Bill Williams struck a note with me when he suggested that some listers may have struck a brick wall with their research. I am such a person having tried for years from afar ("down under NZ") to prove details of my G Grandfather's John WILLIAMS' birth. I have established from 1881, 91 and 1901 censuses that John was living with his wife Hannah (nee ISAACS - b. Ilston, Swansea, 1854) and expanding family in Marylebone, Middlesex. John s and Hannah had 8 children including my Grandfather Percy b. 1888. In the first 3 censuses, John's place of birth is shown as Llandudno which sent me off on a wild goose chase looking for his birth in Caernarfonshire. Then, when the 1901 was released...bingo....his POB had changed to "Wales - Llandilo Carm" and his age was given as 48. The "breakthrough" I had been hoping for. Chance would be a fine thing however as, 5 years later, I am still no further ahead. I have a copy of John's marriage certificate dated 18 May 1879 showing his occupation as "Joiner" and his father's name as David and occupation Carpenter". The marriage occured in the Trinity Church, Marylebone. If any kind lister out there can help me track down my elusive John Williams with a father named David a carpenter, I would be eternally grateful. Glyn Williams Auckland New Zealand

Hello Glyn If you can put up with my writing down all my thoughts - I hope I may be able to help. I first wondered why you decided that Llandilo, Carmarthenshire was more likely than Llandudno, Caernarfonshire as there were more occurrences of Llandudno than Llandilo? However as his wife Hannah came from the Gower area I suppose South Wales seems a better bet. The other puzzle was that you said you had John in 1881 , 1891 & 1901 - but you then said three census gave Llandudno and the 1901 gave Llandilo - so which is the mossing census? - or did you really mean two gave Llandudno and 1901 gave Llandilo. Have you seen any of the census in the original or just transcriptions? I have London 1891 if you tell me the rerefernce and address I can have a look and see if what it looks like. There was at least one John Williams born about 1854 in Llandudno - but there is one still there in the 1881 census so hopefully that might eliminate him! There are quite a lot of John Williams and David Williams in Carmarthenshire - as you can guess. Have you already traced Hannah's family? If she is the Hannah , daughter of Henry Isaac , cordwainer then I have her and her family in 1861 if you need it. As the family came from Wiltshire I may have them in 1851 too although I haven't looked. I was wondering if John and Hannah met first in South Wales and then moved up to London. I had a look for possibles for John's father and family in South Wales in 1881 and found quite a few possibles which I can send you if you like. However there are two rather interesting ones with a Llandilo connection - in the first the family is living in Llandilo and interestingly the wife is from Windsor, in the second the father was born in Llandilo and the family is living in the Swansea area which would allow the possibility of meeting up with the Isaac family. Here are the 1881 census entries - do any of the children's names follow a family pattern? Dwelling: No 16 New Road Census Place: Llandilo Fawr, Carmarthen, Wales Source: FHL Film 1342298 PRO Ref RG11 Piece 5390 Folio 124 Page 29 Marr Age Sex Birthplace David WILLIAMS M 48 M Llansadwrn, Carmarthen, Wales Rel: Head Occ: Cabinet Maker Anne WILLIAMS M 35 F Windsor Rel: Wife Occ: Cabinet Maker Wife David WILLIAMS 13 M Llandilo, Carmarthen, Wales Rel: Son Occ: Scholar Dwelling: 20 Waun Wen Terrace Census Place: Swansea Town, Glamorgan, Wales Source: FHL Film 1342292 PRO Ref RG11 Piece 5360 Folio 109 Page 4 Marr Age Sex Birthplace David WILLIAMS M 49 M Llandilo, Carmarthen, Wales Rel: Head Occ: Joiner Ann WILLIAMS M 46 F Swansea, Glamorgan, Wales Rel: Wife Margt. WILLIAMS U 19 F Swansea, Glamorgan, Wales Rel: Daur Elizth. WILLIAMS U 17 F Swansea, Glamorgan, Wales Rel: Daur Are there any more clues on the marriage cert? witnesses etc? Let me know what you think All for now Pat In message <42E57AE6.00000F.02972@GLYNWS>, Glyn Williams <glyn.w@xtra.co.nz> writes >Bill Williams struck a note with me when he suggested that some listers may >have struck a brick wall with their research. I am such a person having >tried for years from afar ("down under NZ") to prove details of my G >Grandfather's John WILLIAMS' birth. I have established from 1881, 91 and >1901 censuses that John was living with his wife Hannah (nee ISAACS - b. >Ilston, Swansea, 1854) and expanding family in Marylebone, Middlesex. John >s and Hannah had 8 children including my Grandfather Percy b. 1888. In the >first 3 censuses, John's place of birth is shown as Llandudno which sent me >off on a wild goose chase looking for his birth in Caernarfonshire. Then, >when the 1901 was released...bingo....his POB had changed to "Wales - >Llandilo Carm" and his age was given as 48. The "breakthrough" I had been >hoping for. Chance would be a fine thing however as, 5 years later, I am >still no further ahead. > >I have a copy of John's marriage certificate dated 18 May 1879 showing his >occupation as "Joiner" and his father's name as David and occupation >Carpenter". The marriage occured in the Trinity Church, Marylebone. > >If any kind lister out there can help me track down my elusive John Williams >with a father named David a carpenter, I would be eternally grateful. > >Glyn Williams >Auckland >New Zealand > > >==== CARMARTHENSHIRE Mailing List ==== >Carmarthenshire Place Names Database - Looking for a farm etc you cannot find - >Contact - PeterWihl@compuserve.com - Let him know the name of the Farm House etc >etc - He will search the Database > -- Pat Powell