Hello Listers, I am reposting this message because of on-going difficulties getting my messages to the List. I am now using MS Outlook which I am confident enables me to send messages in "Plain Text" - having found that "IncrediMail" seems incapable of this function. Bill Williams hit a note with me when he suggested a few weeks ago that some listers may have struck a brick wall with their research. I am such a person having tried for years from afar ("down under NZ") to prove details of my G.Grandfather John WILLIAMS' birth. I have established from 1881, 91 and 1901 censuses that John was living with his wife Hannah (nee ISAACS - b.Ilston, Swansea, 1854) and expanding family in Marylebone, Middlesex. John and Hannah had 8 children including my Grandfather Percy b. 1888. In the first 2 censuses, John's place of birth is shown as Llandudno which sent me off on a wild goose chase looking for his birth in Caernarfonshire. Then, when the 1901 was released...bingo....his POB had changed to "Wales - Llandilo Carm" - the "breakthrough" I had been hoping for. Chance would be a fine thing however as, 4 years later, I am still no further ahead. I have original census copies not transcripts and John's age was given as 48 in the 1901. I have a copy of John's marriage certificate dated 18 May 1879 showing his occupation as "Joiner" and his father's name as David with occupation "Carpenter". The marriage occured in the Trinity Church, Marylebone. No further clues on the marriage cert - eg no mother's name and witness names of no help. There is also the obvious question of how John met up with Hannah Isaacs who was born in Ilston and was still living there in the 1871 census. The Llandilo "discovery" provided a possible answer. I have concluded that Hannah must have met John in Swansea/South Wales and moved to London some time between 1871 and 1879. Ironically, I have found it much easier to trace Hannah's family from their original location in Wiltshire and at the same time discovered what "cordwainers" and "gloverers" were. There was also a hazy family story that my father (10) and his brother (5) were sent to a boarding school in Llandovery after the premature death of their mother in 1920 - possible family connections in the area perhaps? This has just been confirmed as fact by the archivist at Llandovery College. If any kind lister out there can help me track down my elusive John Williams with a father named David, a carpenter, I would be eternally grateful. Again, my grateful thanks to Pat for her valuable assistance and to Eirwyn for his ideas and suggestions and I would welcome any other assistance or advice Cmn listers may be able to offer. Thanks & Best wishes Glyn Auckland NZ