Bowen in his first volume of Early Rehoboth relates, "The town of Swansea was founded on the basis of a class division of inhabitants that existed nowhere else in New England." (up. 26) The founders of Swansea, an area in Rehoboth, were Thomas Willet, Stephen Paine, John Brown, John Allen and John Butterworth. Willet was Brown's son-in-law. The area was originally going to be part of Rehoboth. However religious differences made for a new town. Basically the individuals above were going to make themselves manor lords and assign lesser men small pieces of the property. This was March 1667/8. BC

In Bliss I found yet another reference to "Goodman Paine". This was 1662. These widely spaced references to Goodman Paine, and to no one else except William Carpenter, point to these two individuals receiving a special deference in the plantation. It is unmistakable and I believe based on family situations in England. Reference below: " The 28th of the 5th mo.[July] 1662. It was voted that John Woodstock........and Goodman Paine and Lieutenant Hunt were chosen to see where the convenient place for it might be." (Bliss, p. 52)

Bruce, You may want to check if they have it at: http://www.rootsweb.com/~maplymou/ and the link going to ... http://home.att.net/~Local_History/MA-Plymouth-Co.htm John R. Carpenter La Mesa, CA ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bruce E. Carpenter" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Sunday, February 27, 2005 11:08 PM Subject: Plymouth Colony Records > Has anyone looked through the 12 volumes (or 12 bound as 10) of the > Plymouth > Colony Records for Carpenter? The used book price is 1500 for the set. I > may > purchase them for my university library this spring and have access. Does > anyone have or evrn seen a set? Probably not. > Bruce Carpenter > Nara Japan > Clinton Washington >

'Trouble is, the vast majority of men in colonial New England (including other William Carpenters) were husbandmen and yeomen. "Goodman" and "goodwife" were thus only slightly more distinctive than the church-related "brother" and "sister" (church membership was virtually universal).' Gene's equivalency of goodman and goodwife is a mistake. A woman would never be refereed to as yeowoman. Don't forget the all important factor of CLASS. Husbandmen and yeoman were different animals. They certainly were in England in the 1600s. I am sure a husbandman could refer to himself as yeoman, but I am sure his neighbors were acutely aware of class differences and would have snickered at him. I think the all important matter for Rehoboth was where in English society the planters had come from. William's designation as "goodman" was probably not so much of his status in Rehoboth, but of his origins in England. If William's family could be identified in England, I am sure they would be yeoman and would have referred to themselves in their wills as such etc. The 1577 description of yeoman is by William Harrison. BC

In a message dated 3/6/2005 3:00:30 A.M. Pacific Standard Time, Bruce writes: I like the sound of 'Goodman' Carpenter. It might be useful to refer to him as such. BC Trouble is, the vast majority of men in colonial New England (including other William Carpenters) were husbandmen and yeomen. "Goodman" and "goodwife" were thus only slightly more distinctive than the church-related "brother" and "sister" (church membership was virtually universal). Even men consistently called "mister" by their contemporaries are not so called in the genealogical literature, despite its having been a more distinctive term/status than "goodman." The original Rehoboth proprietor's positions as town and proprietors' clerk, deputy, and constable clearly made him special, yet we wouldn't make titles out of any of these terms today. I therefore favor referring to William Carpenter (c.1605-1658[/9?]) in the same manner as do all published accounts (except that by Amos B. Carpenter, whose unfortunate numbering system violates longstanding convention): William2 Carpenter of Rehoboth, with the generational reference number in superscript when possible. Gene Z.

Bliss on pp. 47-48 quotes Ply. Col. Rec. vol 3, p. 102 which refers to Mr. Stephen Paine. BC

The following is a famous English 1577 definition of yeoman and goodman. "Yeomen are those which by our law are called Legales homines, free men born English, and may dispend of their own free land in yearly revenue to the sum of forty shillings sterling, or six pounds as money goeth in our times. Some are of the opinion ... that they are same which the Frenchmen call varlets, but, as the phrase is used in my time, it is very unlikely to be so. The truth is that the word is derived from the Saxon term Zeoman, or Geoman, which signifieth (as I have read) a settled or staid man, such I mean as, being married and of some years, betaketh himself to stay in the place of his abode for the better maintenance of himself and his family, whereof the single sort have no regard, but are likely to be still fleeting now hither now thither, which argueth want of stability in determination and resolution of judgment, for the execution of things of any importance. This sort of people have a certain pre-eminence, and more estimation that laborers and the common sort of artificers, and these commonly live wealthily, keep good houses, and travel to get riches. They are also for the most part farmers to gentlemen (in old time called Pagani, et opponuntur militibus, ...), or at the leastwise artificers, and with grazing, frequenting of markets, and keeping of servants (not idle servants, as the gentlemen do, but such as get both their own and part of their masters' living), do come to great wealth, insomuch that many of them are able and do buy the lands of unthrifty gentlemen, and often setting their sons to the schools, to the universities, and to the Inns of the Court, or, otherwise leaving them sufficient lands whereupon they may live without labor, do make them by those means to become gentlemen. These were they that in times past made all France afraid. And albeit they be not called "Master," as gentlemen are, or "Sir," as to knights appertaineth, but only "John" and "Thomas," etc., yet have they been found to have done very good service. ... Whereto I add that they may not be called masters and gentlemen, but goodmen, as Goodman Smith, Goodman Coot, Goodman Cornell, Goodman Mascall, Goodman Cockswet, etc., and in matters of law these and the like are called thus, Giles Jewd, yeoman; Edward Mountford, yeoman; James Cocke, yeoman; Harry Butcher, yeoman, etc.; by which addition they are exempt from the vulgar and common sorts. ... The fourth and last sort of people in England are day-laborers, poor husbandmen, and some retailers (which have no free land) copyholders, and all artificers, as tailors, shoemakers, carpenters, brick-makers, masons, etc."

I looked through the HISTORY OF REHOBOTH collection of early Rehoboth records compiled by Bliss for "Mr." usage. The result was interesting. Samuel Newman was consistently referred to as Mr. which make a case for the term as a designation of respect. However for everyone else the story is inconsistency. For example Henry Smith is Mr. Henry Smith only half the time, as is Alexander Winchester. There are others. Again any sociology based on "Mr." is on shaky ground. BC

While looking through Bliss I discovered the following, which may in the end be the only epithet used for William Carpenter. "In the year 1655 the 22nd of the 1st mo. [March] at a town meeting lawfully warned, it was agreed upon by vote that the new highway towards the bay shall be perfected, and that it should be done under the inspection of Goodman Payne and Goodman Carpenter." (Bliss, p. 45) I do not have my OED in my Puget Sound house, but my small desk dictionary suggests 'goodman' as a "title of respect used for those below the rank of gentleman, esp. a farmer or yeoman." The Bliss material shows one other instance of 'goodman' and thus it was not used for everyone. A yeoman designation for anyone in the 1600s had specific meanings. A yeoman was a farmer, but a farmer who was independent and financially solvent, and possibly educated. I like the sound of 'Goodman' Carpenter. It might be useful to refer to him as such. BC

"1 October 1634 : "At a Court holden before the Gouernour & Assistants, it was determined concerning the trade that it to continue in the hands of the parteners till the next Court, all other persons excluded as formerly ; and for furthering of a course fo hereafter, we made choyse of seuerall persons to treate with the now parteners. The persons made choyce of were Mr St. Hopkins, Mr William Colier, Mr Wil Gilson, Antony Anible, Jonathan Brewster, John Winslow, Manaseh Kempton, John Dunham, they hauing concluded to meet together about the midle of Nouember." Plymouth Colony Records, Vol. 1, p. 31." Here is another record with Brewster's name. BC

Jonathan Brewster was already a man probably well into his 40s by the time of our document. He was the eldest son of William Brewster. Savage notes for Jonathan, "in June 1636, was in command of the Plymouth trading, ho. on Conn. riv." BC

"Respect had a personal component based on things like offices held, wealth, and age. A young man would fall short in all three of those categories and might not achieve mister-hood until later." John is forgetting 1600s Massachusetts was as much part of English class society as any county in England. If your family was gentry, you were gentry. B

Mary B. Carpenter married Edward W. Parker Oct. 23, 1834 in the Whitehall, NY Presbyterian Church. She died, according to her tombstone in the Boardman Cemetery in Whitehall, Aug.1, 1845 age 29 years. I am trying to find out more about her, especially parents and siblings. She and Edward may have come from Granville before settling in Whitehall. Any help will be greatly appreciated. Ruth. Sent from the T-One web based email system at http://mail.t-one.net

Bruce wrote: > Fascinating material. Would not Jonathan Brewster as son of William be > worthy of respect? Respect had a personal component based on things like offices held, wealth, and age. A young man would fall short in all three of those categories and might not achieve mister-hood until later. > What is perhaps of interest is that William's name is last. Was William the > author of the original and good manners dictated that he place himself last? Note that he was right after the other Rehobothite, both brand-new to the General Court. They were undoubtedly the least senior members of the committee. John Chandler

"(Note that Carpenter is not among those whose names are preceded by "Mr," a term of respect designating a gentleman [as distinct from a husbandman or yeoman]. Neither is he called "captain.")" Fascinating material. Would not Jonathan Brewster as son of William be worthy of respect? In other words the pecking order went from husbandman to yeoman to gentry and finally to aristocrat. Surely the Brewsters were gentry. William Carpenter was surely yeoman i.e. an agriculturist of some means and often education. I think a sociology of the Mr. designation is suspect. I confess an ignorance of most of the other individuals. What is perhaps of interest is that William's name is last. Was William the author of the original and good manners dictated that he place himself last? A thought. BC

In a message dated 3/4/2005 3:00:15 A.M. Pacific Standard Time, Phoebe writes: << Does anyone know who RUTH CARPENTER, daughter of JOSEPH of OB (descendant of RI WILLIAM) and HANNAH (descendant of MA WILLIAM )married? >> Joseph2 Carpenter (William1 of Providence) and his wife, Hannah3 Carpenter (William2 of Rehoboth), aren't known to have had a daughter Ruth. I suspect you're referring to the daughter of John3 (William2 of Rehoboth) and Hannah (Smith) Carpenter of Rehoboth and Long Island. According to Seversmith (whose research of this line is the most complete and reliable in print), their daughter Ruth (b. Jamaica, L.I., ca. 1664) married John Ludlam, son of William and Elizabeth (Smith) Ludlam. Gene Z.

In a message dated 3/4/2005 3:00:15 A.M. Pacific Standard Time, Phoebe writes: << Does anyone know who RUTH CARPENTER, daughter of JOSEPH of OB (descendant of RI WILLIAM) and HANNAH (descendant of MA WILLIAM )married? >> Joseph2 Carpenter (William1 of Providence) and his wife, Hannah3 Carpenter (William2 of Rehoboth), aren't known to have had a daughter Ruth. I suspect you're referring to the daughter of John3 (William2 of Rehoboth) and Hannah (Smith) Carpenter of Rehoboth and Long Island. According to Seversmith (whose research of this line is the most complete and reliable in print), their daughter Ruth (b. Jamaica, L.I., ca. 1664) married John Ludlam, son of William and Elizabeth (Smith) Ludlam. Gene Z.

In a message dated 3/4/2005 3:00:15 A.M. Pacific Standard Time, John Chandler writes: In any case, I feel sure that William was indeed chosen for the General Court, since Savage is seldom wrong about such things. Colony records confirm it: Massachusetts Bay Colony records list William Carpenter among the deputies to the General Court at Boston in 1641 and 1643. Plymouth Colony records for 1645 don't provide an explicit list of deputies but do list William Carpenter as being admitted a freeman at the beginning of the court session (4 June 1645). That he was a deputy from Rehoboth (along with Stephen Payne) is nevertheless implied in the minutes immediately following the list of freemen: "It was ordered by the Court, that a committee should be elected & authorized for the p[re]paring of some p[re]sent lawes for redresse of some p[re]sent abuses, and for p[re]venting of future, whereupon these p[er]sons following were elected and nominated, viz: Mr Will[ia]m Collyer, Mr John Browne, Mr John Alden, Mr Will[ia]m Paddy, Nathaniel Souther, Jonathan Brewster, Josias Winslow, Edward Case, Edmond Eddenden, Anthony Annable, Richard Burne, Mr Anthony Thacher, Steeven Payne, and Will[ia]m Carpenter." (Note that Carpenter is not among those whose names are preceded by "Mr," a term of respect designating a gentleman [as distinct from a husbandman or yeoman]. Neither is he called "captain.") Quoting almost certainly from Rehoboth town-meeting records, Seversmith says that in May 1645 William Carpenter and Stephen Payne were sent as deputies to the General Court, "to certify the town's minds." Gene Z.

In a message dated 3/4/2005 3:00:15 A.M. Pacific Standard Time, Bruce writes: << What about 17th century usage of the word "captain"? What does the OED have to say? >> OED: "In the army: The officer who commands a company of infantry or foot artillery, or a troop of cavalry or horse artillery, ranking between the major and the lieutenant." Earliest usage presented is from 1567. At this point, though, we have yet to document that William2 of Rehoboth received such a commission. It's in the present century that some individuals insist on calling him captain. Gene Z.

Does anyone know who RUTH CARPENTER, daughter of JOSEPH of OB (descendant of RI WILLIAM) and HANNAH (descendant of MA WILLIAM )married? Just trying to Rule Out a possible Wife for John Carpenter of Jamaica (and Goshen?) Phoebe in CA Orange Co. NY: Carpenter, Wisner, Thompson, Wood, McDowell, Shaw, Tooker, Woodhull, Jayne, Coe, Dun Morris Co. NJ Runyon, Coe, Cooper Onondaga Co., NY Carpenter, Wisner, ?Camp, ?Cory Wayne and Ontario Co. Melvin, Leland, Foster Chautaqua Co. Carpenter?, Coe?, Melvin, Wisner M, IO, CA, OR, WA: Wisner, Melvin, Pitt