"Also,there are typically 2 wardens, a senior warden and a junior warden." John Tallmage seems to appear in two wills in the Hidden Abstracts collection. One is early 1600s. His last name may be subject to variation and is Tamage in the collection. But it should be him. As an adult in the early 1600s he would have been much senior to William Carpenter b. 1605. He used marks instead of a signiture. Bruce Carpenter

I don't think this is an appropriate topic for the list Susan K.

Hi Everyone, I thought I'd heard that this had already been enacted, but not according to the info below as of 10/26. Read on...... Barb X-Message: #2 Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 15:29:50 -0500 From: "W. DeBusk" <[email protected]> Subject: Birth Records in US > Hello All, > > I am sending this on in case some of you may not have seen it. > > As part of Homeland Security, House Resolution 10 was written. > It > passed the House, is on a fast track, and is guaranteed to pass the > Senate. > > This bill would forever close access to birth records, including > birth records that are over 100 years old. > > I sent an e-mail to my Connecticut Senator. It wasnt hard. I > went to > Google and found his websight, which had places to "fill in the blanks". > > > " The Record Preservation and Access Committee (RPAC) needs > your help > on House Bill 10. As you may know, HB10 seeks to limit access to vital > records in order to protect each of us from identity theft. The way the > bill is > worded, it could limit however, our access to this information for > genealogical > purposes. The RPAC is recomending that the wording in the bill be > adjusted to: > Insert the following language as a new subsection > 890A(b)(2)(E) > of the Homeland Security Act of 2002 (se Title 6, Section 606(a) of > S.2774): > "shal not require a State to change it's law or practice with respect > to public > access to (i) not-certified copies of birth certificates ot to (ii) > birth > certificates or birth records once a period of 100 years has elapsed > from the date > of creation of the certificate or record." > The combined Senate and House committee is meeting to > adjust the > launguage of the bill and the committee members need to hear from the > genealogical community. It is particularly helpful if you live in one > of the states > represented by the committee members. If not, contacting someone you > know in > that state to make their opinion known would be the next most helpful > thing you > could do" > > Senate: > > Collins (ME) > Lieberman (CT) > Lautenberg (NJ) > Levin (MI) > Lott (MS) > DeWine (OH) > Roberts (KS) > Rockefeller (WVA) > Durbin (IL) > Graham (FL) > Sununu (NH) > Voinovich (OH) > Coleman (MN) > > House: > > Hoekstra (MI) > Dreier (CA) > Hyde (IL) > Hunter (CA) > Sensenbrenner (WI) > Harmon (CA) > Skelton (MO) > Menendez (NJ) > > Thank you for your support! ------------------------------

The 1552 Book of Common Prayer of the English church would have been the prayerbook (BCP) in effect at the time in dispute (1628). There is no stated age re: churchwardens, but the services of ordination for Bishops, Priests and Deacons states that no man may be ordained a deacon before the age of 21, and no deacon ordained a priest before the age of 24. The various editions of the BCP can be found here: http://justus.anglican.org/resources/bcp/bcp.htm As the average life span was 45-50 years, I would doubt that ONLY men of considerable years would be appointed churchwardens. Also,there are typically 2 wardens, a senior warden and a junior warden. In the Church nowadays, the titles senior and junior warden are still utililized, but the distinction has nothing to do with age: it has to do with the traditional and canonical roles assigned to those titles. A junior warden, whether 25 or 75, generally manages issues about the church building and property itself. The Senior warden, whether 25 or 75, is more of the secular executive officer. These are non-ordained and volunteer positions. The questions raised by the earlier discussion of the Wiltshire Glebe Terriers entry regarding the Shalbourne vicarge appear to include: 1. Did the order of the names indicate the status of the wardens (i.e., was John Tallmage the senior warden because his name was listed first?) If so, did the same rolls apply to the churchwardens of 1628 as they do today? 2. Were any actual signatures required? Was this a document that was renewed every year to continue to legally bless the continuing use of parish lands, or was this something that had changed recently or perhaps had the vicar changed? It may have been something that required only the 1628 equivalent of a checkmark or initials to indicate acceptance or agreement. ------- I offer this only as speculation, as I'm still stuck at 1820 with my Carpenter ancestor, who apparently appeared as Adam did, without obvious parentage, in TN or NC. I have no opinion on the identity of the Shalbourne churchwarden & whether or not he was a Carpenter or of Reheboth. Barring finding someone's doctorate thesis on churchwardens of Wiltshire (it could be out there--- I found one on the age & status of deacons in 15th century Durham), I think that the evidence found would have to be deemed inconclusive. Pat H.

In reply to Bruce's questions: 1. Immediately to the right of the signature "William Crpener" is a v-shaped character whose respective sides are about 3/8" long; they come together at almost a right angle, with the point oriented in what would be a north-northwesterly direction on a map with a vertical north/south axis. Immediately to the right of this figure are the words "his mark." 2. In the course of almost 20 years of genealogical research, the several churchwardens I have encountered whose ages were known have all been at least in their 50s, sometimes in their 70s or 80s. A Google search using terms "churchwarden" and "age" produces comparable results. That churchwardens were/are typically older men was/is undoubtedly influenced--as with the positions of deacon and elder, for example--by the nature of the office (for which see, under the heading "Churchwardens and Deputies," _http://dioceseofalgoma.com/handbook/organization.htmon_ (http://dioceseofalgoma.com/handbook/organization.htmon) , an Anglican Church web page). Gene Z. In a message dated 10/26/2004 1:00:24 PM Pacific Standard Time, [email protected] writes: X-Message: #1 Date: Tue, 26 Oct 2004 10:00:32 +0900 From: "Bruce E Carpenter" <[email protected]> To: [email protected] Message-ID: <[email protected]> Subject: re. Gene Content-Type: text/plain; charset="Windows-1252" Could Mr. Zubrinsky clarify two matters? 1. What did the mark look like? 2. What source did he use for the age of churchwardens? Bruce Carpenter Japan

> Hi Everyone, > > I hate to send this for 2 reasons....the content.......and also I hope > that no one gets upset because it isn't genealogy, but I REALLY THOUGHT IT > WAS IMPORTANT ENOUGH TO NOTIFY THE LIST. > > Please READ THE INFO BELOW!!!! > > TERROR WARNING!!!!!!!! > > Barb > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "dslack" <[email protected]> > To: <Undisclosed-Recipient:;> > Sent: Wednesday, October 27, 2004 2:34 PM > Subject: Fw: ABCNEWS HOLDS TERROR WARNING TAPE > > > > > > > > > > > > > > http://www.drudgereport.com/abct.htm > > > > XXXXX DRUDGE REPORT XXXXX > > > > WED OCT 27, 2004 12:42:01 ET XXXXX > > > > ABCNEWS HOLDS TERROR WARNING TAPE > > > > **Exclusive** > > > > In the last week before the election, ABCNEWS is holding a videotaped > > message from a purported al Qaeda terrorist warning of a new attack on > > America, the DRUDGE REPORT has learned. > > > > The terrorist claims on tape the next attack will dwarf 9/11. "The > > streets will run with blood," and "America will mourn in silence" > > because they will be unable to count the number of the dead. Further > > claims: America has brought this on itself for electing George Bush who > > has made war on Islam by destroying the Taliban and making war on Al > Qaeda. > > > > ABCNEWS strongly denies holding the tape back from broadcast over > > political concerns during the last days of the election. > > > > The CIA is analyzing the tape, a top federal source tells the DRUDGE > REPORT. > > > > ABCNEWS obtained the tape from a source in Waziristan, Pakistan over the > > weekend, sources tells DRUDGE. > > > > "We have been working 24 hours a day trying to authenticate [the tape]," > > a senior ABCNEWS source said Wednesday morning. > > > > The terrorist's face is concealed by a head dress, and he speaks in an > > American accent, making it difficult to identify the individual. > > > > US intelligence officials believe the man on tape may be Adam Gadhan - > > aka Adam Pearlman, a California native who was highlighted by the FBI in > > May as an individual most likely to be involved in or have knowledge of > > the next al Qaeda attacks. > > > > According to the FBI, Gadahn, 25, attended al-Qaida training camps and > > served as an al-Qaida translator. > > > > The disturbing tape runs an hour -- the man simply identifies himself as > > 'Assam the American.' > > > > > > > > > > --- > > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. > > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > > Version: 6.0.782 / Virus Database: 528 - Release Date: 10/22/2004 > > >

Hi Everyone, I hate to send this for 2 reasons....the content.......and also I hope that no one gets upset because it isn't genealogy, but I REALLY THOUGHT IT WAS IMPORTANT ENOUGH TO NOTIFY THE LIST. Please READ THE INFO BELOW!!!! TERROR WARNING!!!!!!!! Barb ----- Original Message ----- From: "dslack" <[email protected]> To: <Undisclosed-Recipient:;> Sent: Wednesday, October 27, 2004 2:34 PM Subject: Fw: ABCNEWS HOLDS TERROR WARNING TAPE > > > > > > http://www.drudgereport.com/abct.htm > > XXXXX DRUDGE REPORT XXXXX > > WED OCT 27, 2004 12:42:01 ET XXXXX > > ABCNEWS HOLDS TERROR WARNING TAPE > > **Exclusive** > > In the last week before the election, ABCNEWS is holding a videotaped > message from a purported al Qaeda terrorist warning of a new attack on > America, the DRUDGE REPORT has learned. > > The terrorist claims on tape the next attack will dwarf 9/11. "The > streets will run with blood," and "America will mourn in silence" > because they will be unable to count the number of the dead. Further > claims: America has brought this on itself for electing George Bush who > has made war on Islam by destroying the Taliban and making war on Al Qaeda. > > ABCNEWS strongly denies holding the tape back from broadcast over > political concerns during the last days of the election. > > The CIA is analyzing the tape, a top federal source tells the DRUDGE REPORT. > > ABCNEWS obtained the tape from a source in Waziristan, Pakistan over the > weekend, sources tells DRUDGE. > > "We have been working 24 hours a day trying to authenticate [the tape]," > a senior ABCNEWS source said Wednesday morning. > > The terrorist's face is concealed by a head dress, and he speaks in an > American accent, making it difficult to identify the individual. > > US intelligence officials believe the man on tape may be Adam Gadhan - > aka Adam Pearlman, a California native who was highlighted by the FBI in > May as an individual most likely to be involved in or have knowledge of > the next al Qaeda attacks. > > According to the FBI, Gadahn, 25, attended al-Qaida training camps and > served as an al-Qaida translator. > > The disturbing tape runs an hour -- the man simply identifies himself as > 'Assam the American.' > > > > > --- > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > Version: 6.0.782 / Virus Database: 528 - Release Date: 10/22/2004 >

Could Mr. Zubrinsky clarify two matters? 1. What did the mark look like? 2. What source did he use for the age of churchwardens? Bruce Carpenter Japan

This is an old family name that was noted in the records in the early 1600s living near New Amsterdam and Fort Orange (Albany, NY). Hans Kierstead was a surgeon and his wife Sarah grew up in the wilderness to the north. Phyllis Reed

Are you sure the reference wasn't to N. Castle or N. Cassell, New York? I have seen this abbreviation many times since my Bunce family is from New Castle (sometimes New Cassell spelling)and some lazy person along the line used the abbreviation that is generally used for "North". I have Carpenter relatives from this area. Phyllis Reed

Amazingly, only two days after the Wiltshire and Swindon Record Office mailed a photocopy of the original, 1628 glebe terrier of the Shalbourne vicarage, it appeared in my mailbox. As indicated in the published version (_Wiltshire Glebe Terriers 1588-1827_, p. 364), Shalbourne churchwarden William "Crpener" did indeed sign with his mark. This removes the provisional character of my 20 October posting and confirms that "Crpener" was absolutely not the eventual William Carpenter of Rehoboth (b. ca. 1605)--a highly literate man (and much younger in 1628 than the typical churchwarden)--and was probably not his father (for reasons stated in the aforementioned posting). Gene Z.

a.. Name: Clark a.. Sex: M Marriage 1 Amy Carpenter b: 7 NOV 1834 in washademoak Lake, Queens County, NB , Canada Children 1.. Lilly Mae Clark b: 1866 Post-em: Note: Probably William E.CLARKE See PANB record: RS551A - Index to Marriage Bonds, 1810-1932 Name: CARPENTER, AMY E. Year: 1863 Role: BRIDE Origin: QUEENS COUNTY Microfilm: F-9094 Reference: 1863-1860 Related Records: Name:KEITH, MILLAGE B. Role:CO-SIGNER Origin:WESTMORLAND COUNTY Name:CLARKE, WILLIAM E. Role:GROOM Origin:QUEENS COUNTY

Lilly Mae Clark a.. Sex: F a.. Birth: 1866 a.. Death: 1939 in St.John, New Bruswick, Canada Father: Clark Mother: Amy Carpenter b: 7 NOV 1834 in washademoak Lake, Queens County, NB , Canada Marriage 1 William Judson Carpenter b: 1852 a.. Married: ABT 1896 in St. John, NB, Canada Post-em: More information. Lily Mae Clarke born 23 Jul 1866 (Source: New Brunswick Lineages) Died 8 Dec 1939 at St. John, New Brunswick, Canada (Sources: told to me by child. Records of Muriel Saunders. "New Brunswick Lineages")

Birth: 7 NOV 1834 in washademoak Lake, Queens County, NB , Canada Father: Ephraim Carpenter b: 27 JUN 1723 in North Castle, NY Post-em: New information!!! Marriage of what I believe to be Amy Carpenter, born 7 Nov 1834 at Cambridge, Queens, New Brunswick, Canada and husband from PANB! RS551A - Index to Marriage Bonds, 1810-1932 Name: CARPENTER, AMY E. Year: 1863 Role: BRIDE Origin: QUEENS COUNTY Microfilm: F-9094 Reference: 1863-1860 Related Records: Name:KEITH, MILLAGE B. Role:CO-SIGNER Origin:WESTMORLAND COUNTY Name:CLARKE, WILLIAM E. Role:GROOM Origin:QUEENS COUNTY

a.. Name: Ephraim S. Carpenter a.. Birth: 27 JUN 1723 in North Castle, NY 1 a.. Birth: 23 SEP 1793 in Wickham , NB, Canada a.. Death: WFT Est 1724-1813 in Canada 1 a.. Death: 1858 in Canada a.. Fact 10: 27 JUL 1723 Long Island, NY Post-em: WRONG RECORD here!!! WFT is wrong!!! Ephraim S Carpenter was born 23 Sep 1793 at Wickham, NB, Canada, son of Archelaus Carpenter, born ca 1772 at New Castle, Westchester, NY and Sibyl Shalor,(hence the S for middle initial!)born ca 1771 probably at New Castle, Westchester, NY . They were married 20 Jan 1792 at Gagetown, NB. (This Archelaus Carpenter was son of Archelaus Carpenter,(Loyalist) born 23 Apr 1734, Oyster Bay, LI, NY(of Northcastle?) and Rebecca Goulding, born 5 May 1737 of North Castle, Westchester, NY.) Ephraim S. married 20 Sep 1814 at Hampton, NB, Canada to Ann Kierstead, daughter of James Kierstead (Loyalist) Ephraim S Carpenter died 8 Apr 1858 and is buried at MacDonald's Corner Baptist Cemetery, Queens County as is his wife Ann.

Hi, all! I received a series of post-ems on my site today. Thought I would pass on the information to the list! Ida Myrte Carpenter a.. Birth: 25 SEP 1897 in Godola point, St. John, NB, Canada a.. Death: SEP 1971 in Mattapoisette, Mass. Post-em: This information was given to Jan Robison by me. There are some "errors in transmission" here. Name is Ida MYRTLE Carpenter (my grandmother). Her birthplace was GONDOLA Point, now Quispamsis, in house that her father built. Birth record now in PANB. Her parents were married 3 Apr 1882 NOT 1896. Her husband's name was transposed on military records. Was actually William Charles and he was known as "Bill".

On 10 September 2004, Bruce wrote: Just finished a two week driving tour of England and managed a trip to Shalbourne, a thoroughly charming place. Made the discovery that William of Rehoboth was a "churchwarden" of the parish. Bruce Carpenter Clinton, WA On 16 September 2004, he contributed the following: Wiltshire Glebe Terriers 1588-1827 Steven Hobbs ed. Wiltshire Record Society vol. 56 Trowbridge, 2003 p. 367 "SHALBOURNE vicarage 655 6 Jun 1628 (D5/102/8) 3 ½ a. in the E. end field upon Cutton Hill. 2a. in the field E. End Townsend. 4a. 1yd. In Shalbourne N. field. 1a. upon the barrows in E, field. ½ a. at the vicarage gate. Vicars croft by Newtown common, 6a. Church lands: 2 a. of arable lying in Rowlands within the gate, the hedge on the one side and Edward Ranger's land on the other. Parsonage land: 1a. of arable in the E. end field at Townsend. 1a. of arable in the W. field at W. end. Roland Hyll, vicar, John Tallmage, (X), William Crpener1 (X), churchwardens. 1. Probably Carpenter. The marriage of a William Carpenter was recorded in the parish register in 1625. _______________________ Having reviewed the relevant pages of _Wiltshire Glebe Terriers 1588-1827_ (the quoted material is on p. 364), I think it's safe to say that churchwarden William "Crpener" certainly was not William2 Carpenter of Rehoboth (and perhaps is not a Carpenter). The volume's introduction (p. xix) states that "[s]ignatories making their marks are indicated by [X]." If the bracketed X following "William Crpener" is appropriate, it virtually assures that he was not William Carpenter of Rehoboth. That the latter man was highly literate is well known; he (b. ca. 1605) would certainly have been able to sign his name at the age of about 23. Churchwardens, moreover, were typically 25 and more years older than that. While one might wonder if "William Crpener" was William1 Carpenter, father of William of Rehoboth and about 52 in 1628, there are two reasons to doubt it: First, the same problem as above exists to a lesser degree here: while it is quite plausible that William1 was not as literate as his namesake son, it is unlikely that the father of such an educated son could not write his own name. Second, the suffix "Sr.," "the elder," or the like does not appear. This is consistent with the following: "Only the last of the six Shalbourne records [Bishop's Transcripts] naming William2, that of son Samuel's baptism [1 March 1636/7], distinguishes him as 'Junior.' From this and the absence of a Shalbourne baptismal record for William2, it is likely that William1 joined his son at Shalbourne sometime between 1634 [son Joseph bp. 6 April 1634] and 1636/7 and that neither was native to the parish" (TAG 70[1995]:194). Has anyone undertaken to obtain from the Wiltshire and Swindon Record Office, Trowbridge, a copy of the original record (D5/10/2/8)? The published version should be checked against it. Gene Z.

Recieved Ora addie's Obituary she died 1945 not 1915 Headstone must have faded Bennigton Banner ,March 5 1945,Bennington,Vermont " Mrs. ,Ora Bugbee :" Mrs. Ora Ada Bugbee, 52, died Thursday evening at Putnam Memorial Hospital. She was the wife of John Bugbee of Woodford City and the ,daughter of Draper Carpenter and Carrie Harvey Carpenter. She was born in Pownal in II: 1893. Besides her husband she is survived by two sons: Carl Bugbee of Woodford and Lewis Sprague of Bennington. She was one of a family of 20 children. Funeral services will be held at the 'Walbridge Funeral Home on Main street Sunday afternoon at 2 o'clock. Rev. George Burke, retired Methodist minister will Officiate. The body will be placed in the vault at Park Lawn cemetery and in the spring burial will be at ;WoodfordCity. The bearers were Jesse A. Bugbee, Perry Bugbee, Frank Lorette and Glenn Temple, all ofWoodford. ~"'

Just got Obituary on Ora she died Feb 1945 not 1915 as I had previously stated The stone at her grave was faded . B 1893 0f John Draper Carpenter and Carrie Harvey in Ponwal,Bennington,VT copies of her obituary will be available with SASE John L. Carpenter PO Box 912 Walpole,NH 03608 My Web pages http://www.familytreemaker.com/users/c/a/r/John-L-Carpenter/index.html > > http://expage.com/page/carpenterlinks > > http://homepages.msn.com/PicnicPl/jcarp45

> John, and "family", one of the first thing that communist Russia did > after invading another nation was to destroy their history books and > related documents. Afterward, they would re-write history to portrait > communism as their salvation. Who says communism is dead. It didn't die > in Russia and it lives well here.> > H.R. 10 was passed without the requested change to allow accress to > genealogical vital records 100 years or older. > > Please pass this on to other genealogical lists and those interested. > > John R. Carpenter > La Mesa, CA > > Go to the following links and post a message for the sponsor and > cosponsors of HR 10. You may need to follow the link a point or two. > Some have e-mails and others have forms to fill out. Remember to ask > for a response. This shows that you are interested in what happens! > > United States House of Representatives - Representative Office Listing > at the following web page: > http://www.house.gov/house/MemberWWW.shtml > > Sponsor of HR 10: Rep Hastert, J. Dennis [IL-14] > http://www.house.gov/hastert/contact.shtml > > COSPONSORS(26), ALPHABETICAL: > Rep Blunt, Roy [MO-7] - 9/24/2004 > Web Site: www.house.gov/blunt > E-mail: [email protected] > Rep Boehner, John A. [OH-8] - 9/24/2004 > http://johnboehner.house.gov/contact.asp > Rep Burr, Richard [NC-5] - 10/4/2004 > email: [email protected] > Rep Cox, Christopher [CA-48] - 9/24/2004 > http://cox.house.gov/html/contact_email.cfm > > Rep Davis, Tom [VA-11] - 9/24/2004 > http://tomdavis.house.gov/davis_contents/center/feedback/ > Rep DeLay, Tom [TX-22] - 9/24/2004 > http://www.majorityleader.gov/CONTACT.ASP?a=form > > Rep Dreier, David [CA-26] - 9/24/2004 > http://dreier.house.gov/talkto.htm > Rep Gingrey, Phil [GA-11] - 10/5/2004 > http://www.house.gov/gingrey/IMA/issue.htm > > Rep Goodlatte, Bob [VA-6] - 10/4/2004 > Rep Green, Mark [WI-8] - 10/4/2004 > Rep Hoekstra, Peter [MI-2] - 9/24/2004 > Rep Hunter, Duncan [CA-52] - 9/24/2004 > Rep Hyde, Henry J. [IL-6] - 9/24/2004 > Rep Issa, Darrell E. [CA-49] - 10/4/2004 > Rep McInnis, Scott [CO-3] - 10/4/2004 > Rep Miller, Candice S. [MI-10] - 10/5/2004 > Rep Nussle, Jim [IA-1] - 9/24/2004 > Rep Oxley, Michael G. [OH-4] - 9/24/2004 > Rep Pickering, Charles W. (Chip) [MS-3] - 10/4/2004 > Rep Pryce, Deborah [OH-15] - 9/24/2004 > Rep Ramstad, Jim [MN-3] - 10/6/2004 > Rep Sensenbrenner, F. James, Jr. [WI-5] - 9/24/2004 > Rep Sessions, Pete [TX-32] - 10/4/2004 > Rep Smith, Christopher H. [NJ-4] - 9/24/2004 > Rep Thomas, William M. [CA-22] - 9/24/2004 > Rep Young, C. W. Bill [FL-10] - 9/24/2004 > > > Sample letter: > > I support your intention to increase security to protect the U.S. from > terrorists and those who wish to improperly take U.S. identities, I am > also concerned that those researching their family's history continue > to have access to non-certified birth records that are than 100 years > old or older. > > Therefore, I ask that you amend HR-10 Section 3063(d)(2) (I hope I got > the right section!) by adding the following or similar wording to the > existing paragraph: > > 'However, nothing in this Chapter 2 shall be construed to require a > State to change its law with respect to public access to (A) > non-certified copies of birth certificates or to (B) birth > certificates or birth records once a period of 100 years has elapsed > from the date of creation of thecertificate or record depending on > State initiatives.' > > I believe that this additional language is imperative so that the > states do not over react by restricting all certificates to comply > with the law, rather than dealing with certified as opposed to > non-certified birth certificates. This proposed amendatory language > would remind the States that they can and should treat older records > differently. > > Please let me know when this is done! > > Thank You!