivel ["Bruce E. Carpenter" <carp@whidbey] > #6 RE: When uninterested - Delete! [Ancestor1@aol.com] > > Administrivia: > To unsubscribe from CARPENTER-D, send a message to > > CARPENTER-D-request@rootsweb.com > > that contains in the body of the message the command > > unsubscribe > > and no other text. No subject line is necessary, but if your software > requires one, just use unsubscribe in the subject, too. > > ______________________________ > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > Subject: Maurice Carpenter > Date: Fri, 8 Oct 1999 21:35:42 -0700 > From: "Bruce E. Carpenter" <carp@whidbey.com> > To: CARPENTER-L@rootsweb.com > > Maurice Carpenter, thought to be born in Ypres in abt. 1280, and the thought > to be father of a Jean le Carpenter born abt. 1304 in France who is alleged > to have died aft. at Dilwyn in Herefordshire, can be demonstrated to be > wholly implausible. There was actually a Carpenter (Carpentier) family who > resided in Ypres at the time.Their names, social status and professions are > extant to be studied. A son of Maurice Carpenter, Pierre Carpentier was a > textile manufacturer at the time (drapier a Ypres). A relative, Lippin le > Carpentier, was a burgomaster of the city itself, an important position to > be sure, and an indication of the prestige and wealth the Ypres Carpenters > enjoyed. Pierre had to be a grown man in order to manage a family and a > textile making business. A safe estimate puts his birth at least when the > birth of Maurice was in 1280. In actuality Maurice had to be born at least > near 1250, or much earlier. Another objection to Maurice is a common sense > one. Why would a fifty-year-old, or much older man, be doing living in > England in 1300, with a new family, while the rest of his old family stayed > behind? The origins of the Maurice connection to Carpenter history began > when in 1912 Edward Carpenter included a Maurice Carpenter or Carpendar from > Gloucester in his book Samuel Carpenter and His Descendants. This Maurice > comes from a notation in a Heralds Visitation; he is just a name with no > historical connections. I have never seen the name Maurice Carpenter in the > hundreds of books that I have looked through. I am sure the two Maurices > lived, but they are hardly the same people. My own source for Ypres > Carpentiers is, Histoire Industrie Drapiere Flandre, Bruxelles, 1924. > > Bruce Carpenter > > ______________________________ > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > Subject: John H. Carpenter > Date: Sat, 9 Oct 1999 09:13:03 EDT > From: Sissy1226@aol.com > To: CARPENTER-L@rootsweb.com > > I am looking for any information reguarding John H. Carpenter, he married > Tressey Tansley. They had 3 children, John, James and Harriet. I know they > came over from Mansfield, England and arrived Ellis Island in 1909. John H. > was the soccer coach for Lehigh University, located in Bethlehem, PA. Anyone > with information, I would greatly appreciate it. > > Thank you > Sissy, a decendant of the Carpenters > > ______________________________ > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > Subject: Re: Carpenter Genealogy > Date: Sat, 9 Oct 1999 10:20:55 -0400 > From: " John L. Carpenter" <jcarp45@top.monad.net> > To: CARPENTER-L@rootsweb.com > > ---- > >6. Obadiah Carpenter, b 22 Jun 1782 Keene, NH, d. 15 Sep 1808, md. 21 Sep > >1808 Nancy MORSE > >7. George Wasingotn Carpenter, b 19 Jan 1815, d. 13 Apr 1897, md.Mary > HILDRETH > >8. Mary Elizabeth Carpenter, b. 18 Dec 1850 Dalton, NH, d. 27 Jun 1903 > >Littleton, NH., md. Bradford KINNE > > > >Do you have any information on any of these families? Thank you for your > >time. > >Sincerely, > >Wendy L. Miller-Kelly > >Wndy who are these children related to ? > > ______________________________ > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > Subject: Gloucester's Tenants > Date: Sat, 9 Oct 1999 09:27:25 -0700 > From: "Bruce E. Carpenter" <carp@whidbey.com> > To: CARPENTER-L@rootsweb.com > > The political tensions of the late 1300s provide us with glimpse of the > London Carpenters and enough evidence to begin to define them as a family > group at this interesting but troubled juncture of English history. The > story begins with the opposition to King Richard II by three powerful > aristocrats, Richard Fitzalan earl of Arundel, Thomas Beauchamp earl of > Warwick and Thomas of Woodstock duke of Gloucester. Open conflict begins in > the late 1380s. Members of the Kings faction are impeached by Parliament by > the urging of the above three. The King retaliates against the supporters of > the three. In the midst of this we find Richard Carpenter and his sons John > and Robert harassed and arrested. The implication of this is that the > Carpenters must have held land from the three, and their economic activities > must have been intertwined. Ten years later in the late 1390s King Richard > II had his revenge on the three aristocrats. Arundel was executed, > Gloucester murdered and Beauchamp banished. John of Gaunt, the man behind > the scene in all of this, remains neutral until his son Henry Bolinbroke > finally deposes King Richard II and he himself becomes King Henry IV. This > sets the stage for the long War of Roses, the conflict between the Lancaster > and Yorkist claims to the throne, with the Carpenters naturally on the > Lancaster side. When the three above aristocrats had their estates > confiscated, the litigation for one of them happily lists the tenants. John > and Robert Carpenter appear as holding a good proportion of the land. The > document is extremely > Long and I will give portions of it. It is from the Calendar of > Inquisitions, document 298. > > Thomas duke of Gloucester had on the day of his forfeiture the manor of > Tarent Launston ..There are 2 carucates of land of 200 acres each .pasture > on le Doune for 400 sheep worth 6s. 8d. yearly in excess of their winter > keep, the shepherds wages and livery and grease for the sheep John Rauwe, > John Hayne, John Carpenter, Walter Russell, Robert Carpenter, John Chubbe, > Vincent Pynselond, Walter Serle, Thomas and John Russell, Rodger Trubbe, > John Rodger and John Roule, whole virgaters, each holding a messuage and 24 > acres of land, paying 4s. yearly and doing works worth 2s. yearly. > > The manor appears to have been in Dorcet. We can assume that the Carpenters > didnt live on the manor. This land was probably one of many of their > holdings. In the document mention is made of the kind of people who actually > managed the land for their absent landlords. The document describes various > uses the land was put to. Sheep were a detailed and special mention, but not > the only mentioned use. Unfortunately which tenant had the sheep is not > specified, although I suspect the Carpenters. > > Bruce E. Carpenter > > ______________________________ > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > Subject: drivel > Date: Sat, 9 Oct 1999 14:30:23 -0700 > From: "Bruce E. Carpenter" <carp@whidbey.com> > To: CARPENTER-L@rootsweb.com > > Dan: > A draper's drivel may be a carpenter's jewel. > BC > -----Original Message----- > From: Dan Draper <dandraper@ionet.net> > To: Bruce E. Carpenter <carp@whidbey.com> > Date: Saturday, October 09, 1999 10:10 AM > Subject: Re: Gloucester's Tenants > > >Bruce, > > > >Write a book! Don't bother us with this daily drivel! > > > >Dan Draper, Jr. > >Stillwater, Oklahoma > > > > ______________________________ > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > Subject: RE: When uninterested - Delete! > Date: Sat, 9 Oct 1999 18:04:36 EDT > From: Ancestor1@aol.com > To: CARPENTER-L@rootsweb.com > > Dear Dan: > > I debated over writing this and will probably be bombasted for doing so but > was that comment truly warranted? I have not been one of Bruce's fans and > have gone head-to-head with him in the past but I must admit I have to > respect a person (anyone) who puts that much work and determination into his > research. I believe that he may be using us as a "sounding board" for > discussing his research. Who better that other Carpenter researchers?? It > takes another genealogist to appreciate the work and the enthusiaism we feel > when we've made a "find"!! I realize that you (and others) may feel that > his work does not pertain to you and indeed it may not BUT there may come a > time when your own research brings you back to the period of time in > discussion today! I'm sure that anyone who's ancestral lines lead there > would be grateful to have available the information that Bruce (or any other > researcher) has found and examined. Most of us would not even have access to > those documents being discussed. May I suggest that those of you that are > uninterested merely use your delete button? (I'm sure we all recognize the > email address by now!) Thanks in advance for being understanding. A fellow > Carpenter researcher............ > > Patti > Clearwater, Florida
Dan: A draper's drivel may be a carpenter's jewel. BC -----Original Message----- From: Dan Draper <dandraper@ionet.net> To: Bruce E. Carpenter <carp@whidbey.com> Date: Saturday, October 09, 1999 10:10 AM Subject: Re: Gloucester's Tenants >Bruce, > >Write a book! Don't bother us with this daily drivel! > >Dan Draper, Jr. >Stillwater, Oklahoma >
Dear Dan: I debated over writing this and will probably be bombasted for doing so but was that comment truly warranted? I have not been one of Bruce's fans and have gone head-to-head with him in the past but I must admit I have to respect a person (anyone) who puts that much work and determination into his research. I believe that he may be using us as a "sounding board" for discussing his research. Who better that other Carpenter researchers?? It takes another genealogist to appreciate the work and the enthusiaism we feel when we've made a "find"!! I realize that you (and others) may feel that his work does not pertain to you and indeed it may not BUT there may come a time when your own research brings you back to the period of time in discussion today! I'm sure that anyone who's ancestral lines lead there would be grateful to have available the information that Bruce (or any other researcher) has found and examined. Most of us would not even have access to those documents being discussed. May I suggest that those of you that are uninterested merely use your delete button? (I'm sure we all recognize the email address by now!) Thanks in advance for being understanding. A fellow Carpenter researcher............ Patti Clearwater, Florida
The political tensions of the late 1300s provide us with glimpse of the London Carpenters and enough evidence to begin to define them as a family group at this interesting but troubled juncture of English history. The story begins with the opposition to King Richard II by three powerful aristocrats, Richard Fitzalan earl of Arundel, Thomas Beauchamp earl of Warwick and Thomas of Woodstock duke of Gloucester. Open conflict begins in the late 1380s. Members of the Kings faction are impeached by Parliament by the urging of the above three. The King retaliates against the supporters of the three. In the midst of this we find Richard Carpenter and his sons John and Robert harassed and arrested. The implication of this is that the Carpenters must have held land from the three, and their economic activities must have been intertwined. Ten years later in the late 1390s King Richard II had his revenge on the three aristocrats. Arundel was executed, Gloucester murdered and Beauchamp banished. John of Gaunt, the man behind the scene in all of this, remains neutral until his son Henry Bolinbroke finally deposes King Richard II and he himself becomes King Henry IV. This sets the stage for the long War of Roses, the conflict between the Lancaster and Yorkist claims to the throne, with the Carpenters naturally on the Lancaster side. When the three above aristocrats had their estates confiscated, the litigation for one of them happily lists the tenants. John and Robert Carpenter appear as holding a good proportion of the land. The document is extremely Long and I will give portions of it. It is from the Calendar of Inquisitions, document 298. Thomas duke of Gloucester had on the day of his forfeiture the manor of Tarent Launston ..There are 2 carucates of land of 200 acres each .pasture on le Doune for 400 sheep worth 6s. 8d. yearly in excess of their winter keep, the shepherds wages and livery and grease for the sheep John Rauwe, John Hayne, John Carpenter, Walter Russell, Robert Carpenter, John Chubbe, Vincent Pynselond, Walter Serle, Thomas and John Russell, Rodger Trubbe, John Rodger and John Roule, whole virgaters, each holding a messuage and 24 acres of land, paying 4s. yearly and doing works worth 2s. yearly. The manor appears to have been in Dorcet. We can assume that the Carpenters didnt live on the manor. This land was probably one of many of their holdings. In the document mention is made of the kind of people who actually managed the land for their absent landlords. The document describes various uses the land was put to. Sheep were a detailed and special mention, but not the only mentioned use. Unfortunately which tenant had the sheep is not specified, although I suspect the Carpenters. Bruce E. Carpenter
---- >6. Obadiah Carpenter, b 22 Jun 1782 Keene, NH, d. 15 Sep 1808, md. 21 Sep >1808 Nancy MORSE >7. George Wasingotn Carpenter, b 19 Jan 1815, d. 13 Apr 1897, md.Mary HILDRETH >8. Mary Elizabeth Carpenter, b. 18 Dec 1850 Dalton, NH, d. 27 Jun 1903 >Littleton, NH., md. Bradford KINNE > >Do you have any information on any of these families? Thank you for your >time. >Sincerely, >Wendy L. Miller-Kelly >Wndy who are these children related to ?
I am looking for any information reguarding John H. Carpenter, he married Tressey Tansley. They had 3 children, John, James and Harriet. I know they came over from Mansfield, England and arrived Ellis Island in 1909. John H. was the soccer coach for Lehigh University, located in Bethlehem, PA. Anyone with information, I would greatly appreciate it. Thank you Sissy, a decendant of the Carpenters
Maurice Carpenter, thought to be born in Ypres in abt. 1280, and the thought to be father of a Jean le Carpenter born abt. 1304 in France who is alleged to have died aft. at Dilwyn in Herefordshire, can be demonstrated to be wholly implausible. There was actually a Carpenter (Carpentier) family who resided in Ypres at the time.Their names, social status and professions are extant to be studied. A son of Maurice Carpenter, Pierre Carpentier was a textile manufacturer at the time (drapier a Ypres). A relative, Lippin le Carpentier, was a burgomaster of the city itself, an important position to be sure, and an indication of the prestige and wealth the Ypres Carpenters enjoyed. Pierre had to be a grown man in order to manage a family and a textile making business. A safe estimate puts his birth at least when the birth of Maurice was in 1280. In actuality Maurice had to be born at least near 1250, or much earlier. Another objection to Maurice is a common sense one. Why would a fifty-year-old, or much older man, be doing living in England in 1300, with a new family, while the rest of his old family stayed behind? The origins of the Maurice connection to Carpenter history began when in 1912 Edward Carpenter included a Maurice Carpenter or Carpendar from Gloucester in his book Samuel Carpenter and His Descendants. This Maurice comes from a notation in a Heralds Visitation; he is just a name with no historical connections. I have never seen the name Maurice Carpenter in the hundreds of books that I have looked through. I am sure the two Maurices lived, but they are hardly the same people. My own source for Ypres Carpentiers is, Histoire Industrie Drapiere Flandre, Bruxelles, 1924. Bruce Carpenter
Dear Bruce, Late Medieval Genealogy is not an exact science. Much of the data has to be translated correctly and interpreted in that time's mores and foibles. Add to the variations of the "Victor" writing the history and it gets "fuzzy." The connection between William "the carpenter" DeMelun through Richard and Christina in London is not a proven fact. It is speculation or the best guess with the material on hand. Yes there are records saying X was the son of father of Y and related to Z. However the connection bringing Maurice from France into England HAS NOT BEEN PROVED. We have two Maurices with similar families on both sides of the English Channel. We surmise or guess they are the same person. A few generations beyond Maurice is another stumbling block. A few more beyond that is another. These speculations have always been in the notes and explanations I give to people. I fully expect to have people (like you and others) to present new data that will change how the puzzle looks. Every little bit helps. I truely would love to have dozens of Carpenter Researchers gathers bits and pieces on the early lines of the Carpenters. No doubt the puzzle contains stories and lines we have not even thought about yet! You are presenting helpful data to all Carpenters a piece at a time. If you write an article or book on your research, you compile that data into one source. That is the basic "why" of the Carpenter CD Project ... To gather together the various parts of the Carpenter Family with research data FOR FUTURE CARPENTER RESEARCHERS. This means the good, the bad and ugly parts of the family. In doing so, you help everyone! Amos Bugbee Carpenter did an amazing job with his Carpenter Memorial published in 1898. Does it contain mistakes and ommissions? YES! Carpenter Researchers are finding errors in some manner all the time. Will the Carpenter CD Project have mistakes? Damm right it will. Regardless of how much effort I and others put into it, there will still be mistakes. I encourage you to compile the data you are finding. State the facts you find and list your best guess how they fit. Remember to state your rational for future readers and researchers. They might use your facts but not the same interpretation because they have new data. If you follow this very basic formula - it can not but help others! I wish you the best of Luck in researching. I wish I had more time and money to do so. My main focus is the compiling of the Carpenter CD for the deadline at the end of the year 2000. I only have so much time and energy to go around. Until next time Cousin! John R. Carpenter La Mesa, CA USA Bruce E. Carpenter wrote: > > John: > I have no real plans to write > a book, but as we are beginning to see > a really good one could be. That person > would need good French, good Latin, a good historical > education, money, time and good writing skills. > I hope it is becoming clear that this > story is more complicated, and more interesting, > than many people had realized. This is my only > object. I worry about you and your CD, John. It > pains me to think your Carpenter history pre 1450 > will be flawed. I have tried everything > short of hitting you over the head about it. Why don't > you let me help you? > BC > -----Original Message----- > From: John Carpenter <jrcrin001@home.com> > To: Bruce E. Carpenter <carp@whidbey.com> > Cc: CARPENTER-L@rootsweb.com <CARPENTER-L@rootsweb.com> > Date: Friday, October 08, 1999 9:44 AM > Subject: Re: Important Discovery > > >Dear Bruce, > > > >When do you plan to have your book out? > > > >Curious, > > > >John R. Carpenter > >La Mesa, CA > > > >Bruce E. Carpenter wrote: > >> > >> Just found was a longish document listing > >> John Carpenter and Robert Carpenter, brothers of Town Clerk John, as > >> tennants > >> of Thomas, Duke of Gloucester in the reign of King Richard II. > >> To those of you Carpenters not yet bored by the subject, > >> this is an unbelievable find with all kinds of economic > >> details and political implications. Before I post it > >> please read again what I found and said about > >> Carpenters in the reign of Richard II re. the arrests of > >> carpenters and their allignment to Lancastrian interests, Warwickshire > >> Beauchamps and Duke of Gloucester Thomas. > >> BC
This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------FB61E34DF92CE8015ABD6F72 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear Annabel, John L. Carpenter and I have similar data. You might find slight differences in the attached report. I can understand your frustration and deadline. My suggestion is to relax. While many books have been written on the subject of field trips ... Here are some basics: On your trip take either a laptop or printout of all your names. And maybe even the attached report of mine. Bring paper, pencils etceteras. Assume double the time you estimate and don't be surprised that is not enough! Take a camera also. Pictures are wonderful and if you get your picture taken with the priest, send him a copy with your thank you letter or note. The folks at the local Family History Center / genealogical center can be very helpful. They know the area and many of the people working the different lines. Leave your name and address. Ask for help. Make copies (2 rolls of quarters at least) or hand write (have a lot of paper) all Carpenter and related name data. It is very frustrating to have been somewhere and not gotten what you needed. When going into churches make a donation. It shows you helping them as they might help you. Remember to have fun! Best of Luck! John R. Carpenter La Mesa, CA (619) 466-5735 abixby wrote: > > Hi- > I am really in need of some help! ( Note- The numbers after the names > are the numbers in the "Carpenter family in America.") > I have corresponded with one of you who has the Carpenter website- who > couldn't help me. I have a research project due by Oct. 15th > for independent study in a family history class. Here is the problem! > I have both the Carpenter and Quintard genealogy and it seems that > neither one has enough information on the Thomas Carpenter(55)- p. 96 > who I am looking for -According to the Carpenter genealogy, he was born > in 1726, son of Joseph Carpenter(19)at Oyster Bay, Long Island- he > married 1. Ann Stocker in abt. 1748- she apparently died and then he > married Lucretia Burroughs Quintard on 29 August, 1781 at St. Georges, > Hempstead, Long Island. He served under Delancey - fought on the British > side and at the end of the war, he went to New Brunswick. I have found > a land grant for Lieut. Thomas Carpenter in New Brunswick. I have the > Quintard genealogy back to France- they were Huguenots who fled France > to Bristol, England and then to NY and settled in Stamford before 1700. > According to the Carpenter genealogy, Thomas (55) and Lucretia went to > Nova Scotia ( which became New Brunswick) where he had land granted to > him- and then by 1797, they were back in New York in Saratoga where they > sold their land in Stamford, CT. The genealogy also lists one son for > him, Thomas (146) b. 1757. I looked him up and found that this Thomas > married Edith Bunce and was a "very prominent man in religious circles > and also politically- " He was an alderman of the Methodist church, etc. > The author states " while somewhat in doubt as to the correctness of > this pedigree, etc." His son, Thomas is 399a and I can't find anything > further on 399a. > > Here is my problem: > If the same Thomas ( 55)( born 1726) married Lucretia Quintard in 1781, > then he was 106 yrs old when he died in 1831. They settled in > Lansingburg, Troy, New York ( not far from Saratoga) The records of > Trinity Episcopal Church of Lansingburg ( cemetery- obits, etc) state > that he died 14? of May, 1831 aged 76 yrs. That means he was born in > 1755 0r 1756. ( very close to the 1757 birth date of Thomas ( 149) son > of Thomas and Ann Stocker. Beside his gravestone is Lucretia Q. > Carpenter, wife of Thomas Carpenter, d. 23 May, 1816 at age 55 yrs. > According to the Quintard genealogy, she was born in 1761 which fits. Of > note is that her mother, Lucretia Burroughs, wife of Isaac Quintard died > in Stamford, CT on the 10 Sept. 1796- therefore, the land they sold in > 1797 was probably the Stamford property that she had inherited from her > mother ( who was a widow- her father had died in 1794) It seems that the > Quintards were also loyalists although I don't know that they left > Stamford - Lucretia's two paternal aunts married loyalists (Ketchum and > Hubbard) moved to Nova Scotia ( and then St. John, NB) and her 2 > sisters married husbands who were prob loyalists- (Leake and Wilson) > since they moved from CT to NYC and/or Long Island and eventually > settled in Albany ( in the same area as Lansingburg and Troy- they were > all in Albany County at the time) > I have found a Lieut. Thomas Carpenter from the New Brunswick grantbook > database who was given a grant in Parr Town ( which I believe was later > St. John) in 1784 ( NS) and 1785 ( NB) - That could be him but in any > case, Thomas and Lucretia had at least 3 children born bet. 1788 and > 1793. ( there could have been more) Of note is that both Lucretia's > aunts were also in the same parish and town in New Brunswick ( the > Hubbards and Ketchums) > Later, when Thomas and Lucretia moved to NY, both her sisters and their > families were there also. I am not certain how many Carpenters went to > NB first and then ended up in Albany area of NY- I have found both a > Thomas and a Joseph Carpenter in the Albany area ( or Lansingburg) in > the 1820 census index. Does anyone have any ancestors ( Carpenters) from > that part of NY state? or a Thomas ( son of Thomas and Ann Stocker) - > No.146 The one who was an alderman in the Methodist church in NY- born > in 1757? The reason I am trying to locate anyone who might have him in > their ancestry is b/c the author was uncertain of the "correctness of > this ancestry" and I wonder if that Thomas was the son of Thomas and Ann > Stocker and the husband of Lucretia Quintard. That would make sense! > The strange way I found the Carpenter family was that my > ggreat-grandmother had a prenuptial agreement signed with her husband to > be b/c her mother had died when she was a baby and her grandfather had > left her mother's share of his estate to her- Her mother was Elizabeth > Quintard (Carpenter) Taylor b. 1793 d. 1823( d/o Thomas and Lucretia > Carpenter) as written in her obit and/or on gravestone- ( wife of Dr. > John Taylor)- they are all buried in the Trinity Episcopal Church > cemetery in Lansingburg. Although I knew that Lucretia Taylor ( my > ggreat-grandmother was the daughter of Elizabeth Quintard Taylor, I > first discovered that her mother's maiden name was Carpenter and her > grandfather was Thomas because of the prenuptial agreement! Then, I > found the rest of the connections- but I still can't make the connection > as to who were the parents of Thomas Carpenter the loyalist! > I have contacted St. George Church in Hempstead where they were married > and the warden saye the records are in the vault- I live in California > and he is willing to search but he does not know when he may have time > to do it- I need to do a search on the two marriages ( Thomas and Anne > Stocker) and Thomas and Lucretia Quintard. The records have never been > copied by the LDS- only some marriages in the early 1700s- and the > warden does not think anyone has copied them. I am going to be in New > England at Thanksgiving and if possible, I thought I would try to get to > the church in Hempstead but with grandchildren in tow, I don't know! I > live in California- and would appreciate any input that anyone has > concerning this line of the family. Or any suggestions where to look? > Thank you- > Annabel Bixby > abixby@home.com --------------FB61E34DF92CE8015ABD6F72 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; name="20039.txt" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline; filename="20039.txt" Descendants of Thomas CARPENTER-20039 First Generation 1. Thomas CARPENTER-20039 was born 15 Feb 1726 in Musketa Cove, Queens, LI, NY. He died after 1783 in Smithtown, or Southold, LI, NY. !Number 56 in the book "The Carpenter Family in America" by Daniel H. Carpenter, 1901. Family on page 96. Probably, after selling property willed to him by his father, he went back to Canada or England. See note below, however. He went to St. John's, N.B., at the peace and was one of the grantees of that city. On 30 Sept. 1797, he and his wife Lucretia sold land at Stamford, CT (her parents old property!). No further trace can be found. Did he go west to Indiana? He was a loyalist who fled to Nova Scotia and returned to Long Island to die. He was a sergeant and Adjutant, 2nd Delancey's Brigade, a loyalist unit in New York. His son was an Ensign in the 3rd Battalion. Thomas married (1-MRIN:7178) Anne STOCKER-20045 on 2 Oct 1748 in St. George's, Church, Hempstead, LI. Anne was born about 1726 in of, NY. She died before 1781. NAME: Stocker or Stoiker. Note: a Henry Stocker of Great Neck, LI made his will April 18, 1785. (New York Wills, 38, 122.) Thomas and Anne had the following children: + 2 M i. Thomas CARPENTER Jr.-22633 was born 1757 and died 7 Apr 1825. Thomas also married (2-MRIN:9973) Lucretia QUINTARD-20046, daughter of Isaac QUINTARD-20047 and Lucretia-20048 (MRIN:7180) on 20 Aug 1781 in St. George's, Church, Hempstead, LI. Lucretia was born 10 Feb 1760 in Stamford, Queens, LI, NY. Lucretia Quintard was daughter of Isaac and Lucretia Quintard. They were loyalists and went from Stamford to Long Island for protection, and after the war were compelled to emigrate to Nova Scotia. Second Generation 2. Thomas CARPENTER Jr.-22633 was born 1757 in Musketa Cove, Queens, LI, NY. He died 7 Apr 1825 in New York City, Brooklyn, NY and was buried 1888 in Greenwood Cem., Brooklyn, NY. Number 146 in the book "The Carpenter Family in America" by Daniel H. Carpenter, 1901. Family on page 135 & 136. BIRTH: The book above lists him probably born near Huntington or Smithtown on Long Island in 1757. Mr. Carpenter was a very prominent man in religious circles and also politically. He was for many years a member of the John Street Methodist Church and of the Sands Street Church in Brooklyn. He was Alderman of the second ward, New York City, a member of Assembly, warden of the port, et cetera. He also was largely known as a wholesale grocer, doing business in Water Street and Fulton Street. Thomas Carpenter and Leffert Lefferts, owners of the brigatine Susan and Polly, petition Congress for commission of duties et cetera. Petition granted. Per Journal of Representatives, 1794, p. 103. !WILL: The will of Thomas Carpenter is an unusual one, very short and to the point: gives estate to his wife, son Charles, daughter Sarah Russell, and to William Carpenter's Family. Names Abigail Fowler, and gives his camblet cloak to Charles Fowler, provides payment to William Dando, Dr. Phoebus and Abigail Fowler. Will dated 30 Sept. 1824 and proved 30 April 1825. Per New York Wills, vol. 59, p. 311. DEATH: He was buried by the side of his first wife in the grounds adjoining the Sands Street Church in Brooklyn. On the sale of this church in 1888, to the Brooklyn Bridge, the remains were reinterred in the plot of Mark Fowler, Greenwood Cemetery. In Wakely's "Lost Chapters of Methodism" may be found an exceedingly interesting account of Thomas Carpenter. Thomas married (1-MRIN:10014) Edith BUNCE a widow-27678 on 8 Oct 1783 in NY. Edith was born about 1762 in NY. She died 13 Mar 1808 in New York City, Brooklyn, NY. She died at age 46. See husband's notes regarding reburial in 1888. Thomas and Edith had the following children: 3 M i. Thomas CARPENTER-27679 was born 7 Jun 1786 in New York City, NY. He died 19 Apr 1808 in New York City, NY. !Number 399a in the book "The Carpenter Family in America" by Daniel H. Carpenter, 1901. No family listed. New York City or Brooklyn. + 4 F ii. Abigail CARPENTER-27680 was born 1788 and died 1850. + 5 F iii. Sarah CARPENTER-27681 was born 1790. + 6 M iv. Charles Wesley CARPENTER Rev.-27682 was born 16 Dec 1792 and died 10 May 1853. + 7 M v. William CARPENTER-27683 was born about 1794. + 8 F vi. Mary Anna CARPENTER-27684 was born 1 Feb 1796 and died 29 Jun 1817. Thomas also married (2-MRIN:7179) Mary HOUSEMAN a widow-27677 on 1821 in NY. Mary was born about 1762 in NY. Houseman was former married name. Third Generation 4. Abigail CARPENTER-27680 was born 1788 in New York City, NY. She died 1850 in New York City, Brooklyn, NY. Number 400 in the book "The Carpenter Family in America" by Daniel H. Carpenter, 1901. Family in notes. Abigail married (1-MRIN:10019) Mark FOWLER-27693 on 1804 in NY. Mark was born about 1788 in Milford, CT. They had the following children: + 9 F i. Emily A. FOWLER-27694 was born about 1808. 5. Sarah CARPENTER-27681 was born 1790 in New York City, Brooklyn, NY. Number 401 in the book "The Carpenter Family in America" by Daniel H. Carpenter, 1901. Family in notes. Sarah married (1-MRIN:10018) Abram RUSSELL-27690 about 1810 in NY. Abram was born about 1790 in NY. A hardware dealer on Fulton Street, NY and living in the 1850s at 121 Washington Square. Abram and Sarah had the following children: 10 F i. Hilah RUSSELL-27691 was born about 1812 in NY. 11 M ii. Fayette RUSSELL-27692 was born about 1815 in NY. 6. Charles Wesley CARPENTER Rev.-27682 was born 16 Dec 1792 in New York City, Brooklyn, NY. He died 10 May 1853 in Plattekill, Orange, NY. Number 402 in the book "The Carpenter Family in America" by Daniel H. Carpenter, 1901. Family on page 195 & 196. Charles and his wife sold land at Flushing, LI to Isaac Peck on May 10, 1828 Per Jamacia Records. As early as 1806 he had joined the church of his father, the John Street Episcopal and when about 19 years of age received from Freeborn Garretson his first licence to exhort, and soon after he was licensed as a local preacher by the Quarterly Conference in New York. His health was never good and caused him to leave college and eventually led to his demise. A portrait of him and an interesting biographical sketch of his life and ministry may be found in Warriner's "Old Sands Street Church of Brooklyn, page 271, et cetera. See also "Sacred Memories", by Rev. W. C. Smith. Charles married (1-MRIN:10022) Bethiah WALKER-27699 on 24 Apr 1813 in NY. Bethiah was born about 1792 in of Sagharbor, NY. They had the following children: + 12 M i. Albert CARPENTER-27700 was born 11 Jan 1814 and died 13 Nov 1876. 7. William CARPENTER-27683 was born about 1794 in New York City, Brooklyn, NY. Number 403 in the book "The Carpenter Family in America" by Daniel H. Carpenter, 1901. Family in notes. He had the following children: 13 F i. Edith CARPENTER-27688 was born about 1818 in NY. Edith married (1-MRIN:10017) BUNCE-27689 about 1839 in NY. BUNCE was born about 1818 in NY. 8. Mary Anna CARPENTER-27684 was born 1 Feb 1796 in New York City, Brooklyn, NY. She died 29 Jun 1817. Number 404 in the book "The Carpenter Family in America" by Daniel H. Carpenter, 1901. She had two children who both died in infancy. Mary married (1-MRIN:10015) William B. SKIDMORE-27685 about 1815 in NY. William was born about 1796 in NY. They h
Dear Bruce, When do you plan to have your book out? Curious, John R. Carpenter La Mesa, CA Bruce E. Carpenter wrote: > > Just found was a longish document listing > John Carpenter and Robert Carpenter, brothers of Town Clerk John, as > tennants > of Thomas, Duke of Gloucester in the reign of King Richard II. > To those of you Carpenters not yet bored by the subject, > this is an unbelievable find with all kinds of economic > details and political implications. Before I post it > please read again what I found and said about > Carpenters in the reign of Richard II re. the arrests of > carpenters and their allignment to Lancastrian interests, Warwickshire > Beauchamps and Duke of Gloucester Thomas. > BC
Just found was a longish document listing John Carpenter and Robert Carpenter, brothers of Town Clerk John, as tennants of Thomas, Duke of Gloucester in the reign of King Richard II. To those of you Carpenters not yet bored by the subject, this is an unbelievable find with all kinds of economic details and political implications. Before I post it please read again what I found and said about Carpenters in the reign of Richard II re. the arrests of carpenters and their allignment to Lancastrian interests, Warwickshire Beauchamps and Duke of Gloucester Thomas. BC
-----I sent you all I have on Lucretia Quitard and ThomasCarpenter
Hi- I am really in need of some help! ( Note- The numbers after the names are the numbers in the "Carpenter family in America.") I have corresponded with one of you who has the Carpenter website- who couldn't help me. I have a research project due by Oct. 15th for independent study in a family history class. Here is the problem! I have both the Carpenter and Quintard genealogy and it seems that neither one has enough information on the Thomas Carpenter(55)- p. 96 who I am looking for -According to the Carpenter genealogy, he was born in 1726, son of Joseph Carpenter(19)at Oyster Bay, Long Island- he married 1. Ann Stocker in abt. 1748- she apparently died and then he married Lucretia Burroughs Quintard on 29 August, 1781 at St. Georges, Hempstead, Long Island. He served under Delancey - fought on the British side and at the end of the war, he went to New Brunswick. I have found a land grant for Lieut. Thomas Carpenter in New Brunswick. I have the Quintard genealogy back to France- they were Huguenots who fled France to Bristol, England and then to NY and settled in Stamford before 1700. According to the Carpenter genealogy, Thomas (55) and Lucretia went to Nova Scotia ( which became New Brunswick) where he had land granted to him- and then by 1797, they were back in New York in Saratoga where they sold their land in Stamford, CT. The genealogy also lists one son for him, Thomas (146) b. 1757. I looked him up and found that this Thomas married Edith Bunce and was a "very prominent man in religious circles and also politically- " He was an alderman of the Methodist church, etc. The author states " while somewhat in doubt as to the correctness of this pedigree, etc." His son, Thomas is 399a and I can't find anything further on 399a. Here is my problem: If the same Thomas ( 55)( born 1726) married Lucretia Quintard in 1781, then he was 106 yrs old when he died in 1831. They settled in Lansingburg, Troy, New York ( not far from Saratoga) The records of Trinity Episcopal Church of Lansingburg ( cemetery- obits, etc) state that he died 14? of May, 1831 aged 76 yrs. That means he was born in 1755 0r 1756. ( very close to the 1757 birth date of Thomas ( 149) son of Thomas and Ann Stocker. Beside his gravestone is Lucretia Q. Carpenter, wife of Thomas Carpenter, d. 23 May, 1816 at age 55 yrs. According to the Quintard genealogy, she was born in 1761 which fits. Of note is that her mother, Lucretia Burroughs, wife of Isaac Quintard died in Stamford, CT on the 10 Sept. 1796- therefore, the land they sold in 1797 was probably the Stamford property that she had inherited from her mother ( who was a widow- her father had died in 1794) It seems that the Quintards were also loyalists although I don't know that they left Stamford - Lucretia's two paternal aunts married loyalists (Ketchum and Hubbard) moved to Nova Scotia ( and then St. John, NB) and her 2 sisters married husbands who were prob loyalists- (Leake and Wilson) since they moved from CT to NYC and/or Long Island and eventually settled in Albany ( in the same area as Lansingburg and Troy- they were all in Albany County at the time) I have found a Lieut. Thomas Carpenter from the New Brunswick grantbook database who was given a grant in Parr Town ( which I believe was later St. John) in 1784 ( NS) and 1785 ( NB) - That could be him but in any case, Thomas and Lucretia had at least 3 children born bet. 1788 and 1793. ( there could have been more) Of note is that both Lucretia's aunts were also in the same parish and town in New Brunswick ( the Hubbards and Ketchums) Later, when Thomas and Lucretia moved to NY, both her sisters and their families were there also. I am not certain how many Carpenters went to NB first and then ended up in Albany area of NY- I have found both a Thomas and a Joseph Carpenter in the Albany area ( or Lansingburg) in the 1820 census index. Does anyone have any ancestors ( Carpenters) from that part of NY state? or a Thomas ( son of Thomas and Ann Stocker) - No.146 The one who was an alderman in the Methodist church in NY- born in 1757? The reason I am trying to locate anyone who might have him in their ancestry is b/c the author was uncertain of the "correctness of this ancestry" and I wonder if that Thomas was the son of Thomas and Ann Stocker and the husband of Lucretia Quintard. That would make sense! The strange way I found the Carpenter family was that my ggreat-grandmother had a prenuptial agreement signed with her husband to be b/c her mother had died when she was a baby and her grandfather had left her mother's share of his estate to her- Her mother was Elizabeth Quintard (Carpenter) Taylor b. 1793 d. 1823( d/o Thomas and Lucretia Carpenter) as written in her obit and/or on gravestone- ( wife of Dr. John Taylor)- they are all buried in the Trinity Episcopal Church cemetery in Lansingburg. Although I knew that Lucretia Taylor ( my ggreat-grandmother was the daughter of Elizabeth Quintard Taylor, I first discovered that her mother's maiden name was Carpenter and her grandfather was Thomas because of the prenuptial agreement! Then, I found the rest of the connections- but I still can't make the connection as to who were the parents of Thomas Carpenter the loyalist! I have contacted St. George Church in Hempstead where they were married and the warden saye the records are in the vault- I live in California and he is willing to search but he does not know when he may have time to do it- I need to do a search on the two marriages ( Thomas and Anne Stocker) and Thomas and Lucretia Quintard. The records have never been copied by the LDS- only some marriages in the early 1700s- and the warden does not think anyone has copied them. I am going to be in New England at Thanksgiving and if possible, I thought I would try to get to the church in Hempstead but with grandchildren in tow, I don't know! I live in California- and would appreciate any input that anyone has concerning this line of the family. Or any suggestions where to look? Thank you- Annabel Bixby abixby@home.com
Dear John L., Great to see it! You should have listed the 22 Carpenters on the wall. :) The American Immigrant Wall of Honor. "carpenter" was found 22 times Name Origin Panel William Carpenter England 068 Trevor Carpenter Wales 068 Francis Eric Carpenter England 068 The Carpenter Family Germany 068 Lydia Wesner Carpenter Germany 068 Sara Mary Carpenter London, England 068 Virginia Holopigian Carpenter Turkey 068 Annie Carpenter Collins County Carlow, Ireland 085 Clara Maria Stubberud Carpenter Nordreland, Norway 68 Willis P. Carpenter United States of America 068 Margaret Ann McInroy Carpenter Scotland 068 Melissa Marie Carpenter Poland 068 Christina Marie Carpenter Poland 068 Edith Mae Carpenter Price Wales, United Kingdom 352 Joan Ida Collins Carpenter Ireland 068 Harold Carpenter Liverpool, England 068 Meta Koschade Carpenter Poland 497 Wilhelmina VanTiggelen Carpenter Belgium 497 Bridget Shanahan Carpenter Ireland 497 Peggy Carpenter Isby Hampstead, London, England 609 The Marcellus Chipman Carpenter Family United States of America 590 Julius John and Anya Raiva Carpenter U.S.A. and Ukraine 590 All names here are inscribed and available for viewing on The American Immigrant Wall of Honor at Ellis Island unless they are listed as "to be inscribed". Names listed as to be inscribed will be inscribed on the "New Millennium" edition of The American Immigrant Wall of Honor at Ellis Island in April 2000. Database last updated on: Sep 2nd, 1999 John L. Carpenter wrote: > > Wm Carpenter of England is on panel 68 at Ellis Island memorial > -----Original Message----- > From: John L. Carpenter <jcarp45@top.monad.net> > To: jcarp45@top.monad.net <jcarp45@top.monad.net> > Date: 07 October, 1999 3:56 PM > Subject: Search Results @ 4:13:03 PM > > http://www.wallofhonor.com/queryframebottom.asp > > --------------------------------------------------------------- > Click here for a list of the wonderful benefits > you'll receive when you have the name of a > family member, friend, or even your own name, > inscribed for posterity on The American > Immigrant Wall of Honor. > > "william carpenter from england" was found 1 times > > Name Origin Panel > William Carpenter England 068 > All names here are inscribed and available for > viewing on The American Immigrant Wall of Honor at > Ellis Island unless they are listed as "to be > inscribed". > Names listed as to be inscribed will be inscribed > on the "New Millennium" edition of The American > Immigrant Wall of Honor at Ellis Island in April > 2000. > Database last updated on: Sep 2nd, 1999 > > John L. Carpenter <jcarp45@top.monad.net> > > John L. Carpenter > <jcarp45@top.monad.net> > Additional Information: > Last Name Carpenter > First Name John L. > Version 2.1
Dear Bruce, That the cross channel trade involved the Carpenter/Carpentier family is of no doubt. From the 1200s into this century the Carpenter family has been involved (one way or another) in trade. Current Carpenter Companies involved in shipping and finances still exist today. A Private shipping company! CARPENTER SHIPPING LIMITED 20 HONEY CLOSE CHELMSFORD ESSEX CM2 9SP A Financial group! CARPENTER BOWRING (UK)LIMITED THE BOWRING BUILDING TOWER PLACE LONDON EC3P 3BE There is no doubt that Carpenters from France came and went into England. This still goes on based on the number of Carpentiers in the UK directories. That Carpenters from England had help in Leyden in the mid to late 1500s is no surprise either. These families keep up their "family" and "financial" ties because it was a part of economic and physical survival in the religious and political trials of the times. John R. Carpenter La Mesa, CA Bruce E. Carpenter wrote: > > John: > It might have very much the case for Carpenter history > from the early the early 1200s to well into the 1300s that a great many > Flemish Carpentiers came to settle in England. If we continue to > conceptualize in terms a small nuclear group of Carpentier trader-settlers, > like the Carpenter group that went to Massachusetts, we may have an utterly > erroneous picture of what truly happened. I say this because too much > evidence has passed my eyes that points to maintained contact with the > original family groups and places. For a hundred and fifty years all manner > of relatives must have come and gone. There must have been Carpentiers among > the traders who were known too reside in England only part of the year. As > late as 1557 the Flemish Carpentiers were still trading in England. Note > this 3 and 4 Philip and Mary, Part VIII, May 13,1557 > account of a dastardly crime: > > Whereas it appears by the tenor of a record of George Crofte, one of the > coroners of the town and liberty of Dartmouth, co. Devon, 22 March, 3 and 4 > Ph. and Mary, that it was presented by 12 jurors upon the view of the body > of Guy Carpenter then lying dead in the house of Thomas Mounsey at Dartmouth > that it befel on 21 March between 10 and 11 oclock at night that a foreign > (extraneus) man called Skoenne Mychell, captain of a barke of Flusshyn in > Flanders and the said Carpenter, also of Flanders, were in the said house > and Carpenter made an assault upon Mychell with knives and in self-defense > Mychell drew his dagger (pugionem) and with it (price 12d.) struck > Carpenter. > > This I am sure was all over a beautiful women, and Guy certainly did not > strike the first blow. We cannot say the Flemish Carpentiers were alive and > well in England in 1557, but the fact of their continued trade activity, is > a certainty. > As I mentioned earlier, titled Carpentiers were sought after > for marriages as late as mid 1400s. > > Bruce Carpenter