In a message dated 3/3/2005 4:02:01 A.M. Pacific Standard Time, [email protected] writes: I'm confused. Amos Carpenter claimed that William2 "was in the colony only three years when he was elected to the general Court of Plymouth (Memorial p. 38)." Does this mean that William2 was a representative of Weymouth or does it mean he was a general member of the Plymouth Court? This was I presume before any deliberations for the move to Rehoboth. This whole matter should be gone over carefully in the Plymouth records. Bruce Carpenter Amos B. Carpenter errs in saying that William2, then of Weymouth, was elected to the General Court of Plymouth. Weymouth was part of Massachusetts Bay Colony, and it was that colony's general court, convened at Boston, to which he was a deputy from Weymouth in 1641 and 1643. He was a deputy from Rehoboth to the General Court of Plymouth Colony in 1645. (ABC's account of William2's role in securing permission to purchase Seekonk [renamed Rehoboth, 1645] is highly speculative and confused. It was the Plymouth court that in 1641 granted John Brown and Edward Winslow permission to settle Seekonk; as above, William2 was at this time residing in Massachusetts Bay Colony. There is no reason to believe that he had any influence whatsoever on decisions made by the court at Plymouth.) Gene Z.

Charles wrote: >Surely the fact that Weymouth was not in Plymouth Colony at the time is of >some relevance. Yes, it is. In looking back at the words of ABC as quoted by Bruce, I see that ABC was explicitly wrong about the General Court to which William was elected. It was clearly the General Court of the Massachusetts Bay Colony. The Plymouth Colony also had a General Court, but Weymouth was not represented in it. In any case, I feel sure that William was indeed chosen for the General Court, since Savage is seldom wrong about such things. John Chandler

What about 17th century usage of the word "captain"? What does the OED have to say? BC

In a previous posting ("So-Called Captain William Carpenter," 2/19/05), I quoted Amos B. Carpenter as saying that "[a]bout 1642, William Carpenter (No. 16), (b. in 1605 [sic]) was appointed Captain for one or more years by the General Court of Massachusetts at Boston. This appointment was made necessary by the attempt of Samuel Gorton and his followers to seize portions of the lands included in the Providence Plantations" . . . (_Carpenter Memorial_, 42). I went on to say in that posting that "in checking _Records of the Governor and Company of the Massachusetts Bay in New England, 1628-1686_, Nathaniel B. Shurtleff, ed., 5 vols. in 6 (Boston, 1853-1854), I found no record whatsoever of a William Carpenter's having been made a captain. And if a William Carpenter had been made a temporary captain in 1642, to assist in putting down Gorton's encroachments on Providence Plantations, it would not have been William Carpenter of Rehoboth but William Carpenter of Providence." But having recently noticed Herbert F. Seversmith's statement that William2 of Rehoboth "was commissioned by the Essex court as Captain in 1642," I was prepared to eat my words as to which of the two William Carpenters was more likely to have been made a captain (see Seversmith, _Colonial Families of Long Island, New York and Connecticut_, volume 2 [1939], 552). A search of _Records and Files of the Quarterly Courts of Essex County, Massachusetts, Volume 1 (1636-1656)_ (Salem, 1911), however, turned up nothing. While Seversmith's original work is far more reliable than Amos Carpenter's (the former was one of the best genealogists of his time), the idea that a Weymouth man would receive a commission in Essex County is puzzling. (In 1643, when the first Massachusetts counties were formed, Weymouth became a part of Suffolk County. The early county (quarterly) court records, however, predate the formation of the counties.) In any case, even if a record were to be found of William2's having been commissioned a captain in 1642 (perhaps in Suffolk Co. court records?), I would still argue that it is inappropriate to refer to him as Captain William Carpenter. So far as I'm aware, not a single Weymouth, Rehoboth, or Plymouth Colony record refers to William2 by that title. Any such appointment (heretofore unsubstantiated) would therefore have been too brief to constitute a significant aspect of his identity. If his contemporaries never referred to him as "Captain," what good reason is there for our doing so? Gene Z.

Bruce wrote: > I'm confused. Amos Carpenter claimed that William2 "was in the colony only > three years when he was elected to the general Court of Plymouth (Memorial > p. 38)." Does this mean that William2 was a representative of Weymouth or > does it mean he was a general member of the Plymouth Court? The Separation of Powers was not practiced in those days. The General Court was both a legislative and a judicial body, and it consisted of elected representatives of the various towns. > presume before any deliberations for the move to Rehoboth. Right. Rehoboth would not have had a representative until after it was officially constituted as a town. > This whole matter > should be gone over carefully in the Plymouth records. Even without perusing the colony records, I can report that Savage says William1 (!) was elected representative in 1641 and 1643. It's clear that either the list of the General Court is found in the Colony records for those years or the Weymouth town records show the election of William Carpenter (or both). It's not clear whether anything in the records identifies the representative as William2. If the only record is the list of members in the Colony records, then there are surely no corroborating details, and probably not even a notation that William was from Weymouth. (Note that Savage thinks it was William1 who died in 1659/60 and supposes that William2's death escaped detection somehow. Although Savage was "clearly" wrong about that identification, this demonstrates how easy it is to go astray when connecting the names in the records to the persons in a genealogy.) John Chandler

I'm confused. Amos Carpenter claimed that William2 "was in the colony only three years when he was elected to the general Court of Plymouth (Memorial p. 38)." Does this mean that William2 was a representative of Weymouth or does it mean he was a general member of the Plymouth Court? This was I presume before any deliberations for the move to Rehoboth. This whole matter should be gone over carefully in the Plymouth records. Bruce Carpenter

<< I don't recall the specific items relating to William2 Carpenter of Rehoboth, except that among the lists of vital records transmitted from the towns to colony authorities (found in volume 8), one or two of those from Rehoboth were transcribed and forwarded by him in his capacity as town clerk. >> Sorry, my recollection was flawed. Rehoboth vital records copied into Plymouth Colony Records are from the 1670s and 1680s and were submitted by William3 Carpenter, who had become town clerk in 1668. Gene Z. In a message dated 3/1/2005 12:34:17 P.M. Pacific Standard Time, GeneZub writes: Several years ago I obtained the FHL films of Plymouth Colony Records (PCR) for my local Family History Center. All are on microfiches, except for volume 9 (if memory serves), which is on a reel of microfilm and must be ordered separately. The microfiches are fifteen cents each and automatically remain at the Family History Center to which they are sent. The cost of putting the film reel on indefinite loan is $10.50. My searches of PCR for Carpenters have always involved specific people rather than a surname canvass. I don't recall the specific items relating to William2 Carpenter of Rehoboth, except that among the lists of vital records transmitted from the towns to colony authorities (found in volume 8), one or two of those from Rehoboth were transcribed and forwarded by him in his capacity as town clerk. Incidentally, The Winthrop Papers, vol. 4 (1638-1644), contains nothing relating to William1 of Providence. The one item pertaining to William2 of Rehoboth (then of Weymouth) has nothing to do with a captaincy. Gene Z. << Has anyone looked through the 12 volumes (or 12 bound as 10) of the Plymouth Colony Records for Carpenter? The used book price is 1500 for the set. I may purchase them for my university library this spring and have access. Does anyone have or evrn seen a set? Probably not. Bruce Carpenter Nara Japan Clinton Washington

"Incidentally, The Winthrop Papers, vol. 4 (1638-1644), contains nothing relating to William1 of Providence." Many thanks to Gene. I hope he doesn't neglect the subsequent volumes which, as I recall, have a number of William1 of Providence references, and more interestingly material relating to his father-in-law and their relationship. I should give an accounting of all these and will after my return to my Japan residence. BC

Several years ago I obtained the FHL films of Plymouth Colony Records (PCR) for my local Family History Center. All are on microfiches, except for volume 9 (if memory serves), which is on a reel of microfilm and must be ordered separately. The microfiches are fifteen cents each and automatically remain at the Family History Center to which they are sent. The cost of putting the film reel on indefinite loan is $10.50. My searches of PCR for Carpenters have always involved specific people rather than a surname canvass. I don't recall the specific items relating to William2 Carpenter of Rehoboth, except that among the lists of vital records transmitted from the towns to colony authorities (found in volume 8), one or two of those from Rehoboth were transcribed and forwarded by him in his capacity as town clerk. Incidentally, The Winthrop Papers, vol. 4 (1638-1644), contains nothing relating to William1 of Providence. The one item pertaining to William2 of Rehoboth (then of Weymouth) has nothing to do with a captaincy. Gene Z. << Has anyone looked through the 12 volumes (or 12 bound as 10) of the Plymouth Colony Records for Carpenter? The used book price is 1500 for the set. I may purchase them for my university library this spring and have access. Does anyone have or evrn seen a set? Probably not. Bruce Carpenter Nara Japan Clinton Washington

Has anyone looked through the 12 volumes (or 12 bound as 10) of the Plymouth Colony Records for Carpenter? The used book price is 1500 for the set. I may purchase them for my university library this spring and have access. Does anyone have or evrn seen a set? Probably not. Bruce Carpenter Nara Japan Clinton Washington

Gene wrote: > therefore not surprised when, in checking _Records of the Governor and Company of > the Massachusetts Bay in New England, 1628-1686_, Nathaniel B. Shurtleff, ed., > 5 vols. in 6 (Boston, 1853-1854), I found no record whatsoever of a William > Carpenter's having being made a captain. And if a William Carpenter had been > made a temporary captain in 1642, to assist in putting down Gorton's > encroachments on Providence Plantations, it would not have been William Carpenter of > Rehoboth but William Carpenter of Providence. ABC's own description of the > matter (and those of others) makes that clear. Another point to consider: when the Massachusetts authorities decided in 1644 to put an end to the Gortonites, they sent a company of their own militia with its own captain. It's not clear to me what good a "captain" would be without the personnel to make the military force. Surely, Providence had its own militia in 1642 (composed of all the able-bodied men in the town). John Chandler

Mr. Zubrinsky's comments were interesting. It would be instructive if the other claimed appointments and offices William of Rehoboth held are substantiated by historical record. It would also be of interest if any historical documents, i.e. wills, are extant from the hand of Rehoboth William, if he indeed held such offices. There exists material relative to Gorton and William of Providence in the WINTROP PAPERS, an essential source for both Williams. Unfortunately my edition is in Japan, where I am not at the moment. I have a vague recollection that William of Prov. received some manner of official appointment re: the Gorton incident. Bruce Carpenter Clinton. WA

It is the habit of some people (perhaps originating with John R. Carpenter) to refer to William2 Carpenter of Weymouth and Rehoboth (b. ca. 1605) as "Captain." Presumably this is based on Amos B. Carpenter's assertion that "[a]bout 1642, William Carpenter (No. 16), (b. in 1605 [sic]) was appointed Captain for one or more years by the General Court of Massachusetts at Boston. This appointment was made necessary by the attempt of Samuel Gorton and his followers to seize portions of the lands included in the Providence Plantations" . . . (_Carpenter Memorial_, 42). ABC spends most of page 42 and half of the following page elaborating on the machinations of Gorton and steps to fend them off taken by Providence colonists and the Massachusetts Bay Colony. That ABC provides only an approximate year, rather than a precise date, made me doubt that his assertion is based on documentary evidence. I was therefore not surprised when, in checking _Records of the Governor and Company of the Massachusetts Bay in New England, 1628-1686_, Nathaniel B. Shurtleff, ed., 5 vols. in 6 (Boston, 1853-1854), I found no record whatsoever of a William Carpenter's having being made a captain. And if a William Carpenter had been made a temporary captain in 1642, to assist in putting down Gorton's encroachments on Providence Plantations, it would not have been William Carpenter of Rehoboth but William Carpenter of Providence. ABC's own description of the matter (and those of others) makes that clear. It is therefore inappropriate not only to refer to William2 of Rehoboth as "Captain" but also to apply that title to William1 of Providence in the absence of supporting evidence. And even if such evidence were found, the rank would have been held so briefly and incidentally as to be but a blip on the screen of Providence William's biography. Gene Z.

Thanks, Phoebe. I've done research in the NEHGS manuscript collection but not on the Carpenters. Gene Z. In a message dated 2/18/2005 6:01:36 P.M. Pacific Standard Time, Mzzcortezz writes: Gene, I just searched the NEGHS website, manuscripts lib., and found a few references for Carpenters, even one for Bloomingrove, NY. I wonder if you have ever seen any of these papers? Keep up the good work! Hi, Margaret, Phoebe in CA

Gene, I just searched the NEGHS website, manuscripts lib., and found a few references for Carpenters, even one for Bloomingrove, NY. I wonder if you have ever seen any of these papers? Keep up the good work! Hi, Margaret, Phoebe in CA

Dear Margaret, Thank you for the kind words. Except for the details of John3 Carpenter's migration from Rehoboth to Long Island (in an extended footnote of my 1995 TAG article, "The Family of William2 Carpenter of Rehoboth, Massachusetts"), I have done no research on this Carpenter line. But all the lines through the children of William2 and Abigail (Briant) Carpenter, the John3 line is the only one personally researched by Herbert Seversmith, one of the finest genealogists of the first half of the twentieth century. For the lines of John3's siblings, Seversmith repeats (with disclaimer) the work of Amos B. Carpenter--except the Abiah3 line, for which he repeats the work of the deForests (some of which is corrected in my Abiah Carpenter article). His work on the Carpenters is found in _Colonial Families of Long Island, New York and Connecticut,_ 5 vols. (Washington, D.C., 1939-1958), 2:535-77, 1010-13, 3:1458-59 (see also notebooks 7 and 10 for isolated, unnumbered pages [one each]); all is available on FHL film. As part of his discussion of John5 Carpenter of Jamaica, L.I., and Goshen, N.Y. (b. ca. 1683), son of John4 (John3, William2-1) and Mary (Rhodes) Carpenter, Seversmith says the following: "An examination of the connections recited for this family in _The Carpenter Genealogy_ by Amos B. Carpenter, leads only to the conclusion that Mr. Carpenter was much too trusting in the acceptance of the compilations sent by his correspondents. It is stated that the John Carpenter of the present connection married Ruth Coe. That a John Carpenter was a brother-in-law of Benjamin Carpenter of Jamaica seems assured; and [on] 29 April 1723, John Carpenter, then of Jamaica, made an exchange of land with Benjamin Coe. It may be that John Carpenter was of Goshen in 1722 and of Jamaica in 1723; but as there were three John Carpenters of age at this time, and as one of them cannot be shown to have left Jamaica at the latter date, it is *not* safe to state that the present John Carpenter married Ruth Coe. This John Carpenter is stated to have become the sheriff of Orange County, which is probably correct. The date of his death is unknown, and the names of his children remain *unproved*. It must be pointed out, however, that chronology will permit the following to have been children of this John Carpenter: i. Daniel . . . . ii. Increase . . . . Perhaps other children. It is difficult to believe, however, that this John Carpenter, born about 1683, was the father of Ruth who married Ephraim Marston 15 January *1781*; or of Isaac, born at Jamaica (!) 31 March 1747; John, born at the same place, 23 February, 1745; Benjamin, born about 1750, Moses, who died at the battle of Oriskany, and Susanna who died 17 March 1790, as the wife of a Howell. It remains for some interested researcher to establish the correct listing of the descendants of this John Carpenter" (see also corrections at 2:1010-11). I'm not aware of more recently published material indicating that the "interested researcher" Seversmith hoped for has come along. Perhaps it will be you. Gene Z. In a message dated 2/18/2005 8:00:53 A.M. Pacific Standard Time, [email protected] writes: Dear Gene, I have been waiting for your article in NEHGR about John Carpenters. I had hoped a mention would be made of the John Carpenter I am interested in. There were altogether too many John Carpenters. According to Amos, William Carpenter of Rehoboth had a son John Carpenter who married Hannah (Smith) who had a son John Carpenter who married Mary Rhodes who had a son John Carpenter, etc. I have some disagreement with Amos but no proof. I need to know which John Carpenter married Ruth Coe, perhaps in 1735. In your careful and valuable research did you come across any of these John Carpenters? Margaret Cass

Dear Gene, I have been waiting for your article in NEHGR about John Carpenters. I had hoped a mention would be made of the John Carpenter I am interested in. There were altogether too many John Carpenters. According to Amos, William Carpenter of Rehoboth had a son John Carpenter who married Hannah (Smith) who had a son John Carpenter who married Mary Rhodes who had a son John Carpenter, etc. I have some disagreement with Amos but no proof. I need to know which John Carpenter married Ruth Coe, perhaps in 1735. In your careful and valuable research did you come across any of these John Carpenters? Margaret Cass

Harry Carpenter was b Stanstead, Quebec 12 April 1802, the son of Comfort and Thankful (Kent/Canfield) Carpenter. He mar. (1) Esther Wright and had 3 children by her: Thankful Emily, Harriet Pamelia and Amos Wright who was b 6 March 1836 in the US. About 2 years ago, I found a record for a 2nd marriage for Harry. He mar. Angeline Barbeau 25 Jan 1847 (Bedford Dist. Records). Beyond this meager information, I knew nothing else of Harry Carpenter. Today while researching the family of his brother, Charles, who resided in Keeseville, Clinton Co., NY, I found Harry and Angeline Carpenter recorded in the 1870 census living in Peru, Clinton Co., NY. They had the following children: Charles b CAN ca 1852; Malvina b CAN ca 1856; William b CAN ca 1858; Louisa b CAN ca 1864; Susan b NY ca 1866. In 1880 Angeline Carpenter was recorded in Peru as a widow working as a servant in the household of David Nelson. Her son William lived in the same household. Daughter Susan was also recorded in Peru as a servant in another household. The Carpenter Memorial lists just the 3 children Harry had with Esther Wright so I hope this additional information helps another researcher to make a family connection. If anyone can add to this information about Harry Carpenter and his children, I would love to hear from you. The Carpenter line from William of Rehoboth is: William-Samuel-Samuel-Timothy-Amos-Comfort-Harry-Amos Wright-Amos Frank-Millie mar. Arthur Deverell-Alice Deverell mar. Norman Gilbert-me Marcia Briggs Briggs Marcia [email protected] http://home.mindspring.com/~mbriggs3 http://home.mindspring.com/~phil1180

I have some interesting updates on the Carpenter line that David Fouts was researching. Does any one know his current e-mail address? John R. Carpenter La Mesa, CA ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mail Administrator" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Wednesday, February 16, 2005 1:04 PM Subject: Mail System Error - Returned Mail > Recipient: <[email protected]> > Reason: 5.3.0 <[email protected]>... Addressee unknown, > relay=[68.230.241.27] >

Hello Ethel, This data is mostly from the CE CD 2001 which comprises data from The VA/WV Carpenter branch (see full title below) by Paul Mowrey (1997) and the Carpenter Memorial by Amos B. Carpenter (1898). I hope this helps. John R. Carpenter La Mesa, CA 1. Sarah Ann Simpson-11081 was born on 22 Dec 1806 in , , MD and was christened on 23 Jan 1807 in of, , OH. She died on 7 May 1887 in , Meigs, OH and was buried in School Lot Cem., Columbia Twp., Meigs, OH. AF has birth as Jan 1807 in ME or VA. The Carpenter Memorial has 22 Dec 1806. Sarah Ann was the granddaughter of Andrew Simpson who emigrated to America from Ireland with his parents. Andrew married Agnes Ayers and were the parents of Robert and John Simpson. Robert Simpson married Lydia Longfellow, the father and mother of Sarah Ann. John Simpson married Abigail Guild, they were the parents of 4 children. Their third child, Hannah Simpson married Jesse Grant. Hannah and Jesse Grant were the parents of Gen. Ulysses S. Grant, former president of the United States of America. Sarah Ann's children are second cousins to former President U.S. Grant. Sarah married (MRIN:4834) Jeremiah Carpenter-11080, son of Amos Carpenter-11075 and Margaret McGlaughlin-11076 (MRIN:4831), on 18 Feb 1823 in , Meigs, OH. Jeremiah was born on 7 May 1803 in , Botetourt, VA and was christened on 5 May 1803 in , Kanawha, VA. He died on 23 Jul 1884 in Columbia Twp., Meigs, OH. Number 8059 in the Carpenter Memorial on page 762. Family on page 763 (#1592). 5 May 1803 in CM & 7 May 1803 in Mowrey book. Jeremiah moved with his parents to Rutland Twp., Meigs county, OH, where he settled in 1806. He received a good common school education. At marriage he located in Columbia Twp., Meigs county, OH, and was prominent in advancing the enterprizes of the county. He was early identified with the Baptisit Church and was for many years a minister of that dedomination. By their energy and perseverance in their pioneer life they accumulated a valuable estate. CENSUS: 1830 Census of Columbia Township, Meigs county, Ohio page 268. Jeremiah Carpenter, 1 male 5-10, 1 male 20-30, 1 female 20-30. !CENSUS: 1850 Census of Sutton Township, Meigs county, Ohio (# 1261-1261). Jeremiah age 47 VA farmer with family. BOOK: See page 47 (for notes) of the Mowrey 1997 book. See book information below: UPDATE OF THE GENEALOGY OF THE NEW ENGLAND CARPENTER FAMILY OF ENGLISH ORIGIN - THE VIRGINIA / WEST VIRGINIA BRANCH - SOME DESCENDANTS OF JOSEPH CARPENTER - PIONEER OF THE JACKSON RIVER - MOWREY"S VERSION. BY TERRY LEE CARPENTER AND PAUL THOMAS MOWREY. PRO BONO PUBLICO - PRIVATELY PUBLISHED, DOVER, OHIO, 1997. BY PAUL THOMAS MOWREY. Jeremiah and Sarah had the following children: + 2 M i. John Wesley Carpenter-11094 was born on 29 Nov 1823. 3 M ii. Abraham E. Carpenter-11096 was born on 20 Oct 1825 in Columbia Twp., Meigs, OH. He died on 27 Jan 1826 in Columbia Twp., Meigs, OH and was buried in School Lot Cem, Columbia Twp., Meigs, OH. Number 8061 in the Carpenter Memorial. Page 763 Listed as Abraham L. in the CM. 4 M iii. William Albert Carpenter-11097 was born on 21 Jan 1827 in Columbia Twp., Meigs, OH. He died on 21 Jul 1827 in Columbia Twp., Meigs, OH and was buried in School Lot Cem, Columbia Twp., Meigs, OH. Number 8062 in the Carpenter Memorial. Page 763 + 5 F iv. Lydia Margaret Carpenter-11098 was born in 1829 and died on 10 Mar 1915. + 6 F v. Nancy Ann Carpenter-11100 was born in 1831 and died about 1910. + 7 M vi. Robert Simpson Carpenter-11102 was born in 1834 and died in 1909. + 8 F vii. Maria Benedict Carpenter-11104 was born in 1836 and died about 12 Mar 1910. + 9 M viii. Jeremiah Longfellow Carpenter Jr.-11106 was born in 1839 and died in 1919. 10 F ix. Sarah A. Carpenter-11108 was born on 2 Jan 1850 in Columbia Twp., Meigs, OH. She died on 3 Jan 1850 in Columbia Twp., Meigs, OH and was buried in School Lot Cem, Columbia Twp., Meigs, OH. Sarah is not listed in the Carpenter Memorial. ----- Original Message ----- From: "ethel l flannery" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Saturday, January 08, 2005 1:15 PM Subject: Jeremiah Carpenter died July 23, 1884 > Hi, > Does anyone know who these Carpenters belong to? They are buried > in the School Lots Cemetery in Carpenter, OH. On one side of a tall > monument it says "father Jeremiah Carpenter died July 23, 1884 aged 81 y > 2m 25d" "mother Sarah Ann Simpson wife of J. Carpenter died May 7, 1887 > aged 80 y 4m 15 d" > On another side it says "children of J. & S.A. Carpenter--Abraham > L. born Oct 30, 1825 died Jan 27 1826; William A. born Jan 2, 1827 died > July 21, 1827; Sarah A. born Jan 2, 1850 died Jan 3, 1850" These > children had individual stones a few feet away. > On another side it said "Jeremiah L. Carpenter son of J. & S.A. > Carpenter died Sept 28, 1919 aged 80 y 5 m 10 d" > On the ground near the tall monument were two stones "Jeremiah L. > Carpenter 1839-1919" & "Mary Hauk Carpenter 1844-1931" I have pictures > of these stones if anyone is interested. > My great grandparents were Solomon and Sudna Hughes Carpenter. > I'm descended down through their daughter Margaret who married Joseph > Riffe. Any info will be much appreciated. > > Thanks Ethel Flannery [email protected] > > ______________________________