As previously promised I have the Plymouth Colony Records before me in their 1968 photo reproduction in six volumes. My wife's university library (Doshisha University) had them. There are a number of points in Amos Carpenter that are doubtful re. court and administrative appointments. Looking through all the years of appointments from 1633 one can see that they were rotational to a great extent. Most people had their turn as constable for example. The fact that William Carpenter performed these duties seems meaningless. What is meaningful however is a court case that Amos Carpenter, or anyone else, made any mention of. In 1649 William Carpenter had to pay a court bond of ten pounds with Obadia Hullme (Holmes) and Joseph Tory (Vol. 2, p. 147).. On pages 150-1 (vol. 2) and a year later in 1650, this matter is clarified. Holmes and his associates had basically broken away from the Newman church in Rehoboth and were conducting new Baptist meetings in the town. Holmes later took Newman to court for slander with William Carpenter as his witness. William won a modest settlement. A good deal of information re. Holmes can be gleaned from the net. William Carpenter of Rehoboth seems to have been a central figure in his activities and the Baptist foundation in America。 From the time of these court actions William of Rehoboth seems to have kept a small profile. In 1654 he became constable and surveyor of highways. In 1656 he served as court committee member with Stephen Payne. His last appointment was in 1645 when he was made freeman and court committee member. In 1646 he was a member of the Grand Enquest. Bruce Carpenter Nara, Japan

Hello Carpenters: I recently stopped by Trinity Church in Manhattan (NYC; Broadway just off Wall Street), and reviewed the list of burials, finding six Carpenters. These Carpenters are all names I don't know at all (and I don't find in ABC). Here they are, in case someone can make use of them: 1. George Carpenter, March 14, 1730 ae 65. 2. George Pratt Carpenter 3. Hallma, wife or Nemiagh Carpenter, Aug 10, 1755 ae 32. (Yes, that's given as "Nemiagh") 4. Hannah, daughter of James and Eleanor Carpenter Nov 5, 1775, ae 3 yrs. 5. Harriet Carpenter, June 25, 1782, ae 52 years 6. John Carpenter, Nov 5, 1795, 18y, 10m, 21d. Robin C.

I recently found in Amos B. Carpenter (hereafter ABC), _A Genealogical History of the Rehoboth Branch of the Carpenter Family in America_ (1898), another cluster of errors that have been uncritically accepted and repeated by virtually everyone who has posted anything online about the family in question. BENJAMIN4 CARPENTER (William3-1) was born at Rehoboth, Mass., 20 October 1663; he migrated to Northampton, Mass., where on 4 March 1691 he married HANNAH STRONG, daughter of Jedediah and Freedom (Woodward) Strong (Rehoboth VR, 1:9; NEHGR 8[1854]:180, 182, and 23[1869]:294-95). Among the children born to them at Northampton (in 1708 or 1709 they settled in Coventry, Conn.) was JEDEDIAH5 CARPENTER, born 1 October 1697 (Susan Whitney Dimock, _Births, Marriages, Baptisms and Deaths from the Records of the Town and Churches in Coventry, Connecticut, 1711-1844_ [1897], 19). The first seven of their children recorded at Coventry had been born at Northampton. They probably appear in Northampton records as well, but I have not looked for them). This much about Jedediah (birth place/date and parentage)--along with the likelihood that he had among his children a son Daniel--ABC gets right (see _Rehoboth Carpenter Family_, 65, 96-97). He also says, however, that this Jedediah Carpenter married at Rehoboth, Mass., on 24 May 1725, Mary Brown, with whom he had five children--Amy, Rebecca, Caleb, Patience, and Daniel--and that he died at Rehoboth on 15 December 1731 (ibid.). ABC gives precise birth dates between 1726 and 1732 for the first four children, estimates Daniel's birth year as "about 1727," and says all were born at Rehoboth At the end of his account of the children, ABC says that "[t]here is some doubt in the compiler's mind in regard to the foregoing Daniel belonging to this family. He has no authority at hand to verify the record, though the statement is probably correct." The "doubt in the compiler's mind" was well founded--not because Daniel fails to fit with this family, but because the family (except for Daniel) fails to fit with this Jedediah Carpenter. As above, all that is correct in what ABC says about him is that he was born at Northampton, 1 October 1697, the son of Benjamin and Hannah [Strong] Carpenter, and probably had a son Daniel. The Jedediah Carpenter who married Mercy/Marcy/Mary Brown (of Barrington, Mass. [now R.I.]); had children Amy, Rebecca, Caleb, and Patience; and died at Rehoboth in 1731 is a different man. Jedediah Carpenter of Rehoboth never lived anywhere else: he was born there on 15 December 1696, the son of Samuel and Patience (Ide) Carpenter (see Rehoboth Vital Records, 1:48, 56, 2:65, 144, 241). ABC lists him among Samuel and Patience Carpenter's children but gives no information about him except his birth date (see _Rehoboth Carpenter Family_, 78). The following children of Benjamin and Hannah (Strong) Carpenter's son Jedediah were baptized in Bolton, Conn. (adjacent to Coventry): Joel, 10 Dec. 1727; Ruth, 4 Jan. 1730; Nathan, 2 April 1732; Samuel, 28 July 1734; Dorcas, 22 Feb. 1736; and Ezekiel, 25 June 1738; their mother's name is not given ("A Copy of the Records of the Rev. Thomas White, the First Pastor of the Church in Bolton, Conn.," NEHGR 52[1898]:180-85). Although Daniel is not on this list, the Bolton church was not formed until October 1725, and Jedediah--aged 30 when son Joel (first on the above list) was baptized, in 1727--probably had several older children. There is other, stronger circumstantial evidence that this Jedediah had a son Daniel, but it goes beyond the scope of this posting. Suffice it to say that the first child of Jedediah's probable son Daniel was born to his wife Elizabeth ______ at Coventry in 1751 (see _Rehoboth Carpenter Family_, 177; primary source probably Coventry VR). It is thus probable that Daniel was older than all the children listed above and was born no later than 1725. (ABC's estimate of Daniel's birth year ["about 1727"] is of course based on Rehoboth Jedediah's dates of marriage and death and the birth dates of his children--Amy, Rebecca, Caleb, and Patience. Since they were born at regular, two-year intervals, squeezing Daniel in at "about 1727" was the best ABC could do. But since these were not Daniel's siblings, we can dismiss this estimate altogether.) On 10 March 1777 Jedediah Carpenter sold 33 acres with a dwelling house at Coventry; son Nathan (see above) was one of the witnesses (Coventry Deeds, 6:309). It was probably about this time that Jedediah moved to Stafford, Conn., where he died on 2 March 1781 (Barbour Collection, citing Stafford VR, 2:177); the otherwise unidentified "widow Carpenter" died there on 9 January 1784, aged 84 (Stafford Church Records, 69). The data and sources cited above are sufficient to validate the distinction between Benjamin and Hannah (Strong) Carpenter's son Jedediah, on the one hand, and Samuel and Patience (Ide) Carpenter's son Jedediah, on the other. They do not, however, represent thorough research of land, probate, church, cemetery, and other records of Coventry and vicinity or Stafford. Such research (which I do not plan to undertake) will undoubtedly add precision and breadth to the former Jedediah's biography and perhaps identify his wife and provide direct, documentary evidence of more children (including Daniel) than the six baptized at Bolton. That Coventry/Stafford Jedediah and Rehoboth Jedediah were the same man was unlikely on its face: What are the odds that a young man born in western Massachusetts, who had moved with his family to central Connecticut, would migrate northeastward, back to the town of his father's birth--the son had no direct connection to Rehoboth and no inheritance there--when population pressures and soil depletion were pushing people westward? But even if the online repeaters of ABC's inaccuracies failed to see this scenario as deserving of further investigation, one would have thought that at least a few might observe standard principles of genealogical research and, as a matter of course, check secondary-source data (particularly that from a nineteenth-century genealogy such as ABC's) against primary sources; lamentably, none did. If anyone had bothered, he or she would have found the whole thing to be a "no-brainer." How many times does the lesson have to be repeated before it is learned? There are no shortcuts to reliable genealogical data! (Sorry for the sermon, but I just couldn't resist.) Gene Z.

I just have studied this will and determined that it is not my line, but perhaps someone else would like the copies I have of the actual will. WILL OF DANIEL CARPENTER To his beloved wife Hannah $1500, plus house, household goods, horse & carriage To his son James H. $1000 to be paid when he reaches 21. Hannah to be guardian with expenses for his maintenance and education provided from interest on the account. After debts are paid, the rest of his estate is to be divided equally among his children: Daniel, Nancy Southerland, George, Abdul B. and James H. The executors are to be his sons Daniel and George. Signed by Daniel Carpenter of Hopewell, Medina Co., OH July 13, 1833 and witnessed by John Price and John Spangle of Hopewell. A later addendum gives to his son James by deed, half of the farm situated in Litchfield, Medina Co and specifies that the children of Nancy are to be given her share upon her death. dated Feb. 1839 The will was filed for probate May 27, 1839 (FHL film 423849 v. B 1832-1842 p. 157-160. The Estate disposition was made May 30, 1839 with an accounting of property and money owned and owed. One mortgage was held from a William Kelly in Greece, Monroe Co., NY perhaps the place from which they had come. (FHL film 423850 v. C 1839-1848 p. 379-381.) A book at Seattle Public Library: Newspaper Abstracts Huron Co., Ohio 1822-1835 by Henry Timman, 1974 lists the marriage of Daniel Carpenter to Julia Washburn, Oct. 8, 1835. in Fitchville. I assume this is the Daniel Jr. listed in the will.

If anyone has a paper copy of Savage, could they give me the page number for Carpenter data in vol. 1. Must all be on one page. Bruce carpenter Nara

Looking for a grandson of Albert James Carpenter and Kate Janette Pulliam. I have discovered that a grandson of these two participated in the BYU/Sorenson Molecular Genealogy project and matches the Carpenters of Rhode Island. This person is obviously interested in genealogy, but he left the space blank for his great-grandfather. I may be able to help. Please get in touch. John Chandler

I recently found some information on my ancestor, Harry Carpenter b Stanstead, Quebec, Canada 12 April 1802, son of Comfort and Thankful (Canfield) Carpenter. Harry's first marriage was to and Esther Wright. They had 3 known children: Harriet Pamelia Carpenter, Thankful Emily Carpenter and my ancestor, Amos Wright Carpenter b 6 March 1836, in the United States and possibly Vermont; Harry was married a 2nd time, 25 Jan 1847 registered in Bedford District, Quebec to Angeline Barbeau, b ca 1826 in Quebec. Harry and Angeline had 5 children, 4 of them born in Quebec and the youngest born in Clinton County, NY: Charles b ca 1852, Malvina b 1856, William b 1858, Louisa b 1864, and Susan b 1866; I found the family recorded in Peru, Clinton Co., NY in the 1870 census; in 1880, Angeline was recorded in the same location as a widow; William Carpenter + Abigail Briante Samuel Carpenter + Sarah Redaway Samuel Carpenter + Patience Ide Timothy Carpenter + Experience Chaffee Amos Carpenter + Mary "Polly" Gould Comfort Carpenter + Thankful Canfield Harry Carpenter + Esther Wright Amos Wright Carpenter + Helen "Nellie" Yates (aka Eleanor) Amos Frank Carpenter + Carrie Lee Churchill Millie Frances Carpenter + Arthur Merrett Deverell Briggs Marcia [email protected] http://home.mindspring.com/~mbriggs3 http://home.mindspring.com/~phil1180

I'm still trying to get past my John Carpenter born About 1802 New York. I can't figure out who his parents were nor can I find who his Wife was. Thought I would post this here never know. John Carpenter had 2 children both born on Fayette County Indiana. Dennis Carpenter born - 20 Jul 1832 Jane Carpenter born - 1837 The last place I found John was in the 1870 census records in Jasper County Iowa. Township of Independence. Our Family has taken the yDNA tests and we had 2- 36/37 matches but we just can't make any connections. I have talked to John R. Carpenter and he had a couple good ideas. My John Carpenter might have been taken in by possible another Carpenter family as a child? I'm Stuck! Any help is greatly Appreciated. Best Regards, Jim Carpenter

Popped in LDS Family History Center, film No. 975565, had several Carpenters mentioned on some early deeds. I did not have the index, so could have missed some just jotted down the tiny bit of information that applied to each. June 1, 1836 John and Elinore Parry (or Perry) and Jacob and Mary Brown, Orion Township to POWELL CARPENTER of Wheatland, Monroe Co., NY Wit: Jesse Decker and Wm. Merchant. (This could be of interest to me, as my elusive Moses Carpenter had a grandaughter who married a Perry in NY.) Pg. 137-138 ------------- Afred Dauney(?) Orion, MI (not sure, surname could have started with an O, hard to read handwriting) same witnesses as above June 2, 1836 pg. 137 ---------------- Hiram and Rebecca Barns to POWELL CARPENTER Wit: Jesse Decker a d Thomas Head pg. 136 --------------------------- Vol 13 Oct 26, 1836 Samuel M. and Almira Goodwin Oakland Co MI to OSMUND T. CARPENTER and CHARLES A.CARPENTER of Oakland MI Wit: O.D. Richardson and John Runyon, Jr. pg. 52 (This one interested me too, because my MOSES CARPENTER married Elizabeth Runyon and she had a brother, John Runyon) -------------------------- Also found S.M. CARPENTER with a Miller and Piles as witnesses to a deed for Blumfield ? and Parkr 1836 ---------------- I am posting these here because I seldom see deeds listed in print, so hope this helps someone. Wanted to check these cats in the Carpenter Memorial, but it seems that my copy has run off and hidden from me, so maybe someone might! Phoebe in CA to POWELL CARPENTER

Beginning with 1855, the New York State censuses ask that the county of birth be supplied for those born in New York. State censuses seldom have a general index, and New York is no exception; but its 1865 and 1875 censuses for Cattaraugus Co. have been indexed locally and the results put online. If you order FHL films 584487 and 584491, you'll find the family of Charles Carpenter on pages 22 and 551, respectively. Have you checked local and county histories, obituaries in local/county newspapers, etc.? Using the Cattaraugus Grantee Index (you might also look in the Mortgagor Index), you could identify the volume/page numbers of deeds of purchases (and mortgages) by Charles Carpenter of land in Cattaraugus Co. Then check the relevant record volumes to see if the earliest (not necessarily the first-recorded) deed or mortgage indicates Charles's former place of residence. The indexes and record volumes are available on FHL film. It's an outside shot, but you should also check Cattaraugus Co. probate records for both Charles and Harriet. Sometimes you learn things you don't expect. As a general research principle, find out all you can about Charles and Harriet from all conceivable sources. If you haven't already checked it, perhaps their son Arthur's death certificate gives his parents' respective places of birth. If all else fails and you know the identity of any of Charles's or Harriet's siblings, you might try researching one of them. You might also see if you can find a link to the surname DeVere. But before you try anything else, check the state census films mentioned above. Gene Z. In a message dated 4/5/2005 4:00:40 P.M. Pacific Standard Time, Joyce Sharpley writes: Charles Carpenter b. 15 Nov 1830 in NY, d. 20 Nov 1888 in Cattaraugus Co. NY and is buried in the East Randolph Cemetery, Maple Hill cemetery. He married Harriet A. Palmer b. 22 Dec 1840 in NY. They had 2 sons, Clayton b. 1862 in Randolph, Cattaraugus, NY and d. 1863 and is buried in the East Randolph cem. Also. The second child was Arthur DeVere Carpenter b. 13 Sep 1866 in Napoli, Cattaraugus, NY, d. 4 Aug 1958 in Seattle, King, WA. Charles was a marble sculptor/cutter. I sent for his death certificate last September and finally received my response last week. The report was, that there is no record of his death. I even called the office and they pulled the records for that year to double check for me. I am very disappointed of course. Does anyone know another way I can find the parents of Charles Carpenter. There are several Charles Carpenters born in New York the same age as my ggrandfather. I've checked the census records. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

I've been told to check property holdings as they sometimes say Charles Carpenter of San Francisco or some such as a clue. Then of course look for church records ( as to baptismal records.) Also check your library - there are some good Carpenter books. Of course you can only use these as a guide for many of the early researchers weren't to careful. Jessie Deith

Hello, I belonged to this list a couple of years ago and have just now rejoined. I have the Carpenter CD's. I have had several suggestions as to which line of Carpenters I descend from, but to date I have no proof. Here is what I have so far: Charles Carpenter b. 15 Nov 1830 in NY, d. 20 Nov 1888 in Cattaraugus Co. NY and is buried in the East Randolph Cemetery, Maple Hill cemetery. He married Harriet A. Palmer b. 22 Dec 1840 in NY. They had 2 sons, Clayton b. 1862 in Randolph, Cattaraugus, NY and d. 1863 and is buried in the East Randolph cem. Also. The second child was Arthur DeVere Carpenter b. 13 Sep 1866 in Napoli, Cattaraugus, NY, d. 4 Aug 1958 in Seattle, King, WA. Charles was a marble sculptor/cutter. I sent for his death certificate last September and finally received my response last week. The report was, that there is no record of his death. I even called the office and they pulled the records for that year to double check for me. I am very disappointed of course. Does anyone know another way I can find the parents of Charles Carpenter. There are several Charles Carpenters born in New York the same age as my ggrandfather. I've checked the census records. Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated. Joyce Sharpley [email protected]

While in England this summer a friend at the University of London recommended two works of fiction by Edward Rutherford entitled 'London" and 'Sarum'. It is fiction. However one of the families throughout both books is the Carpenter family. Rutherford had read widely in English historical documents and many of his Carpenters will appear familiar. BC

"And what is a "true" indentured servant?" There is no true indentured servant. However, surely there was a social contexts which changed in many ways over a century i.e. a veritable mass migration of impoverished indentured laborers in the 1700s in contrast to a modest number of 17th century servants and apprentices, like Readway and Wright, in the direct employ of prosperous business men with a sense of obligation and responsibility to their charges. BC

Bruce wrote: > John's objection perhaps brings us to the crux of the matter. "Indenture" in > 17th century > Massachusetts meant simply contract. Yes, and it still means that to this day, though the word is seldom used. The word "servant" also has an unchanged meaning to this day. So what is the crux of the matter?? > However the true "indentured > servant" was I suspect a creature of a century later And what is a "true" indentured servant? And how is that different from an indentured servant of the 17th century: a person who is bound as servant to a specific master by irrevocable contract covering a determined period of years. John Chandler

Bruce wrote: > Bowen explains the term servant > as follows: "Three hundred years ago anyone who was a "servant" who worked > for another whether in the capacity of farmhand or lawyer." (p. 113). That definition leaves out a crucial word. A servant could indeed be described as someone who worked SOLELY for another person. The status of a servant was thus that of a dependent serving a master, not to mince words. Of course, an INDENTURED servant is bound to that status for the term of his indenture, but he's a free man after that. It's that simple. > For both men one wonders how they > accumulated their money. One suspects some manner of patronage arrangement > with their employers. Don't forget that money "grew on trees" in those days. Even servants get some time off, and an energetic man could obtain a grant of wilderness land and turn it into a farm on his own account. John Chandler

"That definition leaves out a crucial word" John's objection perhaps brings us to the crux of the matter. "Indenture" in 17th century Massachusetts meant simply contract. Surely the term "indenture" meant simply that in period England and before. However the true "indentured servant" was I suspect a creature of a century later and chiefly in the southern colonies. We should beware of reading 17th century New England in terms of the 18th century. Historical problem? BC

Looking for Paul Mowery of Ohio to contact me regarding The Va Branch of Carpenters book John L. Carpenter PO Box 912 Walpole,N.H. 03608-0912 [email protected]

Back from Florida. Richard Wright of Rehoboth provides good reference for the slippery nature of the term "servant" in the 17th century. Wright is described by Bowen as, "Perhaps the main organizer in the settlement of Seekonk." (Bowen, vol. 3, p. 113). Like Redway, Wright arrived in Massachusetts as the servant of a wealthy individual, in his case a Colonel Humfrey. Bowen explains the term servant as follows: "Three hundred years ago anyone who was a "servant" who worked for another whether in the capacity of farmhand or lawyer." (p. 113). Wright and Redway are deserving of a good comparative study, although certainly Redway was a more humble individual than Wright. Both came to MA to develop farms for employers. For both men one wonders how they accumulated their money. One suspects some manner of patronage arrangement with their employers. BC

The link below is to an excellent article that just appeared on the NEHGS website. It concerns the use of deeds in genealogical research. It is essential reading for anyone not in the habit of examining these valuable documents in the course of their genealogical research. But even those who customarily consult deeds may find an item or two that is new to them. _http://www.newenglandancestors.org/education/articles/research/special_topics /hot_topics/Another-Look-At-Deeds_2005.asp_ (http://www.newenglandancestors.org/education/articles/research/special_topics/hot_topics/Another-Look-At-Deeds_ 2005.asp) Gene Z.