Hi Guy, I am quite sure that Births and deaths would have been recorded, by the Plantation/Estate Doctors and Drivers to give to the Overseers and by the latter to the Plantation Managers/Attorneys or Owners where the latter existed. This material (especially deaths) had to be recorded for the Colonial and India Office, if not at the beginning of the experiment, certainly as it progressed. The Plantations/Estates had to keep meticulous records for personnell replacement reasons, but also to protect/defend themselves against the charge of the abolitionists, and later the Missionaries and later the Immigration-Agent-General that they were introducing and practicing a New Slavery, with as much carelessness and brutality as the previous slave-owners. In the early years, many plantations, formerly had slaves, and many of the indentured, East Indians and Madeiran Portuguese, moved into slave quarters, and not to forget the 200 or so Germans who were first indentured, and all of whom promptly died, as did many of the early Portuguese/Madeirans. So the abolitionists who opposed Indentureship and later missionaries were keeping a watchful eye, and frequently raised a hue and cry. So such records were important as they would determine how the experiment was to continue and how long it would last. It was stopped a few times, but lasted close to a hundred years. I am of course talking about the situation in British Guiana and much of what comes below comes from there. Records would be part of the Plantation records, with summaries being sent or not sent until requested or exposed in the series of subsequent enquiries, to the colonial authorities locally. The deaths of Hindus would also be a public health matter as it required cremation. So this may have been another way in which such deaths would appear in the records. But I suspect this would appear a little later after the experiment of indentureship began, and in keeping with Public Health reform in England itself, and in the Colonies and in the case of Guyana and England, such reform was spurred by the fear of the same scourge, Cholera. I am sure that all deaths had to be certified by a Doctor. It was also the case that a suspicous death would require a police investigation. So such deaths would probably appear in the local police records. The Muslims and later Christians would have burial records if only because land had to be set aside for cemetaries. These would also have to be in the Plantation records for medical and police reasons. This brings us to marriages which would also appear in Estate/Plantation records and also police records. The Plantation had to allocate housing to the labourers. Where in the records a male and female were placed in the same lodging, this would indicate some kind of conjugal relationship. It must be remembered that such marriages would have been apparently informal affairs, but were very real to those entering into them. Not the gaudy affairs we are now accustomed to in the West, or what we see portrayed in most Indian movies. Informal in India among the poor, and informal in the colonies, not only because they were poor, but more so because the community and kinship relations were largely absent in the colonies. Once the community had been "rebuilt" and I use that word very loosely, marriages did become more as we know it to-day, a community and a "dress-up" affair. Also, discretionary income was not likely to go into a marriage ceremony, with or without a Pandit or a Moulvi. The latter were largely absent for a long time before the community grew in size, as they were not likely to be knowingly indentured by the agents in India, and when they did emerge religious leaders, they were seen and treated as trouble-makers. But it must be remembered that marriage and divorce among Hindus and Muslims can be a personal ritual performed by the male. This was likely to be the case in the absence of a fully "staffed" community. Discretionary income would go into jewellery, a form of saving and decoration, and an indication of married status, and also wherever possible into savings that could be sent back or taken back to India, and not into a marriage ceremony. But I did mention police records above in relation to marriages. Why would this have been the case? Precisely because of the disproportionate ratio of males to females, other males or females themselves were suspect and even guilty of compromising such marriages. When only suspect, there would be cases of "wife-beating" and assaults between the males. When guilty, there would be cases of assault, attempted murder and actual murder of males and females. So there would be information in the plantation/estate/police records of assaults, trials, subsequent fines, imprisonments or whipping, and hangings. Much the same can be said of the Chinese. But the latter's case was a little different. Many of these if not married before they left China, could also be married after they left, in both cases in the hope that their wife could join them later, as it was important in Chinese ancestor worship that there would be some-one to tend to the ancestors remains. Many Chinese would support a wife they had never seen, or not seen, for many years, (or never see if any of the parties died) for such "religious' reasons. The Chinese also were not averse to meet their sexual needs from among the Creole women. Many who apparently were "married" or apparently "married" usually showed the farce of it when such "wives" especially Chinese "wives" were subsequently transferred to another as a result of gambling. In the case of Guyana, the East Indian were stereotyped for wife beating and murder, but not the Chinese. The latter was more noted for praedial larceny in the early years, and later for gambling, opium dens and brothels (of mixed and creole women). Many Indians on the Plantations, for as long as they remained on the Plantations did not have the opportunity to mix and mingle with the Creole women, and there was considerable animosity between the Creoles and the East Indian groups from the very beginning for religious/cultural and economic reasons. But then there developed the class of the "time-expired" East Indians. These were those who had served their contracts, and who did not return to India. Many could not, as they did not acquire enough money to take back home to their villages to pay the Pandit for ceremonies to remove their loss of caste from crossing the Kala Pani or the Black water, that is the Ocean. Many may have also incurred debts that they did not or could not repay when they were on contract, or could not repay if they returned. (Many were too sickly from the ravages of the Plantation or from chronic diseases of parasites, including malaria. Many were also addicted to Bhang or Ganja. Among the Chinese many were addicted to Opium, which would also determine how much they would be able to work and how much money they could earn). So from the latter groups many did end up in the Creole villages, and towns, and some did end up cohabiting and having children with Creole women. At a time when the Creoles were being Christianized, such unions would not produce records of births in the Church registers. Because they would be seen as "fornication" and worse yet with the Heathen. The adults of such unions when they "accepted Christ" would be recorded and so would their children, who accepted Christ along with their parents and those subsequently born in the particular denomination of their parents. Meanwhile the larger Indian Community was being slowly rebuilt, by new indentures and time-expired Indians, and a better ratio of males to females. There were also many who also lived outside the Estate/Plantation. By the time of the end of Indentureship, there was a significant community based on Rice cultivation, and a Middle Class of Educated mostly Christianised East Indians. The same can be said of the Chinese and their community. Both On/Off Estate/Plantation East Indians and Chinese became the beneficiaries of the General Schemes of Colonial Development beginning after WWII, in terms of education, and health care. This also means more and better records. There is likely to be better records for the Christianised East Indians and Chinese than non-Christian others. I do not recall when the marriages for Hindus and Muslims were legally recognised in Guyana. I do not think they ever were before 1970. I know that their marriages had also to be recorded by the Registrar, decades before their Pandits and Moulvis ceremonies were recognised as legal. The latter I think happened soon after Republican status in 1970. But there were the Censuses that began with the Slave registers and continued with the Decennial General Population Censuses from the 1831. Indians and others were included in the subsequent ones. For a number of years I have been hoping to find the actual Census returns for the personal information that such would contain, but I have not been yet successful. But I mention them here in case any-one has seen or know of such. I also fear that they may have been disposed of because of destruction from age and heat. Enquiries to the Guyana Archives failed to ascertain what is there, returns? or summaries? and I know that there was a general house-cleaning of the Parliament Buldings Rotunda in the '50's and/or '60s, where such records were likely to be kept as part of Treasury records. So here I will end this. I hope the above helps. It is sketchy in detail and largely limited to Guyana, but I am sure relevant to Jamaica and Trinidad. Let me know if I answered any of your original query. Thanks. Richard. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Guy Grannum" <guy@gcgrannum.freeserve.co.uk> To: <CARIBBEAN-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Friday, June 06, 2003 2:40 AM Subject: East Indian and Chinese Indentured Immigration W.I. > This discussion has been extremely useful - in terms of bibliographies. > > I wonder if anyone can offer advice on a question I posed a while ago - that > of vital records for the East Indian community. > > Many, if not most, of the East Indian immigrants predated civil registration > and as most were not Christians would not be recorded in the usual Caribbean > sources - namely parish registers. > > What was the practice for recording their births, marriages and > deaths/burials, if at all? May be this was oral tradition as practiced in > India. I understand that in Trinidad Muslim marriages were not recognised > until about 1936 and Hindu marriages until about 1946 - this meant that such > 'married' couples were considered common-law relationship and were basically > single from a legal point of view and any children were illegitimate, this > also effected laws of probate for intestacy (dying without leaving a valid > will) and later British citizenship and belonging (as citizenship passed > through legitimate fathers). > > However, for such marriages not to be recognised must mean that these > marriages occurred. Were such events written down? > > I have tried numerous social histories and websites - there is plenty > describing the migrations, immigration controls and working conditions but > really there is nothing of serious use to the genealogist. > > Another non-Christian group of post emancipation labourers, which again > predate civil registration, are the Chinese labourers. They first arrived in > Trinidad in 1806 although the next waves were not until the 1840s in Guyana, > Jamaica and Trinidad. Was anything recorded about their life events? > However, very few Chinese women migrated until the 1860s and I understand > that the normal practice was for Chinese men to return to China in order to > marry and would remain. But after 1860 some 'marriages' must have taken > place according to homeland practices - may be their numbers were too small > to establish their own places of worship and that births and marriages went > unrecorded. I assume that burials would occur but in the municipal > cemeteries rather than church yards. > > There is an excellent site relating to the Chinese in Guyana by Trev > Sue-A-Quan at http://www.rootsweb.com/~guycigtr/ > > I welcome any thoughts and advice. > > Thanks > > Guy > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Richard Allicock" <richwyn@idirect.com> > To: <CARIBBEAN-L@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Friday, June 06, 2003 9:16 AM > Subject: East Indian Indenture Immigration W.I. > > > > Hi Listers, > > > > I think I have come to the end of the research material for East Indian > Indenture Immigration to the West Indies. > > > > I took a look at Chedie's List on his Website "East Indian Laborers in the > Caribbean 1838 to 1930." > > > > I have produced some material for the places in Brackets. The places that > are unbracketed are yet to be provided for in terms of historical research > material. > > > > So others are free to pitch in and hlep to complete the List and the > thread. > > > > Please stick to the Subject line. Thanks. > > > > Here's the list of places done and not done: > > > > Belize, Fr. Guiana, Grenada, Guadaloupe, [Guyana], [Jamaica], Martinique, > Nevis, St. Croix, St. Kitts, St. Lucia, [St. Vincent], [Surinam] and > [Trinidad] > > > > > > ==== CARIBBEAN Mailing List ==== > > For information on individual islands, research aids, island bulletin > boards or history please visit the CaribbeanGenWeb project at > > http://www.rootsweb.com/~caribgw/ > > > > > > > ==== CARIBBEAN Mailing List ==== > For information on individual islands, research aids, island bulletin boards or history please visit the CaribbeanGenWeb project at > http://www.rootsweb.com/~caribgw/ > >

Richard Thank you very much for your detailed response - and for the wonderful bibliographies. In short the answer seems to be that there are no religious records and few state records unless the authorities needed to intervene. In common with their labouring predecessors one needs to try plantation records and other tangential records. This means that researchers won't be able to check the usual sources. I had forgotten about the role of the protectors of immigrants/labourers (previously protectors of slaves) however I'm not sure if all islands had these officials - some reports of protectors of slaves c1824-1834 can be found in The National Archives (Public Record Office) but only for Trinidad, British Guiana and St Lucia; I know that Barbados had stipendiary magistrates that had a similar role but I'm not aware of any reports being routinely forwarded to the Colonial Office. I assume that if they survive these will be with the archive or may be still with the immigration department. There are quite a few interesting articles and pages on the internet such as: An essay on how Hinduism developed differently in Guyana and Suriname at http://www.hinduismtoday.com/archives/2001/1-2/2001-1-08.shtml. It mentions that the first Hindu cremation in Guyana didn't occur until 1956. and http://www.caribbeanhindu.com/Arrival.htm - which gives some interesting statistics. Searching on the authors takes you into further into unexplored territories. Guy <snip>