> From: "Patricia Hobson" <[email protected]> > Date: April 28, 2005 12:04:50 AM CDT > To: [email protected] > Subject: Re: [CARPENTER] surveys constables > > > Then you could entertain yourself with > etymological & historical ephemera without prohibiting other people > from > asking about old uncle Henry Carpenter for fear of derision. > Have a nice day! > P. Hobson You said: "old uncle Henry Carpenter" What makes you think he lived to be old? I want to see primary, secondary, and tertiary sources cross-referenced, annotated, highlighted with a yellow highlighter, and with orange stickie pads. Why do you obviously claim he didn't have a middle name? And he's an uncle? Ha, you must be kidding if you think just by saying so it makes it true. We don't know for sure he had siblings, after all you don't list any. And who's to say that his (UNPROVEN!) siblings even had children? You make too many assumptions for such a serious genealogist as myself to bear silently. I'm ready to fight you tooth and nail over these "details", after all, this is the Carpenter genealogy list! :) M. E. Galomania (aka Rick Carpenter)

"The references to deputies I saw in the Plymouth Records indicated that they were strictly tools of the court i.e. officials who brought evidence against suspects for court proceedings." It escapes me how Mr. Chandler thought the above was saying appointed officials of the court were like deputies in the western USA. The appointed members of the Grand Enquest were certainly like the prosecutors of our modern court system. My problem was that I had confused deputies with members of the Grand Enquest. I would however advise Mr. Chandler from refraining to referring to western sheriffs and their deputies as "employees" or "policemen". This is Massachusetts. The sheriff in the west is really a kind of politician with handcuffs. BC

"I've seen constables appointed and constables elected, but highway surveyors were generally elected." The University of Virginia scholars (quote below) seem to think constables were appointed. Could Mr. Chandler show me an example of an elected constable? In my Plymouth Colony Records volumes the "Surveyors of the Heighwayes" are always listed together with other groups of court appointments. Could Mr. Chandler find some evidence to convince me otherwise? Surely land surveys and highway surveys were one of a kind. "The Governor and seven Assistants were elected annually in the March General Court session. They then appointed a number of lesser officials, including "Constables" for the keeping of peace in individual towns (e.g., PCR 11: 7). Also appointed were "Messengers" who held a variety of duties, from publishing announcements of intended marriages, executing punishments, acting as jailers, maintaining standards of measures, and conducting land surveys (PCR 11: 18-19)." BC

Cousins, I am unable to understand there being ANY Name , Question in relation to Constable, Deputy Any more than there would be in the use of Assistant, Of which is all that a Deputy is, A Constable, , is About obsulete, They are some place down the chain from the Judge, Several Steps Down. I belive that the greatest problem today is that TOO many people are under the impresion that ALL rules are open ,as to any ones interpation, of which they are not TRY to give a Trafic Police your Version of the Trafic laws when one May be stoped for Speeding. NOW: Please try to explain Why there would be a need for ANY rule Making Body <AKA, County Government, Congress Or any Law being set forth if it was subject to any one thinking other wise? There is no Argument, there could be , a mater of a Factual statment. to one with an uninformrd, Personal Opinion,. These : Constable, Deputy & Assistant have nothing to do with Genealogical research. NOW for Braging Writes, <My 6th Grt Grand Father was Thomas Jefferson,s Fathers Lawyer, OLE-Thomas had to ask Grand PA,s Permission to go to William & Mary College> BUT Attorney, Had no Genealogical Connection. A T Powell

DEPUTIES: In the case of the Sheriff, The High Sherill IS an elected County, Offical & Large Cities in Va. Have a Sheriff, Who opparates the Jail. Then that Elected Selects His OR Her, <Usualy Election Helpers & Their Family Members or members of Influential Familys, They Serve at the Pleasure of the High Sheriff. We elect an Atorney General, <With him Claiming to fight Crime> He employs a group of lawyers to assist in his defending the Commonwealth, More often than, not Against the People who VOTED for him. A Marshall is apponted, & he has Deputies. There are Clerks of the Court, <Hired> & they have Deputy Clerks of the Court. A T POWELL

Only someone who has spent their entire existance in Massachusetts could make such a statement: "A DEPUTY is a member of a representative council. This is nothing like a deputy sheriff, so don't be confused by the similarity of names." Out west the sheriff is an elected official and his deputy represents him. Hence the sheriff's is no less a representitive as were the Rehoboth deputies. 17th century usage of "deputy" can be seen in the OED　and reads as follows: "A Person authorized to excercise on behalf of another." BC

I do not have any descent study the Plymouth Colony Court and depend on the Plymouth Colony Achieve Project on the internet. It seems a good site and one of the hosts has written what seems an important study of the court. Their comments on Grand Jury members is as follows: "Composed of freemen in good standing from the different townships, members of the Grand Jury were "pannelled", or selected and appointed, by the Governor and Assistants for an annual term of office, to hear charges made on oath of suspected criminal conduct by persons living in the Colony, but there had to be two witnesses " Mr. Chandler's comment that William Carpenter was a deputy and therefore elected, while accurate, still misses the point that his judicial roles were the result of appointment. Where does Mr. Chandler's knowledge of the Plymouth Court come from? BC

Well said! But let's be sure not to confuse PhD with Professor - they are quite different, as we've seen. --- Patricia Hobson <[email protected]> wrote: > Bruce Carpenter wrote: > "Could Mr. Chandler show me an example of an > elected constable?" > > But what good would that do? You can argue > (and apparently WILL) until the > proverbial cows come home, & quote from every > primary & secondary source on > the planet, and still end up disagreeing. > Perhaps we can convince rootsweb that we need 2 > levels of surname groups: > one "basic" and one "Ph.D" Then you could > entertain yourself with > etymological & historical ephemera without > prohibiting other people from > asking about old uncle Henry Carpenter for fear > of derision. > Have a nice day! > P. Hobson > > > > From: "Bruce E Carpenter" > <[email protected]> > To: <[email protected]> > Sent: Thursday, April 28, 2005 12:28 AM > Subject: [CARPENTER] surveys constables > > > > > > > > "I've seen constables appointed and > constables elected, but highway > > surveyors were generally elected." > > > > The University of Virginia scholars (quote > below) seem to think constables > > were appointed. Could Mr. Chandler show me an > example of an elected > > constable? In my Plymouth Colony Records > volumes the "Surveyors of the > > Heighwayes" are always listed together with > other groups of court > > appointments. Could Mr. Chandler find some > evidence to convince me > > otherwise? Surely land surveys and highway > surveys were one of a kind. > > > > "The Governor and seven Assistants were > elected annually in the March > > General Court session. They then appointed a > number of lesser officials, > > including "Constables" for the keeping of > peace in individual towns (e.g., > > PCR 11: 7). Also appointed were "Messengers" > who held a variety of duties, > > from publishing announcements of intended > marriages, executing > punishments, > > acting as jailers, maintaining standards of > measures, and conducting land > > surveys (PCR 11: 18-19)." > > > > BC > > > > > > > Dave __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com

Bruce Carpenter wrote: "Could Mr. Chandler show me an example of an elected constable?" But what good would that do? You can argue (and apparently WILL) until the proverbial cows come home, & quote from every primary & secondary source on the planet, and still end up disagreeing. Perhaps we can convince rootsweb that we need 2 levels of surname groups: one "basic" and one "Ph.D" Then you could entertain yourself with etymological & historical ephemera without prohibiting other people from asking about old uncle Henry Carpenter for fear of derision. Have a nice day! P. Hobson From: "Bruce E Carpenter" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Thursday, April 28, 2005 12:28 AM Subject: [CARPENTER] surveys constables > > > "I've seen constables appointed and constables elected, but highway > surveyors were generally elected." > > The University of Virginia scholars (quote below) seem to think constables > were appointed. Could Mr. Chandler show me an example of an elected > constable? In my Plymouth Colony Records volumes the "Surveyors of the > Heighwayes" are always listed together with other groups of court > appointments. Could Mr. Chandler find some evidence to convince me > otherwise? Surely land surveys and highway surveys were one of a kind. > > "The Governor and seven Assistants were elected annually in the March > General Court session. They then appointed a number of lesser officials, > including "Constables" for the keeping of peace in individual towns (e.g., > PCR 11: 7). Also appointed were "Messengers" who held a variety of duties, > from publishing announcements of intended marriages, executing punishments, > acting as jailers, maintaining standards of measures, and conducting land > surveys (PCR 11: 18-19)." > > BC > >

Bruce wrote: > Only someone who has spent their entire existance in Massachusetts could > make such a statement: Wrong again, but you do have a valid point. We *were* in fact talking about Massachusetts, and it *does* help to be familiar with how things are done there. > "A DEPUTY is a member of a representative > council. This is nothing like a deputy sheriff, so don't be confused > by the similarity of names." > > Out west the sheriff is an elected official and his deputy represents him. > Hence the sheriff's > is no less a representitive as were the Rehoboth deputies. Don't be silly. A deputy sheriff is an employee, and although the title is obviously derived from the original meaning of "deputy", the modern meaning of the term is simply a policeman employed by the sheriff's office. (And, by the way, sheriffs are elected just about everywhere in the US.) Now, let's see -- what does this have to do with William Carpenter? Oh, yes. He was a Deputy to the General Court, not to be confused with a deputy sheriff. John Chandler

Bruce wrote: > Mr. Chandler's comment that William Carpenter was a deputy and therefore > elected, while accurate, still misses the point that his judicial roles > were the result of > appointment. Where does Mr. Chandler's knowledge of the Plymouth Court come > from? The real point is that jury duty, even then, was a simple duty. Being on a jury was a chore and not an honor. A person could in fact get out of jury duty, and some people now and then refused to serve, but there was a fine for such a refusal. In fairness, jurors were selected so as to spread the burden around. Note that, in those early days, the juror terms were annual, but that only meant that the sessions were normally once a year. Also, note that a person already serving as a Deputy would be on hand anyway at the session and could conveniently be a juror as well. I don't know that jurors in those days were predominantly picked from among the Deputies, but it certainly would have been sensible. These remarks are based mostly on my reading about the court system in Massachusetts, rather than Plymouth, but the two systems were very nearly the same, except that Massachusetts moved rather quickly to a system of quarterly county courts. As far as I know, Plymouth didn't have such until 1685, after amalgamation. Now, let's see -- what does this have to do with William Carpenter? Oh, yes. He was a Deputy to the General Court, and it seems that, while he was there, he was on the judicial committee. That would have kept him a bit busier than the average delegate, but it was all over after a few weeks. The Governor and the Assistants actually ran the colony the rest of the year. John Chandler

"The references to deputies I saw in the Plymouth > Records indicated > that they were strictly tools of the court" I had confused "deputies" with members of "Grand Enquest" or "grand Jury" and "committee". The Grand Court was surely both a law court and a political legislature. The deputies' function was the election of the governor and his assistants and overall administrative law. The other three above were judicial. Members of the three were appointed by the court. The offices of constable and Highway Survey seem also to have been appointments. Thus William Carpenter's activities at the General Court were largely legal and the result of someone's appointment. Mr. Brown perhaps? BC

Bruce wrote: > I had confused "deputies" with members of "Grand Enquest" or "grand Jury" > and "committee". The Grand Court was surely both a law court and a political > legislature. If, by Grand Court, you mean the General Court, then, yes. That's exactly what I said in my last message. > The deputies' function was the election of the governor and his assistants > and overall administrative law. Not exactly. The Deputies were also the pool of manpower available for forming the jury and the committee. > The offices of constable > and Highway Survey seem also to have been appointments. I've seen constables appointed and constables elected, but highway surveyors were generally elected. > Thus William Carpenter's activities at the General Court were largely legal > and the result of someone's appointment. No. As Gene pointed out, William Carpenter was a Deputy. He was therefore elected. John Chandler

"No, the committee is presumably a subset of the General Court, but every member of the General Court is the Deputy of his respective town. To put it another way, presumably every committee member was a deputy, but surely not every deputy was a committee member." Based on what evidence? The references to deputies I saw in the Plymouth Records indicated that they were strictly tools of the court i.e. officials who brought evidence against suspects for court proceedings. I fear Mr. Chandler is reading democracy into a situation that had none. The question remains how they were appointed, although I suspect either way they served the interests of the Plymouth Court and not their own community interests. I fear William Carpenter realized that the hard way. You could only have realized that by reading all the books and not a FHL microfilm. BC

"But Rehoboth town meeting records make it clear that William2 Carpenter was a deputy to the General Court at Plymouth in 1645, and his listing in colony records as a General Court committeeman in both aforementioned years indicates that he was a deputy not only in 1645 but also in 1656." I noticed that membership on the court committee was in the index referred to as "deputy". Thus I assume deputy and committee are synonymous. Also the Grand Enquest and the committee seem to be synonymous i.e. in the function to present cases for prosecution, or evidence. Another question is the Rehoboth town records. I didn't know there were any outside of the Plymouth records.　If there are such records in what form have they been published? Unfortunately my Rehoboth books are now on the other side of the Pacific. BC

Bruce wrote: > Based on what evidence? The references to deputies I saw in the Plymouth > Records indicated > that they were strictly tools of the court i.e. officials who brought > evidence against suspects for court proceedings. I fear Mr. Chandler is > reading democracy into a situation that had none. The question remains how > they were appointed, although I suspect either way they served the interests > of the Plymouth Court and not their own community interests. I fear William > Carpenter realized that the hard way. You could only have realized that by > reading all the books and not a FHL microfilm. It's a simple question of vocabulary. You can read until the cows come home, but you won't have learned anything at all if you don't know what the words mean. A DEPUTY is a member of a representative council. This is nothing like a deputy sheriff, so don't be confused by the similarity of names. The GENERAL COURT had (and indeed still has) a judicial-sounding name, but it served as both the legislature and judiciary and was just such a representative body. Its members (the deputies) were indeed chosen in a democratic process by the town meetings. Sorry, but that's how it was. John Chandler

Bruce wrote: > I noticed that membership on the court committee was in the index referred > to as "deputy". Thus I assume > deputy and committee are synonymous. No, the committee is presumably a subset of the General Court, but every member of the General Court is the Deputy of his respective town. To put it another way, presumably every committee member was a deputy, but surely not every deputy was a committee member. > didn't know there were any outside of the Plymouth records. If there are > such records in what form have they been published? Unfortunately my > Rehoboth books are now on the other side of the Pacific. Fear not. All you have to do is find the nearest FHC. Rehoboth town meeting records from 1636 to 1824 are on one reel of microfilm: FHL US/CAN 562561. John Chandler

FYI: They have places noted on the page that these Carpenters lived at. I have purchased several family histories from their store and they have been a great help in my research. Check out them 1800 original photo albums they have. How neat, I had never seen them before now. You can find it by going to ebay and doing a search for item number: 5576365215 Or here: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=2980&item=5576365215 Hope it helps someone, Jamie

_Click here: The Papers of Judge Frederick Vose at Dartmouth College_ (http://diglib.dartmouth.edu/library/ead/html/ml67.html) FOLDER : 126. Cushing, David, and Sylvester Carpenter; mortgage deed The Dartmouth College Library bought the Papers of Judge Frederick Vose from Charles Apfelbaum, Rare Books and Collections, Valley Stream, New York, in 1987. A fine selection of records from early (1825-ca. 1855) Cheshire County, New Hampshire courts, this collection will provide researchers with a rare glimpse of the legal and economic problems faced by New Hampshire residents during the mid-1800s. Although the majority of the suits were brought for non-payment of debts, there are also cases concerning theft, assault and battery, breach of promise, divorce, arson, and the settlement of estates.

<< In 1656 [William2 of Rehoboth] served as court committee member with Stephen Payne. His last appointment was in 1645 when he was made freeman and court committee member. >> I don't have Plymouth Colony records at hand, but as I recall, they do not explicitly name the deputies to the General Court for 1656 (and perhaps not for 1645). But Rehoboth town meeting records make it clear that William2 Carpenter was a deputy to the General Court at Plymouth in 1645, and his listing in colony records as a General Court committeeman in both aforementioned years indicates that he was a deputy not only in 1645 but also in 1656. His committee appointments were predicated upon his having been seated as a member of (deputy to) the General Court (the colony's legislative body) in those years. Gene