Uncle Thomas? Robert of Marden Carpenter had an Uncle Thomas, whose birth date is unknown. His father’s birth date is estimated at 1494. Consider the following. A HISTORY OF WILTSHIRE quotes local historical sources that a Thomas Carpenter held property and land in Marden in 1534. “In 1534 the prior of Bradenstoke let the rectory (Marden rectory) to Thomas Carpenter at L.8 yearly, a rental which remained constant throughout the 16th century and earlier 17th centuries.” (P.121) Rectory here refers to a “benefice” or income from the church land. In other words Thomas was probably the vicar of the parish who supported himself from the tithes and incomes of the land. The prior of Bradenstoke held title to the land and Thomas had to pay and basically support to his ecclesiastical landlord. This is all just before the Reformation and the nationalization of all church land in England. We can now see a history of Carpenter presence in Marden. If Thomas was vicar, he must then have had a university connection. Certainly while Thomas was in Marden (a Nicholas Hobbs is vicar in 1544) he could have acquired land that was subsequently passed down in the family. Bruce Carpenter

Dear Bruce, SAR is probably Sarum - now Salisbury. DEV is probably Devizes. It is located north by north east of Salisbury in Wiltshire, England. It is also barely 8 miles east by north east on Marden. John R. Carpenter La Mesa, CA Bruce E. Carpenter wrote: > > My Exeter College data may have > somes problems with abbreviations and > 'removed' meant 'moved' in the sense > moving your residence. Abbreviations DEV > and SAR need more clarification. DEV should mean > co. Devon. > > BC

Dear Bruce, Good Stuff! Below is what I have on Robert Carpenter's father. The will mentioned below that is at the Carpenter Museum had not been cataloged about 2 years ago. Does anyone know if it has been cataloged and made available? Several people have wondered! John R. Carpenter La Mesa, CA INDIVIDUAL DATA RIN:14711 - --------------------------------------------------- Name:William CARPENTER of Marden Sex:M ID No: Birth:Abt 1520 Place:of,Wiltshire,England Chr: Place: Marr: Spouse:Elizabeth CARPENTER-14707 Marr: Spouse: Marr: Spouse: Death: 1587 Place:Marden,Wiltshire,England Burial: Place: Father:Robert CARPENTER-14706 Mother:Elizabeth-19787 Notes -------------------------------------------------- !WILL: His will mentions his wife, and arranged for the division of his estate amoung his grandchildren. His children mentioned were Robert, John, Richard, William, Alice, Dyke, and Maud Welling. The majority of the estate was left to Robert and a special bequest was made to Robert's oldest son, William, proving that this son (this William's grandson), William born in 1576, was older than his brother Richard Carpenter. The Late noted genealogist Donald Lines Jacobus of New Haven, CT, after studying the English Carpenter Wills (copies), now at the Carpenter Museum, praised the expert ability of Harry F. Rogers in interpreting those wills and concurred in his belief that Harry had found the correct family in England. end notes. Bruce E. Carpenter wrote: > > The following are two items, as they appear, from the REGISTER OF EXETER > COLLEGE, one of the various residential colleges of Oxford University. > > “John Batt, Dev. 1567, vac. By absense 1579; B.A. 24 Nov. 1570, M.A. 27 > June 1573. > Robert Carpenter, Sar. 1568, removed 30 June 1579 for absense in > Ireland; B.A. 22 Nov. 1571, M.A. 18 June 1575; 10 Nov.1575 allowed leave of > absence for 4 years to teach in a school or the like, because of his > poverty.” > > The expression “because of his poverty” has to be seen in historical > context, of a widespread economic downturn in Wilts, resulting in the > financial ruin and deprivation of many of the best area families. John Batt > and Robert Carpenter appear side by side in other Exeter documents > suggestion friendship association in a social setting of a limited number of > scholars. During a bad year of the plague Robert Carpenter ran Exeter > College. The identity of a John Batt from Devizes is well established in > Wiltshire history. He was a member of a very prominent cloth making family > whose members were mayor of the city. Their tax rates were at the same rate > as local gentry (A History of Wiltshire, Oxford, vol.10, pp. 253-255). There > must be some connection between the Devises Batts and the Salisbury Batts. > Someone might help with this. The interesting thing here is Robert Carpenter > from Sarum, whose dates exactly match the traditional Robert Carpenter, > grandfather of Rehoboth William Carpenter. An Oxford M.A. and sheep farming > are by no means incompatible in late 1500s Wilts. > Remember that Rehoboth William goes to America with a good quantity of > books. Odd for a house carpenter. > > Along with Robert at Exeter was another Carpenter, but no given name. He > seems to have been an undergraduate. Providence Williams father was also an > Exeter man, at a later date. His identity is without question because Susan > Traveleyan is mentioned. He had four different degrees, including a > doctorate! This Richard Carpenter was a minister among other things. See my > “For Prov. Carpenters” letter. > > If this Robert Carpenter were the one from our Rehoboth line, it would be > interesting if we knew more about his father. Where was he thought to live? > > Sincerely, > Bruce Carpenter

Dear Bruce, Good Posting on Richard Carpenter and his second wife Susan Trivillian (Trevelyan)! Please note that a Robert Batt witnessed the Will of Richard Carpenter. SEE BELOW. Keep the stuff coming! Your Rehoboth, MA Carpenter Cousin ... John R. Carpenter La Mesa, CA INDIVIDUAL DATA RIN:669 - ------------------------------------------ Name:Richard CARPENTER Sex:M ID No:GG8T-DR Birth:Abt 1575/1578 Place:Nettlecomb,Somerset,England Chr: Place:of,Newton Tony,Wiltshire,England Marr: 7 Aug 1603 Spouse:Alice KNIGHT-19782 Marr: 1 Sep 1606 Spouse:Susanna TRIVILIAN-1432 Marr: Spouse: Death: 7 Aug 1625 Place:Ilchester,Somerset,England Burial:21 Sep 1625 Place:Amesbury Parish,Wiltshire,England Father:Robert CARPENTER oM-14708 Mother:Eleanor CARPENTER-14714 Notes ------------------------------------------------- !SEE "160 ALLIED FAMILIES" BY JOHN OSBORNE AUSTIN, 1893, REPRINTED 1977. (974.0 D2a) PAGE 56 AND 57. "Richard Carpenter of Amesbury" Records at Amesbury show that he was buried there this date (1625,9,21). The names of Richard and Christina are found as family names in the early records of Amesbury; and either by coincidence or from a family connection, it is found that John Carpenter, Town Clerk of London in reigns of Henry V AND Henry VI (and executor of Richard Whitington "THRICE LORD MAYOR OF LONDON" who died 1422) had for parents Richard and Christina. !WILL: A will dated 1614 witnessed by Robert Batt of Wiltshire is probably this Richard. Richard willed his property on Frog Lane in Amesbury to his son William. Thomas Lavington also witnessed the will and was the husband of Agnes Carpenter, daughter of Robert Carpenter of Upton Scudmore. !(It was probably Richard the son who went to Barbadoes in 1634 with brothers William, Thomas and Elias. See below.) !This Richard of Amesbury, Wiltshire, made a trip to America. This is the work of Harry F. Rogers, genealogist, who found this information. Sources cited: Copies of English Wills in Playfair's Britsh Antiquities (London) 1810; Davis & Owen New Peerage (London 1778) V7 page 108; L.G. PINE Burke's Peerage, Baronetage and Knightage; County Histories; Thomas Brewers Memoirss and History of the City of London School for Boys, London 1856 (Founded by John Carpenter the younger, the noted Town Clerk of London, Trice Lord Mayor of London, et cetera). !CHILD: Harry F. Rogers indicates a Dorothy Carpenter, daughter of Richard Carpenter of Amesbury married Stephen Rose At Salisbury Cathedral, Old Sarum in 1618. No mention of her as child in any other record. She possibly came from another marriage? YES! Mother was Alice Knight. !MISC: Marden and Cheriton Parishes, Wherwell in Wiltshire were Puritan strongholds. Rev. Stephen Bachiler and Richard Dummer (who was on the Bevis in 1638) were actively engaged in persuading religious dissenters to join them in New England with their Plough Company. This includes William, brother to this Richard. !MARRIAGE: To Susanna Trevilian dated 1 Sept. 1606 at Dwelly Wells Parish per "Carpenter Chronicles", Page 13, Vol. 4, 1990, by Bette Butcher Topp. Ann Kent did not marry this Richard Carpenter. !MARRIAGE: Per Mr. W.A. Lyons of the Post Office in Newton Tony, Wiltshire, England, per letter 18 Mar. 1997: The Marriage Register for Newton Tony shows: "Richard Carpenter and Alice Knight" married on "7 Aug. 1603." !BURIAL: Amesbury Parish Index and Transcript - Burials 1579-1636: "Richard Carpenter was buryed the 21 daye of September 1625." !AFN 8LBZ-V1 IS THE SAME PERSON, AS IS ID# 8MH8-Q1, AS IS ID# 8NHZ-Q0 WITH THE EXCEPTION OF THE LATER BEING BORN ABT 1580, B.31 JUL 1947 SG, E.23 JAN 1947 SG AND DEATH PLACE AND DATE CONFIRMED. AFN 8LBZ-V1 (S.P. 18 MAY 1966 MT) AND ID # GG8T-DR (S.P. 12 MAY 1966) ARE THE SAME PERSON. BORN ABOUT 1542?. OF WRINGTON, SOMMERSET, England OR AMESBURY, WILTSHIRE, England. !Parents: Early Carpenter books has him the son of William & Abigail Carpenter. However this is wrong. Parentage corrected by wills found in England. end notes. Bruce E. Carpenter wrote: > > I am finding some interesting data in Oxford > University documents and thought the following might > be of use to Providence Carpenters. > > "Richard Carpenter,pleb., b. 1575, M. 28 May 1592 age > 15, B.A. 19 Feb. 159 5/6; Corn. 1596, res.30 June 1606; > M.A. 7 Nov. 1598, B.D. 25 June 1611, D.D. 10 Feb. 161 6/7; ?V. of > Cullompton 12 Feb 1601, res. 1626, Eccl. Ant. i. 114; R.of > Sherwill 1605, Georgeham 1606, Loxhore 1611, d. Loxhore 18 Dec.1627 > age 52; m. Susanna d. of John Trevelyan of Nettlecombe, Som.; Travelyan > Papers (Camden Soc.) iii.p. XXV. (battels at that time); Drake 246; Reg. 16 > July > 1602 'dimidia pars pecuniarum mutuo concessa est M. Carpenter quas > expensurus esset in novis > extruendis musaeis supra cameram suam, quae inferiori parti > sacelli ex adverso oppononitur; eadem prorsus conditione > et lege qua antea 13o die Martii pecuniae mutuo datae sunt > maistris Baskerville et Chambers aedificaturis"; Clark i. 213 > Nat. Biog. > > Sorry for the abbreviations and Latin. The data is > from the REGISTER OF EXETER COLLEGE. There were other Carpenters, > and Batts, associated with this Oxford University College. > > Sincerely, > Bruce 'de Rehoboth' Carpenter

Dear Bruce, Sarum was the old walled fortress town that is now in ruins and outside the present day city of Salisbury. Salisbury grew up around the Salisbury Cathedral. Captain William Carpenter of Rehoboth, MA (b. 1605) was a well educated man with influences. He was friends with Gov. William Bradford who married his cousin. His extended family had intermarried with the Batt family at least twice in the immediate generation. His family owned land in England and had money to secure land and influences in New England. As we discussed before, William had enough influence to use his influence to "buy" the current area of Rehoboth. NOTES: OTHER INFORMATION INCLUDES BUT NOT LIMITED TO: DEPUTY TO THE GENERAL COURT FROM WEYMOUTH IN 1641-43 AND FROM REHOBOTH IN IN 1645, CONSTABLE IN 1641. HE WAS A CLOSE FRIEND TO GOVERNOR WILLIAM BRADFORD, WHO MARRIED HIS COUSIN ALICE CARPENTER. HE BOUGHT THE AREA NOW CALLED REHOBOTH (8 MILES SQUARE) FROM THE INDIANS. PROPRIETORS' CLERK FROM 1643-1649. CONTRIBUTED TOWARD THE EXPENSES OF KING PHILLIPS WAR. IN 1647, A SELECTMAN FROM REHOBOTH. HE WAS A CAPTAIN OF MILITIA. Clarification: "HE BOUGHT" - William was a member of the General Court of Plymouth and used his influence to make a purchase of this land. The Court conceded to all that he asked as appears from an extract from the Proprietor's Record (See Vol. I., page 1). The Court appointed Mr. John Brown and Mr. Edward Winslow to purchase the aforesaid tract of land of Asamacum, the chief sachem and owner thereof ... See page 38 in the Carpenter Memorial. The Will of Captain William Carpenter, in case you missed it, was posted by Donna Tivner. Please note the books left to his wife and one daughter will get books upon the decease of a brother. This indicates that the family was well educated and well read. For the females also (unusual at this time) to be educated and well read is notable. SEE WILL POSTED BELOW. Not bad for William Carpenter of Rehoboth, MA who is listed as a "Farmer." I hope this answered your questions, Sincerely, John R. Carpenter La Mesa, CA !WILL: Will of William Carpenter, 1659 Posted by Donna Tivener <dtivener@richnet.net> on Thu, 27 May 1999 WILLIAM OF REHOBOTH'S 1659 WILL The William Carpenter will reads, in part: "In the name of God, Amen, I, William Carpenter, Sr. of Rehoboth, being in perfect memory at present, blessed be God, do make my last Will and Testament. --I give to my son, John Carpenter, one mare, being the old white mare, and my best doublet and my handsomest coat, and new cloth to make him a pair of breeches. ---I give unto his son beside twenty shillings to buy him a calf. ---I give to him Mr. Ainsworth's upon the five books of Moses, Canticles and Psalms, and Mr. Brightman on Revelations, and my concordance. --I five to my son William, the young grey mare of two yearling colts, and five pounds in sugar or wampum, and my (passett) coate, and one suit of apparel, and Mr. Mahew on the four Evangelists upon the 14 chapters of Saule (or Paul). --I give him my Latin books, my greek grammar and Hebrew grammar and my Greek Lexicon, and I give him ten (or 5) pounds of cotton wool; and his son, John twenty shillings to be paid to him a year after my decease. --I give to my son, Jospeh two of the youngest steers of the four that were brought to work this year; and to his son, Joseph twenty shillings, and to Joseph I give one of Perkins' works and of Barrows upon private contentions called harts (cq) divisions. __I give to Jospeh a suit of better cloths to be given at his mother's discretion, and I give him a green serge coat and ten pounds of cotton wool, and a match lock gun. --I give to my daughter, Hannah half of my Common at Pawtuxet, and one third of my impropriate, only my meadow excepted, and my home lot, and that land I had laid out to cousin that I had for the low lands cousin Carpenter that I had by. (NOTE: dmt. No doubt refers to exchange of lands or land purchased of Joseph Carpenter, son of William Carpenter of Providence, Rhode Island.) --I give to my daughter Hannah one yearling heifer, also I give to Hannah her Bible, the practice of piety and the volume of prayer, and one ewe at the island, and twenty pounds of cotton, and six pounds of wool. --I give to my son Abiah (Abijah) the rest of my lands at Pawtuxet, and the meadow, after my decease; and his mother and Samuel to help him to build a house because Samuelhas a house built already. Only if my wife marry again, she shall have nothing to do with that land. --I give to my daughter, Abigail, one young mare, a three-year old bay mare, and if the mare should be dead at Spring, she shall have fifteen pounds in her stead, within one year after my decease. --I give twenty shillings to John Titus, his for to be paid a year after my decease; but if John Titus coems to dwell and take the house and land, which I sent him word he sall have if he come. then he shall have the land and not the money. --I give to my son Samuel one-half my land which I now live upon (and two pens of the young sheep, two cows, one bull) and he now lives on, with his furniture and half of my working tools; and Abish, the other half; and Samuel to have on book of Psalms, a Dictionary, and a Gun and my best coat, and one ewe at the island. --I give to my wife the other half of the land I now live upon, for her life time, and the use of my household stuff, carts and plows, if she marry not. But if she marry, she shall have a third part in my land and Samuel, the rest; and she shall have four oxen, one mare, which is called the black mare, four cows, one bed and its furniture, one pot, one good kettle and one little, and one skillet, and half of the pewter her lifetime, and then to give it up to the chidlren; and if she does not marry, to have the rest of my land at Pawtuxet, which remaineth, that which is left which is not given to my daughter, Hannah, and that which is left Abiah to have after my wife's decease; if she marry, to have it the next year after. --I give to my wife those books of Perkins, called Christ's Sermon on the Mount, the good Bible, Burroughs Jewell of Contntment, the oil of Gladness. I give her two hundred of sugar. __My wife is to have the room I now lodge in, and the chamber over, and to have liverty to come tothe fire and do her occasions, and she shall have the meadow that was made in John Titus lot because it is near, and she is to have a way to the swamp through the lot. And if John Titus come, Samuel is to have two acares out of hislot that is not broken up, and my wife is to have the rest; and Samuel to break it up for her. Also, I give to my wife (corn) towards housekeeping and the cloth in the house toward the clothing herself, and children with her, and twine that she hath to serve towards housekeeping, and three acres at the Island. --I give to Abiah a yearling mare colt, being the white mare's colt, and one yearling heifer, and Dr. Jarvi's Catechism, and Helens History of the World, and one ewe...about my wife's occasion when she was at the Island. (Abiah was to care for her when at the Island.) --When the legacies are paid out, the remainder is to be disposed among the children at the discretion of my wife and the overseers. Memorandum:---If my son Titus come and do possess the land, I said he should have, as namely the house land and orchard, and corn. Joseph had the land in two divisions, the fresh meadow, salt one last laid out, and not the fresh I fenced in, and to pay the reates for, for that he do agree, and if he go from it, he shall not sell it to any but his brother Samuel or his mother. --This is my Will and Testament, to which I set my hand. William Carpenter of Rehoboth, the day and year before written. --I make my wife the Executrix, and my Overseer to be Richard Bowen, and John Allen is to be helpful to my wife, and I appoint my brother Carpenter to help, and to have ten shillings for their pains.." The above Will of William Carpenter of Rehoboth, Mass. was attested on April 21, 1659. The original copy at the Plymouth, Mass. courthouse can still be read, but with difficulty. The Transcript of the 1659 Will of William Carpenter of Rehoboth, Mass. is from a clipping funished by Capt. W.N. Mansfield of Livermore, Ca. of a 1963 story in the Taunton Mass. Gazette. "Carpenter Family New-Journal" end Bruce E. Carpenter wrote: > > Thanks for Batt data. I found FTM's English Origins CD on my shelf > and happily various Batt wills are transcribed.The brother of > the Oxford John Batt, Richard Batt,also had a daughter Mary, named > in a 1600s will. > > I don't exactly understand the expression 'Sarum'.Does this > mean Salisbury? Has the father(William) of the Robert Carpenter, who was the > grandfather of Rehoboth William, been associated with a town? > > I was doing some reading on late 1500s Wilts. The whole area > was hit with economic depression.People with previous education and money > found > themselves on the street. Rehoboth William shows up in MA with boxes of > books. > Odd for a house carpenter. Sheep rancher Robert might have been > an educated man. > > The lady who wrote my History of Wiltshire (Oxford Univ. Press) can't say > enough about the Devizes Batts. For a while they ran the town. > > BC

Here's the full list of people who were legally notified of the probating of the will of my GGGgrandma, (Mrs. John) Mary O'CONNOR CARPENTER (b. ca. 1803 in Dublin, Ireland; died November 1, 1884; Wallace E. Burdick, executor): James CARPENTER, De Ruyter, NY (also given elsewhere as Dewer(?), Kingsbury Co., Dakota)--my GGgrandpa Samuel D. CARPENTER, De Ruyter, NY Adelia GARDNER, Sheds Corners, NY (also given elsewhere as De Ruyter) Alvin Foster, Pratts Hollow, NY (also given elsewhere in 1887 as Victory, NY) Ward Foster, Munnsville, NY (also given elsewhere as Stockbridge) George Foster, Munnsville, NY (also given elsewhere as Stockbridge) Adaline Brown, Munnsville, NY (also given elsewhere as Smithfield) Helen Gregg, Community, NY (also given elsewhere as Oneida Castle, Oneida Co.) Albert Foster, Port Byron, NY (also given elsewhere as Cayuga Co.) Andalusia Brown, Munnsville, NY (also given elsewhere as Stockbridge) Mary Englebright, Oshkosh, Wis. (also given as Mary Carpenter) Riley H. Breed, Dayton, Ohio Robie (or Roby) Thurber, Cambridege, NY (also given as Washington Co.) Mary Fuller, Cambridge, NY (also given as Washington Co.) Charles W. Sweet, Lawrence, Mich. I know the following about these folks: --Samuel D. CARPENTER is John and Mary's son (twice wounded in the Civil War) --John and Mary's son, James, married Eliza(beth?) Jane SWEET, which helps explain Charles SWEET. James took his family to the Decatur/Lawrence area of MI in about 1860, and James' eldest son, Francis Adelbert, remained when the rest of the family went to MN. Samuel spent some time with his brother, Giles, at Lawrence, MI, married there, then went to Wisc. for a couple of years, then returned to De Ruyter, where he enlisted in the 157th, was twice wounded, and farmed and looked after John and Mary in their old age. John and Sam had adjacent farms on Carpenter Road near De Ruyter and Sheds (Corners) --Adelia GARDNER is John and Mary's daughter. Who are these other people? I have names of John and Mary's kids and James' kids. If anyone has any information to share about any of these folks, I'd really appreciate it. (John and Mary CARPENTER had these children, not in this order: Clarinda, Robert, Susannah, James, Lucinda, Harmon, Giles, Samuel D., Adelia, Elizabeth, and possibly an older daughter we don't have in our records.) Thanks in advance! George --- George R. Carpenter carpgl@ismi.net

----- > >-Jerry I have a Nicholas Carpenter born 30 Jan 1794 In Marsellis France. " >Nothing is known of parents , but it it is probable that his father was >English or of English stock. The name has been spelled in its present form, >as far as known, which would indicate that it is not of French origin. >At a early age Nicholas Carpenter was placed with a brother in the bakery >on a man-of-war, to learn the trade. The brother was drowned, and Nicholas >left the ship on its arrival in the harbor of Quebec making his way at once >into the rural district on the southern border of the Province of Queebec. >He later was employed by farmers in Stanstead, and later in Derby, VT,and >continued in that occupation all his active life. For a period of twenty-two >years he had charge of the large farms of Hon. Pontus Baxter > He later purchased land and became a large landholder in Troy and >Westmore,Vt. He lived in the later town 5 January 1878 near near the close >of his 84 th year, His family was Hannah Libby >daughter of Joshua & Hannah rant Libbey, was of English decent. She died at >the age of 91 yrs. They had 9 sons & 9 daughters. I will load later in FTW and if any interested will fwd >

My Exeter College data may have somes problems with abbreviations and 'removed' meant 'moved' in the sense moving your residence. Abbreviations DEV and SAR need more clarification. DEV should mean co. Devon. BC

The following are two items, as they appear, from the REGISTER OF EXETER COLLEGE, one of the various residential colleges of Oxford University. “John Batt, Dev. 1567, vac. By absense 1579; B.A. 24 Nov. 1570, M.A. 27 June 1573. Robert Carpenter, Sar. 1568, removed 30 June 1579 for absense in Ireland; B.A. 22 Nov. 1571, M.A. 18 June 1575; 10 Nov.1575 allowed leave of absence for 4 years to teach in a school or the like, because of his poverty.” The expression “because of his poverty” has to be seen in historical context, of a widespread economic downturn in Wilts, resulting in the financial ruin and deprivation of many of the best area families. John Batt and Robert Carpenter appear side by side in other Exeter documents suggestion friendship association in a social setting of a limited number of scholars. During a bad year of the plague Robert Carpenter ran Exeter College. The identity of a John Batt from Devizes is well established in Wiltshire history. He was a member of a very prominent cloth making family whose members were mayor of the city. Their tax rates were at the same rate as local gentry (A History of Wiltshire, Oxford, vol.10, pp. 253-255). There must be some connection between the Devises Batts and the Salisbury Batts. Someone might help with this. The interesting thing here is Robert Carpenter from Sarum, whose dates exactly match the traditional Robert Carpenter, grandfather of Rehoboth William Carpenter. An Oxford M.A. and sheep farming are by no means incompatible in late 1500s Wilts. Remember that Rehoboth William goes to America with a good quantity of books. Odd for a house carpenter. Along with Robert at Exeter was another Carpenter, but no given name. He seems to have been an undergraduate. Providence Williams father was also an Exeter man, at a later date. His identity is without question because Susan Traveleyan is mentioned. He had four different degrees, including a doctorate! This Richard Carpenter was a minister among other things. See my “For Prov. Carpenters” letter. If this Robert Carpenter were the one from our Rehoboth line, it would be interesting if we knew more about his father. Where was he thought to live? Sincerely, Bruce Carpenter

Can anyone translate this ? >I am finding some interesting data in Oxford >University documents and thought the following might >be of use to Providence Carpenters. > >"Richard Carpenter,pleb., b. 1575, M. 28 May 1592 age >15, B.A. 19 Feb. 159 5/6; Corn. 1596, res.30 June 1606; >M.A. 7 Nov. 1598, B.D. 25 June 1611, D.D. 10 Feb. 161 6/7; ?V. of >Cullompton 12 Feb 1601, res. 1626, Eccl. Ant. i. 114; R.of >Sherwill 1605, Georgeham 1606, Loxhore 1611, d. Loxhore 18 Dec.1627 >age 52; m. Susanna d. of John Trevelyan of Nettlecombe, Som.; Travelyan >Papers (Camden Soc.) iii.p. XXV. (battels at that time); Drake 246; Reg. 16 >July >1602 'dimidia pars pecuniarum mutuo concessa est M. Carpenter quas >expensurus esset in novis >extruendis musaeis supra cameram suam, quae inferiori parti >sacelli ex adverso oppononitur; eadem prorsus conditione >et lege qua antea 13o die Martii pecuniae mutuo datae sunt >maistris Baskerville et Chambers aedificaturis"; Clark i. 213 >Nat. Biog. > >Sorry for the abbreviations and Latin. The data is >from the REGISTER OF EXETER COLLEGE. There were other Carpenters, >and Batts, associated with this Oxford University College. > >Sincerely, >Bruce 'de Rehoboth' Carpenter > >

I am still trying to find some connection to Peter Carpenter b. 1802 probably in PA, but maybe in Ohio. Peter m. Catherine Dupler in Hocking Co., Ohio 20Apr1826. Peter and Catherine were the parents of my ggm Phoebe Ann Carpenter m. James Henry Wing in Vinton Co., Ohio 5Aug1864. Recently I found a David Carpenter b. 1809 m. Maria Graham in Vinton Co., Ohio 14Nov1833. David was the son of Joseph Carpenter m. Sarah Graham 27Feb1806 in Athens, Ohio. Can anybody tell me anything about Joseph and Sarah or David and Maria and whether they might be connected to Peter? Thanks for any help. Larry Wing

If you have CARPENTERs (or others) who may have been married in Illinois before 1901, check this one out! I found out that Abraham Lincoln married Mary Todd. . . just in case you were wondering. Tons of CARPENTERs, though. Would that we had such an index so handy for NY. (DO we?) http://www.sos.state.il.us/depts/archives/marriage.html George --- George R. Carpenter Pinckney, Michigan carpgl@ismi.net

I am finding some interesting data in Oxford University documents and thought the following might be of use to Providence Carpenters. "Richard Carpenter,pleb., b. 1575, M. 28 May 1592 age 15, B.A. 19 Feb. 159 5/6; Corn. 1596, res.30 June 1606; M.A. 7 Nov. 1598, B.D. 25 June 1611, D.D. 10 Feb. 161 6/7; ?V. of Cullompton 12 Feb 1601, res. 1626, Eccl. Ant. i. 114; R.of Sherwill 1605, Georgeham 1606, Loxhore 1611, d. Loxhore 18 Dec.1627 age 52; m. Susanna d. of John Trevelyan of Nettlecombe, Som.; Travelyan Papers (Camden Soc.) iii.p. XXV. (battels at that time); Drake 246; Reg. 16 July 1602 'dimidia pars pecuniarum mutuo concessa est M. Carpenter quas expensurus esset in novis extruendis musaeis supra cameram suam, quae inferiori parti sacelli ex adverso oppononitur; eadem prorsus conditione et lege qua antea 13o die Martii pecuniae mutuo datae sunt maistris Baskerville et Chambers aedificaturis"; Clark i. 213 Nat. Biog. Sorry for the abbreviations and Latin. The data is from the REGISTER OF EXETER COLLEGE. There were other Carpenters, and Batts, associated with this Oxford University College. Sincerely, Bruce 'de Rehoboth' Carpenter

---- > >REPLY TO: L. JOHNSON LJJ52@AOL.COM > >Subject: CARPENTER, PATRICK >Kings NY > >I am looking for information on Patrick Carpenter and his family. I know he was born about 1858 in Ireland immigrating to the U.S. in about 1870. He married in about 1881 to Mary (maiden name unknown) They had a son James Joseph Carpenter in 1882 and he died about 1933 I believe all are buried in Holly Cross Cemetary. > >

Dear Bruce, Joseph Hatten Carpenter was born in England of a fairly well to do family. After traveling abroad for a time, he settled in Utah after being converted to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. After becoming interested in Genealogy, he went back to England and collected thousands of names over several years in research from England and France. He was a writer and contributed to the Utah Genealogical Magazine for many years. He published no major works on Carpenter genealogy. His ancestral line comes from the Somerset Carpenters then Gloucestershire before attaching to the the Carpenters of Homme. INDIVIDUAL DATA RIN:49485 - ------------------------------------------------- Name:Joseph Hatten CARPENTER Sex:M ID No:26V3-LN Birth: 4 Apr 1861 Place:Devonport,Devonshire,England Chr: Place: Marr:12 Jun 1889 Spouse:Matilda Sophia ALDER-49487 Marr:30 Sep 1920 Spouse:Lydia Euphrosine SCHRAMM-49486 Marr: Spouse: Death:10 Dec 1964 Place:Manti,Sanpete,UT Burial:14 Dec 1964 Place:Manti,Sanpete,UT Father:Robert Wright CARPENTER R-49477 Mother:Elizabeth Link HATTEN-49480 AND As noted in my 10 Oct. 1999 E-MAIL message ... Under "SOURCE:" is ... J. Hatton Carpenter's "The Carpenter Family" in The Utah Genealogical Magazine, Vol. 16, pp. 60-70. Joseph Hatton Carpenter spent many years in England and France carrying around notebooks. Every where he found Carpenters in England and France recorded he wrote them down in one of those notebooks. He collected some estimated 10 to 15,000 names. Many of these have been entered into the IGI. (Joseph H. Carpenter is my RIN 49491.) After Joseph Hatten Carpenter's death on 10 Dec 1964, he was not quite 103 years old, his notebooks and records were given to various descendants. Some of these notebooks have been microfilmed and some have been lost. I have been lucky enough to photocopy some of these notebooks. The ones that I have contain names, dates and places where he got the data. While Joseph H. Carpenter did not make the association with Maurice in France and England to my knowledge, the data was there in his records. If you are interested in gathering more data on Joseph H. Carpenter see: BOOK: Jenson, Andrew. Latter-day Saint Biographical Encyclopedia: A Compilation of Biographical Sketches of Prominent Men and Women in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. 4 vols. A. Jenson History Company and Deseret News, 1901-36. Vol. 2. Carpenter, Joseph Hatten Page 561. (In this it describes Joseph and his brother George as ...) ... These two brothers are the representatives in the United States of the Somerset [p.563] County Carpenters of England, who were yeoman and lived since 1687 at Bradford-on-Tyne, near Taunton, Sommerset, and were a younger branch of the Hereford Carpenters, who lived at Dilwyn, Hereford, before 1300 A. D., and whose ancestor fought in the crusades for the recovery of the Holy Land from the Saracens and Turks, as their armorial bearings and crest will indicate. end note section. I hope this answers your question. Sincerely, John R. Carpenter La Mesa, CA Bruce E. Carpenter wrote: > > John: > Excuse my ignorence, but who > was Joseph H. Carpenter? > Sincerely, > BC

John: Excuse my ignorence, but who was Joseph H. Carpenter? Sincerely, BC

Dear Bruce, I can not change what I found in Joseph H. Carpenters notebooks. It was very clear that Maurice of Ypres born about 1280 had the following children in De Grand Pont: Maurice le CARPENTIER-1407 Abt 1275/1280 Ypres,West Vlaanderen,F,Belgium --SPOUSE-- MRIN:511 (not listed) --CHILDREN-- 3Pierre le CARPENTIER-13035 4John OR Jean CARPENTIER le-85 5Renaud OR Richard CARPENTIER-13037 6-Alix OR A CARPENTIER le-13056 7-Mehant le CARPENTIER-13034 The following children are temporary connections only to Maurice: --CHILDREN-- 1-Stephen CARPENTER-16313 2-Henry CARPENTER-36558 Only John or Jean and Richard or Renaud are found in the English Gloucester record with the father as Maurice Carpender, Gent. of Gloucester. The earliest Maurice could have been born is about 1275 instead of 1280. This would put his youngest son born about 1293 at the earliest. I have about 1300 in my data. The data I have from Joseph H. Carpenter indicates Selles Cambrai, Du Nord, France as the earliest area. Siger and his brother Godefroy became the sires of de Daniel and d'Avesnes-les-Obert, Du Nord, France. Some of Godefroy's descendants became Lords of Daniel et Avesnes les Aubert, Du Nord, France. One of his sons (or less likey Siger's) named Jean le Carpentier born about 1250 was noted as a Lord of Daniel and later of Tillent Lambert,Belgium then part of Flanders. That Jean le Carpentier is another one of those stumbling blocks I mentioned. He has three children listed in Joseph H. Carpenter's notebook. Unfortunately, that photo copy (like many) is blurred and hard to read. I believe it indicates M?ur???, Ed???d?? and J???n or Maurice, Edward and John. I'm sorry that Pierre of Maurice does not seem to fit the Ypres one. As a side note I have some of Pierre le Carpentier's descendants through Anselot (known as from near Cambrai) as the Lords of Maire near Brillon, Du Nord, France. Jean le CARPENTIER b. abt 1400/1404 became the Mayor of Dinant,Namur,Belgium and was Lord of Maire,near Brillon,DN,France. Then Messenes,W. Flanders,Belgium comes for several generations going into the early 1500s. I agree that Maurice is a critical link in my data. The Maurice in France and the Maurice in England probably are the same ones, but they have not been proven as the same person. It is just speculation. A lot more work needs to be done in the French record research for those Carpentiers of the Du Nord region of present day France. Keep on checking those records. You may find a gold mine of information on the early Carpenters that will change everything and rewrite the book! A Rehoboth cousin, John R. Carpenter La Mesa, CA USA PS Below comes the introduction to the Sellers 1909 book. You can see the similar places mentioned above in the below. !BOOK: GENEALOGY OF THE DE CARPENTIER FAMILY OF HOLLAND BY EDWIN JAQUETT SELLERS. Printed in PHILADELPHIA, PA in 1909. EDITION LIMITED TO ONE HUNDRED COPIES. PRESS OF ALLEN, LAMB & SCOTT PHILADELPHIA. INTRODUCTION Although the family (CARPENTIER) treated of In this work has not been definately traced beyond Pierre de Carpentier of Messen, Flanders yet its origin - appears in "Histore dc Cambray et du Cambresis, par Jean le Carpentier," published at Leyden, 1664, vol. II, page 369: "Since the year 1166 the family is known in the archives of the Abbey of Vauchelles to which much assistance was rendered by Barthelemy and Renaud Carpentier issue of Roger, Sire de Gouy, as we learn from the Tournament of Auchin in the year 1096. Siger Carpentier and Godefroy, descended from the said Renaud, were held in high esteem in Cambray and adjacent parts about 1200. Siger gave, among others, the tithes of Attiche to the Abbey of Cisoing in the year 1265, as can be seen in the archives of that place. He was Seigneur de Vannes and one of the most eminent knights of his time and laid the foundation for a fair posterity, which settled in French Flanders, through his marriage with Berthe Dame en Arquenghem by whom he had a son named Anseau whose descendants maintained themselves with glory and fame as late as the year 1400, when some of them, because of disfavor, were obliged to retreat to France, where, to the present day, they keep up the rank of their ancient nobility and are Seigneurs de Berthier, de Crecy, de Machy, de Ratilly de Marigny, etc. "This House possessed in the Netherlands, where the main branch has been extinct for nearly a century, the Seigneuries de Vannes, d' Avesnes lez Obert, du petit Ribecourt, de Maire, de Hamarree, de Tilloy, de Waignou, d'Aumont, de Flechinet, etc. It gave a bishop to Chartres and an abbot to St. Vaast in Arras; an almoner to Robert, Count de Flanders; governors to Therouane, grand bailiffs to Courtray; counsellors and gallant captains for armies to emperors, kings and princes, and even governors to newly discovered and conquered countires of the United Netherlands, etc. It has distinguished itself through brilliant alliances by marriage with many noble houses. Some of the descendants of the aforesaid Godefroy de Carpentier, Sire de Daniel and d'Avesnes-les-Obert (benefactor of the Abbey of Vaucelles according to a title of the year 1280, and brother of the aforesaid Siger, Sire de Vannes), left for England and Holland, where they bear different arms, although descended from the same house which recognizes as its originators of the ancient and illustrious Seigneurs de Gouy or Goy, who are so renowned in the archieves of the abbies of St. Vaast d'Arras, Mont St. Elloy, Honnecourt, Mont St. Martin, etc., since the year 1036, which is mentioned by Andre Du Chesne in his genealogical works. "Of this house was Jean le Carpentier, Treasurer- General of the Emperor Charles the Fifth, who by Marguerite de Langhe, daughter of Jean, had a daughter named Jeanne le Carpentier, who married Matthieu de Keinooghen, son of Jean Escuyer and Barbe d'Espelghem, who was father of Marie de Keynooghem married to Adrian van der Goes." end Bruce E. Carpenter wrote: > > John: > Let me clarify my thoughts on Maurice Carpenter. He is a crucial link in > your early Carpentier history from the continent > to England. You have maintained that evidence exists establishing that Ypres > Maurice had a son Pierre. Recently I found historical records of Ypres > Carpenters and one was a Pierre. An immediate conclusion I came to was this > was Pierre the son of Maurice. The other Pierre you identify lived many > miles away from Ypres. The Pierre from the new data gives a much more > probable son for Maurice. The evidence that indicates Ypres Pierre was a > grown man in 1300, would then put Maurice’s birth a good many years earlier > than you thought. Consequently I wrote to you asking for the documentary > source of your Ypres Pierre and father Maurice, since I only have your word > that a Maurice lived in Ypres and had a son Pierre. > My own reading of my data on the Flemish Carpenters (I had hoped to present > this at a later date), seemed clearly to show that the main family was > situated in Douai near Arras, and that the Ypres Carpenters were a small > family group, thus lessening the chances of more than one Pierre. This was > actually the reason for my enthusiasm over the Ypres Carpenter data. It > seems doubtful there was more than one Pierre. > > Sincerely, > Bruce E. Carpenter

John: Let me clarify my thoughts on Maurice Carpenter. He is a crucial link in your early Carpentier history from the continent to England. You have maintained that evidence exists establishing that Ypres Maurice had a son Pierre. Recently I found historical records of Ypres Carpenters and one was a Pierre. An immediate conclusion I came to was this was Pierre the son of Maurice. The other Pierre you identify lived many miles away from Ypres. The Pierre from the new data gives a much more probable son for Maurice. The evidence that indicates Ypres Pierre was a grown man in 1300, would then put Maurice’s birth a good many years earlier than you thought. Consequently I wrote to you asking for the documentary source of your Ypres Pierre and father Maurice, since I only have your word that a Maurice lived in Ypres and had a son Pierre. My own reading of my data on the Flemish Carpenters (I had hoped to present this at a later date), seemed clearly to show that the main family was situated in Douai near Arras, and that the Ypres Carpenters were a small family group, thus lessening the chances of more than one Pierre. This was actually the reason for my enthusiasm over the Ypres Carpenter data. It seems doubtful there was more than one Pierre. Sincerely, Bruce E. Carpenter

For an idea of the world the London Carpenters inhabited in the 1300s, no better source are the works of the father of English literature Geoffrey Chaucer (1340?-1400). The two families shared a good deal more than the coincidence of time and place, there is good evidence that the Chaucers and the Carpenters associated and knew each one-another. The Chaucers were a vintner family, but in the retail side of the business; and this coupled with their dealings in leather, provided the family wealth. This translated into education and court appointments for poet Geoffrey, which enabled the poet to compose and popularize his writings at court. Thus we have the Canterbury Tales and other works that are now the very foundation of our English language culture. Geoffrey Chaucer’s step-grandfather and kinsman Richard Chaucer (d. 1349) appears in a good many documents with Rodger le Carpenter, a premier merchant of London in his day. They were asked to provide money to the crown together and were often summoned to court together. Bruce E. Carpenter

Dear Bruce, I do not wish to start mud slinging over disagreements over data. You have sent me several messages requesting information or asking questions and asking me to let you help. Up to recently, I have been content to sit back and watch your findings. After your request to let you help, I have encouraged you to put your research data together for the benefit of all, even though you indicated you had no real plans for a book. I will endeavor to point out the noted problems then the main questions you have asked me to answer. This is a long message with your previous messages below. >From your original message (**) through your last three [ 1), 2) & 3) ] you show a pattern of speculation becoming a full statement without support either circumstantial or fact. As John Chandler would say, "circular reasoning." I have made my share of mistakes in the same manner. You indicate in message 1) that you found Carpenters in Ypres involved in the cloth trade. "Lippin and Piere." You speculate that "if a Ypres Carpentier (Maurice) shows up in England he should be a merchant on business." Your "if" indicates a possibility or theory. You later cite where you got this revelant data in message 3). In message 2) you have noticed that I have a son of Maurice is named Pierre. You speculate, "My data kind of suggests who my Piere was i.e. Maurice's son. Seems to me Maurice was a cloth merchant." You associate local with occupation and similarity of names as possible relations. You do well qualifying your speculation with "kinda of suggests" and "Seems to me." In message 3) you go to the statement that Maurice's son, Jean Le Carpentier born in France about 1304 (I have about 1303/1305 de Grand Pont,Du Nord,France) "can be demonstrated to be wholly implausible." Then you indicate that there was a Carpenter (Carpentier) family who resided in Ypres and you later cite your source. "A son of Maurice Carpenter, Pierre Carpentier was a textile manufacturer at the time (drapier a Ypres)." You now have implied that you have found a connection between Maurice and Pierre who was a "drapier." If so, please cite. You have demonstrated in message 1) a "Lippin and Piere" involved in the cloth business in Ypres but speculate Maurice was involved in the same business. You have associated the son of Maurice named Pierre with the Piere in the record you found and made them the same person. Then you declare that, "Pierre had to be a grown man in order to manage a family and a textile making business. A safe estimate puts his birth at least when the birth of Maurice was in 1280." You then declare Maurice should have been born earlier circa 1250 "or much earlier." You do not allow for the possibility of other people named Pierre or Piere (Pierre was a common name) to be in your theory but assume the relation of Piere to be a grown man thus Maurice had to be older. Now to answer some of your questions in message 3) and 2). Lastly in message 3) you state "Why would a fifty-year-old, or much older man, be doing living in England in 1300, with a new family, while the rest of his old family stayed behind?" Please notice that Maurice has gone from born about 1275/1280 in my records to your 1250 on the speculation noted above. >From the data (specifically from the notes) I sent you (and others) on Maurice is: !HISTORIC NOTE: After King Phillip III (who ruled from 1270 to 1285) was King Phillip IV (who ruled from 1285 to 1314). King Phillip IV, "The Fair" was a handsome man for his time and had much public support. He was able to put a French Archbishop in as Pope in 1305. Pope Clement V moved to Avignon, France in 1309 and carried out the King's orders, which included suppressing the Knights Templars. King Phillip IV was not as successful at war however, having lost against the English in 1294 and the Flanders (now Belgium) in 1302. He died in 1314. Much political confusion reigned over the next few years during King Louis X rule of 1314 to 1316 and King John I rule in 1316. By the time King Phillip V came to rule in 1316 much of the turmoil caused many Lords and Nobles to flee to England. This is the time period that Maurice left France for England (about 1314-1316) leaving his eldest child in France to continue the Lordship. King Phillip V ruled from 1316 to 1322 followed by Charles the IV who died without an heir in 1328. King Edward the First ruled in England at this time (early 1200s) and had been a supporter of King Phillip IV. He was succeeded by Edward the Second. 1314 was a bad year for both Kings, one died and Edward II lost his and his father's 18 year attempt to conquer Scotland at the disastrous Battle of Bannockburn. King Edward, the Third, laid claim to the French Crown after King Charles IV died without an heir when he became King in 1327. This began the so called Hundred year war with France (officially or actually lasting from 1337 to 1453 even though English troops were in Normandy in the early 1330s). end section from notes. Please notice the phrase, "Much political confusion reigned over the next few years during King Louis X rule of 1314 to 1316 and King John I rule in 1316. By the time King Phillip V came to rule in 1316 much of the turmoil caused many Lords and Nobles to flee to England." Then the next line, "This is the time period that Maurice left France for England (about 1314-1316) leaving his eldest child in France to continue the Lordship." Maurice was probably playing both ends of the "political game." He may have left France to watch over his "holdings" in England while his older son watched over the "holdings" in France. The Maurice in France and the Maurice in England are believed to be the same person, but this has not been positively proved. Now where did I get that a Maurice was born about 1280 in France and his family? Under "SOURCE:" is ... J. Hatton Carpenter's "The Carpenter Family" in The Utah Genealogical Magazine, Vol. 16, pp. 60-70. Joseph Hatton Carpenter spent many years in England and France carrying around notebooks. Every where he found Carpenters in England and France recorded he wrote them down in one of those notebooks. He collected some estimated 10 to 15,000 names. Many of these have been entered into the IGI. (Joseph H. Carpenter is my RIN 49491.) After Joseph Hatten Carpenter's death on 10 Dec 1964, he was not quite 103 years old, his notebooks and records were given to various descendants. Some of these notebooks have been microfilmed and some have been lost. I have been lucky enough to photocopy some of these notebooks. The ones that I have contain names, dates and places where he got the data. While Joseph H. Carpenter did not make the association with Maurice in France and England to my knowledge, the data was there in his records. If you are interested in gathering more data on Joseph H. Carpenter see: BOOK: Jenson, Andrew. Latter-day Saint Biographical Encyclopedia: A Compilation of Biographical Sketches of Prominent Men and Women in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. 4 vols. A. Jenson History Company and Deseret News, 1901-36. Vol. 2. Carpenter, Joseph Hatten Page 561. (In this it describes Joseph and his brother George as ...) ... These two brothers are the representatives in the United States of the Somerset [p.563] County Carpenters of England, who were yeoman and lived since 1687 at Bradford-on-Tyne, near Taunton, Sommerset, and were a younger branch of the Hereford Carpenters, who lived at Dilwyn, Hereford, before 1300 A. D., and whose ancestor fought in the crusades for the recovery of the Holy Land from the Saracens and Turks, as their armorial bearings and crest will indicate. end note section. I hope this covered the areas you requested. Please keep the research you find coming. It helps everyone on this part of the puzzle. I also encourage you to put your finding in an article or book format for future researchers. Sincerely, John R. Carpenter La Mesa, CA USA ******************************************************** 3) Subject: Maurice Carpenter Resent-Date: Fri, 8 Oct 1999 21:34:42 -0700 (PDT) Resent-From: CARPENTER-L@rootsweb.com Date: Fri, 8 Oct 1999 21:35:42 -0700 From: "Bruce E. Carpenter" <carp@whidbey.com> To: CARPENTER-L@rootsweb.com Maurice Carpenter, thought to be born in Ypres in abt. 1280, and the thought to be father of a Jean le Carpenter born abt. 1304 in France who is alleged to have died aft. at Dilwyn in Herefordshire, can be demonstrated to be wholly implausible. There was actually a Carpenter (Carpentier) family who resided in Ypres at the time.Their names, social status and professions are extant to be studied. A son of Maurice Carpenter, Pierre Carpentier was a textile manufacturer at the time (drapier a Ypres). A relative, Lippin le Carpentier, was a burgomaster of the city itself, an important position to be sure, and an indication of the prestige and wealth the Ypres Carpenters enjoyed. Pierre had to be a grown man in order to manage a family and a textile making business. A safe estimate puts his birth at least when the birth of Maurice was in 1280. In actuality Maurice had to be born at least near 1250, or much earlier. Another objection to Maurice is a common sense one. Why would a fifty-year-old, or much older man, be doing living in England in 1300, with a new family, while the rest of his old family stayed behind? The origins of the Maurice connection to Carpenter history began when in 1912 Edward Carpenter included a Maurice Carpenter or Carpendar from Gloucester in his book Samuel Carpenter and His Descendants. This Maurice comes from a notation in a Herald’s Visitation; he is just a name with no historical connections. I have never seen the name Maurice Carpenter in the hundreds of books that I have looked through. I am sure the two Maurices lived, but they are hardly the same people. My own source for Ypres Carpentiers is, Histoire Industrie Drapiere Flandre, Bruxelles, 1924. Bruce Carpenter 2) Subject: re. Pierre Carpentier Date: Fri, 8 Oct 1999 17:06:38 -0700 From: "Bruce E. Carpenter" <carp@whidbey.com> To: "John R. Carpenter" <jrcrin001@home.com> John: Sorry to bug you, but I saw that you had a French record of Maurice's son was a Pierre. My data kind of suggests who my Piere was i.e. Maurice's son. Seems to me Maurice was a cloth merchant. I would appreciate any information you have on what and where that French record was and is. BC 1) Subject: re. Pierre Carpentier Date: Fri, 8 Oct 1999 17:06:38 -0700 From: "Bruce E. Carpenter" <carp@whidbey.com> To: "John R. Carpenter" <jrcrin001@home.com> Bruce E. Carpenter wrote: > > John: > One more note before I forget. About Maurice. > I did find names of Carpenters in the cloth trade > in Ypres for 1300. You estimate Maurice's birth > 1275. One of Carpentiers was a burgher of the city (Lippin > le Carpentier) and the other (Piere le Carpentier) a cloth > manufacturer. Lippin was in the business also. > This says there was a substantial number of Carpenters > there because you wouldn't be a burgher or an important > manufacturer without a local family network in "le moyen age". > If a Ypres Carpentier (Maurice) shows up in England > he should be a merchant on business. > BC > > -----Original Message----- > From: John Carpenter <jrcrin001@home.com> > To: Bruce E. Carpenter <carp@whidbey.com> > Cc: CARPENTER-L@rootsweb.com <CARPENTER-L@rootsweb.com>; Tony & Gil > Carpenter <tony.c.@skynow.net> > Date: Friday, October 08, 1999 3:44 PM > Subject: Re: Important Discovery 2 > > >Dear Bruce, > > > >Late Medieval Genealogy is not an exact science. Much of the data has > >to be translated correctly and interpreted in that time's mores and > >foibles. Add to the variations of the "Victor" writing the history and > >it gets "fuzzy." > > > >The connection between William "the carpenter" DeMelun through Richard > >and Christina in London is not a proven fact. It is speculation or the > >best guess with the material on hand. > > > >Yes there are records saying X was the son of father of Y and related to > >Z. However the connection bringing Maurice from France into England HAS > >NOT BEEN PROVED. We have two Maurices with similar families on both > >sides of the English Channel. We surmise or guess they are the same > >person. > > > >A few generations beyond Maurice is another stumbling block. A few more > >beyond that is another. These speculations have always been in the > >notes and explanations I give to people. > > > >I fully expect to have people (like you and others) to present new data > >that will change how the puzzle looks. Every little bit helps. I truely > >would love to have dozens of Carpenter Researchers gathers bits and > >pieces on the early lines of the Carpenters. No doubt the puzzle > >contains stories and lines we have not even thought about yet! > > > >You are presenting helpful data to all Carpenters a piece at a time. If > >you write an article or book on your research, you compile that data > >into one source. > > > >That is the basic "why" of the Carpenter CD Project ... To gather > >together the various parts of the Carpenter Family with research data > >FOR FUTURE CARPENTER RESEARCHERS. This means the good, the bad and ugly > >parts of the family. In doing so, you help everyone! > > > >Amos Bugbee Carpenter did an amazing job with his Carpenter Memorial > >published in 1898. Does it contain mistakes and ommissions? YES! > >Carpenter Researchers are finding errors in some manner all the time. > > > >Will the Carpenter CD Project have mistakes? Damm right it will. > >Regardless of how much effort I and others put into it, there will still > >be mistakes. > > > >I encourage you to compile the data you are finding. State the facts > >you find and list your best guess how they fit. Remember to state your > >rational for future readers and researchers. They might use your facts > >but not the same interpretation because they have new data. > > > >If you follow this very basic formula - it can not but help others! > > > >I wish you the best of Luck in researching. I wish I had more time and > >money to do so. My main focus is the compiling of the Carpenter CD for > >the deadline at the end of the year 2000. I only have so much time and > >energy to go around. > > > >Until next time Cousin! > > > >John R. Carpenter > >La Mesa, CA USA > > > >** > >Bruce E. Carpenter wrote: > >> > >> John: > >> I have no real plans to write > >> a book, but as we are beginning to see > >> a really good one could be. That person > >> would need good French, good Latin, a good historical > >> education, money, time and good writing skills. > >> I hope it is becoming clear that this > >> story is more complicated, and more interesting, > >> than many people had realized. This is my only > >> object. I worry about you and your CD, John. It > >> pains me to think your Carpenter history pre 1450 > >> will be flawed. I have tried everything > >> short of hitting you over the head about it. Why don't > >> you let me help you? > >> BC > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: John Carpenter <jrcrin001@home.com> > >> To: Bruce E. Carpenter <carp@whidbey.com> > >> Cc: CARPENTER-L@rootsweb.com <CARPENTER-L@rootsweb.com> > >> Date: Friday, October 08, 1999 9:44 AM > >> Subject: Re: Important Discovery > >> > >> >Dear Bruce, > >> > > >> >When do you plan to have your book out? > >> > > >> >Curious, > >> > > >> >John R. Carpenter > >> >La Mesa, CA > >> > > >> >Bruce E. Carpenter wrote: > >> >> > >> >> Just found was a longish document listing > >> >> John Carpenter and Robert Carpenter, brothers of Town Clerk John, as > >> >> tennants > >> >> of Thomas, Duke of Gloucester in the reign of King Richard II. > >> >> To those of you Carpenters not yet bored by the subject, > >> >> this is an unbelievable find with all kinds of economic > >> >> details and political implications. Before I post it > >> >> please read again what I found and said about > >> >> Carpenters in the reign of Richard II re. the arrests of > >> >> carpenters and their allignment to Lancastrian interests, Warwickshire > >> >> Beauchamps and Duke of Gloucester Thomas. > >> >> BC