Hi Jennifer, Thanks. I think your statement is quite correct. It must have been introduced by Sir Joseph Banks in 1782, but did not become one of the the dominant crops until after 1843. That means that people were growing it for almost 50 years before 1843. Richard ----- Original Message ----- From: "jennifer sanchez" <jenys@wow.net> To: <CARIBBEAN-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Thursday, May 29, 2003 7:47 PM Subject: Re: Nutmeg History Grenada > >Some-one wrote recently that Nutmeg cultivation was introduced to > >Grenada in 1843. The source below certainly supports that. > > > > > >In 1843, nutmeg is introduced to Grenada from the Dutch East Indies > >and soon takes over from sugar as the island's principal export. > > > >SOURCE: http://www.information.kuoni.co.uk/Common/CountryInfo/Info/GDGND2.html > > > > > >But then other sources say this: > >During the 18th century, Grenada's economy underwent an important > >transition. Like much of the rest of the West Indies it was > >originally settled to cultivate sugar which was grown on estates > >using slave labor. But natural disasters paved the way for the > >introduction of other crops. In 1782, Sir Joseph Banks, the > >botanical adviser to King George III, introduced nutmeg to Grenada. > >The island's soil was ideal for growing the spice and because > >Grenada was a closer source of spices for Europe than the Dutch East > >Indies the island assumed a new importance to European traders. > > > >The collapse of the sugar estates and the introduction of nutmeg and > >cocoa encouraged the development of smaller land holdings, and the > >island developed a land-owning yeoman farmer class. > > > >SOURCES:: > > > >http://www.traveldocs.com/gd/history.htm. > > > > > >www.wikipedia.org/wiki/History+of+Grenada > > > >www.worldrover.com/history/grenada_history.html > > > >globaledge.msu.edu/ibrd/ CountryHistory.asp?CountryID=126&RegionID=4 > > > >Can we reconcile the two versions of History? Thanks. > > > >Richard > > > >In 1782, when Sir Joseph banks was reputed to have introduced the > >nutmeg to Grenada, sugar was still "king", so it probably didn't > >become a popular crop until after the abolition of slavery in 1838. > >I think beet sugar became cheaper to produce in Europe quite a bit > >earlier than emancipation and abolition coupled with this new > >European crop spelled disaster for West Indian sugar economies so it > >is not surprising that nutmeg and other spices became popular crops > >in the 19th Century. > > > Jenny Sanchez > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >==== CARIBBEAN Mailing List ==== > >For information on individual islands, research aids, island > >bulletin boards or history please visit the CaribbeanGenWeb project > >at > >http://www.rootsweb.com/~caribgw/ > > > ==== CARIBBEAN Mailing List ==== > all messages posted to CARIBBEAN-L are archived at http://archiver.rootsweb.com/ > Before posting a query, see if the question has already been asked > >

Hi Leonora, You should not expect people to settle in one place and stay there generation after generation. On a very large territory that is quite possible, for people to settle in one place and stay within the general area. But such is the nature of economic opportunities and family relationships that people will move. In the case of a small Island like Grenada people will spread out sooner rather than later. The push comes from inheritance practices, mainly from Primogeniture or the passing down of property to the first born son or next in line. The other children had to get their own land if they wanted to own a plantation or a farm to make a living. There might be land becoming available nearby due to sale, but more likely not, and those desiring land would have to go where it was available. By 1843, there would have been a patch-work: of land still in use, land for sale; land abandoned by the owners and up for sale by the authorities. So people went where the land was, and this would go on generation after generation with the spread you have encountered in relation to your own family research. I hope this helps. Richard ----- Original Message ----- From: "Lenora Anderson" <ldanderson@sbcglobal.net> To: <CARIBBEAN-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Thursday, May 29, 2003 4:51 PM Subject: Re: Nutmeg History Grenada > Thank you Richard.. I visited all these site Interestingly enough IF > Nutmeg started in 1843.. that is the exact year that the grandparents > started plantations.. One thing that interest me after seeing all these > maps... is how our grandparents were at one time all over Grenada in > different areas. You assume that they arrive there and mostly live in the > general area. I find mine from St. John's to St David's.. mention in LDS > paper Carriacou, and Hillsbourough , and Gouyave,on several birth > certificates of children.. Was this common?? Or did I have a larger family > than I now know??? Very interesting. Lenora > From: "Richard Allicock" <richwyn@idirect.com> > To: <CARIBBEAN-L@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Thursday, May 29, 2003 7:19 PM > Subject: Nutmeg History Grenada > > > > Some-one wrote recently that Nutmeg cultivation was introduced to Grenada > in 1843. The source below certainly supports that. > > > > > > In 1843, nutmeg is introduced to Grenada from the Dutch East Indies and > soon takes over from sugar as the island's principal export. > > > > SOURCE: > http://www.information.kuoni.co.uk/Common/CountryInfo/Info/GDGND2.html > > > > > > But then other sources say this: > > During the 18th century, Grenada's economy underwent an important > transition. Like much of the rest of the West Indies it was originally > settled to cultivate sugar which was grown on estates using slave labor. But > natural disasters paved the way for the introduction of other crops. In > 1782, Sir Joseph Banks, the botanical adviser to King George III, introduced > nutmeg to Grenada. The island's soil was ideal for growing the spice and > because Grenada was a closer source of spices for Europe than the Dutch East > Indies the island assumed a new importance to European traders. > > > > The collapse of the sugar estates and the introduction of nutmeg and cocoa > encouraged the development of smaller land holdings, and the island > developed a land-owning yeoman farmer class. > > > > SOURCES:: > > > > http://www.traveldocs.com/gd/history.htm. > > > > > > www.wikipedia.org/wiki/History+of+Grenada > > > > www.worldrover.com/history/grenada_history.html > > > > globaledge.msu.edu/ibrd/ CountryHistory.asp?CountryID=126&RegionID=4 > > > > Can we reconcile the two versions of History? Thanks. > > > > Richard > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ==== CARIBBEAN Mailing List ==== > > For information on individual islands, research aids, island bulletin > boards or history please visit the CaribbeanGenWeb project at > > http://www.rootsweb.com/~caribgw/ > > > ==== CARIBBEAN Mailing List ==== > For information on individual islands, research aids, island bulletin boards or history please visit the CaribbeanGenWeb project at > http://www.rootsweb.com/~caribgw/ > >

> Cheryl, I don't think you will find that in Edgar Adams shop as it has mainly been via people copying it for one another that it survives. But I will be seeing Edgar in a couple of weeks and will inquire. Lenora, it takes sugar to make rum - thus, rum was a by-product on a sugar plantation (at least until sugar fell). Richard, I don't think Banks ever visited Grenada and I can say for sure he did not introduce nutmegs - for one, he was a collector of plants for KEW and then encouraged via prizes for others to plant specific species on the islands. (I haven't run across a reference of him visiting Grenada at all - if anyone else knows otherwise, please speak up). The case of The Bounty and Captain Bligh was one such endeavour to capture a prize by successfully introducing breadfruit to St. Vincent and Jamaica. Cocoa and coffee plantations were already well established by the French prior to the British takeover. This info below is pure hogwash - and is a classic case of being beware of info off the internet.... or anywhere else for that matter. (I'm glad you brought it up). A British planter named Gurney (can't come up with his first name at mo, but can if anyone really needs it) is given credit for introducing nutmeg onto the island in 1843 although Louis La Grenade, a French mulatto planter in the late 1700's is actually the first successful planter on the island to grow the spice. He has a fabulous story behind him and his family today is still making a nutmeg liquer that is a secret family recipe given to Louis back in the 1700's by a missionary. (The stuff is fabulous - we keep a bottle in the house for special occasions). Why does Gurney get credit and not La Grenade? Simple - until recent, Grenada was British, and everything French, Catholic and "coloured" which were all aspects of La Grenade's make-up did not fit the colonial hierarchy at the time despite that he pledged allegiance to the King and gave up his Catholic faith. Most likely present day Grenada will probably begin giving La Grenade credit as they have recently honoured Fedon as a national hero instead of the villian he was portrayed for for two years. best wishes all, Cindy > That is a very good question..i dont' know how many copies, if any, of > that > book are still around. Maybe one of the listers can answer that one. > Or you > may try Adams Book Store in St Vincent. Edgar Adams or his staff may > have > some insight into that. The email address is: adamsbooks@caribsurf.com, > phone: 784-457-2278, fax: 784-485-6945. If you get some positive > feedback on > this, please share the info with the list, since I know that several > people > were interested in the same publication. > Cheryl > > > From: "Lenora Anderson" <ldanderson@sbcglobal.net> > > Thanks,, I "assumed it might be rum as they had that on the other > plantations.. > > > Some-one wrote recently that Nutmeg cultivation was introduced to > Grenada in 1843. The source below certainly supports that. > > But then other sources say this: > During the 18th century, Grenada's economy underwent an important > transition. Like much of the rest of the West Indies it was originally > settled to cultivate sugar which was grown on estates using slave > labor. But natural disasters paved the way for the introduction of > other crops. In 1782, Sir Joseph Banks, the botanical adviser to King > George III, introduced nutmeg to Grenada. The island's soil was ideal > for growing the spice and because Grenada was a closer source of > spices for Europe than the Dutch East Indies the island assumed a new > importance to European traders. > > The collapse of the sugar estates and the introduction of nutmeg and > cocoa encouraged the development of smaller land holdings, and the > island developed a land-owning yeoman farmer class. > > > > Richard > >>

One book that might be of help is "The Early Settlers of the Bahamas & Colonists of North America" by A. Talbot BETHELL. Originally published 1937, republished 1992 by the Genealogical Publishing Co., Baltimore Maryland. Pages 99 to 109 are "The Account of the Loyalists who fled from East Florida shortly after the American Revolution and came to the Bahamas". Pps 101 to 109 is the list of their names (not in alphabetical order). Ernest M. Wiltshire -----Original Message----- From: CJ [mailto:CaribbeanLegacy@aol.com] Subject: American Loyalists in the Caribbean Does anyone have resources or data concerning American Loyalists coming to the Caribbean? I am specifically looking for ship names with rosters of the individuals on the ship and where they embarked and dis-embarked. I'd appreciate any guidance. CJ

Cheryl, Thank you, emailing the bookstore also and will post results when I hear back from them. Regarding ancestors visiting America, can't say for sure, but will try Ellis Island site. Your Daniel Hazell birthdate seems the same, just curious, do you know if he ever was in Guyana say around 1900 onward? Bye for now, cheers. Sonja

Thank you, will be looking at the Ellis Island site to see what might be there for me. In a message dated 5/28/2003 6:23:22 PM Central Daylight Time, timuna@starpower.net writes: > Daniel Hazel (one 'l') of Bequia is the name of the father Claude > Hazel, who arrived at Ellis Island on the S.S. Saga from Barbados, > April 30, 1917. Frances Hazel, Cordelia Davis, and Joseph Ollivierre, > also of Bequia also arrived on the same ship, as did Owen Wallace. > Claude Hazel was 23 and a seaman. His US destination was the > residence of his brother Osman (or Orman) Hazel in Perth Amboy, NJ > >

Monie- Martinique's 1664 census lists a Jean FONTENELE (FONTENEL), 58y, in the Company of Mons. Dananbuc and in the house of Marin Moreaux (Moreau). Regards, Dick in Princeton, NJ

Census records for St. Thomas are available 1841 and after through LDS Family History Centers. The best source for birth, death, marriage records for St. Thomas for the period would be from the specific church to which he belonged, many of these records also being available through LDS. I am interested if you have any information on Severine Haddock from Curacao, but living on St. Thomas in the mid 1840's. Dante On Monday, May 26, 2003, at 12:00 PM, Winniey wrote: > Hi All, > I am still searching for information on John James Haddock who > was a > burger on St. Thomas in the 1830s. What was a burger? Where can I > write to > get birth, death, marriage and census records for St. Eustatius and > St. Thomas? > Can this info be found anywhere online? I would appreciate any help I > can > get. Thanks.

>Some-one wrote recently that Nutmeg cultivation was introduced to >Grenada in 1843. The source below certainly supports that. > > >In 1843, nutmeg is introduced to Grenada from the Dutch East Indies >and soon takes over from sugar as the island's principal export. > >SOURCE: http://www.information.kuoni.co.uk/Common/CountryInfo/Info/GDGND2.html > > >But then other sources say this: >During the 18th century, Grenada's economy underwent an important >transition. Like much of the rest of the West Indies it was >originally settled to cultivate sugar which was grown on estates >using slave labor. But natural disasters paved the way for the >introduction of other crops. In 1782, Sir Joseph Banks, the >botanical adviser to King George III, introduced nutmeg to Grenada. >The island's soil was ideal for growing the spice and because >Grenada was a closer source of spices for Europe than the Dutch East >Indies the island assumed a new importance to European traders. > >The collapse of the sugar estates and the introduction of nutmeg and >cocoa encouraged the development of smaller land holdings, and the >island developed a land-owning yeoman farmer class. > >SOURCES:: > >http://www.traveldocs.com/gd/history.htm. > > >www.wikipedia.org/wiki/History+of+Grenada > >www.worldrover.com/history/grenada_history.html > >globaledge.msu.edu/ibrd/ CountryHistory.asp?CountryID=126&RegionID=4 > >Can we reconcile the two versions of History? Thanks. > >Richard > >In 1782, when Sir Joseph banks was reputed to have introduced the >nutmeg to Grenada, sugar was still "king", so it probably didn't >become a popular crop until after the abolition of slavery in 1838. >I think beet sugar became cheaper to produce in Europe quite a bit >earlier than emancipation and abolition coupled with this new >European crop spelled disaster for West Indian sugar economies so it >is not surprising that nutmeg and other spices became popular crops >in the 19th Century. Jenny Sanchez > > > > > > > > > > > >==== CARIBBEAN Mailing List ==== >For information on individual islands, research aids, island >bulletin boards or history please visit the CaribbeanGenWeb project >at >http://www.rootsweb.com/~caribgw/

Just on the off chance somene else doing any research in this area has come across the notation "buried in the Old Castle vault" on a burial record for St Joseph or perhaps St John. It is noted in the St Joseph Parish record of the burial of my GGgrandfather c.1823. Speculation leads to some of the older families having properties along the coast now overgrown - Beal, Quintyne, Thorne - but in truth, where Old Castle vault is/was is a mystery. There were many smaller holdings along this line and it could be anywhere. Any input appreciated. Lisa

I happen to be following a red herring at the moment which might help. There are lots of sources you can consult, but you were very specific - looking for ships lists. Guy Grannum's guide to the PRO "Tracing Your West Indian Ancestors" lists the PRO location for the land grants given to Loyalists settled in the Bahamas. I realize these are not ship lists, but at least you would get some names and dates. The Loyalists scattered - many to Jamaica, some to the Bahamas via East Florida, also to St. Kitts, St. Lucia, Dominica etc. The events of the evacuations were chaotic and people went where they could get passage. A good place to start would be in the Loyalist Claims for reparation of losses - these documents give details which might include ships used and dates of arrival at their destination. Tian

Hi CJ, There is also "Bahamian Loyalists and their Slaves" by Gail Saunders. Extent: 96pp Format: 215 x 137mm B & w photographs, maps Price: £5.75 ISBN 0 333 358317 The problem for researchers of the Loyalists is that many migrated from the US during the American War of Independence 1776-1783. Many later ended up in the West Indies. Many were also evacuated to Canada after the War. The place where you might get considerable amount of information is in the evacuation of New York towards the end of the War, when close to half a million people were evacuated in a variety of ships both Naval and private. You may already be aware that the situation and hence the record keeping was rather chaotic. But University and City Libraries in New York may have considerable information. The other place to look is in the records of Claims submitted by the Loyalists for compensation for loss of property as a result of the conflict. These are in the CO documents of the PRO. They are also accessible on LDS micro-film. I hope the above helps. Richard ----- Original Message ----- From: "CJ" <CaribbeanLegacy@aol.com> To: <CARIBBEAN-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Thursday, May 29, 2003 10:53 AM Subject: American Loyalists in the Caribbean > Does anyone have resources or data concerning American Loyalists coming to the Caribbean? I am specifically looking for ship names with rosters of the individuals on the ship and where they embarked and dis-embarked. I'd appreciate any guidance. > > CJ > > > > ==== CARIBBEAN Mailing List ==== > all messages posted to CARIBBEAN-L are archived at http://archiver.rootsweb.com/ > Before posting a query, see if the question has already been asked > >

Some-one wrote recently that Nutmeg cultivation was introduced to Grenada in 1843. The source below certainly supports that. In 1843, nutmeg is introduced to Grenada from the Dutch East Indies and soon takes over from sugar as the island's principal export. SOURCE: http://www.information.kuoni.co.uk/Common/CountryInfo/Info/GDGND2.html But then other sources say this: During the 18th century, Grenada's economy underwent an important transition. Like much of the rest of the West Indies it was originally settled to cultivate sugar which was grown on estates using slave labor. But natural disasters paved the way for the introduction of other crops. In 1782, Sir Joseph Banks, the botanical adviser to King George III, introduced nutmeg to Grenada. The island's soil was ideal for growing the spice and because Grenada was a closer source of spices for Europe than the Dutch East Indies the island assumed a new importance to European traders. The collapse of the sugar estates and the introduction of nutmeg and cocoa encouraged the development of smaller land holdings, and the island developed a land-owning yeoman farmer class. SOURCES:: http://www.traveldocs.com/gd/history.htm. www.wikipedia.org/wiki/History+of+Grenada www.worldrover.com/history/grenada_history.html globaledge.msu.edu/ibrd/ CountryHistory.asp?CountryID=126&RegionID=4 Can we reconcile the two versions of History? Thanks. Richard

Hi Philippe, Apologies for not having replied earlier to you very informative e-mail. I log on less than once a week and so I am often late in my replies. I have over 150 mails still unread... The information you gave looks great, but I am unable to pursue it at the moment, as I am very busy. I hope to start to do this research next month. I find it very difficult to know that I have so much to do and so little time to do it in. I am sure you must find the same. I look forward to following your advice and hope that I am successful. Many thanks again! Penny

Hi Philipe

Thank you Richard.. I visited all these site Interestingly enough IF Nutmeg started in 1843.. that is the exact year that the grandparents started plantations.. One thing that interest me after seeing all these maps... is how our grandparents were at one time all over Grenada in different areas. You assume that they arrive there and mostly live in the general area. I find mine from St. John's to St David's.. mention in LDS paper Carriacou, and Hillsbourough , and Gouyave,on several birth certificates of children.. Was this common?? Or did I have a larger family than I now know??? Very interesting. Lenora From: "Richard Allicock" <richwyn@idirect.com> To: <CARIBBEAN-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Thursday, May 29, 2003 7:19 PM Subject: Nutmeg History Grenada > Some-one wrote recently that Nutmeg cultivation was introduced to Grenada in 1843. The source below certainly supports that. > > > In 1843, nutmeg is introduced to Grenada from the Dutch East Indies and soon takes over from sugar as the island's principal export. > > SOURCE: http://www.information.kuoni.co.uk/Common/CountryInfo/Info/GDGND2.html > > > But then other sources say this: > During the 18th century, Grenada's economy underwent an important transition. Like much of the rest of the West Indies it was originally settled to cultivate sugar which was grown on estates using slave labor. But natural disasters paved the way for the introduction of other crops. In 1782, Sir Joseph Banks, the botanical adviser to King George III, introduced nutmeg to Grenada. The island's soil was ideal for growing the spice and because Grenada was a closer source of spices for Europe than the Dutch East Indies the island assumed a new importance to European traders. > > The collapse of the sugar estates and the introduction of nutmeg and cocoa encouraged the development of smaller land holdings, and the island developed a land-owning yeoman farmer class. > > SOURCES:: > > http://www.traveldocs.com/gd/history.htm. > > > www.wikipedia.org/wiki/History+of+Grenada > > www.worldrover.com/history/grenada_history.html > > globaledge.msu.edu/ibrd/ CountryHistory.asp?CountryID=126&RegionID=4 > > Can we reconcile the two versions of History? Thanks. > > Richard > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ==== CARIBBEAN Mailing List ==== > For information on individual islands, research aids, island bulletin boards or history please visit the CaribbeanGenWeb project at > http://www.rootsweb.com/~caribgw/

There is a book called "Homeward Bound," now out of print, which has lists of the Loyalists settled in the Bahamas, some of whom ended up on St. Vincent. I don't believe there are ship names. I do have a copy of the book. What names are you looking for?

OOPS! I forgot to say who I'm looking for. I have some information and am looking for more on the Saunders line in and around Jamaica and the Phillippo line in the samw area. Jim "Jim Saunders" <Jim-Saunders@shaw.ca> wrote in message news:IupBa.90221$ro6.2539385@news2.calgary.shaw.ca... > I have been plahing with genealogy for a couple of years and frustration > drove me to take an extension course in Family Tree Maker and the basics of > information search. I have ancestors and relatives in Jamaica and I finally > found this newsgroup and you all have given me three things. > 1) A viable source of information about the West Indies. > 2) A real education in excavating and sharing information. > 3) A thirst for more information into the hows, whys and whens of the whole > area. > > Now my question. Is there a cure for insatiable curiosity? I visited a few > of the islands in the West Indies when I was 20 and had little interest in > the past (Navy). How I would love to go back there now. > > Thanks to you all. I will share whatever information I find, but I feel > quite ignorant still. > > Jim > >

I have been plahing with genealogy for a couple of years and frustration drove me to take an extension course in Family Tree Maker and the basics of information search. I have ancestors and relatives in Jamaica and I finally found this newsgroup and you all have given me three things. 1) A viable source of information about the West Indies. 2) A real education in excavating and sharing information. 3) A thirst for more information into the hows, whys and whens of the whole area. Now my question. Is there a cure for insatiable curiosity? I visited a few of the islands in the West Indies when I was 20 and had little interest in the past (Navy). How I would love to go back there now. Thanks to you all. I will share whatever information I find, but I feel quite ignorant still. Jim

Does anyone have resources or data concerning American Loyalists coming to the Caribbean? I am specifically looking for ship names with rosters of the individuals on the ship and where they embarked and dis-embarked. I'd appreciate any guidance. CJ