where would I find information of west indians that fought in the Korean war? monie

Salut Aline. J'habite en la Rue. Thomas. La partie de ma recherche de généalogie est la famille de ZINGUE de Rue. Barts. Je me demande s'il y avait n'importe quel Zingue dans Guadeloupe? Ferait vous faites un me cherche s'il vous plaît. Beaucoup apprécié, Monifa (la Rue. Thomas, les Etats-Unis les Iles Vierges) "aline" <s.charles@ool.fr> wrote in message news:25840f05.0305240353.6129dd3f@posting.google.com... > Bonjour richard > Non, je n'ai pas de question(merci), je propose mon aide tout > simplement, j'aime la généalogie et rendre service. > merci > Aline charles bénévole FGW et fil d'Arine 971. > richwyn@idirect.com ("Richard Allicock") wrote in message news:<00fb01c3218e$f5d119a0$16049ad8@oemcomputer>... > > Cher Aline, > > > > Avez-vous une question? > > > > Richard > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: "aline" <s.charles@ool.fr> > > To: <CARIBBEAN-L@rootsweb.com> > > Sent: Friday, May 23, 2003 1:22 PM > > Subject: je peux faire des recheches Guadeloupe > > > > > > > J'habite en guadeloupe et je peux faire quelque recherche mais je ne > > > parle pas anglais,ni ecris. > > > Amicalement aline charles Guadeloupe > > > > > > > > > ==== CARIBBEAN Mailing List ==== > > > ROOTSWEB MAILING LIST HELP PAGES > > > What is a Mailing List? > > > http://helpdesk.rootsweb.com/help/mail1.html > > > > > >

Let's get someone on that! It's hard enough to find the information and even more annoying to think you've found a lead and encounter a dead link/dead info. Monie ps: If I had the expertise/time I'd volunteer. Alas, I have neither. ""Diane I."" <dti@nyc.rr.com> wrote in message news:3EDA7B90.8000405@nyc.rr.com... > Will the page at http://www.rootsweb.com/~usvi/ ever be updated and have > all its broken links fixed? It's been like this for a few years now - > looks like the last update was in Feb. of 2000. Every now and again, I > check to see if there might be anything there I could use, but am always > disheartened to still find all those broken links and nothing new added. > Is there no one to maintain it? Three links to the island message > boards are pointing to ancient urls, and out of 18 links on the lower > right side, half are dead. It's a shame, because that page could be an > excellent resource. New researchers will become frustrated quickly. > > ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ > Diane I. > life is good > dti "at" nyc.rr.com > ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ >

Will the page at http://www.rootsweb.com/~usvi/ ever be updated and have all its broken links fixed? It's been like this for a few years now - looks like the last update was in Feb. of 2000. Every now and again, I check to see if there might be anything there I could use, but am always disheartened to still find all those broken links and nothing new added. Is there no one to maintain it? Three links to the island message boards are pointing to ancient urls, and out of 18 links on the lower right side, half are dead. It's a shame, because that page could be an excellent resource. New researchers will become frustrated quickly. ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ Diane I. life is good dti "at" nyc.rr.com ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

Giles Milton has written a fascinating history of the nutmeg from an English viewpoint -- Nathaniel's Nutmeg, How One Man's Courage Changed the Course of History. Hodder & Stoughton, 1999. ISBN 0 340 69676 1. Cheers, Russ -------------------------------------- Persevere Russell G. Campbell Burlington, ON, Canada My Home page: www.it4biz.com/omnibus My Magazine: http://www.it4biz.com/omnibus/PortOfCall My Blog: http://www.it4biz.com/omnibus/rantrave My Genealogy: http://www.it4biz.com/omnibus/genealogy -----Original Message----- From: David Watson [mailto:david.watson@canada.com] Sent: Saturday, May 31, 2003 7:04 PM To: CARIBBEAN-L@rootsweb.com I hope this gets through to the newsgroup. My last message on place names seem to have disappeared into the ether. I've been following the discussion on nutmegs with some interest and was glad to see Edward dealing with the Bank-Wallen issue. He sent me transcripts of these letters some time ago, I dare say years, and they were most interesting. The received wisdom you read on travel sites and in recent histories of Grenada seems to be based on a paper written by the late Dr Groome in 1967. Dr Groome was a zoologist who spent his working life in Grenada. He may the most eminent Grenadian natural historian of the 20th century - not saying much, you may say. Well, perhaps not, but he had many contacts in the UK, at Kew, and throughout the West Indies to home he sent sample and with whom he communicated regularly. I expect they enjoyed the odd holiday at his home on the south east west corner of the island. He was finally imposed upon to write a book, though I expect it was hell for those who wanted it written - I think for the visit to Grenada for UK royals. It's called "The Natural History of Grenada" and I have it beside me as I write. Dr Groome was an academic, a "character" and a colleague of mine when I taught at the GBSS. He has a beach named after him; if your from Grenada you've probably heard of him. To get back to his paper, it's called "The nutmeg story" and is re-published in his book, which was published in 1970 (out of print now, I'm afraid.) I just want to point out some Groome "facts." He says the French tried to crack the Dutch nutmeg monopoly in 1769. An expedition to the Moluccas resulted in 400 nutmeg trees, 10,000 nutmegs, either growing or ready to grow, 70 clove trees and a chest of cloves which were planted in Mauritius in 1770, in a variety of soils. Everything failed. According to Dr Groome, however, the British East India Company sent someone to the Moluccas to collect nutmeg for planting in Penning Island in 1796, where they flourished for many years. He says that other planting were attempted, with various degrees of success in Calcutta, Madras, Brazil and several West Indian islands. Dr Groome makes many interesting points in his paper, which I won't quote. He identifies the individuals and estates associated with Grenada nutmeg from 1843. But he also points out that nutmegs had been established in many West Indian islands by 1824. Apparently one of the first trees planted in the Trinidad botanical gardens was a nutmeg brought from St Vincent. He does say, however, that at this point, nutmegs were of no commercial significance. George Brizan, in his history of the island, notes that commercial nutmeg production dates from 1860 - 1878 production was 470 cwts, by 1929 it had reached 22,666 cwts and accounted for 22% of world exports. I won't go into the esoteric details of estate ownership, sugar's decline and the rise and importance of the nutmeg. I just would like to defend Dr Groome and to say that I know that all his opinions were well researched and without bias, at least as much as any of ours are. Sorry if this is off topic. Nutmegs have been a bone of contention for centuries. By the way, I never heard of Banks visiting Grenada and it was only through Cindy's post that I heard of any connection between la Grenade and nutmegs. We learn a lot from this newsgroup. I do know the liqueur, however. I haven't had it since the days when the family used the recycled green Mateus Rose wine bottles - in those days it was what we now call "home based." As I remember, it tasted something like Cointreau or Grand Marnier. I don't remember a nutmeg taste. I have personally never understood the attraction to nutmeg flavour. David ______________________________

Dear Anton - I am in touch with Richmond Dougall - Are you able to expand on the ancestry and family of Jonas Hart - father of Jonas and Philip Hart who married the sisters, Miriam and Zipporah Cohen. Jonas was also the father of Daniel Hart who married Jemima Delgado. Thank you - Regards - Richard.

Will you please list some addresses for these sources? Thank you. MVG

> Hi Listbuds, I still hope I didn't offend you, Richard. I pondered through my books last night to find something worthy on the subject to add here today. First of all, I didn't know Dr. Groome had departed us (maybe he has a son living down near Point Salines?) and I didn't think of him last night when I was rummaging through my office - those Grenadian historians that came to mind - and I respect greatly - were George Brizan, Raymund Devas, Alister Hughes and Barbara Steele - all of which, i would give my eye tooth to be in the company of (with the exception of Devas, who is long gone). So with that in mind, I would like to quote Mr. Hughes on the subject of Grenada nutmegs: (the first part is similar tale of the Dutch and Moluccan Islands which Groome also stated - and you can find in the delightful book, Nathaniel's Nutmeg - (oh, it was a Frenchman, Peter Poivre, who raided the Dutch nutmeg plantations and stole 10,000 seeds. He planted them not to any success in French Guiana). "Some 25 years later, the British had more success. Following the French Revolution of 1789 and the rise of Napoleon Bonaparte, Britain was drawn into hostilities with France and her ally Holland. in the war which resulted, Britain ousted the Dutch from the Molluccas in 1796 and until 1802, when the islands were given back to the Dutch under the Treaty of Amiens, had full control of all the nutmeg plantations. Seizing this golden opportunity, the British East India Company collected large quantities of nutmeg plants, some of which were set out in the British colonies of Penang off the Malay peninsula. These cultivations did very well and by 1812, nutmeg was a major crop of Penang. Other plantings were attempted with varying success in Calcutta, Madras, Brazil, and several West Indian islands. This experiment did not extend to Grenada and, at this time, the nutmeg did not achieve any economic importance in the Caribbean. Grenada's connection with the nutmeg was created by a curious link between sugar producers of the British West Indies and their counterparts in British colonies in the Far East. The sugar industry was then much more important to the West Indies than it is today and, in these islands, the system of sugar extraction had been developed to a fine art. The method used in the Far East was not as efficient and, to upgrade that system, arrangemennts were made for a transfer of West Indian technology. Competent sugar plantation overseers, including some from Grenada, were identified for secondment to British Far East sugar plantations and, in 1840, they were sent out to Penang to do a stint as managers, introducing their system of sugar extraction. These agriculturists, returning home, brought nutmeg seeds with them as a curiosity, and it is believed the first nutmeg tree in Grenada grew from a seed that was brought from the Banda Islands by Frank Gurney and planted in 1843 at Belvidere Estate. .... But fate was to change when in 1851, disaster struck the nutmeg plantations of the Far East. A nocturnal worm attacked the trees and the top branches withered and all the leaves fell off. The trunks then disintegrated in a remarkably short time and the trees fell. This was catastrophic for the plantations of Singapore which were reduced from 56,000 trees to a few hundred. ..... The news of these Far East disasters reached Grenadian farmers and they saw in them an opportunity to diversify the agricultural base of the island's economy. ...after 1860, the nutmeg began to be planted in Grenada as an economic crop. " Captain Louis De La Grenade had given passage to a missionary from the Far East and in return the man gave Louis some seeds and a recipe for a liqueur. He took them home to Mardi Gras Estate in Grenada, planted them, and then all hell broke out with the insurrection of 1795-6. La Grenade was known to be bitter enemies with Julien Fedon, which no doubt had to do with La Grenade changing sides; allegiance and religion. (Which many of the French loyalists left the island for Trinidad - Cheryl, this may be a place to look for Girauds). The La Grenade family kept the estate and their "secret' recipe. In 1991 Cecile La Grenade began producing, in earnest, the liqueur in a factory on the Mardi Gras Estate (near the grave of Louis De La Grenade). Since 1970, her mother, Sybil, had begun the production of nutmeg syrup, jelly and jam. (Living in maple syrup country, I can tell you, I "use" to travel with maple syrup in tow, but now savour the chance breakfast with nutmeg syrup). Introducing nutmeg to Grenada..... I don't think French settlers had the ambitions of the Brits, which was to make big bucks and get home - having nutmeg trees on his estate, yes, I think he did. La Grenade had cocoa trees and nutmegs and cocoa live together well (cocoa likes the shade of the tall bushy nutmeg and grow well under its canopy). Until the Brits arrived and earnestly got started in sugar cultivation, Grenada was coffee, cocoa and indigo plantations. In 1763 82% of all coffee exported to England from the British West Indies was from Grenada. By 1778, Grenada still produced 60% of all exported from BWI. Also the largest producer and exporter of cocoa in the 1760's and 1770's in BWI. (Brizan) So that's my two cents ... toss it in the wind or put it in your pocket. Best regards to all, Cindy

> Just a matter of interest I am interestead in DOUGALL of Jamaica and ii do reaserch there. But back to Nutmeg one of my business interests is in a a Restaurant in Malta called NUTMEG. go to www.astoriacatering.com regards to you all From the Beautifull Island of Malta in europe Anton B.Dougall

Hear, hear Cindy! Well said. I'm a Fedon fan myself and think someone should make a documentary on him. It would be very very interesting and enlightening. Yes, if you get any info from Adams about that book please let me know. I'd like to get a copy for myself. I'm starting quite the library here! Met another Ollivierre, Gregg and Kydd at a church function tonight and will be adding them to my Bequia family tree. If you have any names Cindy, please let me know. I have well over 1000 names now. Cheryl _________________________________________________________________ STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail

Cindy: Having become interested in the 'nutmeg story' from the recent postings to the list. Why did LeGrenade have the nutmeg? What role did he play in the growing of nutmeg, and perhaps introducing nutmeg to Grenada? CJ cindy kilgore wrote: > > > Richard, > Please don't be offended, but I get the impression you haven't done > your homework on Grenada history where it comes to the nutmeg. La > Grenade and Gurney are given the credit here and can be found in the > Records Office in St. George's. La Grenade's family is still living on > his estate and continue with the family business involving nutmegs - > these are not "may also be true" statements. I feel your statements may > be "true" on a West Indies in general look at moving plants and spices, > but not to Grenada itself. Are you actually aware of the British-French > scene on this island in the late 1700's - not an in-general question > about the islands, but this particular one? Do you know why La Grenade > had the nutmegs in the first place? Please know I am not saying this in > a "biting" way, but am asking your knowledge of this particular > island's history with nutmegs. I don't think "we" are producing a > correct statement on the history of nutmegs in Grenada at all - I think > the nation of Grenada has that down pretty clear. > best regards, > Cindy > > > Hi Cindy, > > > > We should not take it literally that Sir Joseph Banks himself, > > physically went to Grenada and planted Nutmegs, or any other crop for > > that matter, or in any other of the British territories, while he was > > the botanical adviser to King George III. He may have advised it, to > > be grown by British colonists, because Kew Gardens had a long history > > of collecting plants from around the world and studying them. Since > > spices were so valuable, and the Dutch East Indies had a monopoly of > > it, the English had an incentive to study it and to see where it might > > be grown to the profit of the Crown and British Capitalists. Kew may > > also have looked at the chemistry of the Nutmeg in terms of extracts. > > > > So what you say here is quite true that : "I don't think Banks ever > > visited Grenada and I can say for sure he did > > not introduce nutmegs - for one, he was a collector of plants for KEW > > and then encouraged via prizes for others to plant specific species on > > the islands." > > > > And what you say here may also be true. That: > > > > "Louis La Grenade, a French mulatto planter in the late 1700's is > > actually the first successful planter on the > > island to grow the spice." If we can establish when La Granade > > actually began growing, the spice and if it was before 1782, then he > > has the credit, but for French growers, that is, as far as the British > > were concerned. > > > > When the British wrote the history of Nutmeg in the Island they would > > give credit to a Britisher, especially if his production ended up in > > the British Market. So what you say here can also be true that: > > > > "A British planter named Gurney .... is given credit for introducing > > nutmeg onto the island in 1843" although "Louis La Granade was > > cultivating it in the 1700's." And you do say "late 1700's" which puts > > it close to 1782 and after. But the question still remains to clinch > > the case, when in the 1700's? And if before 1782, the answer will > > still be that he was first among the French. > > > > Even giving credit to Gurney in 1843 might not be correct. Gurney may > > have only been the first large producer/exporter of the Spice to the > > British Market. I am sure there may have been many smaller > > experimental producers among the British, who did all the hard work of > > learning how to cultivate trees, tend them against pests, and > > parasites be they insect or fungi, and process the crop and preparing > > it for market etc., on a small limited scale. And the same thing may > > also be said for smaller French European or Mulatto planters before La > > Grenade. And you do say that he was "actually the first successful > > planter to grow the crop." But he may have been just the first > > succesful planter among the French. > > > > Even if the British learnt how to grow the crop from the French, they > > would give the credit to Gurney for being the first successful > > Britisher to produce large marketable crops for the British Market, > > just as credit may have been given to La Grenade by the French for > > being the first successful French planter for the French Market. > > > > But it still does not mean that it may not have been Sir Joseph Banks > > advice that led the British to experiment for themselves with growing > > the crop in the first place. Banks recommendation may have been > > crucial for the British. Why? With his advice, venture capitalists > > would come forward and be willing to invest in schemes to get the crop > > going. It was valuable enough to risk investing in it. Don't forget > > that for every successful plantation be it sugar or any other, there > > were a myriad of creditors, giving loans and mortgages to pay the > > costs of the plantation, to buy and prepare the land, provide food for > > the slaves, wages for the workers after slavery, costs of outfitting > > or chartering ships, insuring the ships and crops etc., long before > > the crop is even planted or harvested or shipped. With the failure of > > sugar cultivation and the advent of nutmeg cultivation as a > > possibility, the capitalists (adventurers as they were called in the > > 1600's) who may have lost money on s! > > ugar in the 1840's after slavery was abolished, now had a new crop to > > recoup their losses. > > > > At least we are getting closer to a correct statement of the History > > of Nutmeg in Grenada.

I hope this gets through to the newsgroup. My last message on place names seem to have disappeared into the ether. I've been following the discussion on nutmegs with some interest and was glad to see Edward dealing with the Bank-Wallen issue. He sent me transcripts of these letters some time ago, I dare say years, and they were most interesting. The received wisdom you read on travel sites and in recent histories of Grenada seems to be based on a paper written by the late Dr Groome in 1967. Dr Groome was a zoologist who spent his working life in Grenada. He may the most eminent Grenadian natural historian of the 20th century - not saying much, you may say. Well, perhaps not, but he had many contacts in the UK, at Kew, and throughout the West Indies to home he sent sample and with whom he communicated regularly. I expect they enjoyed the odd holiday at his home on the south east west corner of the island. He was finally imposed upon to write a book, though I expect it was hell for those who wanted it written - I think for the visit to Grenada for UK royals. It's called "The Natural History of Grenada" and I have it beside me as I write. Dr Groome was an academic, a "character" and a colleague of mine when I taught at the GBSS. He has a beach named after him; if your from Grenada you've probably heard of him. To get back to his paper, it's called "The nutmeg story" and is re-published in his book, which was published in 1970 (out of print now, I'm afraid.) I just want to point out some Groome "facts." He says the French tried to crack the Dutch nutmeg monopoly in 1769. An expedition to the Moluccas resulted in 400 nutmeg trees, 10,000 nutmegs, either growing or ready to grow, 70 clove trees and a chest of cloves which were planted in Mauritius in 1770, in a variety of soils. Everything failed. According to Dr Groome, however, the British East India Company sent someone to the Moluccas to collect nutmeg for planting in Penning Island in 1796, where they flourished for many years. He says that other planting were attempted, with various degrees of success in Calcutta, Madras, Brazil and several West Indian islands. Dr Groome makes many interesting points in his paper, which I won't quote. He identifies the individuals and estates associated with Grenada nutmeg from 1843. But he also points out that nutmegs had been established in many West Indian islands by 1824. Apparently one of the first trees planted in the Trinidad botanical gardens was a nutmeg brought from St Vincent. He does say, however, that at this point, nutmegs were of no commercial significance. George Brizan, in his history of the island, notes that commercial nutmeg production dates from 1860 - 1878 production was 470 cwts, by 1929 it had reached 22,666 cwts and accounted for 22% of world exports. I won't go into the esoteric details of estate ownership, sugar's decline and the rise and importance of the nutmeg. I just would like to defend Dr Groome and to say that I know that all his opinions were well researched and without bias, at least as much as any of ours are. Sorry if this is off topic. Nutmegs have been a bone of contention for centuries. By the way, I never heard of Banks visiting Grenada and it was only through Cindy's post that I heard of any connection between la Grenade and nutmegs. We learn a lot from this newsgroup. I do know the liqueur, however. I haven't had it since the days when the family used the recycled green Mateus Rose wine bottles - in those days it was what we now call "home based." As I remember, it tasted something like Cointreau or Grand Marnier. I don't remember a nutmeg taste. I have personally never understood the attraction to nutmeg flavour. David

> Richard, Please don't be offended, but I get the impression you haven't done your homework on Grenada history where it comes to the nutmeg. La Grenade and Gurney are given the credit here and can be found in the Records Office in St. George's. La Grenade's family is still living on his estate and continue with the family business involving nutmegs - these are not "may also be true" statements. I feel your statements may be "true" on a West Indies in general look at moving plants and spices, but not to Grenada itself. Are you actually aware of the British-French scene on this island in the late 1700's - not an in-general question about the islands, but this particular one? Do you know why La Grenade had the nutmegs in the first place? Please know I am not saying this in a "biting" way, but am asking your knowledge of this particular island's history with nutmegs. I don't think "we" are producing a correct statement on the history of nutmegs in Grenada at all - I think the nation of Grenada has that down pretty clear. best regards, Cindy > Hi Cindy, > > We should not take it literally that Sir Joseph Banks himself, > physically went to Grenada and planted Nutmegs, or any other crop for > that matter, or in any other of the British territories, while he was > the botanical adviser to King George III. He may have advised it, to > be grown by British colonists, because Kew Gardens had a long history > of collecting plants from around the world and studying them. Since > spices were so valuable, and the Dutch East Indies had a monopoly of > it, the English had an incentive to study it and to see where it might > be grown to the profit of the Crown and British Capitalists. Kew may > also have looked at the chemistry of the Nutmeg in terms of extracts. > > So what you say here is quite true that : "I don't think Banks ever > visited Grenada and I can say for sure he did > not introduce nutmegs - for one, he was a collector of plants for KEW > and then encouraged via prizes for others to plant specific species on > the islands." > > And what you say here may also be true. That: > > "Louis La Grenade, a French mulatto planter in the late 1700's is > actually the first successful planter on the > island to grow the spice." If we can establish when La Granade > actually began growing, the spice and if it was before 1782, then he > has the credit, but for French growers, that is, as far as the British > were concerned. > > When the British wrote the history of Nutmeg in the Island they would > give credit to a Britisher, especially if his production ended up in > the British Market. So what you say here can also be true that: > > "A British planter named Gurney .... is given credit for introducing > nutmeg onto the island in 1843" although "Louis La Granade was > cultivating it in the 1700's." And you do say "late 1700's" which puts > it close to 1782 and after. But the question still remains to clinch > the case, when in the 1700's? And if before 1782, the answer will > still be that he was first among the French. > > Even giving credit to Gurney in 1843 might not be correct. Gurney may > have only been the first large producer/exporter of the Spice to the > British Market. I am sure there may have been many smaller > experimental producers among the British, who did all the hard work of > learning how to cultivate trees, tend them against pests, and > parasites be they insect or fungi, and process the crop and preparing > it for market etc., on a small limited scale. And the same thing may > also be said for smaller French European or Mulatto planters before La > Grenade. And you do say that he was "actually the first successful > planter to grow the crop." But he may have been just the first > succesful planter among the French. > > Even if the British learnt how to grow the crop from the French, they > would give the credit to Gurney for being the first successful > Britisher to produce large marketable crops for the British Market, > just as credit may have been given to La Grenade by the French for > being the first successful French planter for the French Market. > > But it still does not mean that it may not have been Sir Joseph Banks > advice that led the British to experiment for themselves with growing > the crop in the first place. Banks recommendation may have been > crucial for the British. Why? With his advice, venture capitalists > would come forward and be willing to invest in schemes to get the crop > going. It was valuable enough to risk investing in it. Don't forget > that for every successful plantation be it sugar or any other, there > were a myriad of creditors, giving loans and mortgages to pay the > costs of the plantation, to buy and prepare the land, provide food for > the slaves, wages for the workers after slavery, costs of outfitting > or chartering ships, insuring the ships and crops etc., long before > the crop is even planted or harvested or shipped. With the failure of > sugar cultivation and the advent of nutmeg cultivation as a > possibility, the capitalists (adventurers as they were called in the > 1600's) who may have lost money on s! > ugar in the 1840's after slavery was abolished, now had a new crop to > recoup their losses. > > At least we are getting closer to a correct statement of the History > of Nutmeg in Grenada. > >

My g-g-g grandfather, Matthew Wallen(abt. 1719-1797), who was an amateur botanist, in a letter to Sir Joseph Banks now in the manuscripts section at the British Library (MSS 33.977 Vol.1, Banks correspondence, ff. 267; 23 September 1784) says that a "Captain Marshall took a French ship sent from the Isle of Bourbon with many fine plants which he presented to the Botanic Garden. Among them are Cinnamon, Mango, Mangosteens, Bread-fruit, not that of the S.sea, the walking Cane, 3 or 4 sorts of acacia & several others, that we don't yet know, but believe the Jack to be one. This ship had the Nutmeg, Cloves and Black Pepper but destroy'd them on finding she could not escape. Had our good people the attention of the French to their colonies we should not be long without these last." From that I would suggest that nutmeg may have come to the British West Indies rather later than 1782 which is the date that Cpat Marshall is said to have brought the other fruit. Marshall was part of Rodney's fleet. Edward Crawford ----- Original Message ----- From: "Richard Allicock" <richwyn@idirect.com> To: <CARIBBEAN-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Saturday, May 31, 2003 12:17 AM Subject: Nutmeg History Grenada > Hi Cindy, > > We should not take it literally that Sir Joseph Banks himself, physically went to Grenada and planted Nutmegs, or any other crop for that matter, or in any other of the British territories, while he was the botanical adviser to King George III. He may have advised it, to be grown by British colonists, because Kew Gardens had a long history of collecting plants from around the world and studying them. Since spices were so valuable, and the Dutch East Indies had a monopoly of it, the English had an incentive to study it and to see where it might be grown to the profit of the Crown and British Capitalists. Kew may also have looked at the chemistry of the Nutmeg in terms of extracts. > > So what you say here is quite true that : "I don't think Banks ever visited Grenada and I can say for sure he did > not introduce nutmegs - for one, he was a collector of plants for KEW > and then encouraged via prizes for others to plant specific species on > the islands." > > And what you say here may also be true. That: > > "Louis La Grenade, a French mulatto planter in the late 1700's is actually the first successful planter on the > island to grow the spice." If we can establish when La Granade actually began growing, the spice and if it was before 1782, then he has the credit, but for French growers, that is, as far as the British were concerned. > > When the British wrote the history of Nutmeg in the Island they would give credit to a Britisher, especially if his production ended up in the British Market. So what you say here can also be true that: > > "A British planter named Gurney .... is given credit for introducing nutmeg onto the island in 1843" although "Louis La Granade was cultivating it in the 1700's." And you do say "late 1700's" which puts it close to 1782 and after. But the question still remains to clinch the case, when in the 1700's? And if before 1782, the answer will still be that he was first among the French. > > Even giving credit to Gurney in 1843 might not be correct. Gurney may have only been the first large producer/exporter of the Spice to the British Market. I am sure there may have been many smaller experimental producers among the British, who did all the hard work of learning how to cultivate trees, tend them against pests, and parasites be they insect or fungi, and process the crop and preparing it for market etc., on a small limited scale. And the same thing may also be said for smaller French European or Mulatto planters before La Grenade. And you do say that he was "actually the first successful planter to grow the crop." But he may have been just the first succesful planter among the French. > > Even if the British learnt how to grow the crop from the French, they would give the credit to Gurney for being the first successful Britisher to produce large marketable crops for the British Market, just as credit may have been given to La Grenade by the French for being the first successful French planter for the French Market. > > But it still does not mean that it may not have been Sir Joseph Banks advice that led the British to experiment for themselves with growing the crop in the first place. Banks recommendation may have been crucial for the British. Why? With his advice, venture capitalists would come forward and be willing to invest in schemes to get the crop going. It was valuable enough to risk investing in it. Don't forget that for every successful plantation be it sugar or any other, there were a myriad of creditors, giving loans and mortgages to pay the costs of the plantation, to buy and prepare the land, provide food for the slaves, wages for the workers after slavery, costs of outfitting or chartering ships, insuring the ships and crops etc., long before the crop is even planted or harvested or shipped. With the failure of sugar cultivation and the advent of nutmeg cultivation as a possibility, the capitalists (adventurers as they were called in the 1600's) who may have lost money on s! > ugar in the 1840's after slavery was abolished, now had a new crop to recoup their losses. > > At least we are getting closer to a correct statement of the History of Nutmeg in Grenada. > > Richard > > > ==== CARIBBEAN Mailing List ==== > all messages posted to CARIBBEAN-L are archived at http://archiver.rootsweb.com/ > Before posting a query, see if the question has already been asked > > > ______________________________________________________________ > This message has been scanned by the Datanet VirusScreen Service, > powered by BT Ignite and Messagelabs. For more information please > visit http://www.VirusScreen.co.uk. > ______________________________________________________________ This message has been scanned by the Datanet VirusScreen Service, powered by BT Ignite and Messagelabs. For more information please visit http://www.VirusScreen.co.uk.

Dear Richard.. I didnt mean that they settled in one place and stayed there.. but I was surprised when I found how many plantations they were in in a comparitively short period of time.. thus also wondering if the family had proerty there evn earlier than I now can track. I wondered if it was also inherited Thanks again.. Lenora ----- Original Message ----- From: "Richard Allicock" <richwyn@idirect.com> To: <CARIBBEAN-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Friday, May 30, 2003 2:47 PM Subject: Re: Nutmeg History Grenada/ > Hi Leonora, > > You should not expect people to settle in one place and stay there > generation after generation. On a very large territory that is quite > possible, for people to settle in one place and stay within the general > area. But such is the nature of economic opportunities and family > relationships that people will move. In the case of a small Island like > Grenada people will spread out sooner rather than later. > > The push comes from inheritance practices, mainly from Primogeniture or the > passing down of property to the first born son or next in line. The other > children had to get their own land if they wanted to own a plantation or a > farm to make a living. There might be land becoming available nearby due to > sale, but more likely not, and those desiring land would have to go where it > was available. > > By 1843, there would have been a patch-work: of land still in use, land for > sale; land abandoned by the owners and up for sale by the authorities. So > people went where the land was, and this would go on generation after > generation with the spread you have encountered in relation to your own > family research. > > I hope this helps. > > Richard > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Lenora Anderson" <ldanderson@sbcglobal.net> > To: <CARIBBEAN-L@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Thursday, May 29, 2003 4:51 PM > Subject: Re: Nutmeg History Grenada > > > > Thank you Richard.. I visited all these site Interestingly enough IF > > Nutmeg started in 1843.. that is the exact year that the grandparents > > started plantations.. One thing that interest me after seeing all these > > maps... is how our grandparents were at one time all over Grenada in > > different areas. You assume that they arrive there and mostly live in the > > general area. I find mine from St. John's to St David's.. mention in LDS > > paper Carriacou, and Hillsbourough , and Gouyave,on several birth > > certificates of children.. Was this common?? Or did I have a larger family > > than I now know??? Very interesting. Lenora > > From: "Richard Allicock" <richwyn@idirect.com> > > To: <CARIBBEAN-L@rootsweb.com> > > Sent: Thursday, May 29, 2003 7:19 PM > > Subject: Nutmeg History Grenada > > > > > > > Some-one wrote recently that Nutmeg cultivation was introduced to > Grenada > > in 1843. The source below certainly supports that. > > > > > > > > > In 1843, nutmeg is introduced to Grenada from the Dutch East Indies and > > soon takes over from sugar as the island's principal export. > > > > > > SOURCE: > > http://www.information.kuoni.co.uk/Common/CountryInfo/Info/GDGND2.html > > > > > > > > > But then other sources say this: > > > During the 18th century, Grenada's economy underwent an important > > transition. Like much of the rest of the West Indies it was originally > > settled to cultivate sugar which was grown on estates using slave labor. > But > > natural disasters paved the way for the introduction of other crops. In > > 1782, Sir Joseph Banks, the botanical adviser to King George III, > introduced > > nutmeg to Grenada. The island's soil was ideal for growing the spice and > > because Grenada was a closer source of spices for Europe than the Dutch > East > > Indies the island assumed a new importance to European traders. > > > > > > The collapse of the sugar estates and the introduction of nutmeg and > cocoa > > encouraged the development of smaller land holdings, and the island > > developed a land-owning yeoman farmer class. > > > > > > SOURCES:: > > > > > > http://www.traveldocs.com/gd/history.htm. > > > > > > > > > www.wikipedia.org/wiki/History+of+Grenada > > > > > > www.worldrover.com/history/grenada_history.html > > > > > > globaledge.msu.edu/ibrd/ CountryHistory.asp?CountryID=126&RegionID=4 > > > > > > Can we reconcile the two versions of History? Thanks. > > > > > > Richard > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ==== CARIBBEAN Mailing List ==== > > > For information on individual islands, research aids, island bulletin > > boards or history please visit the CaribbeanGenWeb project at > > > http://www.rootsweb.com/~caribgw/ > > > > > > ==== CARIBBEAN Mailing List ==== > > For information on individual islands, research aids, island bulletin > boards or history please visit the CaribbeanGenWeb project at > > http://www.rootsweb.com/~caribgw/ > > > > > > > ==== CARIBBEAN Mailing List ==== > all messages posted to CARIBBEAN-L are archived at http://archiver.rootsweb.com/ > Before posting a query, see if the question has already been asked

unsubscribe ----- Original Message ----- From: <CARIBBEAN-D-request@rootsweb.com> To: <CARIBBEAN-D@rootsweb.com> Sent: Thursday, May 29, 2003 7:50 PM Subject: CARIBBEAN-D Digest V03 #154

In 1782, when Sir Joseph Banks was reputed to have introduced the nutmeg to Grenada, sugar was still "king", so it probably didn't becoe a popular crop until after the abolition of slavery in 1838. I think beet sugar became cheaper to produce in Europe quite a bit earlier than emancipation and abolition, coupled with this new European crop speller disaster for West Indian sugar economies so it is not surprising that nutmeg and other spices became popular crops in the 19th Century. Jenny Sanchez

Thanks for the info re J. J. Haddock. I have never come across the name of Severine Haddock from Curacao who lived on St. Thomas inthe mid 1840s. If I should in the future, I will answer on this list. Thanks again.

This is from the history section of the official Panama Canal web site and concerns the source of the labor force. I believe that many more islands were represented and in many more years, as I noticed West Indians arriving in New York (Ellis Island) from the Canal Zone. WORK FORCE The following chart shows the maximum force employed during each year of construction work Date Work Force May, 1904 1,000 (Approx.) Nov., 1904 3,500 Nov., 1905 17,000 Dec., 1906 23,901 Oct., 1907 31,967 Apr., 1908 33,170 Oct., 1909 35,495 Mar., 1910 38,676 Dec., 1911 37,826 June, 1912 38,174 Aug., 1913 39,962 June, 1914 33,270 The following table shows the total number of contract laborers brought to the Isthmus throughout the work. It does not include the number of workers recruited from the United States. Country 1904 1905 1906 1907 1908 1909 1910 1911 1912 1913 Spain 1,174 5,293 1,831 Cuba 500 Italy 909 1,032 Greece 1,101 France 19 Armenia 14 Total Europeans 2,616 7,426 1,831 Fortune Island 361 Barbados 404 3,019 6,510 3,242 2,592 3,605 528 Guadeloupe 2,039 14 Martinique 2,733 585 2,224 Jamaica 47 Trinidad 1,079 205 143 Curacao 23 St. Kitts 933 9 St. Lucia 55 St. Vincent 296 Grenada 93 British Guiana 332 Total West Indies 404 5,799 9,491 7,505 2,592 3,605 205 942 528 Costa Rica 244 Colombia 1,077 416 Panama 334 10 13 Not classified 69 Grand Total 404 7,454 12,602 14,944 4,423 3,605 205 942 528 Providing food for more than 40,000 employees and their families in a country with little food production capability and few stores was a tremendous task at the beginning. With the goal in mind of maintaining a healthy and contented work force, the Isthmian Canal Commission imported food on the Panama Railroad steamers. They also started farms to grow fruits and vegetables, even plants and flowers, as well as farms to produce milk and eggs. It was a difficult task in the beginning, but every effort was made to ensure adequate living standards, in accordance with standards of the time, for canal workers. Ice and cold storage warehouses were constructed, and a bakery and ice cream plant were set up. The Panama Railroad had refrigerated cars to provide distribution to settlements along the line of the canal. Hotels or restaurants were established for the American bachelors. A number of mess halls were built for the European laborers where meals were furnished at 40 cents per day. Kitchens were built for the West Indian laborers. Rations were furnished and cooked in these kitchens for 30 cents per day. source: http://www.pancanal.com/eng/history/history/index.html

Hi Cindy, We should not take it literally that Sir Joseph Banks himself, physically went to Grenada and planted Nutmegs, or any other crop for that matter, or in any other of the British territories, while he was the botanical adviser to King George III. He may have advised it, to be grown by British colonists, because Kew Gardens had a long history of collecting plants from around the world and studying them. Since spices were so valuable, and the Dutch East Indies had a monopoly of it, the English had an incentive to study it and to see where it might be grown to the profit of the Crown and British Capitalists. Kew may also have looked at the chemistry of the Nutmeg in terms of extracts. So what you say here is quite true that : "I don't think Banks ever visited Grenada and I can say for sure he did not introduce nutmegs - for one, he was a collector of plants for KEW and then encouraged via prizes for others to plant specific species on the islands." And what you say here may also be true. That: "Louis La Grenade, a French mulatto planter in the late 1700's is actually the first successful planter on the island to grow the spice." If we can establish when La Granade actually began growing, the spice and if it was before 1782, then he has the credit, but for French growers, that is, as far as the British were concerned. When the British wrote the history of Nutmeg in the Island they would give credit to a Britisher, especially if his production ended up in the British Market. So what you say here can also be true that: "A British planter named Gurney .... is given credit for introducing nutmeg onto the island in 1843" although "Louis La Granade was cultivating it in the 1700's." And you do say "late 1700's" which puts it close to 1782 and after. But the question still remains to clinch the case, when in the 1700's? And if before 1782, the answer will still be that he was first among the French. Even giving credit to Gurney in 1843 might not be correct. Gurney may have only been the first large producer/exporter of the Spice to the British Market. I am sure there may have been many smaller experimental producers among the British, who did all the hard work of learning how to cultivate trees, tend them against pests, and parasites be they insect or fungi, and process the crop and preparing it for market etc., on a small limited scale. And the same thing may also be said for smaller French European or Mulatto planters before La Grenade. And you do say that he was "actually the first successful planter to grow the crop." But he may have been just the first succesful planter among the French. Even if the British learnt how to grow the crop from the French, they would give the credit to Gurney for being the first successful Britisher to produce large marketable crops for the British Market, just as credit may have been given to La Grenade by the French for being the first successful French planter for the French Market. But it still does not mean that it may not have been Sir Joseph Banks advice that led the British to experiment for themselves with growing the crop in the first place. Banks recommendation may have been crucial for the British. Why? With his advice, venture capitalists would come forward and be willing to invest in schemes to get the crop going. It was valuable enough to risk investing in it. Don't forget that for every successful plantation be it sugar or any other, there were a myriad of creditors, giving loans and mortgages to pay the costs of the plantation, to buy and prepare the land, provide food for the slaves, wages for the workers after slavery, costs of outfitting or chartering ships, insuring the ships and crops etc., long before the crop is even planted or harvested or shipped. With the failure of sugar cultivation and the advent of nutmeg cultivation as a possibility, the capitalists (adventurers as they were called in the 1600's) who may have lost money on s! ugar in the 1840's after slavery was abolished, now had a new crop to recoup their losses. At least we are getting closer to a correct statement of the History of Nutmeg in Grenada. Richard