A. T. Powell writes: << I am wondering Why you are So Huffed at the refrence to Irsh Waif Or Any other Waif. . . . Faith & begory Gene ye Said ye Self that tha Lad was indentured. >> << I do not understand why you brought yor self into a intended helping hand to GENE Z. & hopefuly let him Know there wasn't any thing wrong with the use of the word Waif. >> An indentured servant is not assumed to be homeless (and typically wasn't homeless prior to his/her term of servitude) and thus is by definition not a waif. It is for this reason, a simple matter of accuracy, that I neither did nor would characterize James Redway as a waif. And knowing that his family (and perhaps he himself, originally) resided in Devon, England, I neither did nor would depict Redway as Irish; again, it's a simple matter of accuracy. It should be clear from a careful reading of my posting and the one to which it replies that it was not I who was insulted by the (never-made) Irish-waif characterization. I do tend to resist, however, when my statements are misrepresented or (as now) my attitude is mischaracterized. Gene Z.

The following is an 1650 indenture for an apprentice. Notice the language, "drink and lodginge fitting as servants ought to have." [*47] October 15. 1650. Know all men that I Samuell Terry with the consent of my present master William Pynchon of Springfeild gentleman have put my self an apprentense to Benjamin Cooly of Springfeild weaver his heires and assignes to serve him or them in any kind of Lawfull Imployment that the said Benjamin Cooly shall command me for and during the space of three yeeres 6 monthes and some odd dayes from the Tyme of the date hereof: In consideration whereof I the said Benjamin Cooly doe bynd myself my heires and executors to pay unto the said William his heirs or assignes the some of nine pounds viz fifty shillings at the 10 day of Aprill next 1651. and fifty shillings more at the 10 day of Aprill 1652 and fifty shillings more at the to day of Aprill 1653 and Thirty shillings the 10 of Aprill 1654 at the house of the said Mr. Pynchon in good and merchantable wheat at foure shillings per bushell or in sound merchantable Pease at three shillings per bushell moreover I the said Benjamin Cooly doe bynd myselfe my heires and assignes to pay unto the said Samuell Terry now assigned and set over unto me as abovesaid, fifty shillings in merchantable wheat and pease at the prise abovesaid for his first yeeres service and fifty shillings for the 2d yeere and fifty shillings for the 3d yere and for the last halfe yeere and some odd days thirty and five shillings and also in the said space to find the said Samuell Terry meate drink and lodginge fitting as servants ought to have: and also I doe hereby bynd myselfe to instruct him and teach him the trade of linnin weaving accordinge to the use of it in this [*48] Towne of Springfeild provided he will be willinge and carefull to learne it: This Nine Pounds due for Samuell Terrys tyme was sattisfied Mr. Pynchon according to ingagement: in specie: Per me JOHN PYNCHON [Marginal notation.] And the said William Pynchon doth promise to the said Samuell Terry for his better incoragement to remitt his last yeeres service which he is bound by his Indenture made in England to serve him more than is expressed in this present agreement with Benjamin Cooly, and doth also freely give him all the apparell that he hath at present both wollen and linnin and doth also promise to give him Twenty shillings more in such necessaries for apparell as he shall call for in his first yeares service with Benjamin Cooly: and the said Samuell doth bynd himself to be dilligent in service to the said Benjamin and not doing him any damage accordinge to his Covenantes expressed in his Indenture to the said Mr. Pynchon which said Indenture the said Mr. Pynchon cloth assigne set over and deliver into the hands of the said Benjamin Cooly for the use and behoof of himself or of any of the said persons mentioned in this Contract untill the said Samuell shall have performed the said service Of 3. year 6 monthes and odd dayes from the date hereof: and for the sure Rattifienge of the said Agreement the said Mr. Pynchon hath Entered this agreement in his book of publik Records and also all the foresaid persons have hereunto set their hands this present 15 day of October 1650. witnesse SAMUELL TERRY RICHARD MAUND JOHN BENHAM The Mark of Benjamin X Cooly WILLIAM PYNCHON [*49] Memorandum that it is agreed by the parties expressed in the said Indenture that in case the said Samuell Terry dye in the tyme of his first yeeres service with the said Benjamin then the said Benjamin is to pay only 5 pounds to Mr. Pynchon at the yeares end: and that if he dye after the first yeere and before he hath served 3 yeeres then he is to pay half of that which remaines to Mr. Pynchon. Also it is mutually agreed that whereas the said payments is expressed to be made in sound merchantable wheat or pease: yet if payment be made in any other thinge that the said Mr. Pynchon or Samuell Terry shall accept it shall be accounted a fulfillinge of their Covenant. Memorandum that the 20s above promised to Samuell Terry is paid him this 25 October 1650 in a new hat and band 0. 10 .0 in a moseskin 0. 10 .0 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----

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Bowen in his Early Rehoboth study "The Redway Family" tells that it was not only Redway that was under contract for three years after arrival in Massachusetts, but also merchant Ralph Woodward, his wife and daughter!!!! The Woodwards and Redway were a group of people under a business contract. The Woodward and Redway brought a sizable sum of money of Bladens to be invested as well. This wasn't a case of indenture, but rather a business project. The whole affair is referred to as a "partnership". James was under the same contract as the merchant Woodward. It is inconceivable James Redway was found on a Dublin street corner and traded a ticket for his manual labor. Surely he was at least the younger son of a respectable family, in the employ of a gentleman businessman (granted arms in 1663, see Burke) and no doubt under the watchful eye of the Woodwards. His daughter must have been a good catch for Samuel Carpenter. Yeoman stock, Yeoman stock!!!! BC

I do not understand why you brought yor self into a intended helping hand to GENE Z. & hopefuly let him Know there wasn't any thing wrong with the use of the word Waif. Aufwidersehn A T

Hello Carpenters: Even allowing for inaccuracies, I'd like to take a look at this tree. But when I click on the link, it takes NOT to a tree but to a Rootsweb search page. And when I enter "carpenter" in the surname search form, it just reloads to the same search page. I don't find any tree at all. What am I missing here? Robin >About 5 years ago - maybe March 2000, someone >posted a URL relating to a family tree for the Carpenters of Rehoboth. > >I finally found it after rambling through 5 years of email and place > it here again as I've found it helpful in my research. > >http://worldconnect.genealogy.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?db=ryand > >Tim Stowell

At 01:40 AM 3/11/2005, Tim Stowell wrote: >About 5 years ago - maybe March 2000, someone >posted a URL relating to a family tree for the Carpenters of Rehoboth. > >I finally found it after rambling through 5 years of email and place > it here again as I've found it helpful in my research. > >http://worldconnect.genealogy.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?db=ryand > >Tim Stowell I have seen this web site before, my direct line from William of Rehoboth is completely erroneous as it is listed on this site. The information was taken from a gedcom I submitted to Compuserve many years ago. I was just beginning my research and I had it wrong. Point being, none of the info contained at this site has been checked for accuracy...... use caution. Chuck

About 5 years ago - maybe March 2000, someone posted a URL relating to a family tree for the Carpenters of Rehoboth. I finally found it after rambling through 5 years of email and place it here again as I've found it helpful in my research. http://worldconnect.genealogy.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/igm.cgi?db=ryand Tim Stowell

Attenn: GeneZ, I am wondering Why you are So Huffed at the refrence to Irsh Waif Or Any other Waif. Websters Verision of Waif, Me waife ownerless property <onfr. waife, of Scand. orig,> 1 a. A homeless Person, esp an orphaned or forsaken Child. B. an Abandoned young Animal: STRAY. 2 Somthing found and unclaimed, as an object cast up by the sea, Faith & begory Gene ye Said ye Self that tha Lad was indentured. That is Self explanatoty. Tha Waif did not have enough Money to pay em-self across the water, so the Captian Sold Him for the Voage Fare, as was My 7th Grt Grand Dady Powell & many other People who did not have enough money for Travel Fare. A T & Leona <[email protected]>

Bruce writes: << To imply that my ancestor James Redway was an Irish waif is unfair and probably not historically accurate. >> I have no idea what prompted this, but I neither said nor implied any such thing. I said that Redway (who is my ancestor, also) arrived in Massachusetts as an indentured servant ("for the terme of three yeares") but nevertheless rose to the status of yeoman. This was in partial demonstration of the fact that the New England class structure was never as rigid as that of Old England. Although Redway's immediate origin was Dublin, it is certain he was *not* Irish: the obituary of editor and publisher George7 Redway (1835-1923) indicates that his father’s family was from Devonshire, England (_Medina [Ohio] Gazette_, 7 Dec. 1923); a survey of IGI entries for England indicates that those bearing his surname and its variants (Reddaway, Radway, Ridway, etc.) were concentrated in that county. In any case, the depiction (real or imagined) of a person as an Irish waif would only seem "unfair" to someone with a low opinion of the Irish and/or of waifs. It seems to me that any further discussion of Redway family history on the Carpenter mailing list would be inappropriate. Gene Z.

There is a problem in early records with "servant" and "apprentice". The two can be interchangeable. James Redway although certainly referred to as "servant" was probably an apprentice. Bowen notes that, "He was probably released from his apprenticeship three years later, in 1640, and married in 1641" (Early Rehoboth, vol. 1, p. 126). The following is from an ancestry.com site that discusses the problem. "Man and Master "Mr. Steephen Hopkins is committed to ward for his contempt to the Court, and shall so remayne comitted until hee shall either receive his servant Dorothy Temple, or els provide for her elsewhere at his owne charge during the terme shee hath yet to serve him." (Stratton) One of the least known aspects of the Colony is the distinction made between classes. There were "freemen" and there were "free men" who were not "freemen," but the most pronounced difference was between free men and "unfree men;" that is, servants, apprentices, and slaves. Slavery was not introduced until the later period, but servants and apprentices were present from the beginning. Apparently there was little difference between a servant and an apprentice, and at times the records seem to treat them interchangeably, and yet at other times there was a distinction. It might not be inaccurate to say that all apprentices were servants, but not all servants were apprentices. The distinction seemed to be that apprentices tended to be young and were expected to be taught a trade or given some form of education." A hint that James Redway was an apprentice was that he served a merchant. A merchant would have sought a boy who had some education. To imply that my ancestor James Redway was an Irish waif is unfair and probably not historically accurate. I see where James Redway refers to himself as "yeoman" in his 1684 proved will. Well enough. However, apprentices were traditionally drawn from yeomans' sons. Not to be forgotten.

<< How did Mr. Redaway become a yeoman? >> He, like most of his neighbors, was a Rehoboth proprietor. As such he received periodic grants of land from the town and then made the most of them. << It would be interesting to do a kind of class analysis of the the eldest son's wife if that is possible. Samuel who married a Redaway was last in the pecking order. >> Samuel was the next-to-youngest of William2's sons; Abiah was the youngest. (For a discussion of Samuel's approximate date of birth [say 1638] and proper place in the birth order, see TAG 70:193-204, at 195-98, to which add the following: Samuel Carpenter was sworn as a grand juryman at Plymouth on 4 June 1661, indicating that he had been born no later than 1640 [see Plymouth Colony Records, 3:215].) That it was the two youngest of William2's sons who married Redways had to do with their place in the birth order only in that they were much closer in age to James1 Redway's daughters than were their older brothers. Eldest daughter Sarah Redway (m. Samuel Carpenter) was born about 1642; Abiah Carpenter's wife, Mary Redway, was the next eldest, born in 1646. Neither they nor their younger sisters were of age when the elder three Carpenter brothers married. John4 Carpenter, who married Rebecca Redway (youngest of the sisters), was the eldest of William3 Carpenter's thirteen children. There's nothing in these facts to suggest a connection between birth order and class endogamy. Gene Z.

I have a copy of Daniel CARPENTER's Revolutionary War pension papers via Heritage Quest. In it he names three sons who are still dependent upon him - Harvey, Asa and Orson. Daniel joined the Continental Army in Coventry , CT in 1775. In the application for the pension dated April 13, 1818, he says he is 65 and his wife is 56, which makes his birth year 1755 and his wife's 1764. He applied for his pension from Vienna, Oneida co. N.Y. In the 1880 census Orson says he was born in Ct in 1807 and that both of his parents were born in Ct, also. I have found a Ct. vital record of Daniel CARPENTER born to Daniel CARPENTER and Elizabeth on May 9, 1755 in Coventry, Ct. How would I know if this is my Daniel? So far I've had no luck finding birth records for Harvey, Asa or Orson. Any suggestions of where I go from here? Jessie Deith

<< At Rehoboth the yeomanry were the Browns, Paines and Carpenters etc. >> John Brown, who was a Plymouth Colony Assistant within less than a year of his arrival in New England, is recorded as "Mr." as early as October 1637 and consistently thereafter. Among other early Rehoboth men who were consistently recorded as "Mr." were Joseph Peck, Henry Smith, Samuel Newman (pastor), and Alexander Winchester. << the same "strict pecking order" society that existed in England came right off the boat with the luggage in 1600s Massachusetts. >> As with the line separating husbandman and yeoman (see previous posting), the line between yeoman and gentleman was more penetrable in New England than in Old England. In a 1658 list of Rehoboth freemen, for example, former goodmen/yeomen Stephen Paine and William Carpenter are listed as "Mr." (Carpenter died soon thereafter, but Paine is found as "Mr." in other, subsequent records.) This almost certainly had to do earned respect and advancing age, not with English family background. Another relevant example: two sons and a grandson of William2 Carpenter of Rehoboth married daughters of James1 Redway, who had come to Massachusetts as an indentured servant. Redway became a prosperous yeoman, and his humble beginnings were not an obstacle (as they would have been in England) to his daughters' marriages to Carpenter men. The existence of a class structure in America--then and now--is undeniable, but it was never as rigid as that in England. From the beginning, the wide-open structure of economic opportunity and the need for close cooperation made that impossible. Gene Z.

Hi I have been enjoying all the Carpenter information, :o) I don't want to change the Subject, but would anyone know anything about the Kentucky Carpenter's? Not mine, George Carpenter who helped me a lot in Mercer County, Illinois, his Carpenter's were in KY. and he is at a dead end with them. Just though I'd check? Thanks Iris ----- Original Message ----- From: <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Tuesday, March 08, 2005 3:55 PM Subject: [CARPENTER] Re: yeomanry/my point (3/7/05) > > > << At Rehoboth the yeomanry were the Browns, Paines and Carpenters etc. > >> > > > > John Brown, who was a Plymouth Colony Assistant within less than a year of > his arrival in New England, is recorded as "Mr." as early as October 1637 > and > consistently thereafter. Among other early Rehoboth men who were > consistently recorded as "Mr." were Joseph Peck, Henry Smith, Samuel > Newman (pastor), > and Alexander Winchester. > > > > > << the same "strict pecking order" society that existed in England came > right off the boat with the luggage in 1600s Massachusetts. >> > > As with the line separating husbandman and yeoman (see previous posting), > the line between yeoman and gentleman was more penetrable in New England > than > in Old England. In a 1658 list of Rehoboth freemen, for example, former > goodmen/yeomen Stephen Paine and William Carpenter are listed as "Mr." > (Carpenter > died soon thereafter, but Paine is found as "Mr." in other, subsequent > records.) This almost certainly had to do earned respect and advancing > age, not > with English family background. Another relevant example: two sons and a > grandson of William2 Carpenter of Rehoboth married daughters of James1 > Redway, > who had come to Massachusetts as an indentured servant. Redway became a > prosperous yeoman, and his humble beginnings were not an obstacle (as they > would > have been in England) to his daughters' marriages to Carpenter men. > > The existence of a class structure in America--then and now--is > undeniable, > but it was never as rigid as that in England. From the beginning, the > wide-open structure of economic opportunity and the need for close > cooperation made > that impossible. > > > > Gene Z. > >

"and the need for close cooperation made that impossible" The close cooperation in Rehoboth was also English in inspiration. The stewardship of land in England always had a communal aspect i.e. after crops were harvested everyone availed themselves of the "commons" which was the open land that all parishes had. Everyone took turns tending to the sheep and cattle on the commons and everyone shared the responsibility of paths and field divisions. They all sat together on the manor court etc. I have the book in Japan, but cannot remember the title now. How did Mr. Redaway become a yeoman? My point was that there was really no yeomen class in Massachusetts, but rather people acted in various ways due to the class society they left behind. It would be interesting to do a kind of class analysis of the the eldest son's wife if that is possible. Samuel who married a Redaway was last in the pecking order. BC

At 09:14 PM 3/6/05 +0900, Bruce E. Carpenter wrote: >Bowen in his first volume of Early Rehoboth relates, "The town of Swansea >was founded on the basis of a class division of inhabitants that existed >nowhere else in New England." (up. 26) > >The founders of Swansea, an area in Rehoboth, were Thomas Willet, Stephen >Paine, John Brown, John Allen and John Butterworth. I often wondered where Mrs. Butterworth came from and now I know! :) Tim Stowell Chattanooga

Although I have a poor library here on Puget Sound, the following from the Britannica, VOL. 29, P. 54 is right on the money. Just transfer what is said here about the Englishmen of England to the Englishmen of Rehoboth. "Like the gentry, the yeomanry were involved in local government, performing most of the day-today, face-to-face tasks. Yeomen were village elders, constables, and tax collectors, and they composed the juries that heard cases at quarter sessions, Most owned sufficient freehold land to be politically franchized and to participate in parliamentary selections. Filling out the ranks of rural society were husbandmen, cottagers and labourers." At Rehoboth the yeomanry were the Browns, Paines and Carpenters etc. BC

"But the point of my remarks has been lost." So was mine. What I have been trying to ineptly say is that the same "strict pecking order" society that existed in England came right off the boat with the luggage in 1600s Massachusetts. I is hard to isolate it exactly because the early plantations were melting pots where gentlemen and solvent yeomen hoed beans with everyone else. However, the Browns and Paines ruled Rehoboth because, at least in part, because of a yeoman nobiesse oblige. BC

<< A woman would never be refereed to as yeowoman. >> Of course not. "Goodwife" (sometimes "goody") was a term of respect for the mistress of a household, typically derived from her husband's status. << Husbandmen and yeoman were different animals. . . . I am sure a husbandman could refer to himself as yeoman, but I am sure his neighbors were acutely aware of class differences and would have snickered at him. . . . If William's family could be identified in England, I am sure they would be yeoman and would have referred to themselves in their wills as such etc. >> The inconsistency with which yeoman and husbandman were used in early colonial land records implies that the line separating these two statuses (in New England, at least) was not as clear as one might think. It was not uncommon, for example, that the same man would be described as husbandman in one or more deeds dated *later* than one or more in which he is identified as yeoman. But the point of my remarks has been lost. In that "goodman" is a vague title of respect for a man below the rank of gentleman (especially--but not limited to--yeoman), it lacks the appropriate distinctiveness and specificity to be used as a modern means of identifying him clearly and accurately. << These widely spaced references to Goodman Paine, and to no one else except William Carpenter, point to these two individuals receiving a special deference in the plantation. >> This is not based on anything remotely resembling a complete examination of the records, either town or colony. We don't know who else was called "goodman." But based on a large sample of recorded references to William2 Carpenter of Rehoboth, it is certain that he was almost always identified by his name alone. His having been an object of deference and how we should refer to him in the present are separate matters. Presumably we are interested in clearly and accurately distinguishing William2 from others of the same name. In that the term "goodman" can apply to any man belonging to the broad stratum below the gentry, it fails even to distinguish William2 of Rehoboth from his own namesake son. Gene Z.