I am making an assumption that the individuals who “prize” or valuate the objects in an inventory are also the individuals who pen the document itself. In the case of the Wiseman inventory either William Pearson or William Carpenter might have written the document. If we look at how “William Pearson” is written on the first page and how it is written as a signature on the following page, we can conclude that the document on the whole was not written by Pearson, but rather by Carpenter. I would also assume that the William Carpenter in the Wiseman inventory is William Carpenter jr. Gene Zubrinsky might stick with his original evaluation of the “Glebe Terriers” problem. From Shalbourne manor documents there is a name that is extremely close to the “Crpener.” I can clarify this at a later date. BC

Looking over the wills, some mention aliases. As example it may say John Bell alias Carpenter. Does it mean the persons REAL NAME was Bell or that it was Carpenter? Thanks, Donna Once a man is united to God, how could he not live forever? C. S. Lewis

Someone clarify the following if possible. English wills were as a rule completely copied. What we see are not the originals. However an inventory seems to be an original document and the signatures originals. Is this correct? The John Bryant signature indicates that John scripted the inventory itself and the document is in his hand. BC

The signature of John Bryant appears on the inventory of Thomas Winning. Please beware that will and inventory can be in two separate places in the will list. Bruce Carpenter

Please look at image no. 2 for a Thomas Winning of Shalbourne for 1622. There you will see the bold and nicely scripted signiture of John Brian (Briant). I do not have my Manor records here in Washington, but I do recall that John Brian (Briant) was the father of Abagail Briant our ancestor. Interestingly this sheds a little light on the Briants in that John was literate. The manor records I have sort out the Briants fairly well and I will report on this again in September. They had lived in Shalbourne from Queen Elizabeth's time. John was the son of a William or vice-versa. Bruce Carpenter Clinton, WA

Another point to keep in mind re. the Shalbourne problem is the Alice Carpenter who died there right before the Carpenter move to Massachusetts. Gene Zubrinsky rightly concluded their departure and her demise should have been related. What Gene failed to notice, and I am not trying to be mean here, is that the only Alice Carpenter in the area lived in the next town of Hungerford. Hungerford and Shalbourne are basically city and suburb. Alice’s husband was a Hungerford businessman. The pair had no children. The Hungerford parish registers are very detailed. There is no mention of any Carpenter children and no mention of an Alice Carpenter death. Alice’s husband dies c. 1625/6, the same time as the Carpenter wedding in Shalbourne. Possibly William jr. may have arrived to settle down in the area and likewise take care of AUNT Alice. Alice was the wife of an important town business leader. If she died in town there would have been a record. Alice Carpenter and her husband Thomas were likewise late comers to Hungerford. He was not born there and surely arrived in town for business. Actually he was a cloth dyer which should not be understood too literally. Thomas should have had a finger in all aspects of the local cloth production. An important point is that the local farm people were the sheep raisers and the weavers. A few were full time weavers. The name William Carpenter appears in one of the Wilshire wills with a Great Bedwyn weaver who owed him money. There was a business connection for sure. It would seem to me that William Carpenter the elder went from town to town and gathered woven cloth for finishing in Hungerford with his uncle and associates. That might not be all he did. He might have farmed a bit and had another trade. Remember the “carpenter” note on the Bevis manifest? Even a few facts may tell all. BC

If anyone looks through the Wiltshire wills an discovers an additional reference besides a 1609 reference to a Robert Carpenter in Shalbourne please post your finding. From the 1608 document that I introduced the other day it would seem that the two Williams, possibly plus a relative named Robert, first arrived in Shalbourne in 1608. Another set of documents that I own is a very interesting manor survey of 1628ish. Basically the manor belonged to the infamous Seymour family and due to a death the property changed hands. A survey was in order. The interesting point in all this was that the survey noted all family members on the various properties, but only the two Williams are noted for the Carpenter property. Thus it would seem that Robert appeared with the two Williams, stayed for a time and left. It would seem also that the Carpenters did not make a permanent move to Shalbourne. Other family members were left behind somewhere else. William jr. may not have stayed in Shalbourne after the paperwork was completed. In 1608 he was just a baby. Also William sr. would likely have traveled to and from his main home to Shalbourne. Another point in the manor documents is that the property William rented from the Seymours was the legal minimum. In other words William had enough land for a kitchen garden. My suspicion is that he wanted just the house because he used it as a base for some other business. In another document a William Carpenter is owed money by a Great Bedwyn weaver (next town to Shalbourne). A point to remember is that William jr. is named in the manor documents because that would give the Carpenters property rights to the end of William jr's lifetime. Thus we can be sure William jr. was William sr's youngest child. More later. BC

Bruce E., Please cite web page for image 2. Please cite web page links or better quotes and cites for the items you are submitting. Thank you. John R. Carpenter La Mesa, CA ----- Original Message ----- From: "Bruce E. Carpenter" <carp@tezukayama-u.ac.jp> To: <Carpenter-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Tuesday, August 21, 2007 10:07 AM Subject: [CARPENTER] DISCOVERY 3 > Please look at image no. 2 for a Thomas Winning of Shalbourne for 1622. > There you will see the bold and nicely scripted signiture of John Brian > (Briant). I do not have my Manor records here in Washington, but I do > recall that John Brian (Briant) was the father of Abagail Briant our > ancestor. Interestingly this sheds a little light on the Briants in that > John was literate. The manor records I have sort out the Briants fairly > well and I will report on this again in September. They had lived in > Shalbourne from Queen Elizabeth's time. John was the son of a William or > vice-versa. > > Bruce Carpenter > Clinton, WA > > > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > CARPENTER-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

Gene Z. wrote on or about the 18th of August concerning the "glebe terrier" that listed William 1 Carpenter. He also mentioned Bruce Carpenters "Rehoboth Carpenter Family" in a Wikipedia posting. This morning on Good Morning America, a segment talked about Wikipedia and how it can be EDITED by almost anyone who choses to do so. I think that we should all be careful of what Wikipedia puts forth as who knows the intent of that particular "editor" and might concern a Carpenter Family. Doesn't sound as if that is completely trustworthy to me. Interesting to know, at least. Bette

Hello list, I just found that my Guy Carlton Carpenter b. 1807 in Chautauqua Co., NY was the son of Ezra Joneth Carpenter (1769-1842) and Susannah Button b. abt 1876 in NY. Guy Carlton married Polly Smith. I have much descendent information to share. Polly Smith's parents were Wheeler Branch Smith and Priscilla Sturdevant. I have not been able to find my Smith or Sturdevant family lines. Joyce Carpenter Sharpley joycesharpley@comcast.net

Thanks Tim, I will check into those name via Madison Co., and elsewhere.? If yu should find anything else I would be most appreciative.????? Always, Meralyn -----Original Message----- From: Tim Stowell <tstowell@chattanooga.net> To: carpenter@rootsweb.com Sent: Sat, 18 Aug 2007 11:19 pm Subject: Re: [CARPENTER] List membership - Main Ok, so digging around a bit more - Milton Maxson Main born March 6, 1802, 5th of 12 children of Deway and Lucinda (Colegrove) Main. It appears his family lived around Lincklaen, Chenango County, NY which is just south of DeRuyter. As an aside, in the 1869 county directory for Lincklaen there is this entry: Carpenter, Johnathan G., (DeRuyter, Madison Co.,) lot 113, farmer 195. For the 1868 county directory for DeRuyter there are these entries: Carpenter, Hannah Mrs., (DeRuyter,) lot 54, farmer 5. Carpenter, John, (Shed's Corners,) lots 29 and 28, farmer 147. This is all I can come up with at the moment. Tim At 11:24 AM 8/15/07 -0400, you wrote: >Thanks for responding Tim: >Theda was documented as being born in De Ruyter, N.Y., That is probably where she and Milton married, but no records found there for their marriage.? 1823 or so they moved to Chenango Co., NY and then on to Cattaragus county where with Milton's brother Sheffield founded the Main Settlement at East Portville New York.? A cousin has said that he found her parents being Joseph?Carpenter, and there is an H.C. Carpenter in the Main Settlement cemetery, which we believe is Harriett C. Carpenter, however no one can give me concrete documentation, or tell me anything about her family.? I do know she had a sister Anna or Keziah, (maybe Keziah Anna) who was one of the first teachers at Main Settlement or Portville.? There is also a Daniel Carpenter who served in the civil war, buried at Main Settlement who married a Mary Thompson, they had a daughter Anna, but I can't tie Theda to this family either.?? I have done all the reserach I can from here and have not been able to make the tri! > p to Portville or De Ruyter to do one on one research there.? However, maybe some of our good Carpenter cousins can give me some clues as to where I can do further research.? Thanks so much, > > >Always, Meralyn ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to CARPENTER-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ________________________________________________________________________ AOL now offers free email to everyone. Find out more about what's free from AOL at AOL.com.

You are welcome. John :-) ----- Original Message ----- From: "gerald" <shaggy41@pmtnet.net> To: <carpenter@rootsweb.com> Sent: Friday, August 17, 2007 3:19 PM Subject: Re: [CARPENTER] re. Carpenter - You are both right Thats good info to know John ,Thank you. Jerry ----- Original Message ----- From: "John R Carpenter (JRC)" <jrcrin001@cox.net> To: <carpenter@rootsweb.com> Sent: Friday, August 17, 2007 12:32 PM Subject: Re: [CARPENTER] re. Carpenter - You are both right Hello, You are both right. Many English "shire" genealogical or historical groups have provided will information for decades. This includes the work by Mr. Hidden. More and more data is being collated from different sources and placed on line weekly. There are several different web pages that have wills and other documents in England. This includes, "... Wiltshire Wills goes live - December 2006." Please remember that when sharing Carpenter data and sources that some websites require passwords and payment. Please cite that when sharing. Most people can not afford to pay for all that which is out there. When sharing restricted sites or data from semi or private sources, cite (copy & paste or write) the critical portion. This is like providing a written review. Reviews, critques and such are allowable under the "Fair Use" portion of Copyright Law. Do not forget to tell the reader where the data came from. For example the following is cited as if under the Fair Use clause: http://www.copyright.gov/title17/92chap1.html#107 "§ 107. Limitations on exclusive rights: Fair use 38 Notwithstanding the provisions of sections 106 and 106A, the fair use of a copyrighted work, including such use by reproduction in copies or phonorecords or by any other means specified by that section, for purposes such as criticism, comment, news reporting, teaching (including multiple copies for classroom use), scholarship, or research, is not an infringement of copyright. In determining whether the use made of a work in any particular case is a fair use the factors to be considered shall include - (1) the purpose and character of the use, including whether such use is of a commercial nature or is for nonprofit educational purposes; (2) the nature of the copyrighted work; (3) the amount and substantiality of the portion used in relation to the copyrighted work as a whole; and (4) the effect of the use upon the potential market for or value of the copyrighted work. The fact that a work is unpublished shall not itself bar a finding of fair use if such finding is made upon consideration of all the above factors." I hope this helps. John R. Carpenter La Mesa, CA ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Greenwood" <daveyg33@yahoo.com> To: <carpenter@rootsweb.com> Sent: Thursday, August 16, 2007 5:20 PM Subject: Re: [CARPENTER] re. Carpenter > Mr. Carpenter is confused. The Wiltshire wills > have been available long enough for Mr. Hidden to > transcribe them and put them on his page by 1998, > and the images have been online since at least > 2004. An ongoing opportunity, dating back quite > some time. Treating with caution is indeed good > advice whenever dealing with someone whose > research may be biased by an arrogant disregard > for facts. > > David > Washington, DC ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to CARPENTER-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to CARPENTER-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Thanks to Gene for his comments. I will share the 1608 document here with everyone. This document could not be photocopied due to its poor condition and had to be transcribed by hand by a staff member at the Wiltshire office. I have a good deal more material than this on the subject. Below: "1 June 1608. To this court came Thomas Hardinge, who held of the lord, by copy of the Court Roll, of the manor aforesaid, bearing the date the third day of August in the last year of the reign of King James, for the term of the life of Thomas Hardinge and of Thomas Hardinge his son and of the life of either of them, one Cottage in Bennettes Hardinge otherwise Newetowne, and six acres and two rods of meadow land and pasture, whereof the site of the said Cottage, curtilage, garden and orchard and in the close lying behind the said Cottage, two rods of meadow and of the aforesaid six acres of arable land , three acres which lie in the west field and in the east field three acres, and a common pasturage for thirty animals in Barwoode heath, with appurtenances, being a parcel in the said manor of Shalborn Westcourt. And this, all and singular the aforesaid premises and all estate, right, title and interest to himself and to the said Thomas Hardinge his son thereof, and to anybody thereof, he surrendered up the parcel into the lord’s hands for the intention as the lord thereafter had made his will above; which premises now being in the lord’s hands, to this court came William Carpenter and took out of the lord’s hands, by the written conveyance of his Steward, according to the custom of the manor aforesaid, all that cottage with the curtilage, garden and orchard and the close of meadow and six acres of arable and common of pasture aforesaid, with the appurtenances, formerly in the tenure of Thomas Hardinge and before that in the tenure of Gilbert Cannon and once of John Perseson junior, to whom the lord, by his Steward, granted seisin by the rod, to have and to hold the entire said Cottage and all the above recited premises taken or leased with the appurtenances to him the aforesaid William Carpenter and to William Carpenter his son, a minor, for and during the term of their lives and of the life of whichever of them lives longer in succession, at the will of the lord, according to the custom of the said manor. Rendering and paying thence yearly five shillings and ten pence and all other charges, works, customs and services previously owed and by right accustomed. And from the agreement they were not retained , nor any of them retained, in service, transferred by sale , but always they were prepared and others of them prepared, to serve the lord King, his heirs and successors, under hire and retention of the said Earl, his heirs and successors. And for such named exchange, estate and entry to be had thereof, he gives to the lord as a fine only 33s 4d in consideration of the surrender aforesaid. And thus he was admitted tenant and made to the lord his fealty of the aforesaid William Carpenter, minor, was adjourned, etc."

Ok, so digging around a bit more - Milton Maxson Main born March 6, 1802, 5th of 12 children of Deway and Lucinda (Colegrove) Main. It appears his family lived around Lincklaen, Chenango County, NY which is just south of DeRuyter. As an aside, in the 1869 county directory for Lincklaen there is this entry: Carpenter, Johnathan G., (DeRuyter, Madison Co.,) lot 113, farmer 195. For the 1868 county directory for DeRuyter there are these entries: Carpenter, Hannah Mrs., (DeRuyter,) lot 54, farmer 5. Carpenter, John, (Shed's Corners,) lots 29 and 28, farmer 147. This is all I can come up with at the moment. Tim At 11:24 AM 8/15/07 -0400, you wrote: >Thanks for responding Tim: >Theda was documented as being born in De Ruyter, N.Y., That is probably where she and Milton married, but no records found there for their marriage.? 1823 or so they moved to Chenango Co., NY and then on to Cattaragus county where with Milton's brother Sheffield founded the Main Settlement at East Portville New York.? A cousin has said that he found her parents being Joseph?Carpenter, and there is an H.C. Carpenter in the Main Settlement cemetery, which we believe is Harriett C. Carpenter, however no one can give me concrete documentation, or tell me anything about her family.? I do know she had a sister Anna or Keziah, (maybe Keziah Anna) who was one of the first teachers at Main Settlement or Portville.? There is also a Daniel Carpenter who served in the civil war, buried at Main Settlement who married a Mary Thompson, they had a daughter Anna, but I can't tie Theda to this family either.?? I have done all the reserach I can from here and have not been able to make the tri! > p to Portville or De Ruyter to do one on one research there.? However, maybe some of our good Carpenter cousins can give me some clues as to where I can do further research.? Thanks so much, > > >Always, Meralyn

Thank you to all the Carpenter researchers who have put endless hours into the study of all these manuscripts; what a daunting yet exciting work. We all benefit from the information that is gleaned from them. As a novice,I personally don't mind some polite bantering as it helps me see the thought processes that are taking place during the process. Keep up the good work. Anita ________________________________________________________________________ Send your friends personalized video messages! Sign up for a FREE Juno account and start sending Video Mail today! http://track.juno.com/s/lc?u=http://ads.addynamix.com/click/2-2130421-177

I'm a faithful reader, too. My uncle participated in the Carpenter DNA project through Family TreeDNA and we learned that our family descends from William Carpenter of Brunswick, VA (b. bet 1730 and 1750; d. abt 1803). Gray Carpenter Church Temecula, California

The "William Carpenter" that appears on page two of the will/inventory seems a bit different that the handwriting on the document as a whole. Someone else please take a close look. I am on my way out for salmon fishing. Bruce Carpenter

In the new Wiltshire Wills site there is an 1628 will for a Thomas Wiseman of Shalbourne with William Carpenter's name at the top. This is a significant find, although I suspect there are many more such discoveries to ne made. You people need to get over your pettiness because your family history is right under your noses for free. Discover it! Sincerely, Bruce Carpenter

would you 2 please continue this discussion off the list Thank You John L. Carpenter List Moderator ************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour

Bruce wrote: << In the new Wiltshire Wills site there is a 1628 will for a Thomas Wiseman of Shalbourne with William Carpenter's name at the top. This is a significant find, . . . >> William Carpenter is named near the top of the estate inventory of Thomas "Wysman" as one of three men who took the inventory (_http://history.wiltshire.gov.uk/wills/P5-1628_104_A1{TCL}.jpg_ (http://history.wiltshire.gov.uk/wills/P5-1628_104_A1{TCL}.jpg) ). Near the end of the latter man's will, Mr. Rowland Hill and William "Capender" are named as overseers, to assist Wiseman's widow/executrix (_http://history.wiltshire.gov.uk/wills/P5-1628_104_B1{TCL}.jpg_ (http://history.wiltshire.gov.uk/wills/P5-1628_104_B1{TCL}.jpg) ). A few years ago, Bruce brought to our attention a 1628 glebe terrier (a record of lands owned by the Shalbourne vicarage) signed by William Carpenter (his mark), church warden. That it is also signed by Rowland Hill, vicar, makes it almost certain that the two aforementioned overseers are identical with the signatories of the glebe terrier. In light of what we learned about William1 Carpenter from the glebe terrier--not only that he was present in Shalbourne parish by 1628 (also indicated by the Wysman probate records) but also that he was a church officer and illiterate--I'd give the glebe terrier more significance. More significant still, however, is a document at which Bruce hints in his "Rehoboth Carpenter Family" Wikipedia posting (which should otherwise be read with great caution): A Westcourt Manor tenant list indicates that William Carpenter and his namesake son (respectively aged 40 and 16 in 1621) were present at Newtown, in the Wiltshire part of Shalbourne parish, by 1608 and had terminated their tenancy by September 1637 (Survey of Shalbourne Westcourt [c1610-1639], Savernake Estate Collection, MS 9/24/460:7, Wiltshire and Swindon Record Office). The younger William's reported age in 1621 is consistent with his age, 33, as recorded on the _Bevis_ passenger list in 1638; both produce an approximate birth year of 1605 (despite occasional claims to the contrary, his precise birth and baptismal dates are unknown). The older man's reported age in 1621, however, produces an approximate birth year of 1681, which is five years later than that calculated from his age, 62, as recorded on the _Bevis_ passenger list. Since his age in 1638 was probably self-reported, it's probably more accurate than that stated in the tenant list. According to an archivist at the Wiltshire and Swindon Record Office, it's typical for tenants' ages to be off by three or four years. Gene Z. ************************************** Get a sneak peek of the all-new AOL at http://discover.aol.com/memed/aolcom30tour