Phoebe & George: I missed the initial message(s) about Roswell Carpenter Coleman, but saw George's reply. Here are a few items: ABC shows a Roswell Carpenter (#1812) at p. 250 as 13th child of Amos Carpenter (733) of Timothy (235) of Samuel (62) of Samuel 23. Says Roswell born in Westminster VT, married Louisa Larkins of Rockingham VT. A farmer, and cites a couple of oterh personal description. At p.419, ABC further says Roswell #1812's children were Abial(3806), Roswell(3807), Moses(3808), Joseph(3809, b. c1790), all born in Northfield VT. Further at p. 419, Timothy #1814, of Timothy #736, of Timothy #235 (etc) had children Phineas (#3810), Roswell (#3811, b.Mar 2, 1789, m Rosanna Tileston, res Waterville VT), Susan (#3812), Sally (#3813), Ira(#3814), Joanna H(#3814 1/2) At p. 605 are the children of Roswell #3811; Almira, Clark, Mary, Roswell(#6022, Oct 19, 1823), Laura, Jerusha, Ira, Emery, Alfred Pliny, Thomas Henry. In Coleman's Early Records of the FPC of Goshen, p. 63 shows a Carpenter Coleman as a member Nov 4, 1820, with a "*" indicating "never before in communion." At p. 75 Carpenter Coleman is shown as a member 1840. At p. 134 Carpenter Coleman is listed under Baptisms of Nov 5, 1820. RLC

Hi Phoebe: Carp-Mem citation on Ezra D. Carpenter says: #5957, son of Elliot Carpenter (#3754), of Samuel (#1786), of Samuel (#729), of Samuel #234, of Samuel #62, of Samuel #23, of William #16 Says EDC was born July 30, 1833 in thompson CT. Further; "It was probably this Ezra D who volunteered in the last war as 2nd lieutenant, July 14, 1862, mustered into service Aug 18, 1862, captured June 15, 1863, at Winchester, VA, paroled Dec 10, 1864, and mustered out June 27, 1865 in Company B, 18th Regiment, Thomas K. Bates, captain, and William G. Ely, colonel." Robin C.

Penny: Thanks for your patience at what seems a confusion.I have been looking for a geographical expression which would cover the various points I have been discussing. I have found Carpenters in the late 1200s and through the 1300s living in the St. Clement Danes parish, Fleetstreet and Holebourn Bridge and the Newgate area. For lack of a better term I have used "Fleetsreet area". Why the Carpenters chose this area for habitation has yet to be clarified. Few Carpenters have been found anywhere else in London, while those in the "Fleetstreet area", show many of points connectedness. Sincerely, Bruce E. Carpenter

MzCortez@aol.com wrote: > Dear Folks, > > Does anyone know who EZRA DAVIS CARPENTER is? That is a name that shows up > as a relative of many of the Orange Co. Carpenter members on the LDS IGI > lists. > > Thank you, > > Phoebe Phoebe, page 600 of ABC Memorial has a little info on Ezra Davis CArpenter, his siblings, parents and Civil War record.

Hi, Phoebe, Another connection, but What Does It All Mean?? What a mess. I'm retiring at the end of Jan., so will finally be able to take the "brain time" needed to do my share for the mini-group in sorting some of this stuff out. I just made a mental connection, but don't know how it fits. You mention here a Roswell CARPENTER Coleman. Well, my GGgrandfather (James CARPENTER, b. abt. 1823; lived in Madison Co., NY, then went West to IN, MI, MN, and SD) had a son named Francis Adelbert, who settled in SE Michigan. Frank in turn had a son named Roswell CARPENTER. No Coleman, but what the hey?! Acc. to my sources, Roswell was born in 1875. They lived in Decatur, MI. So you guys work your magic and tell me how this ties together. <g> Somewhere a CARPENTER woman married a COLEMAN man, and then left us cute little clues to follow. Who was the wonderful uncle or grandparent who deserved having two descendants named for him? Roswell was second son. Here are his sibs: William Francis; Amy Belle; Orrie M.; Maude Estelle; (Roswell); J. Erwin; Altha V.; Nellis A. Birthdates range from 1868 to 1883. Any other tie-ins? Take care, George --- George R. Carpenter carpgl@ismi.net ---------- > From: MzCortez@aol.com > Date: Thursday, November 04, 1999 2:17 PM > Orange Co. Historical and Biographical Record pg 1125 notes that > Roswell CARPENTER Coleman son of James CARPENTER Coleman who married Phoebe > Meade was gr. grandson of Benjamin b 1755 who m Hannah (CARPENTER) Finch who > was born 1761 (that would be the mother not the dau. above). It further > states that "she" and "her" father's family were refugees of the Wyoming > Massacre (1779). > > Phoebe in CA >

No, but I hope he had a son named John who was b. in1797 in VT. <g> George ---------- > Does anyone know who EZRA DAVIS CARPENTER is? > Phoebe

The Carpenters of London have been shown to inhabit the general area of Fleetstreet in London for well over a century before the 1391 of the document below. Why did they abandon their traditional neighborhood for the Cornhill and St. Martins Outwich parish area, in the case of Richard Carpenter and his son John the Town Clerk? Partly the reason was shown to have been their choice of profession. The cloth merchants of London always lived in proximity to one-another, and these were the professions of Richard and his sons. There are additional reasons however that can be seen easily in the historical record. Well before 1391, the Fleetstreet neighborhood had deteriorated environmentally. Yes, there were still many people of wealth and quality in the neighborhood, but as you will see, they (some of there were just property owners in the area) were unhappy. “…….as John duke of Aquitaine and Lancastre, the Bishops of Lincoln and Ely, the earl of Northumberland, the prior of St.John of Jerusalem in England, the abbot of Leycestre, the priors of St. Bartholomew and Sempryngham, the nuns of Clerkenwelstrete, the lords of Cherlton, Straunge, Scrope, Grey and Burnell and all the inhabitants in divers messuages, inns and houses in Holbourne, Smythfelde, Seint Jonestrete, Clerkenwelstrete’, the baily by ‘Neugate’ and ‘Fletestrete’ in the suburb of London…………showing that contrary to that order (in the time of Edward III) so many dung heaps and stinking issues and entrails of great beasts, sheep and pigs slaughtered by butchers within the city are put and cast forth in certain places in Holbourne by “Holbourbrigge’ that the air has long been abominably defiled, whence have daily arisen sicknesses and intolerable grievances…” (Close, 15 Richard II, Dec.6). Bruce Carpenter

Bruce wrote: > I didn't understand what John meant by "descent from a cousin > of the grandfather". I had thought the individual > Weis had discussed was a direct descendant of > Charlemagne. I guess Bruce didn't read what he wrote in the original message, which was that Childebrand the ancestor was a "germanus" of Karl Martel. ["germanus" is "cousin"] It was quoted from some edition (unstated) of "Ancestral Roots". The name Charlemagne was not part of the quote at all. If the quote was not reported correctly, this might be a good time to restate it. John Chandler

Thanks to John for taking the time to correct my departure from accuracy. I must have made John cranky because his remarks re. Dr. Weis suggest unjustified irritibility. The fact that the Weis books have undergone serval revisions is only an indication of the difficulty of the subject matter. Several editions is also an indication of continued reader interest. Natually there are old discarded editions. I didn't understand what John meant by "descent from a cousin of the grandfather". I had thought the individual Weis had discussed was a direct descendant of Charlemagne. Bruce Carpenter

Searching for parents/sibling of Sarah Goss, B. Feb 7, 1757 and Barlow Carpenter b. Sept 12, 1747 Mendon, Worcester,Ma Believe parents of Sarah Goss to be Richard Goss and Martha Robbins, But very unsure. Sarah Goss married Barlow Carpenter(Oliver,Oliver,Oliver,Abiah,William) 26 Mar 1782, Mendon ,Worcester ,Ma Had the following children Martha Carpenter b. Jun 2, 1784 Mendon,Worcester,Ma m. unknown John Carpenter b. 27 Jan 1786 Mendon, Worcester, Ma m. Lucena Thompson Richard Carpenter b. Jan 16, 1786 m. Elizabeth "Betsey" Austin

I've been following all of this English history and where the Carpenters might fit in. I'm very new to this. Just found a site http://www.prbm.com/interest/firefite.htm where it seems that Fleetstreet is an area of London rather than a street? Help - any clarification? Anxious to know more........Penny

Dear Folks, Does anyone know who EZRA DAVIS CARPENTER is? That is a name that shows up as a relative of many of the Orange Co. Carpenter members on the LDS IGI lists. Thank you, Phoebe

The following is from Frederick Lewis Weis, one of the best genealogists of our time. Dr. Weis studied royal descents. Here he gives us his expert opinion on Raoul de Gouy: “The parentage (Hucbold as father) of Raoul No. 17 is in doubt. His mother was a Heiliwich who m. (2) Waleran, Count of Laon. David H. Kelly, from his studies (soon to be published) thinks it more likely that his father was Count Theuderic, prob. of Valois, Vixin, pos. of Amiens, who was of the male line of Childebrand, germanus of Karl Martel.” (Ancestral Roots, p.223) Karl Martel or Charles Martel was King of the Franks. His grandson was Charlemagne. Thus with a little work we may eventually be able to establish what is called “Charlemagne descent” for the Carpenter family. Many people are descended from Charlemagne. They say that at least ¼ of everyone alive in England are his descendants. I can prove my own descent (thanks to Dr. Weis) on my mother’s side. However a continuous male descent would be, I assume, unusual. Keep Karl in mind. Sincerely, Bruce Carpenter

ABSTRACT of will of DANIEL JAYNES of Cornwall Precinct, Orange County Feb. 19, 1785. Wife: Hannah Dau: Sarah, wife of JOHN CARPENTER inherits the farm on which he now lives. Grandaughter: Rachel TUCKER Hannah TUCKER Executors: JOHN CARPENTER son-in-law and Capt. Ebenezer WOODHULL, both of Cornwall. Witnesses: Jonah TOOKER, William SHEPARD, Nathan COOLY Proved Orange Co. March 3, 1786 Thank you, Phoebe P. S. Although the WOODHULL family book does not list a JAYNE, I believe the William Jayne marriage to Elizabeth Woodhull has been published. Thank you, Phoebe Searching: Moses Carpenter, Ruth Coe, Mary Thompson, Marah McDowell NY: LI: Coe, Carpenter Or Co. Carpenter, Coe, Jayne, McDowell, Thompson, Wisner, Woodhull NJ: MoCo. Coe, Runyon, Halstead connections?

Hi JRC: Thanks for the prompt responses to my latest. Herewith a few follow-ups: 1. Multiple Solomons; Yes, there is ambiguity over multiple Solomons; so arrival of some Solomon at Goshen may be an unreliable guide to Solomon #24's birth year. But what about Bachelor's assertion in A&DCSC that Sol was on the Jamaica tax list as of 1708 (and saying "...therefore, he was born no later than 1688")? That, together with the Carpenter Memorial and the sequence and context in his father's 1732 Will would indicate pretty strongly that Solomon was John's second child, not 5th. 2. Who is John 3rd; When I asked "Who is `John' shown in your table..." I apparently gave the impression I doubted the existence (or data) of John 3rd, (your RIN:12755, son of ABC's John #24). I failed to be clear. My concern is that in your Nov 6 e-mail you list TWO Johns (1st and 3rd entries in your Family #518 list) as sons of John #24 (RIN:12521). Thus, your Family #518 shows 10 offspring rather than 9. You have never said there were 10, so I imagine this is just some glitch in data; it would seem that either #4376 and #12755 are two persons (in which case they are not both sons of John ABC#24, RIN:12521), or they are the same person (in which case the two entries need to be reconciled). 3. Birthdates are Your Estimates; OK, thanks. What about Phebe (#4743)? Her "16 Mar 1700" birthdate is specific; where's that from? 4. "N.E. Marriages" vs "Colonial Families"; OK, that helps. Thanks. 5. Will Synopsis `Quoted with Variation'; Yes, I can see that your synopsis of the 1732 Will was based on Carpenter Memorial. What I meant to suggest is that although ABC omitted Joseph from his summary, in that Joseph known to be cited in the Will, it would probably be best not to repeat the omission. 6. Children Listed in Carp-Mem Order; Well, it doesn't seem your sequence is in fact as given in ABC's Carpenter Memorial. I'm looking at p. 61, and in my copy the ABC order goes; Nehemiah, John, Solomon, Joseph, Increase, Mary, Hannah, Susanna, Phebe. This was the nub of my original need actually to examine the actual Will--ABC's birth order didn't make sense to me, and I wanted to see the actual text. Your suggested birth order makes more sense than Carp-Mem in light of the actual Will. (Although based on the repeated sequence in the Will, and Carp-Mem and "Ancestors & Descendants," it remains my opinion that Solomon is more likely second to John, not 4th after John, Joseph and Increase.) 7. Bachelor as Editor of ADCSC; Ok, that helps. Thanks. Robin

Hi Bruce ! >Does anyone have information on children >of Baldwin III of Flanders, in particular >Raoul de Gouy. Baldwin III, co-count of Flanders [with his father, whom he predeceased.], b.ca 940, d.962; m.961 Matilda (d.1008) dau.of Duke Hermann Billung of Saxony. His father was Ct Arnulf I "the Great" of Flanders, b.885/90, d.964; m.1st NN; m.2d 934 Adele (d.960) dau.of Cte Heribert de Vermandois; all kids were by the 2d marriage. Baldwin III and Matilda Billung had the following kids: 1.Arnulf II the Young, Ct of Flanders and Boulogne, b.961/2, d.987, bur Ghent; m.ca 968 Rozela=Suzanna of Ivrea (d.1003). He was the ancestor of Counts of Flanders & Hainaut, also probably (via his grandson Eudes, Count de Cambrai) the ancestor of Counts de Saint-Pol and Counts de Brienne. 2.Jean de Conteville (John de Bourg), Earl of Comyn, Baron of Toursbourg, b.ca.964/969. He was the ancestor of the family de Burgo/de Burgh (Viscounts de Conteville, Counts de Mortain, Earls of Cornwall, Barons/Earls of Connaught, Earls of Ulster, Lords of Warkworth). 3.Bertha of Flanders, b.ca.1008. I think that Raoul de Gouy was not a son of Baldwin III. The family de Gouy had another ancestry - from Hucbald, Count de Ostervant. They were Counts de Ostervant, Amiens, Vexin, Seigneurs de Crepy and Valois. Ostervant passed from this family (by marriage of Adela de Vexin [dau.of Raoul III "the_Great", of Valois de Crepi, Vitry, Amiens and Vexin] and Herbert IV, Count de Vermandois) to the family de Vermandois, later (also by marriage with Eleonore de Vermandois) to Geoffroy (1147-1163), grandson of Baldwin III [Count of Flanders]. Another possible connection between 'de Flanders' and 'de Gouy' is via Cambrai. One of branches of 'de Flanders' was the family of Counts de Cambrai. Raoul I (d.944), Count de Valois & d'Amiens, son of Hucbald de Osrevant [ancestor of 'de Gouy'] had nickname 'de Cambrai'. His son Raoul (Ralph) de Gouy, fl.ca.926/933, Count of Ostervant, Valois and Vexin, was married to Hildegarde of Flanders (b.ca.934-d.990), sister of Baldwin III. Therefore Raoul was the brother-in-law (not son) of Baldwin III. Raoul and Hildegarde were the ancestors of Counts of Ostrevant, Amiens, Valois and Vexin, Viscounts de Tracy(Tracey), Lords of Sudeley(co.Gloucester), Toddington (co.Gloucester), Chilvers Coton(co.Warwick) and Burton Dasset (co.Warwick). regards, aeg ______________________________________________________

Bruce wrote: > Karl Martel or Charles Martel was King of the Franks. Charles Martel was famous for turning back the Moorish invasion, saving Christendom, etc., but he was not King of the Franks. His title was "Mayor of the Palace". It was his son Pepin the Short who capitalized on the growing power of the Carolingian family to depose the last of the Merovingian kings and seize the throne for himself. > His grandson was > Charlemagne. Thus with a little work we may eventually be able to establish > what is called "Charlemagne descent" for the Carpenter family. I won't hold my breath. Descent from a cousin of the grandfather of Charlemagne doesn't provide a "head start" on descent from Charlemagne himself. For that matter, have you checked the *latest* edition of "Ancestral Roots" (it's up to at least 8 by now)? There are so many erroneous lines in the early editions that those books might as well be discarded (which is why so many copies are available dirt cheap at used book sales). John Chandler

<A HREF="http://www.genexchange.com/ny/">Click here: NYGenExchange</A> Checkout Emingrant Savings Bank: Thomas Carpenter b 1818 County Merth Ireland arrived US 1833 wife M. Madoon or Madron Edmund Williams b 1804 Monmouth Co. NJ Shrewsbury, NJ (no children) wife Lucy C. Carpenter opened an account for Julia Smith Phoebe

Or, Jean le Carpentier, when writing his History of Cambrai, didn't feel he needed to belabor the obvious. When he wrote "Sires de Gouy" or Lords of Gouy, he assumed that his 17th century readers would immediately realize he was talking about descendants of the Counts of Flanders.Just we in the 1990s, in the USA, see these names as remote and exotic. Perhaps Carpentier was only being modest and not saying, "hey, look here folks, we Carpentiers are descendants of the Counts of Flanders"! BC

Do the Herefordshire Carpenters have royal descent? If we accept the Dutch historian Jean le Carpentier’s lineage of the English Carpenters back to Flanders, and all the real historical evidence I have seen thus far supports his views, we are taken back to the Lords of Gouy in the 11th century. In modern times well after Jean le Carpentier’s day, an ancient manuscript was discovered which altered the history of medieval French literature. This document was a chanson de geste or epic narrative entitled RAOUL DE CAMBRAI, a work that was built over time upon basic factual historical events in the 10th century. Raoul was a Lord of Gouy. He was one of the sons of Baldwin III the Count of Flanders who died in 962. The real Raoul de Gouy engaged in a battle with the sons of Count Herbert of Vermandois in 943 over his (Raoul ’s) legal patrimony, the entire incident becoming the subject matter of the literary romance. Jean le Carpentier had no idea of the existence of this literary-historical work and naturally did not mention Raoul de Gouy in his History of Cambrai. One more interesting note is that Count Baldwin was one of the great commercial and industrial innovators of his day. He established the first weavers and fullers in the city of Ghent. He also was responsible for the first commercial fairs in Ypres and Bruges. Sound familiar? The Raoul de Cambrai book is good reading. Try it, because he may be an old friend. Bruce Carpenter