Dear John, I agree that one is primarily english and the other is from present day France. I was not aware of the Norman or Frankish origin of the "French" names. My name dictionary only listed Godefroy and Godefroid as variants of the French Godefrey. Thanks for the confirmation on "Salop" being the standard abbreviation for Shropshire. Sincerely, John R. Carpenter La Mesa, CA John F. Chandler wrote: > > John wrote: > > "Gaufrido Carpentari" is the latin version of Godwin (Godefroy or > > Godefroid in French) Carpenter. This means Godwin lived to a ripe old > > age and probably died there! > > It looks to me as if you are mixing up Godwin with Godfrey. These are > not the same name. For that matter, Godwin is primarily an English > name, while Godfrey is more Frankish or Norman. > > > I could not find "Sallop" or similar in the UK maps that I have. The > > change from 1272 to present has not reflected similar name or close > > variants for "Sallop.". > > Salop is the standard abbreviation for Shropshire. > > John Chandler

Dear Bruce, Thanks to Tony & Gill Carpenter in the UK, they found where "Sallop" is. "John - your query about Sallop - this is the local abbreviation for Shropshire which is situated on the English/Welsh borders. Hope this quick note helps! Gill & Tony" Thanks Tony & Gill! John R. Carpenter La Mesa, CA

Hello I was wondering if anyone had information on a Jacob Carpenter, I know he married Harriet, and they had many children, one of the sons they had was named John H. Carpenter, born May 2, 1879 in West Bromwich England. Any information would greatly be appreciated. Sissy

-----Original Message----- From: Robin Carpenter <ANALYTIX@valley.net> To: CARPENTER-L@rootsweb.com <CARPENTER-L@rootsweb.com> Date: Monday, October 25, 1999 11:30 AM Subject: SS Deaths Index I recently tried the Soc Sec deaths index, to find Joseph Griswold Carpenter's death. He was born 1894/5 in Michigan, and would have been alive at least until the mid-1960s. But the SS records do not show him. Can anyone here explain this? Would not the SS deaths include "everyone" whose working life extended into the 1930s (and who must by now be deceased)? Robin C. Hello Robin; If no death benefit was applied for/or paid then it is my understanding that the person would not appear in the SSDI. I could be wrong. Donald KEIFFER KEIFFER family genealogist searching: KEIFFER, ARMENTROUT, MULLINS, ROBINSON, MEADOWS, SCARBOROUGH GARFIELD, TEW, BILLINGS, JAUNDRELL BURCHFIEL, SHAYHAN, HOWELL, HINDMAN ROOT, WHITELEY, WALTERS, CARPENTER, PENNINGTON KEIFFER family website- www.flash.net/~dkeiffer e-mail- dkeiffer@flash.net Genealogy is my hobby........ THE MASTER GENEALOGIST is my program of choice.

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I recently tried the Soc Sec deaths index, to find Joseph Griswold Carpenter's death. He was born 1894/5 in Michigan, and would have been alive at least until the mid-1960s. But the SS records do not show him. Can anyone here explain this? Would not the SS deaths include "everyone" whose working life extended into the 1930s (and who must by now be deceased)? Robin C.

Wow! You just came the family and details for: INDIVIDUAL DATA RIN:49984 - --------------------------------------- Name:Benjamin CARPENTER Jr. Sex:M ID No: Birth:Abt 1787 Place:,Cayuga,NY Chr: Place: Marr:Abt 1810 Spouse:KING-49989 Father:Benjamin CARPENTER-41640 Mother:Elizabeth-49982 Notes ------------------------------------- !CENSUS: The 1830 U.S. Census of Livingston, Springwater county, NY indicates on Page 109 Benja. Carpenter, Jr. - 1 Free White Male age 30-40 and the following free white females; 1 under 5, 1 10-15, 1 30-40. end THANKS! John R. Carpenter La Mesa, CA MzCortez@aol.com wrote: > > http://www.rootsweb.com/~nyliving/database/springwater.htm > > Carpenters, Livingstone Co., NY > > Benjamin for Cayuga Co > Willis > Serrette S. > Joseph > Edwin > Luacian B > Betsy

Dear Bruce, I am excited! I think you may have found data on Godwin (b. abt 1100) Carpenter's retirement location. As you know many of the nobility went into monasteries for their old age. I knew that Godwin went into a Monastery in Normandy (Per the Edwin Sellers book). "Gaufrido Carpentari" is the latin version of Godwin (Godefroy or Godefroid in French) Carpenter. This means Godwin lived to a ripe old age and probably died there! "... Origins in Normandy, from the Calendar of Documents Preserved in France, vol. 1, 1189-1199. "Charter of Jordan de Champern confirming to the canons regular.... Gaufrido Carpentari." This was for the Priory of St. Stephen in the Diocese of Bayeux. He is no earlier than the patronymic Carpenters in Carpentier's Histoire, but is from a primary source I have seen myself. I don't accept anything I haven't seem myself. BC" INDIVIDUAL DATA RIN:16311 - ------------------------------------------------ Name:Godwin CARPENTER Sex:M ID No: Birth:Abt 1100 Place:of Melun,Seine-et-Marne,IDF,France Chr: Place:of,Suffolk,England Marr: Spouse:Unknown Father:William CARPENTER-28699 Mother: Notes ---------------------------------------------- !aka Godefroid or Godefroy in French, Godwin in Old English. !Per Raymond George Carpenter, American Genealogist: "In 1121 A.D. a Godwin Carpenter resided in Suffolk County, England." end partial notes. ********** I could not find "Sallop" or similar in the UK maps that I have. The change from 1272 to present has not reflected similar name or close variants for "Sallop.". ********** You indicate that the following Robert is the one you found circa 1253. Can you please show me the differences? Please provide how the data needs to be revised. I must have missed something, since I don't know what to revise. >INDIVIDUAL DATA RIN:16310 > >--------------------------------------------- > > Name:Robert CARPENTER Sex:M ID No: > > Birth:Abt 1167 Place:of,Suffolk,England > > Chr: Place: > > Marr: Spouse:Unknown > >Father:Ralph OR Raulf CARPENTER-16308 Mother: > >Notes ------------------------------------------ > >!Robert or Robert Le Carpenter found in Suffolk Curia Regis Rolls in > >1212. He is believed to be the descendant of William the Carpenter, b.abt 1042. > >Found in the IGI as born abt 1167 in Huntingdon,C,England. What do you think of the Antrobus deed circa 1250 AD below? > >!SEE: Calendar of Antrobus Deeds before 1625, edited by R. B. Pugh in > >1947. Published by by the Wiltshire Archaeology & Natural History > >Society Records Branch. Submitted by Peter Goodhugh, 1992 of the > >Amesbury Society in Amesbury, Wiltshire, England. Page I, undated circa 1250 in black pencil. > >"Gift with warranty by Christine daughter of John de Ambresber' in her widowhood to Robert Kade for his homage and service of a messuage and curtilage lying between the messuage of Robert the carpenter and . . ." Robert the carpenter acts as a witness also. > >Page 5, dated 9 July 1321 mentions "Carpenter Street (in vico > >carpentarii) in Great Ambri'." (ie Amesbury, Wiltshire, England) > >Page 6, dated 18 Mar 1323 mentions "Gift with warranty by Stephen le > >carpenter of Winterbourn' to Henry Curteis of Ambresbur' of a tenement with a curtilage which he had in the town of Ambresbur' . . ." (ie town of Amesbury). > > > >Robert Carpenter appears to be some type of Relative to Christine listed above circa 1250 AD. Daughter in law? or ? Christina and Christine is close, I wonder and the relationship? > > > >You list several Carpenters, can you supply the source for each? > > I am still looking forward to your clarifications on the questions I asked. I really would like to know more! Your cousin on the Rehoboth Carpenter line, John R. Carpenter La Mesa, CA ************************************************************ Bruce E. Carpenter wrote: > > Number two is our boy, but dates do not match my > Curia Regis Rolls dates. Need to revise. > Number three is a trade carpenter. Number > one is a real head scratcher. I have seen your listing that Bishop > Melun was a patronymic Carpenter. You should check this. The Bishop > lived well before surnames. He is really not a patronymic > Melun, I think. He lived in Paris. Unless he was Robert le Carpentier de > Melun. > My understanding is that his genealogy is a complete question. He taught in > Paris > for 40 odd years. Hence Robert de Melun. I think you need to boot him. > By the way, long ago I ran across what might be the earliest example > of patronymic use of Carpenter, in my opinion. Origins in Normandy, from > the Calendar of Documents Preserved in France, vol. 1, 1189-1199. > "Charter of Jordan de Champern confirming to the canons regular.... Gaufrido > Carpentari." > This was for the Priory of St. Stephen in the Diocese of Bayeux. > He is no earlier than the patronymic Carpenters in Carpentier's Histoire, > but is from a primary source I have seen myself. I don't accept anything > I haven't seem myself. > BC > -----Original Message----- > From: John Carpenter <jrcrin001@home.com> > To: CARPENTER-L@rootsweb.com <CARPENTER-L@rootsweb.com> > Date: Sunday, October 24, 1999 5:30 PM > Subject: Re: Suffolk Robert > > >Dear Bruce, > > > >I have 3 Robert Carpenters in that time period. > > > >INDIVIDUAL DATA RIN:28078 > >-------------------------------------------- > > Name:Robert CARPENTER Sex:M ID No: > > Birth:Abt 1150 Place:of,Hampshire,England > >Son of Robert Carpenter-200031 - Bishop Melun. > > > >INDIVIDUAL DATA RIN:16310 > >--------------------------------------------- > > Name:Robert CARPENTER Sex:M ID No: > > Birth:Abt 1167 Place:of,Suffolk,England > > Chr: Place: > > Marr: Spouse:Unknown > >Father:Ralph OR Raulf CARPENTER-16308 Mother: > >Notes ------------------------------------------ > >!Robert or Robert Le Carpenter found in Suffolk Curia Regis Rolls in > >1212. He is believed to be the descendant of William the Carpenter, b. > >abt 1042. > >Found in the IGI as born abt 1167 in Huntingdon,C,England > > > >The paper on the early Curia Regis Rolls of 1212 lists him as above. > > > >INDIVIDUAL DATA RIN:28082 > >------------------------------------------------- > > Name:Robert CARPENTER Sex:M ID No: > > Birth:Abt 1181 Place:Winchester,Hampshire,England > >Father:Robert CARPENTER-28078 Mother: > > > >!SEE: Calendar of Antrobus Deeds before 1625, edited by R. B. Pugh in > >1947. Published by by the Wiltshire Archaeology & Natural History > >Society Records Branch. Submitted by Peter Goodhugh, 1992 of the > >Amesbury Society in Amesbury, Wiltshire, England. Page I, undated circa > >1250 in black pencil. > >"Gift with warranty by Christine daughter of John de Ambresber' in her > >widowhood to Robert Kade for his homage and service of a messuage and > >curtilage lying between the messuage of Robert the carpenter and . . ." > >Robert the carpenter acts as a witness also. See also Robert Carpenter > >born about 1167. > >Page 5, dated 9 July 1321 mentions "Carpenter Street (in vico > >carpentarii) in Great Ambri'." (ie Amesbury, Wiltshire, England) > >Page 6, dated 18 Mar 1323 mentions "Gift with warranty by Stephen le > >carpenter of Winterbourn' to Henry Curteis of Ambresbur' of a tenement > >with a curtilage which he had in the town of Ambresbur' . . ." (ie town > >of Amesbury). > > > >Robert Carpenter appears to be some type of Relative to Christine listed > >above circa 1250 AD. Daughter in law? or ? Christina and Christine is > >close, I wonder and the relationship? > > > >You list several Carpenters, can you supply the source for each? > > > >I will check and see where "Sallop" is in England. > > > >Let us know the sources. Fascinating stuff! > > > >Your Rehoboth Cousin, > > > >John R. Carpenter > >La Mesa, CA > > > >Bruce E. Carpenter wrote: > >> > >> I have meant to go through your early > >> data and compare your findings with mine. I > >> am beginning to see you have many > >> of the individuals I have encountered. For example you > >> have a Robert b. 1167 in Suffolk and a Curia Regis Rolls > >> notation for 1212. I haven't seen that,however I > >> found a Curia Regis Rolls notation for Robert Carpenter > >> married to Christina for 1253. The Suffolk Carpenters > >> seemed to me a distinct group i.e. that had capital > >> for land. There was a Thurston and a John of Butley Carpenter for > 1230-32. > >> All of the above might be descendants of Ralph Carpenter who is listed > for > >> land aquisition in both Norfolk and Suffolk for 1225-26. > >> In 1272 in Sallop, a Robert is noted as son of Radulphus. There was also > a > >> John son of Ralph > >> noted for Norfolk. > >> I question the 1212 date for Robert. Is there even Curia Regis Roll > >> data that early? Where was Sallop? > >> BC > >

John wrote: > "Gaufrido Carpentari" is the latin version of Godwin (Godefroy or > Godefroid in French) Carpenter. This means Godwin lived to a ripe old > age and probably died there! It looks to me as if you are mixing up Godwin with Godfrey. These are not the same name. For that matter, Godwin is primarily an English name, while Godfrey is more Frankish or Norman. > I could not find "Sallop" or similar in the UK maps that I have. The > change from 1272 to present has not reflected similar name or close > variants for "Sallop.". Salop is the standard abbreviation for Shropshire. John Chandler

Let me explain the nature of the Curia Regis Rolls, from which all that I know of the very early (1200s) merchant Carpenters in England, is derived. The Curia Regis was the early court system in England. It has a long history. The written records exist from 1196. All of the medieval papers were collected into sixteen volumes. The first covers 1196-123l. The Regis Rolls has records of land transfers. These nearly always involve people of influence or power, such as barons, gentry, rich merchants and the like. The Regis Rolls are one of the few really superb sources for English history along with the Close Rolls and the Patent Rolls. The fact that the merchant Carpenters figure prominently in these historical sources is testament of their distinguished place in history. Unrelated individuals such as carpenters of trade do not appear in these documents. This is probably unfair, but a fact of history and life. In order to have a name in history you must be someone or do something to ensure your name in the record. A family line with economic influence gets its name in the record. A more humble family does not. This can be a kind of litmus test for family history in earlier periods. The rich Smiths of the 1400s were descended from the rich Smiths of the 1300s and so on. It is undemocratic, but a fact of history. A strict genealogical history of the Carpenter (Carpentier) family cannot be reconstructed. There are constant gaps along the way. However, a history of a family group sharing time, place and historical circumstance can be written. While the genealogical connections can be unclear at many junctures back through time, the family group as a whole can be quite distinct in shared time, place and historical circumstance. BC

Dear Bruce, I have 3 Robert Carpenters in that time period. INDIVIDUAL DATA RIN:28078 - ------------------------------------------ Name:Robert CARPENTER Sex:M ID No: Birth:Abt 1150 Place:of,Hampshire,England Son of Robert Carpenter-200031 - Bishop Melun. INDIVIDUAL DATA RIN:16310 - ------------------------------------------- Name:Robert CARPENTER Sex:M ID No: Birth:Abt 1167 Place:of,Suffolk,England Chr: Place: Marr: Spouse:Unknown Father:Ralph OR Raulf CARPENTER-16308 Mother: Notes ------------------------------------------ !Robert or Robert Le Carpenter found in Suffolk Curia Regis Rolls in 1212. He is believed to be the descendant of William the Carpenter, b. abt 1042. Found in the IGI as born abt 1167 in Huntingdon,C,England The paper on the early Curia Regis Rolls of 1212 lists him as above. INDIVIDUAL DATA RIN:28082 - ----------------------------------------------- Name:Robert CARPENTER Sex:M ID No: Birth:Abt 1181 Place:Winchester,Hampshire,England Father:Robert CARPENTER-28078 Mother: !SEE: Calendar of Antrobus Deeds before 1625, edited by R. B. Pugh in 1947. Published by by the Wiltshire Archaeology & Natural History Society Records Branch. Submitted by Peter Goodhugh, 1992 of the Amesbury Society in Amesbury, Wiltshire, England. Page I, undated circa 1250 in black pencil. "Gift with warranty by Christine daughter of John de Ambresber' in her widowhood to Robert Kade for his homage and service of a messuage and curtilage lying between the messuage of Robert the carpenter and . . ." Robert the carpenter acts as a witness also. See also Robert Carpenter born about 1167. Page 5, dated 9 July 1321 mentions "Carpenter Street (in vico carpentarii) in Great Ambri'." (ie Amesbury, Wiltshire, England) Page 6, dated 18 Mar 1323 mentions "Gift with warranty by Stephen le carpenter of Winterbourn' to Henry Curteis of Ambresbur' of a tenement with a curtilage which he had in the town of Ambresbur' . . ." (ie town of Amesbury). Robert Carpenter appears to be some type of Relative to Christine listed above circa 1250 AD. Daughter in law? or ? Christina and Christine is close, I wonder and the relationship? You list several Carpenters, can you supply the source for each? I will check and see where "Sallop" is in England. Let us know the sources. Fascinating stuff! Your Rehoboth Cousin, John R. Carpenter La Mesa, CA Bruce E. Carpenter wrote: > > I have meant to go through your early > data and compare your findings with mine. I > am beginning to see you have many > of the individuals I have encountered. For example you > have a Robert b. 1167 in Suffolk and a Curia Regis Rolls > notation for 1212. I haven't seen that,however I > found a Curia Regis Rolls notation for Robert Carpenter > married to Christina for 1253. The Suffolk Carpenters > seemed to me a distinct group i.e. that had capital > for land. There was a Thurston and a John of Butley Carpenter for 1230-32. > All of the above might be descendants of Ralph Carpenter who is listed for > land aquisition in both Norfolk and Suffolk for 1225-26. > In 1272 in Sallop, a Robert is noted as son of Radulphus. There was also a > John son of Ralph > noted for Norfolk. > I question the 1212 date for Robert. Is there even Curia Regis Roll > data that early? Where was Sallop? > BC

I have meant to go through your early data and compare your findings with mine. I am beginning to see you have many of the individuals I have encountered. For example you have a Robert b. 1167 in Suffolk and a Curia Regis Rolls notation for 1212. I haven't seen that,however I found a Curia Regis Rolls notation for Robert Carpenter married to Christina for 1253. The Suffolk Carpenters seemed to me a distinct group i.e. that had capital for land. There was a Thurston and a John of Butley Carpenter for 1230-32. All of the above might be descendants of Ralph Carpenter who is listed for land aquisition in both Norfolk and Suffolk for 1225-26. In 1272 in Sallop, a Robert is noted as son of Radulphus. There was also a John son of Ralph noted for Norfolk. I question the 1212 date for Robert. Is there even Curia Regis Roll data that early? Where was Sallop? BC

Dear Bruce, I hope you are recording and documenting where you find all these unique Carpenters. And I hope you will share all what you find. To find additional data on Adam Carpenter and his wife Agnes Carpenter would be first rate. I would still like to see how you linked Adam to John the younger, the noted Town Clerk of London. Can you show us? Adam was the son of Ailric and the grandson of Ralph in my records. Ralph had a grandfather named William, but no brothers named William that I found. Can you please share those records that show Ralph and William as brothers or father and son? Also interesting is the relationship between Ralph and Adam, can you post the documents of how and when they imported wine into England? Also any export data? This would be a great find and very interesting! You indicated that "Adam had a son Galfridus who was part of the Lincolnshire Carpenters. The Lincolnshire Carpenters can be tracked right into London of the 1300s." Can you please share this data? It would help considerably in understanding the Carpenters of that time. I hope you will share all those chronological land-buys and land-rents you find and the other pieces of the puzzle! Also if you post the record in latin, the members of the Carpenter Forum can find someone to help translate. All of us might help with pieces of the puzzle. Please post as much as you find on Carpenters. It helps everyone! Thanks again! Your Rehoboth Carpenter cousin, John R. Carpenter La Mesa, CA ************************************************************ Bruce E. Carpenter wrote: > > John: > I have encountered your first Adam and wife Agnes (I > recall seeing him and must check again).I recall he > seemed a trade-carpenter. Your second one may be the Adam > I have discussed. Your data may be from a land aquisition. The Adam > I am discussing left a chronological trail > of land-buys and land-rents from Norfolk to > Herefordshire from 1225 to 1250. We are talking > 'manum domini regis' class land aquisitions. He has to > be the same individual. Ralph appears aquiring land > in Norfolk, Surry and > Herefordshire at the same time. Were Adam and Ralph brothers or > father/son ? Ralph had a brother William who in turn had > a son John. Another possibility is Ralph and William > were father and son. Adam had a son Galfridus who was > part of the Lincolnshire Carpenters. The Lincolnshire > Carpenters can be tracked right into London of the 1300s. > Lincolnshire Gilbert Carpenter (merchant) can > be seen in the same legal document with Richard Carpenter > in 1360s. Gilbert was of course long gone by 1360. > This is post plague London and Richard > had interest in several properties which can > be documented. Richard's exact relation to Gilbert is not > known. Uncle? These same Lincolnshire Carpenters move their commercial > activities into York. > A good deal of this material is in Latin and I am sure there > are many excellent clues that I am missing. It may be > a long time before I can account for it all. I am still > collecting. The Oxford material promises to reveal a lot. > > BC > > -----Original Message----- > From: John Carpenter <jrcrin001@home.com> > To: Bruce E. Carpenter <carp@whidbey.com> > Cc: CARPENTER-L@rootsweb.com <CARPENTER-L@rootsweb.com>; Tony & Gil > Carpenter <tony.c.@skynow.net>; Terry Lee Carpenter <diluvius@flash.net>; > John L. Carpenter <familysearcher@mailcity.com>; Bette Butcher Topp > <toppline@cet.com> > Date: Sunday, October 24, 1999 12:30 PM > Subject: Re: Carpenter mills 2 > > >Dear Bruce, > > > >I need some clairfications on your last memo to the Carpenter forum. > >This starting with Adam and Ralph Carpenter in the early 1200s. > > > >First, RE: Adam ... > > > >I have two Adam Carpenters in that time period. > > > >INDIVIDUAL DATA RIN:13036 > >----------------------------------------------- > > Name:Adam CARPENTER Sex:M ID No: > > Birth:Abt 1200 Place:Christburneford,Dorset,England > > Chr: Place: > > Marr: Spouse:Agnes CARPENTER-13063 > >Father:Ailric CARPENTER-13062 Mother: > > > >INDIVIDUAL DATA RIN:34956 > >---------------------------------------------------- > > Name:Adam CARPENTER Sex:M ID No: > > Birth:Abt 1225 Place:of Coventry,Warwickshire,England > > Chr: Place: > > Marr: Spouse:Unknown > >Father:Hugh CARPENTER-34584 Mother: > >Hugh being the son of Jordan (b. 1165) Carpenter-34588 and the grandson > >of William (b. abt 1130) Carpenter-34551. William (34551) is the fourth > >William from William "the carpenter" De Melun. > > > >Which Adam can be linked and how to John Carpenter to the Town Clerk of > >London? > > > >The reason I ask is I know of only two possible lines of approach from > >Godwin to John the younger, the noted Town Clerk of London. > > > >Previously it was believed to be through Godwin then Ralph in England to > >Ailric, then Adam to Elgan then back to France to Siger then JEAN to > >Maurice (to England) then John then Richard the father of John the > >younger, the noted Town Clerk of London. > > > >The current theory is that it is more direct (staying in France) through > >Godwin then Reynaud then Jean then Godefroy (brother of Siger) then to > >JEAN to Maurice (to England) then John then Richard the father of John > >the younger, the noted Town Clerk of London. > > > > +---¦William CARPENTER-28699 > >Godwin CARPENTER-16311 ¦ ¦Abt 1067/1068 > >Abt 1100 -------------¦ ¦of Melun,Seine-et-Marne,I,France > >of Melun,Seine-et-Marne,I,France > >MRIN:10394 > > --SPOUSE-- > >MRIN:5862 > >--CHILDREN-- > > 1Reynaud OR Richard CARPENTIER-47915 > > 2Ralph OR Raulf CARPENTER-16308 > > > >If you can show which one or another Carpenter line is probable, I would > >be very grateful. > > > >SECOND - Back to Adam and Ralph you mentioned. Re: Ralph Carpenter ... > > > >I only have one Ralph or Raulf in my records. He is listed as the father > >of Ailric and the grandfather to one of the Adams above. > > > >Ralph Carpenter was found in the Yorkshire Pipe Rolls in 1175. It is > >believed that he tried to regain some lands in Norfolk and Suffolk that > >was taken by King Edward II because of his father and uncle supporting > >King Stephen. After or during service for the King in Yorkshire, and > >for his continued support of the King he was later given some land in > >Norfolk. > > +---¦Godwin CARPENTER-16311 > >Ralph OR Raulf CARPENTER-16308¦ ¦Abt 1100 > >Abt 1135 --------------¦ ¦of Melun,Seine-et-Marne,I,France > >of,Yorkshire,England ¦ MRIN:5862 > > --SPOUSE-- MRIN:5675 > > > > --CHILDREN-- > > 1Ailric CARPENTER-13062 > > 2-Hugh CARPENTER-28077 > > 3Robert CARPENTER-16310 > > 4-Alice CARPENTER-51170 > > 5-Joan CARPENTER-51171 > > > >Do you have documents listing Adam and Ralph imported wine into England > >from France? Also the export data? This would be a great find! > > > >Thanks for the confirmation on the two daughters of Ralph (Alice and > >Joan). Keep bringing this stuff in! > > > >The William Carpenter you found in Ireland was probably the son of ... > > > > +---¦Adam CARPENTER-13036 > >Alexander CARPENTER-13061 ¦ ¦Abt 1200 (son of Ailric) > >Abt 1215 --------------¦ ¦Christburneford,Dorset,England > >of Conral,,Ireland ¦ MRIN:4557 > > --SPOUSE-- MRIN:18210 +---¦Agnes CARPENTER-13063 > > ¦Abt 1199 > > ¦of,Northampton,England > > > >Alexander was noted of Conral, Ireland and held land there. Later when > >that line died off, the Carpenters in England probably used the common > >family ancestry to reclaim land under the title "Baron of Killaghy" > >which was granted for faithful service in 1719. > > > >INDIVIDUAL DATA RIN:11685 > >---------------------------------------------- > >Name:George CARPENTER Lord Sex:M ID No: > >Birth:10 Feb 1657 Place:Ocle Pychard,Hertfordshire,England > >Chr: Place:Baron,of Killaghy,Ireland > >Marr: 1693 Spouse:Alice CAULFIELD-11739 > >Death:10 Feb 1731 Place: > >Burial:Abt 10 Feb 1731 Place:Owsebury near,Westchester,H,England > >Father:Warncomb CARPENTER-11684 Mother:Elizabeth OR E TAYLOR-19790 > > > > > >Keep the material coming in, it's GREAT! > > > >Sincerely, > > > >Your Rehoboth Carpenter Cousin, > > > >John R. Carpenter > >La Mesa, CA > >***************************************************** > >Bruce E. Carpenter wrote: > >> > >> The following is an important document in the history of the early > Carpenter > >> family in England. The two earliest Carpenters of this line, that likely > >> originated in Flanders, were Adam and Ralph Carpenter. Early in the 1200s > >> they begin their land acquisition activities in Kent, Norfolk and > >> subsequently into Hereford. Descendants of Adam were active in > Lincolnshire > >> and can be linked to John Carpenter the Town Clerk of London. This family > >> group brought major capital into England in the early 1200s, which > enabled > >> them to attach themselves to powerful interests and persons. They can be > >> seen importing wine for the royal household by 1300, as well as holding > >> export privileges for wool. One of their numbers was a burgess of > Bordeaux > >> (Elias Carpenter) in Gascony, and himself was a controlling power in wine > >> production and export from that English possession in France. The > document I > >> wish to introduce here connects the above Ralph Carpenter to Rodger le > Bigod > >> (1245-1306), fifth Earl of Norfolk and marshal of England. The > interesting > >> detail in this document is the mention of “a mill with land adjoining”. > This > >> mill was most probably a fulling mill for raw wool. During this period in > >> English history the powerful, including the king himself, controlled all > the > >> production facilities for wool and many other products. The early > Carpenters > >> used their continental money to basically rent land for all stages of > wool > >> production. They also controlled facilities for the production of > finished > >> cloth itself in the Flemish cloth producing cities like Douai and Ypres, > for > >> export back to England and other European destinations. From ANCIENT > DEEDS, > >> vol. 1, A 532, p. 63. > >> > >> “Release by Alice, daughter of Ralph Carpenter, and Joan her sister, for > >> 40s., to Rodger le Bigod, Earl Marshal, of a mill with land adjoining in > >> Lammers. Witnesses:-Sir Laurance de Scaccario, Sir Ralph de Wascoyl, John > de > >> Wascoyl, Peter de Pelham, and others (named) A.D. 1225-70.” > >> > >> While I am on the subject of mills, I would like to present another > related > >> document. It deals with mills belong to the King himself in Ireland in > 1290. > >> The William le Carpenter mentioned in this information cannot at this > time > >> be connected to Carpenters back in England. However the Charpenter group > was > >> active in Ireland, a place profoundly involved with wool production at > the > >> time. In another document this William Carpenter is described as ‘the > King’s > >> ‘serjeant’, the meaning of which was completely different from modern > >> definitions of serjeant. Serjeants were not of the noble class, yet held > >> land and privilege from the King on the same level as a noble. Many of > the > >> names of these Ireland Carpenters match those of Carpenter merchants in > >> England. The William in the following disposition is seen as holding the > >> King’s property rights for a limited period. We can assume that he went > to > >> Ireland and subsequently left after the expiration of his tenure. The > mills > >> mentioned could also be fulling mills. I say this because like the above > >> document, the mention of mills is given prominent mention, as if the > mills > >> were the central reason for the property that surrounded them. From > CALENDAR > >> OF DOCUMENTS RELATING TO IRELAND, Dec. 27, 1290, no. 827. > >> > >> “ The King confirms the grant made by letters patent under the seal of > the > >> Exchequer of Dublin, by the Treasurer and Barons of that Exchequer, to > >> William le Carpenter, of the King’s mills, houses, and lands of > Chapelizod, > >> to hold for a term of ten years, and rendering at that Exchequer, As > William > >> was wont to render, 31 marks a year, one moiety at Easter and the other > >> moiety at Michaelmas.” > >> > >> As a final note, no reference was made to Carpenters in Scotland. > >> > >> Bruce Carpenter

Dear Bruce, I need some clairfications on your last memo to the Carpenter forum. This starting with Adam and Ralph Carpenter in the early 1200s. First, RE: Adam ... I have two Adam Carpenters in that time period. INDIVIDUAL DATA RIN:13036 - --------------------------------------------- Name:Adam CARPENTER Sex:M ID No: Birth:Abt 1200 Place:Christburneford,Dorset,England Chr: Place: Marr: Spouse:Agnes CARPENTER-13063 Father:Ailric CARPENTER-13062 Mother: INDIVIDUAL DATA RIN:34956 - -------------------------------------------------- Name:Adam CARPENTER Sex:M ID No: Birth:Abt 1225 Place:of Coventry,Warwickshire,England Chr: Place: Marr: Spouse:Unknown Father:Hugh CARPENTER-34584 Mother: Hugh being the son of Jordan (b. 1165) Carpenter-34588 and the grandson of William (b. abt 1130) Carpenter-34551. William (34551) is the fourth William from William "the carpenter" De Melun. Which Adam can be linked and how to John Carpenter to the Town Clerk of London? The reason I ask is I know of only two possible lines of approach from Godwin to John the younger, the noted Town Clerk of London. Previously it was believed to be through Godwin then Ralph in England to Ailric, then Adam to Elgan then back to France to Siger then JEAN to Maurice (to England) then John then Richard the father of John the younger, the noted Town Clerk of London. The current theory is that it is more direct (staying in France) through Godwin then Reynaud then Jean then Godefroy (brother of Siger) then to JEAN to Maurice (to England) then John then Richard the father of John the younger, the noted Town Clerk of London. +---¦William CARPENTER-28699 Godwin CARPENTER-16311 ¦ ¦Abt 1067/1068 Abt 1100 -------------¦ ¦of Melun,Seine-et-Marne,I,France of Melun,Seine-et-Marne,I,France MRIN:10394 --SPOUSE-- MRIN:5862 --CHILDREN-- 1Reynaud OR Richard CARPENTIER-47915 2Ralph OR Raulf CARPENTER-16308 If you can show which one or another Carpenter line is probable, I would be very grateful. SECOND - Back to Adam and Ralph you mentioned. Re: Ralph Carpenter ... I only have one Ralph or Raulf in my records. He is listed as the father of Ailric and the grandfather to one of the Adams above. Ralph Carpenter was found in the Yorkshire Pipe Rolls in 1175. It is believed that he tried to regain some lands in Norfolk and Suffolk that was taken by King Edward II because of his father and uncle supporting King Stephen. After or during service for the King in Yorkshire, and for his continued support of the King he was later given some land in Norfolk. +---¦Godwin CARPENTER-16311 Ralph OR Raulf CARPENTER-16308¦ ¦Abt 1100 Abt 1135 --------------¦ ¦of Melun,Seine-et-Marne,I,France of,Yorkshire,England ¦ MRIN:5862 --SPOUSE-- MRIN:5675 --CHILDREN-- 1Ailric CARPENTER-13062 2-Hugh CARPENTER-28077 3Robert CARPENTER-16310 4-Alice CARPENTER-51170 5-Joan CARPENTER-51171 Do you have documents listing Adam and Ralph imported wine into England from France? Also the export data? This would be a great find! Thanks for the confirmation on the two daughters of Ralph (Alice and Joan). Keep bringing this stuff in! The William Carpenter you found in Ireland was probably the son of ... +---¦Adam CARPENTER-13036 Alexander CARPENTER-13061 ¦ ¦Abt 1200 (son of Ailric) Abt 1215 --------------¦ ¦Christburneford,Dorset,England of Conral,,Ireland ¦ MRIN:4557 --SPOUSE-- MRIN:18210 +---¦Agnes CARPENTER-13063 ¦Abt 1199 ¦of,Northampton,England Alexander was noted of Conral, Ireland and held land there. Later when that line died off, the Carpenters in England probably used the common family ancestry to reclaim land under the title "Baron of Killaghy" which was granted for faithful service in 1719. INDIVIDUAL DATA RIN:11685 - -------------------------------------------- Name:George CARPENTER Lord Sex:M ID No: Birth:10 Feb 1657 Place:Ocle Pychard,Hertfordshire,England Chr: Place:Baron,of Killaghy,Ireland Marr: 1693 Spouse:Alice CAULFIELD-11739 Death:10 Feb 1731 Place: Burial:Abt 10 Feb 1731 Place:Owsebury near,Westchester,H,England Father:Warncomb CARPENTER-11684 Mother:Elizabeth OR E TAYLOR-19790 Keep the material coming in, it's GREAT! Sincerely, Your Rehoboth Carpenter Cousin, John R. Carpenter La Mesa, CA ***************************************************** Bruce E. Carpenter wrote: > > The following is an important document in the history of the early Carpenter > family in England. The two earliest Carpenters of this line, that likely > originated in Flanders, were Adam and Ralph Carpenter. Early in the 1200s > they begin their land acquisition activities in Kent, Norfolk and > subsequently into Hereford. Descendants of Adam were active in Lincolnshire > and can be linked to John Carpenter the Town Clerk of London. This family > group brought major capital into England in the early 1200s, which enabled > them to attach themselves to powerful interests and persons. They can be > seen importing wine for the royal household by 1300, as well as holding > export privileges for wool. One of their numbers was a burgess of Bordeaux > (Elias Carpenter) in Gascony, and himself was a controlling power in wine > production and export from that English possession in France. The document I > wish to introduce here connects the above Ralph Carpenter to Rodger le Bigod > (1245-1306), fifth Earl of Norfolk and marshal of England. The interesting > detail in this document is the mention of “a mill with land adjoining”. This > mill was most probably a fulling mill for raw wool. During this period in > English history the powerful, including the king himself, controlled all the > production facilities for wool and many other products. The early Carpenters > used their continental money to basically rent land for all stages of wool > production. They also controlled facilities for the production of finished > cloth itself in the Flemish cloth producing cities like Douai and Ypres, for > export back to England and other European destinations. From ANCIENT DEEDS, > vol. 1, A 532, p. 63. > > “Release by Alice, daughter of Ralph Carpenter, and Joan her sister, for > 40s., to Rodger le Bigod, Earl Marshal, of a mill with land adjoining in > Lammers. Witnesses:-Sir Laurance de Scaccario, Sir Ralph de Wascoyl, John de > Wascoyl, Peter de Pelham, and others (named) A.D. 1225-70.” > > While I am on the subject of mills, I would like to present another related > document. It deals with mills belong to the King himself in Ireland in 1290. > The William le Carpenter mentioned in this information cannot at this time > be connected to Carpenters back in England. However the Charpenter group was > active in Ireland, a place profoundly involved with wool production at the > time. In another document this William Carpenter is described as ‘the King’s > ‘serjeant’, the meaning of which was completely different from modern > definitions of serjeant. Serjeants were not of the noble class, yet held > land and privilege from the King on the same level as a noble. Many of the > names of these Ireland Carpenters match those of Carpenter merchants in > England. The William in the following disposition is seen as holding the > King’s property rights for a limited period. We can assume that he went to > Ireland and subsequently left after the expiration of his tenure. The mills > mentioned could also be fulling mills. I say this because like the above > document, the mention of mills is given prominent mention, as if the mills > were the central reason for the property that surrounded them. From CALENDAR > OF DOCUMENTS RELATING TO IRELAND, Dec. 27, 1290, no. 827. > > “ The King confirms the grant made by letters patent under the seal of the > Exchequer of Dublin, by the Treasurer and Barons of that Exchequer, to > William le Carpenter, of the King’s mills, houses, and lands of Chapelizod, > to hold for a term of ten years, and rendering at that Exchequer, As William > was wont to render, 31 marks a year, one moiety at Easter and the other > moiety at Michaelmas.” > > As a final note, no reference was made to Carpenters in Scotland. > > Bruce Carpenter

A major information source for early Carpenter history will certainly be A Cartulary of the Hospital of St. John the Baptist, the surviving records of a medieval charitable institution. The hospital was located in Oxford and was more than a hospital in modern terms. It was a rest home for the old and rich, an inn for travelers etc. We know the London Carpenters were related to the Oxford Carpenters through Sir John Carpenter and his siblings who had property in and about Oxford about 1300. Luckily the ancient records for the Hospital of St. John still survive. Many Carpenter land records survive from the mid 1200s, in what is a treasure-trove of Carpenter history. Oxford was one of the centers for cloth making in the 1200s. A fulling mill originally subsidized the Hospital of St. John itself. It is no surprise to find Carpenters there, in force. Later I will present as much of this data as I can. Bruce Carpenter

The following is an important document in the history of the early Carpenter family in England. The two earliest Carpenters of this line, that likely originated in Flanders, were Adam and Ralph Carpenter. Early in the 1200s they begin their land acquisition activities in Kent, Norfolk and subsequently into Hereford. Descendants of Adam were active in Lincolnshire and can be linked to John Carpenter the Town Clerk of London. This family group brought major capital into England in the early 1200s, which enabled them to attach themselves to powerful interests and persons. They can be seen importing wine for the royal household by 1300, as well as holding export privileges for wool. One of their numbers was a burgess of Bordeaux (Elias Carpenter) in Gascony, and himself was a controlling power in wine production and export from that English possession in France. The document I wish to introduce here connects the above Ralph Carpenter to Rodger le Bigod (1245-1306), fifth Earl of Norfolk and marshal of England. The interesting detail in this document is the mention of “a mill with land adjoining”. This mill was most probably a fulling mill for raw wool. During this period in English history the powerful, including the king himself, controlled all the production facilities for wool and many other products. The early Carpenters used their continental money to basically rent land for all stages of wool production. They also controlled facilities for the production of finished cloth itself in the Flemish cloth producing cities like Douai and Ypres, for export back to England and other European destinations. From ANCIENT DEEDS, vol. 1, A 532, p. 63. “Release by Alice, daughter of Ralph Carpenter, and Joan her sister, for 40s., to Rodger le Bigod, Earl Marshal, of a mill with land adjoining in Lammers. Witnesses:-Sir Laurance de Scaccario, Sir Ralph de Wascoyl, John de Wascoyl, Peter de Pelham, and others (named) A.D. 1225-70.” While I am on the subject of mills, I would like to present another related document. It deals with mills belong to the King himself in Ireland in 1290. The William le Carpenter mentioned in this information cannot at this time be connected to Carpenters back in England. However the Charpenter group was active in Ireland, a place profoundly involved with wool production at the time. In another document this William Carpenter is described as ‘the King’s ‘serjeant’, the meaning of which was completely different from modern definitions of serjeant. Serjeants were not of the noble class, yet held land and privilege from the King on the same level as a noble. Many of the names of these Ireland Carpenters match those of Carpenter merchants in England. The William in the following disposition is seen as holding the King’s property rights for a limited period. We can assume that he went to Ireland and subsequently left after the expiration of his tenure. The mills mentioned could also be fulling mills. I say this because like the above document, the mention of mills is given prominent mention, as if the mills were the central reason for the property that surrounded them. From CALENDAR OF DOCUMENTS RELATING TO IRELAND, Dec. 27, 1290, no. 827. “ The King confirms the grant made by letters patent under the seal of the Exchequer of Dublin, by the Treasurer and Barons of that Exchequer, to William le Carpenter, of the King’s mills, houses, and lands of Chapelizod, to hold for a term of ten years, and rendering at that Exchequer, As William was wont to render, 31 marks a year, one moiety at Easter and the other moiety at Michaelmas.” As a final note, no reference was made to Carpenters in Scotland. Bruce Carpenter

http://www.rootsweb.com/~nyliving/database/springwater.htm Carpenters, Livingstone Co., NY Benjamin for Cayuga Co Willis Serrette S. Joseph Edwin Luacian B Betsy

http://www.rootsweb.com/~nyccazen/Census/Cazenovia/1855CazOrder.html http://www.rootsweb.com/~nyccazen/Census/Nelson/1820Nelson.html Madison Co. NY Carpenters, Daniel and Elijah (also has James Knickerbacker) http://www.rootsweb.com/~nyccazen/Census/Nelson/1820Nelson.html 1849 D and J Carpenter, tombstone carvers, Lockport, Niagra Co. NY http://www.rootsweb.com/~nyccazen/TaxLists/CazTown/1812Assessment.html Cazenova town assessment roll 1812

http://www.rootsweb.com/~patioga/cemetery/academyc.htm Called Carpenter or Academy Cemetery - Tioga co. PA Has several Carpenter and other graves

Carpenter, Betsey Bath NY William Purdy 25 July 1817 Fingerlake website. Carpenter, Amira Elmira NY Robert H. Thompson 6 Jan 1819 <A HREF="http://members.tripod.com/~chickened/fingerlakes.html">Finger Lakes Region of NY Genealogy</A>