Dear Sue You say that three possible fathers of Mary Thomas are: Morgan DAVID: Thomas LEWIS: Thomas RYTHERCH In the first case Mary would probably have been illegitimate, but in the other two, the families may still have been using the patronymic system of naming, under which there were no fixed surnames, and instead the child took its father's forename as second name (and often the grandfather's forename as third name etc). So it is quite feasible for Mary Thomas to have been the daughter of Thomas Lewis. For more information see http://home.clara.net/wfha/wales/faq/#c01 By this period, most places in Wales had adopted the English style of surname, but Llanddeusant was remote and very traditional, with some families still using patronymics at the time of the 1851 census. Unfortunately the IGI makes the assumption that the patronymic system was universally in use before 1812, and surnames after that date, so it is a very unreliable source of full names. Mary Thomas the daughter of Thomas Lewis may never have existed - she may well have been called Mary Lewis. And there may have been a Mary Thomas who is down in the IGI with a different second name, because her family was already using a fixed surname, but the IGI has assumed otherwise. A further consequence is that people with the same common surname may well not be related, even if they come from the same village. I hope that this doesn't sound impossibly confusing. The most important message is to use the original parish registers rather than the IGI, which can be positively misleading. . Patronymics can actually be more helpful than surnames once you get into them, but it is difficult when you don't know which system the family is using. Good luck Anna -----Original Message----- From: PT & S Kinsella <kinceller@iprimus.com.au> To: CARMARTHENSHIRE-L@rootsweb.com <CARMARTHENSHIRE-L@rootsweb.com> Date: 06 December 2005 23:23 Subject: Re: [Cmn-L] 1841 Query. >Can someone answer this please, Having found the husband of Mary THOMAS, to be Thomas THOMAS, I assumed they would be related and so started to look for the baptism of Mary. I find There are a number of possibilities but not one of them is a THOMAS. possible fathers are >Morgan DAVID: Thomas LEWIS: Thomas RYTHERCH: >There are no mothers and I am at a loss as to where to go from here. >Thank You Sue Kinsella > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Alayne and Glen Jenkins" <jinxs104@yahoo.co.uk> >To: <CARMARTHENSHIRE-L@rootsweb.com> >Sent: Wednesday, December 07, 2005 8:10 AM >Subject: Re: [Cmn-L] 1841 Query. > > >> Sue >> >> Another christening given possible marriage date >> MARY THOMAS - International Genealogical Index >> Gender: Female Christening: 24 OCT 1824 Llanddeusant, >> Carmarthen, Wales >> >> Glen Jenkins >> >> --- PT & S Kinsella <kinceller@iprimus.com.au> wrote: >> >>> Can anyone find this family in 1841 for me. I had >>> hoped to find the husband of the family in 1851, but >>> now in view of the fact the the youngest child is >>> born in 1841, have my fingers crossed and hope that >>> someone can help. They are on a farm which seems to >>> have various spellings. Cilgerddan being the most >>> recent. I am in hopeful anticipation of a good >>> result. Sue Kinsella from Australia. >>> >>> 1851 Cilgarhan Llanddausant Carmarthenshire >>> Mary Thomas 1805 Head widow 46 farmer of 82 >>> Acres Llanddausaint, Carmarthenshire, Wales >>> Mary Thomas 1826 Daug Un 25 >>> Llanddausaint, Carmarthenshire, Wales >>> Margaret Thomas 1829 Daug Un 22 Llanddausaint, >>> Carmarthenshire, Wales >>> Jane Thomas 1831 Daug Un 20 >>> Llanddausaint, Carmarthenshire, Wales >>> Elizabeth Thomas 1833 Daug Un 18 Llanddausaint, >>> Carmarthenshire, Wales >>> Thomas Thomas 1836 Son Un 15 Llanddausaint, >>> Carmarthenshire, Wales >>> Anne Thomas 1841 Daug Un 10 >>> Llanddausaint, Carmarthenshire, Wales >>> Daniel Davies 1831 Serv Un agricltural >>> servant Llanarthney, Carmarthenshire, Wales >>> >>> 1861 Cilgertham Llanddausant Carmarthenshire >>> Thomas Thomas 1836 Head Un 28 Llanddausaint, >>> Carmarthenshire, Wales >>> Mary Thomas 1805 mother widow 66 farmer of 86 >>> Acres Llanddausaint, Carmarthenshire, Wales >>> Mary Thomas 1826 sister Un 38 >>> Llanddausaint, Carmarthenshire, Wales >>> Nancy Thomas 1841 sister Un 18 >>> Llanddausaint, Carmarthenshire, Wales >>> >>> >>> >>> ==== CARMARTHENSHIRE Mailing List ==== >>> Wales Genealogy CD's for Wales research >>> http://www.Wales-Genealogy.co.uk >>> >>> >> >> >> >> >> ___________________________________________________________ >> Yahoo! Exclusive Xmas Game, help Santa with his celebrity party - http://santas-christmas-party.yahoo.net/ >> >> >> ==== CARMARTHENSHIRE Mailing List ==== >> Wales Genealogy CD's for Wales research >> http://www.Wales-Genealogy.co.uk >> > > >==== CARMARTHENSHIRE Mailing List ==== >I use Wales Genealogy CD's for my research >http://www.Wales-Genealogy.co.uk >

Hello Sue Anna as commented that "The most important message is to use the original parish registers rather than the IGI" I disagree with this statement. I believe it is important to use both. There are considerable limitations to the IGI particularly with patronymic system but even here the IGI can be useful. I suggest you read Chris Pitt Lewis (1998) 'The IGI for Wales' in Rowlands J. and Rowlands S. (Eds) Welsh Family History: A Guide To Research, 2nd Ed., Birmmingham : The Federations of Family History Societies. Unfortunately or fortunately from my perspective, it is the best aggregate data on most parish records (though weak for Wales as a whole) for those of us who cannot gain access to the parish records. Even indexes produced by the family history societies cannot be error free. Where I do agree with Anna is that you should always check with the original source of any information where possible - whether it be a parish record or a census - not only for verification but because it may have more information than indexed. Also, the baptisms of the children of Mary Thomas I sent earlier were sent because the IGI complied with the information you sent from census data. The chances therefore of the IGI being incorrect are limited when two idependent sources confirm the same information across a range of population/family. Personally I prefer three sources e.g. civil registration, but that is not always possible; but may be possible with those born after September 1837. So continue using the IGI but remember its limitations and always verify and corroborate what you have found. Best luck in your research Glen Jenkins --- Bruetons <bruetons@ukgateway.net> wrote: > Dear Sue > > You say that three possible fathers of Mary Thomas > are: > Morgan DAVID: Thomas LEWIS: Thomas RYTHERCH > > In the first case Mary would probably have been > illegitimate, but in the > other two, the families may still have been using > the patronymic system of > naming, under which there were no fixed surnames, > and instead the child took > its father's forename as second name (and often the > grandfather's forename > as third name etc). So it is quite feasible for > Mary Thomas to have been > the daughter of Thomas Lewis. For more information > see > http://home.clara.net/wfha/wales/faq/#c01 > > By this period, most places in Wales had adopted the > English style of > surname, but Llanddeusant was remote and very > traditional, with some > families still using patronymics at the time of the > 1851 census. > > Unfortunately the IGI makes the assumption that the > patronymic system was > universally in use before 1812, and surnames after > that date, so it is a > very unreliable source of full names. Mary Thomas > the daughter of Thomas > Lewis may never have existed - she may well have > been called Mary Lewis. > And there may have been a Mary Thomas who is down in > the IGI with a > different second name, because her family was > already using a fixed surname, > but the IGI has assumed otherwise. > > A further consequence is that people with the same > common surname may well > not be related, even if they come from the same > village. > > I hope that this doesn't sound impossibly confusing. > The most important > message is to use the original parish registers > rather than the IGI, which > can be positively misleading. . Patronymics can > actually be more helpful > than surnames once you get into them, but it is > difficult when you don't > know which system the family is using. > > Good luck > > Anna > > -----Original Message----- > From: PT & S Kinsella <kinceller@iprimus.com.au> > To: CARMARTHENSHIRE-L@rootsweb.com > <CARMARTHENSHIRE-L@rootsweb.com> > Date: 06 December 2005 23:23 > Subject: Re: [Cmn-L] 1841 Query. > > > >Can someone answer this please, Having found the > husband of Mary THOMAS, to > be Thomas THOMAS, I assumed they would be related > and so started to look for > the baptism of Mary. I find There are a number of > possibilities but not one > of them is a THOMAS. possible fathers are > >Morgan DAVID: Thomas LEWIS: Thomas RYTHERCH: > >There are no mothers and I am at a loss as to where > to go from here. > >Thank You Sue Kinsella > > > >----- Original Message ----- > >From: "Alayne and Glen Jenkins" > <jinxs104@yahoo.co.uk> > >To: <CARMARTHENSHIRE-L@rootsweb.com> > >Sent: Wednesday, December 07, 2005 8:10 AM > >Subject: Re: [Cmn-L] 1841 Query. > > > > > >> Sue > >> > >> Another christening given possible marriage date > >> MARY THOMAS - International Genealogical Index > >> Gender: Female Christening: 24 OCT 1824 > Llanddeusant, > >> Carmarthen, Wales > >> > >> Glen Jenkins > >> > >> --- PT & S Kinsella <kinceller@iprimus.com.au> > wrote: > >> > >>> Can anyone find this family in 1841 for me. I > had > >>> hoped to find the husband of the family in 1851, > but > >>> now in view of the fact the the youngest child > is > >>> born in 1841, have my fingers crossed and hope > that > >>> someone can help. They are on a farm which seems > to > >>> have various spellings. Cilgerddan being the > most > >>> recent. I am in hopeful anticipation of a good > >>> result. Sue Kinsella from Australia. > >>> > >>> 1851 Cilgarhan Llanddausant Carmarthenshire > >>> Mary Thomas 1805 Head widow 46 farmer of > 82 > >>> Acres Llanddausaint, Carmarthenshire, Wales > >>> Mary Thomas 1826 Daug Un 25 > >>> Llanddausaint, Carmarthenshire, Wales > >>> Margaret Thomas 1829 Daug Un 22 > Llanddausaint, > >>> Carmarthenshire, Wales > >>> Jane Thomas 1831 Daug Un 20 > >>> Llanddausaint, Carmarthenshire, Wales > >>> Elizabeth Thomas 1833 Daug Un 18 > Llanddausaint, > >>> Carmarthenshire, Wales > >>> Thomas Thomas 1836 Son Un 15 > Llanddausaint, > >>> Carmarthenshire, Wales > >>> Anne Thomas 1841 Daug Un 10 > >>> Llanddausaint, Carmarthenshire, Wales > >>> Daniel Davies 1831 Serv Un agricltural > >>> servant Llanarthney, Carmarthenshire, Wales > >>> > >>> 1861 Cilgertham Llanddausant Carmarthenshire > >>> Thomas Thomas 1836 Head Un 28 > Llanddausaint, > >>> Carmarthenshire, Wales > >>> Mary Thomas 1805 mother widow 66 farmer of > 86 > >>> Acres Llanddausaint, Carmarthenshire, Wales > >>> Mary Thomas 1826 sister Un 38 > >>> Llanddausaint, Carmarthenshire, Wales > >>> Nancy Thomas 1841 sister Un 18 > >>> Llanddausaint, Carmarthenshire, Wales > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> ==== CARMARTHENSHIRE Mailing List ==== > >>> Wales Genealogy CD's for Wales research > >>> http://www.Wales-Genealogy.co.uk > >>> > >>> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > ___________________________________________________________ > >> Yahoo! Exclusive Xmas Game, help Santa with his > celebrity party - > http://santas-christmas-party.yahoo.net/ > >> > >> > >> ==== CARMARTHENSHIRE Mailing List ==== > >> Wales Genealogy CD's for Wales research > >> http://www.Wales-Genealogy.co.uk > >> > > > > > >==== CARMARTHENSHIRE Mailing List ==== > >I use Wales Genealogy CD's for my research > >http://www.Wales-Genealogy.co.uk > > > > > > ==== CARMARTHENSHIRE Mailing List ==== > I use Wales Genealogy CD's for my research > http://www.Wales-Genealogy.co.uk > > ___________________________________________________________ To help you stay safe and secure online, we've developed the all new Yahoo! Security Centre. http://uk.security.yahoo.com

HI Anna and Glen The IGI should only be used as a 'finding' aid......the IGI does NOT have any parish registers for Wales only the bishops transcripts (which sometimes differ so much from the parish registers) and the non-conformist registers (non-conformists are mainly between 1813-1837)........ The IGI on line is even more confusing than the IGI on fiche......you can see what is happening on the fiche especially if a relative has added the information and not from any source but guesswork - because they think they 'should' be there......also when there is a name which was David John - they indexed them under David John and John David.......!!!! As we all know the Welsh names were mainly first names which became surnames....so it can throw you in the wrong direction. Every index is a tremendous aid, but as stated by both Anna and Glen when finding the information you should always consult the original source.. Hope this helps Pauline ----- Original Message ----- From: "Alayne and Glen Jenkins" <jinxs104@yahoo.co.uk> To: <CARMARTHENSHIRE-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Friday, December 09, 2005 4:47 PM Subject: Re: [Cmn-L] 1841 Query. > Hello Sue > > Anna as commented that > "The most important message is to use the original > parish registers rather than the IGI" > > I disagree with this statement. I believe it is > important to use both. There are considerable > limitations to the IGI particularly with patronymic > system but even here the IGI can be useful. I suggest > you read Chris Pitt Lewis (1998) 'The IGI for Wales' > in Rowlands J. and Rowlands S. (Eds) Welsh Family > History: A Guide To Research, 2nd Ed., Birmmingham : > The Federations of Family History Societies. > Unfortunately or fortunately from my perspective, it > is the best aggregate data on most parish records > (though weak for Wales as a whole) for those of us who > cannot gain access to the parish records. Even indexes > produced by the family history societies cannot be > error free. > > Where I do agree with Anna is that you should always > check with the original source of any information > where possible - whether it be a parish record or a > census - not only for verification but because it may > have more information than indexed. > > Also, the baptisms of the children of Mary Thomas I > sent earlier were sent because the IGI complied with > the information you sent from census data. The chances > therefore of the IGI being incorrect are limited when > two idependent sources confirm the same information > across a range of population/family. Personally I > prefer three sources e.g. civil registration, but that > is not always possible; but may be possible with those > born after September 1837. > > So continue using the IGI but remember its limitations > and always verify and corroborate what you have found. > > Best luck in your research > > Glen Jenkins > --- Bruetons <bruetons@ukgateway.net> wrote: > >> Dear Sue >> >> You say that three possible fathers of Mary Thomas >> are: >> Morgan DAVID: Thomas LEWIS: Thomas RYTHERCH >> >> In the first case Mary would probably have been >> illegitimate, but in the >> other two, the families may still have been using >> the patronymic system of >> naming, under which there were no fixed surnames, >> and instead the child took >> its father's forename as second name (and often the >> grandfather's forename >> as third name etc). So it is quite feasible for >> Mary Thomas to have been >> the daughter of Thomas Lewis. For more information >> see >> http://home.clara.net/wfha/wales/faq/#c01 >> >> By this period, most places in Wales had adopted the >> English style of >> surname, but Llanddeusant was remote and very >> traditional, with some >> families still using patronymics at the time of the >> 1851 census. >> >> Unfortunately the IGI makes the assumption that the >> patronymic system was >> universally in use before 1812, and surnames after >> that date, so it is a >> very unreliable source of full names. Mary Thomas >> the daughter of Thomas >> Lewis may never have existed - she may well have >> been called Mary Lewis. >> And there may have been a Mary Thomas who is down in >> the IGI with a >> different second name, because her family was >> already using a fixed surname, >> but the IGI has assumed otherwise. >> >> A further consequence is that people with the same >> common surname may well >> not be related, even if they come from the same >> village. >> >> I hope that this doesn't sound impossibly confusing. >> The most important >> message is to use the original parish registers >> rather than the IGI, which >> can be positively misleading. . Patronymics can >> actually be more helpful >> than surnames once you get into them, but it is >> difficult when you don't >> know which system the family is using. >> >> Good luck >> >> Anna >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: PT & S Kinsella <kinceller@iprimus.com.au> >> To: CARMARTHENSHIRE-L@rootsweb.com >> <CARMARTHENSHIRE-L@rootsweb.com> >> Date: 06 December 2005 23:23 >> Subject: Re: [Cmn-L] 1841 Query. >> >> >> >Can someone answer this please, Having found the >> husband of Mary THOMAS, to >> be Thomas THOMAS, I assumed they would be related >> and so started to look for >> the baptism of Mary. I find There are a number of >> possibilities but not one >> of them is a THOMAS. possible fathers are >> >Morgan DAVID: Thomas LEWIS: Thomas RYTHERCH: >> >There are no mothers and I am at a loss as to where >> to go from here. >> >Thank You Sue Kinsella >> > >> >----- Original Message ----- >> >From: "Alayne and Glen Jenkins" >> <jinxs104@yahoo.co.uk> >> >To: <CARMARTHENSHIRE-L@rootsweb.com> >> >Sent: Wednesday, December 07, 2005 8:10 AM >> >Subject: Re: [Cmn-L] 1841 Query. >> > >> > >> >> Sue >> >> >> >> Another christening given possible marriage date >> >> MARY THOMAS - International Genealogical Index >> >> Gender: Female Christening: 24 OCT 1824 >> Llanddeusant, >> >> Carmarthen, Wales >> >> >> >> Glen Jenkins >> >> >> >> --- PT & S Kinsella <kinceller@iprimus.com.au> >> wrote: >> >> >> >>> Can anyone find this family in 1841 for me. I >> had >> >>> hoped to find the husband of the family in 1851, >> but >> >>> now in view of the fact the the youngest child >> is >> >>> born in 1841, have my fingers crossed and hope >> that >> >>> someone can help. They are on a farm which seems >> to >> >>> have various spellings. Cilgerddan being the >> most >> >>> recent. I am in hopeful anticipation of a good >> >>> result. Sue Kinsella from Australia. >> >>> >> >>> 1851 Cilgarhan Llanddausant Carmarthenshire >> >>> Mary Thomas 1805 Head widow 46 farmer of >> 82 >> >>> Acres Llanddausaint, Carmarthenshire, Wales >> >>> Mary Thomas 1826 Daug Un 25 >> >>> Llanddausaint, Carmarthenshire, Wales >> >>> Margaret Thomas 1829 Daug Un 22 >> Llanddausaint, >> >>> Carmarthenshire, Wales >> >>> Jane Thomas 1831 Daug Un 20 >> >>> Llanddausaint, Carmarthenshire, Wales >> >>> Elizabeth Thomas 1833 Daug Un 18 >> Llanddausaint, >> >>> Carmarthenshire, Wales >> >>> Thomas Thomas 1836 Son Un 15 >> Llanddausaint, >> >>> Carmarthenshire, Wales >> >>> Anne Thomas 1841 Daug Un 10 >> >>> Llanddausaint, Carmarthenshire, Wales >> >>> Daniel Davies 1831 Serv Un agricltural >> >>> servant Llanarthney, Carmarthenshire, Wales >> >>> >> >>> 1861 Cilgertham Llanddausant Carmarthenshire >> >>> Thomas Thomas 1836 Head Un 28 >> Llanddausaint, >> >>> Carmarthenshire, Wales >> >>> Mary Thomas 1805 mother widow 66 farmer of >> 86 >> >>> Acres Llanddausaint, Carmarthenshire, Wales >> >>> Mary Thomas 1826 sister Un 38 >> >>> Llanddausaint, Carmarthenshire, Wales >> >>> Nancy Thomas 1841 sister Un 18 >> >>> Llanddausaint, Carmarthenshire, Wales >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> ==== CARMARTHENSHIRE Mailing List ==== >> >>> Wales Genealogy CD's for Wales research >> >>> http://www.Wales-Genealogy.co.uk >> >>> >> >>> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > ___________________________________________________________ >> >> Yahoo! Exclusive Xmas Game, help Santa with his >> celebrity party - >> http://santas-christmas-party.yahoo.net/ >> >> >> >> >> >> ==== CARMARTHENSHIRE Mailing List ==== >> >> Wales Genealogy CD's for Wales research >> >> http://www.Wales-Genealogy.co.uk >> >> >> > >> > >> >==== CARMARTHENSHIRE Mailing List ==== >> >I use Wales Genealogy CD's for my research >> >http://www.Wales-Genealogy.co.uk >> > >> >> >> >> ==== CARMARTHENSHIRE Mailing List ==== >> I use Wales Genealogy CD's for my research >> http://www.Wales-Genealogy.co.uk >> >> > > > > > ___________________________________________________________ > To help you stay safe and secure online, we've developed the all new > Yahoo! Security Centre. http://uk.security.yahoo.com > > > ==== CARMARTHENSHIRE Mailing List ==== > GenWeb & Genconnect pages for your genealogical web links and research > questions & Quiries. > http://www.carmarthenshirefhs.co.uk >