Hi Chris, Thanks the encouraging words and for your contribution to the topic. Never mind the limitations of the moment. Looking forward to your continued contributions. Best regards, Richard ----- Original Message ----- From: "christopher codrington" <chriscod@comcast.net> To: <CARIBBEAN-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Wednesday, June 11, 2003 7:11 AM Subject: RE: East Indian Indenture Immigration W.I. Names > Hi Richard > > I have not read your posting in full but you have brought up several > intriguing issues which are very pertinent to carib gen and learning in > general. There is only one which at this time I can respond to and that is > you interest in the variability of language and spelling. > > London standard did not exist until 1920 or thereabouts. Spelling was > entirely phonetic and very regional. I have always dreamt of what it might > have sounded like on Antigua in 1741 with Scotsmen and Irishmen and > Englishmen and dutch and Spaniards all occupying the same island trying to > mak a killing at raising sugar or in your case .....nutmeg. My family, who > left Antigua in 1741 to take on free lands in Jamaica, eventually grew > arrowroot and were apparently very successful at it, but by that time there > was already a movement towards uniform spelling. No doubt some of this > evolved from the consistent travel of mail and correspondence although I > have no cogent knowledge of a connection between one evolution and the > other. I regret that I cannot indulge the list and yourself in more of this > stuff but until my hand gets better it is impossible to type at length. > > I enjoy your postings and hope you will continue to grace us with your > ponderings > > ChrisCod > > C.M. Codrington("american version # 1952) > Editor: Carib GenWeb "Historic Antigua and Barbuda" web-site > Co-Administrator: Carribean-L@rootsweb.com > Member: Barbados Museum Historical Society, > Museum of Antigua and Barbuda Historical and Archaeological Society. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Richard Allicock [mailto:richwyn@idirect.com] > Sent: Tuesday, June 17, 2003 10:36 PM > To: CARIBBEAN-L@rootsweb.com > Subject: East Indian Indenture Immigration W.I. Names > > Some-one pointed out that Indian names could also be formed by adding two > names together, like Bhagat+Singh to get Bhagatsingh. This is quite true. I > did not want to deal with this until we had gotten further into the history > of East Indians in the British Colonies in the West Indies, as we were > talking about Anglicisation and Creolisation of the names. The above example > is more appropriate to observe outside of the process or situation of > Anglicisation in which we will find more of the fracture of previously > compounded names. > > I am also interested in this process not for academic purposes but also > practical ones for genealogical purposes. In the absence of so much records, > and also in some cases the presence of too many records, as in the case of > too many persons with the same names, I am interested in being aware of the > process of Anglicisation/Creolisation for the clues that names can give on > the whereabouts of persons and in a situation where dating them might be > ambiguous.. > > An indentured immigrant person could arrive with a name spelt one way on the > ships manifest, arrrive on a plantation and imediately or within a few years > have their name spelt slightly differently, depending upon who made the > initial record and who kept the records for the next five and later three > years. Some-one might even move to another plantation after one contract > expired and get their name again spelt differently, by Englishmen, Scotsmen, > Irish, and even Welsh and Cornish men, (all with their various county and > regional accents) and not to forget the East Indian "Drivers" "Headmen" > themselves. All of the foregoing would have a different ear, different > levels of familiarity to East Indian names, different levels of education, > different ways of spelling even in English. Then one can have one's children > start attending schools and churches and have the names spelt variously yet > again. And the orthographic and phonetic abilities of the recordists would > also change over ti! > me from one generation to another. > > Names can give clues in terms of Anglicisation and non-Anglicisation. > Anglicised names tell us that the person in question was in a situation of > Anglicisation and in a period of Anglicisation. The anglicising situations > are of course on the plantations and in the schools and churches. The > process of anglicisation would be more relevant to people who will later > move off the plantation and into the towns and villages of the British and > Creoles. On the plantations the sheer force of numbers and community > pressure would serve slow the process of Anglicisation/Creolisation beyond > initial name changes. Once the East Indians on the Plantations started to be > able to better "staff" their communities with arrivals of Pandits/Pundits > and Moulvis from India and later Pakistan or other colonies, the name > changes would revert in many instances to what was common "back-home". But > this would mostly affect new births and fore-names rather than surnames. And > we also get more Hindu and Muslim ! > names as fore-names for those religious groups, but a mixture or "Indian" > and English and purely English fore-names for the Christian East Indians. > > We also have to add the fact that many East Indians did not take opportunity > for educating their children the way that the Creoles and Chinese did. > Also, we should take into account that it was not until close to the turn of > the 1900 that the male - female ratio was equalised and stable families were > becoming the norm. This meant increasing pressure to school one's children > and prepare them for on or off plantation jobs. So even for the > on-plantation East Indians, the pressure for Anglicisation was growing, with > ultimately movement to the towns and villages, where they would likely be > taught by anglicised creole teachers. This pressure increased dramatically > after the cessation of Indentureship/Immigration in 1930, and with the > prospect of Independence after 1953. Between these two water-shed years the > East Indian Community would produce their own Anglicised teachers thus > furthering the process of Anglicisation, and the promotion and retention of > anglicised names. Later suc! > h teachers and students would even found their own schools. > > The legal requirement that birth, marriages and deaths be registered with > the Registrar-General would further serve to fix name changes in whatever > form it was registered, (anglicised and non-anglicised), and that again can > give clues to the degree of anglicisation of the parties concerned. > > The need to produce documents for legal and business purposes - land and > other property records, taxes etc., - for schooling one's children, for > travel etc. would again fix names. > > But then we also have to consider the recording of Censuses, and when the > recording of names would be recorded by some-one else, we are back to > phonetics, how the name appears to sound to some-one's ear. After general > schooling people (especially the younger rather than older) could at least > spell their own names, so the recording of names would get better after the > 1960's. > > > All of these factors can give clues as to who was writing the names and in > what period or even situation. > > English itself was not generally standardised until after 1876 with the > Education Act that made education compulsory for school age children. Before > that it was the English Translation of the Latin Bible that did a great deal > to standardise written English. Before that it was London English that was > the ideal of English speech, for business purposes, but the writing could be > idiosyncratic until after 1876, and based phonetically on regional accents > and level of education of the writer. > > By the time we get to the indenture and immigration of East Indians in the > 1840's, the British had been in India via the British East India Company > going on two and half centuries. From (1600-1773) the BEI Co.; from 1773 UK > parliamentary control via a Governor-General. > > By the 1840's the British Army had already standardised the way that Indian > names from all the different languages of the recruits should be spelt or > transliterated to be more precise. > > But before that we got: > > "A dictionary English and Hindostany : to which is annexed a copious and > useful alphabetical list of proper names of men, women, towns, cities, > rivers, provinces, countries &c. a great majority of which appear to be of > Persian, Arabic or Indian origin." Vol.2 > > by Henry Harris, Surgeon, Madras Army (1759-1822), Madras : printed for the > author, 1790, 345p. appx. of proper names, > > Vol. 1 (containing a grammar) never printed, titled: Guide to the > Orthography of Indian Proper Names with a list showing the true spelling of > all post towns and villages in India. > > Printed by William Wilson Hunter, Calcutta,187,pp.146. Office of the > Superintendent of Govt. > > > By the 1870's we get: > > > > "The duty of English-speaking Orientalists in regard to united action in > adhering generally to Sir William Jones's Principles of Transliteration, > especially in that case of Indian Languages : with a proposal for promoting > a Uniform International Method of Transliteration so far at least as may be > applicable to Proper Names." > > By Monier Monier-Williams, 1870, 21p. > > I do not know if it was published because there is a note at head of page: > "Rough proof, not yet ready for printing off". > > > And: > > "A Guide to the Orthography of Indian Proper Names with a list showing the > true spelling of all post towns and villages in India." > > By William Wilson Hunter, British Academy London. > > Calcutta, 1871, 146 p. Office of the Superintendent of Govt. Author. > > > And: > > "Indian Domestic Economy and Receipt Book, with Hindustanee romanized names > ... Eighth edition, revised. > > By Robert Flower Riddell > > Calcutta : Thacker, Spink & Co. 1877, 596 p. > > > By 1917 it seems that there was still a need to deal with Arabic and Persian > based names, and hence this is relevant to the way in which Muslim names may > have been spelt from c. 1870, or before, allowing for the time-lag between > practice and formalisation. > > So we get: > > > "The British academy transliteration of Arabic and Persian; report of the > committee appointed to draw up a practical scheme for the > transliteration into English of words and names belonging to the languages > of the Nearer East." > > By H. Milford, > > Oxford university press 1917? 17 p. Published for the British Academy, > London. > > > > Notes: From the Proceedings of the British academy, vol. VIII. > > Preface signed, C. J. L. stated that: The system "practically agrees with > that adopted more than fifty years ago by the government of India for > place-names in official use and for the names of soldiers in the Indian > army, with such minor modifications as experience from time to time showed > to be desirable." > > > The above references, I think would be useful for seeing how the names would > have been transliterated before and after the East Indian Indentured > Immigrants got to the British Colonies. > > I hope all the above makes a further contribution to the Topic. > > Richard > > > ==== CARIBBEAN Mailing List ==== > To unsubscribe from the list send the word "unsubscribe" (without the > quotes) as the only text in the body of an email message to > CARIBBEAN-L-request@rootsweb.com for the list mode or > CARIBBEAN-D-request@rootsweb.com if you are subscribed to the digest. > > --- > Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > Version: 6.0.489 / Virus Database: 288 - Release Date: 6/10/03 > > --- > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > Version: 6.0.489 / Virus Database: 288 - Release Date: 6/10/03 > > > > ==== CARIBBEAN Mailing List ==== > Before posting a query, check to see if the question has already been asked on the List. 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