A good book with a section on this subject is "Slave Society in the Danish West Indies" by Neville A T Hall

The Johnny Carson Show's producer for many years was a man named Freddy deCordova whose parents were from Jamaica. There is an institution near Boston which was founded by a Jamaican called the "deCordova Museum" after Julian deCordova whose family had a business called Leonard deCordova & Sons mostly in hardware. The family paid for a shipment of glass. It was never delivered as the company went bankrupt. Julian was sent to the States to collect and ended up as the owner. He managed to make a fortune which he left invested in kitsch when he died. His executors sold it off and turned the building into an exhibit hall. The Presidents aunt was active there for awhile. Does anyone remember the "Waco Wacko" not David Kores but our own particular affliction. We had a poster who lost touch with her roots remembering only the boast that her family had ancestors who founded Waco and complained that they were being told that the founders were not Catholic.

Thank you Dean While some have been very helpful, my enquiry amassed such a wealth of "I-know-u-know |(and-YOU-don't)" - equal, easily, to "Do-gooding". Yours has been the first GENTLE word given; I treasure it, and I bless you. Sara ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dean de Freitas" <caribgw@bellsouth.net> To: <CARIBBEAN-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Monday, June 16, 2003 8:21 PM Subject: Re: MSNBC News Link: DNA tackles a familys mysteries > Hey folks, > > I need to say that I agree with Sara here. We have a lot of folks that come > to this list to learn more about a region and subject that is subject to > many misconceptions. It behooves us all to be patient and helpful in our > responses. > > Dean > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Sara Weiss" <ksara@tesco.net> > To: <CARIBBEAN-L@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Monday, June 16, 2003 3:11 PM > Subject: Re: MSNBC News Link: DNA tackles a familys mysteries > > > > if you know so much it would be good if you shared your knowledge > > in a way that was edifying, not in a way that PUTS DOWN? > > > ==== CARIBBEAN Mailing List ==== > For information on individual islands, research aids, island bulletin boards or history please visit the CaribbeanGenWeb project at > http://www.rootsweb.com/~caribgw/ >

LOL, sorry Richard, I'm a little slow on the uptake! In any case, I thought it was funny. On Monday, June 16, 2003, at 03:16 PM, Richard Bond wrote: > WebTV > > I was saying that I could not take on being the coordinator because I > do > > > ==== CARIBBEAN Mailing List ==== > Before posting a query, check to see if the question has already been > asked on the List. All messages posted to CARIBBEAN-L are archived by > date or thread at http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index/CARIBBEAN. > You can search the archives at > http://listsearches.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/listsearch.pl?list=CARIBBEAN. >

Like Ernest, I also wished to keep out of this discussion, but feel I must make a comment regarding the Jews of Jamaica. There is evidence of the existence of Sephardic Jews, who had fled the Inquisition in both Spain and Portugal, in Jamaica during the time of Spanish occupation. These Jews remained in Jamaica after the Conquest in 1655. I would recommend that anyone interested in the Sephardic Diaspora, particularly as it refers to Jamaica, read the interesting little book by Mordechai Arbell, "The Portuguese Jews of Jamaica". For further information about the Sephardic Jews in general I suggest Jane Gerber's "The Jews of Spain". Piet Huisman has written an excellent little book, "Sephardim: the spirit that has withstood the times", mainly about the Sephardic Jews who settled in Amsterdam and then in the Dutch West Indies, specifically Curacao, Suriname, etc. A much larger work on that topic is Isaac Emmanuel's "History of the Jews of the Netherlands Antilles". I mention these books because there is evidence that there was movement of Sephardic Jews between the Netherlands Antilles and Jamaica, as there was between those Sephardic Jews who found refuge for a time in Recife, in the Pernambuco province of Brazil, and then were forced to leave once the territory was captured from the Dutch by the Portuguese. Many of these Jews found their way to Barbados for some time, thanks to permission granted them by Oliver Cromwell, the Protector. I know of at least one family that left Barbados for Jamaica. Many of the Sephardic Jews who came to Jamaica did so from England, where they had been given permission by Cromwell to settle, some 400 years after they had been expelled by Edward I. Around the late 1780s Jews from England with German background also settled in Jamaica, and founded the English and German Synagogue in Kingston, at a time when there were several Sephardic synagogues in the island. There is absolutely no credibility to the claim that Ethiopian Jews ever settled in Jamaica. To my knowledge the only connection to Ethiopia is the 20th century Ras Tafari movement which came out of Marcus Garvey's Back to Africa movement, in which the followers of the Rastafarian cult took the Emperor Haile Selassie, the "Lion of Judah", of Ethiopia, whose original name was Ras Tafari, as their spiritual leader. Other than that there was no ethnic connection to Ethiopia. I don't want to get into any particular argument regarding physical appearances, etc., but it should be noted that there was miscegenation between Jews and blacks in Jamaica. There is evidence of this in various will where Jews have recognized their natural children. And of course, there has always been intermarriage among races in Jamaica, which no doubt accounts for our motto: "Out of Many, One People". Finally, to completely understand the Diaspora as a result of the Inquisition I strongly recommend Jeffrey S. Malka's recent book, "Sephardic Genealogy: discovering your Sephardic ancestors and their world". It will help people to understand just how far afield the Jews of Spain and Portugal fled to and settled, and how to go about researching the records. This book is available from Avotaynu, Inc., Bergenfield, NJ. Mordechai Arbell has also compiled an excellent bibliography, "Spanish and Portuguese Jews in the Caribbean and the Guainas". There is a lot of information out there. Remember, folks! We really cannot do good genealogical research without first studying the history and geography of the region where we are researching! Dorothy ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ernest M. Wiltshire" <murcot@synapse.net> To: <CARIBBEAN-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: June 16, 2003 6:03 PM Subject: RE: MSNBC News Link: DNA tackles a familys mysteries I had deliberately kept out of this discussion, as I did not care for the tone it was taking, but I must come to Russ Campbell's defence, as my reaction to some of the statements being put forward as fact was total disbelief. I think that if one is truly seeking knowledge, it is unwise to insist on conjecture as if it were proven fact, and even more unwise to attack those whose well-founded knowledge contradicts the fiction. Moreover, Russ did say in his message that he apologized in advance if he was mistaken, and that should have been more than enough apology; but he can hardly be blamed for wondering whether this was all a put on: remember we have had such an experience on this List earlier, so forgive us if we are sometimes sceptical about queries that seem excessively naïve. But enough already Re the topic of the slave trade, I would recommend yet another very useful book: "The Atlantic Slave Trade: A Census" by Philip D, CURTIN, 1969, University of Wisconsin Press, ISBN 0-299-05400; LC 69 17325, He deals with the difficult problem of how the numbers of slaves imported from Africa have been calculated. It is again clear from this work, that the vast majority of slaves came from West Africa: mainly from Senegambia, the Bight of Biafra, the Bight of Benin, the Gold Coast (i.e. Ghana) and so on, and a tiny percentage from Mozambique & Madagascar. [People also tend to forget that a great proportion of the slaves went to Brazil, not to North America, because of the Portuguese connection]. Anyone with a particular interest in the Transatlantic Slave Trade should not forget the numerous excellent books (& CDs) by David ELTIS, which should be relatively easy to find. Ernest ==== CARIBBEAN Mailing List ==== The CARIBBEAN-L FAQ can be found at http://www.rootsweb.com/~caribgw/mailinglistfaq.htm.

"Infer" "putting us on" "as ill-informed as she p r e t e n d s" - P L E A S E, you really are hostile. It is unwarranted. I am innocent, I do not pretend to know anything and if you know so much it would be good if you shared your knowledge in a way that was edifying, not in a way that PUTS DOWN? Sara ----- Original Message ----- From: "Russ Campbell" <russ.campbell@cogeco.ca> To: <CARIBBEAN-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Monday, June 16, 2003 2:17 PM Subject: RE: MSNBC News Link: DNA tackles a familys mysteries > Haley died February 10, 1992, of a heart attack. The Jews of > Jamaica are "white" and of mixed race, predominantly Sephardic > Jew and West African. I HAVE done research and HAVE spoken to > many Jamaican Jews, including members of my family. > > I'm just guessing here, but I think Sara may be putting us on? > If I'm wrong, then please accept my apology, but I find it > difficult to believe that this person is as ill-informed as > she pretends. > > Cheers, > > Russ > -------------------------------------- > Persevere > > Russell G. Campbell > Burlington, ON, Canada > My Home page: www.it4biz.com/omnibus > My Magazine: http://www.it4biz.com/omnibus/PortOfCall > My Blog: http://www.it4biz.com/omnibus/rantrave > My Genealogy: http://www.it4biz.com/omnibus/genealogy > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Sara Weiss [mailto:ksara@tesco.net] > Sent: Monday, June 16, 2003 5:55 AM > To: CARIBBEAN-L@rootsweb.com > > Mm that't food for thought Heather. I don;t know whether Alex > Haley is still alive but I have written him a letter anyway. > He seems to very genuine in his research and in his account of > meeting his far-off relatives in Gambia. Only the film seems > to full of innacuracies? > > I didn't know about the Spanish and Portuguese refugees in > Jamaica. In all that I have read about the Inquisition, this > point has never come up. Always, the beleaguered Jews of Spain > went to Italy or France, but you could be right - I've never > researched and never spoken to any Jamaican Jews. REv de > Souza never mentioned any 'white' members of the large > community but maybe 'cus everyone knew about them. > > Sara > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Heather Figueroa" <heatherfig@rogers.com> > To: <CARIBBEAN-L@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Monday, June 16, 2003 8:02 AM > Subject: Re: MSNBC News Link: DNA tackles a familys mysteries > > > > Sara..... > > > > Maybe I am missing the point here, but one of the reasons > for a 'large > > Jewish population' in Jamaica could be because they were > Spanish and > > Portuguese Jews who fled the Inquisition.......and while > some of them > > stayed catholic (conversos), others reverted back. > > > > And I, personally, have my reservations on Alex Haley's > 'discovery' of > > his African roots. Having seen Jamaican slave journals, I > find it > > rather hard to believe that he actually found his ancestors. > Not enough > > information in the journals....and their names were English > ones given > > by the owners. Not their African ones......but I could be > wrong. > > Perhaps in his case, there was enough 'oral' > history......but I would > > have to be convinced. > > > > I just thought I would throw this out for > discussion.......DQ, you > > listening? > > > > Cheers....Heather > > > > > Ann, as I have already discussed elsewhere, look at Alex > Haley's > > Epilogue to his "Roots". He researches the ship that > carried his > > forefather, Kunte Kinta from Gambia - it went straight to > America. As > > far as I have ever heard, slave ships went there from Africa > regularly. > > IN the book "Roots" the question of which slaves went to the > Caribbean > > comes up. Apparently, it was the unteachable slaves who were > often > > transported there. But also, I have this info that slaves > from Ethiopia > > went straight there and stayed there. > > > > > > Why else was there such a large Jewish population of, for > instance, > > Jamaica? Why are Jews so prevalent there - except in > Anguilla the > > island at which I am looking . There, Jews have become > Christian at > > least in namesake. > > > > > > But I am a beginner in all this. I only repeat what I > have learned so > > far, but it doesn't correspond to what you are saying. > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > Sara > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > From: "Ann Whiting" <aqw8326@hotmail.com> > > > To: <CARIBBEAN-L@rootsweb.com> > > > Sent: Saturday, June 14, 2003 11:41 PM > > > Subject: Re: MSNBC News Link: DNA tackles a familys > mysteries > > > > > > > > > > Dear Sara, > > > > I have long been shouting in the wilderness, that slave > ships/slaves > > did not > > > > arrive in the US via non stop cruses, but were first > sold in in > > Caribbean. > > > > Seasoning is not something that is mentioned, or hardly > ever > > mentioned when > > > > Slavery is discussed. That was a period of breaking the > newly > > captured > > > > slaves. If they had the misfortune to survive the > crossing, they > > were first > > > > broken in the islands. > > > > The misconception of the Triangle trade is that slaves > were acquired > > in > > > > Africa, ships stopped in the Caribbean for provisions > and rum and > > then > > > > proceeded to the US. The truth is , newly captured > slaves were sold > > in the > > > > Caribbean, and 'Seasoned' slaves were bought, then taken > to the US > > for > > > > resale. > > > > Every African American has an African Caribbean > connection. > > > > Records show that that St. Thomas and Curacao were major > Seasoning > > Markets, > > > > as the Dutch, owned plantation on these islands, and > owned the Forts > > in > > > > Africa, and the ships they did not have to use a > middleman. > > > > So the possibility of a caribbean connection is not that > > far-fetched. > > > > A Jewish connection is also possible as Brandenburg > Company which > > managed > > > > these stations were started and financed by Portuguese > Jews from > > Bergen and > > > > Gluckstadt. > > > > In genealogy one must keep an open mind and expected the > unexpected. > > > > Ann > > > > > > > > > > > > ----Original Message Follows---- > > > > From: "Sara Weiss" <ksara@tesco.net> > > > > Reply-To: CARIBBEAN-L@rootsweb.com > > > > To: CARIBBEAN-L@rootsweb.com > > > > Subject: Re: MSNBC News Link: DNA tackles a familys > mysteries > > > > Date: Sat, 14 Jun 2003 23:04:05 +0100 > > > > > > > > I'll tell you something else. Although I am mad keen to > find out my > > Jewish > > > > ancestry, possibly thro DNA - but unlikely according to > Richard, > > thanks > > > > Richard for saving me time and trouble - I have two > black ancestors > > too. > > > > > > > > Accounts for my very frizzy hair and love of music > mayhaps! > > Reading > > > > "Roots" by Alex Haley has now, more than this website, > made me start > > to > > > > wonder about them. One was a slave who bought his > freedom - West > > Indies or > > > > America I do not know. The other was from the Caribbean > but I do > > not know > > > > where. My husband and I are similar in looks and he and > some of my > > children > > > > have the same features. His whole family are from > Anguilla BWI and > > so one > > > > wonders if there is a Black connection . Are we > descended from the > > same > > > > line. > > > > > > > > All slaves in the Caribbean came from Ethiopa - > Christian ?Muslim > > and Jewish > > > > (Falasha). But, he is also Jewish, so we may have > descended from > > the same > > > > person, way way back, in Israel. But then how could the > appearance > > be so > > > > similar after 3,000 years!!! The black line is more > probable. But > > the > > > > likelihood of my ancestors coming also from Anguilla is > almost > > prepostrous. > > > > Who knows? You'd need to be rich to find out!! > > > > > > > > One just keeps these things under one;s hat but nothing > much can be > > done to > > > > find out more - unless one is the subject of some far > out TV > > documentary!!! > > > > > > > > However, I am just pleased to be part of all this, in a > sort of > > 'inner' way. > > > > Know what I mean? > > > > > > > > Sara Weiss > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > From: <richwyn@idirect.com> > > > > To: <CARIBBEAN-L@rootsweb.com> > > > > Sent: Wednesday, June 11, 2003 11:44 PM > > > > Subject: MSNBC News Link: DNA tackles a familys > mysteries > > > > > > > > > > > > > Richard Allicock sent you this MSNBC News Link: > > > > > > > > > > Message: > > > > > Sara Weisss re-appearane on the DNA Issue was quite > timely. Here > > is an > > > > MSNBC account of some-one trying to use DNA to fill the > gaps in his > > reearch. > > > > There is also a link to the African Genetics for > Genealogy > > company, > > > > Afrigenesis for those who are interested. Richard > > > > > > > > > > ** DNA tackles a familys mysteries ** > > > > > DNA testing is adding a scientific twist to the > search for family > > roots, > > > > one of the worlds most popular pursuits. Follow MSNBCs > Alan Boyle on > > the > > > > genetic trail. > > > > > > > > > > > > > http://www.msnbc.com/modules/exports/ct_email.asp?/news/682153 > .asp > > > > > > > > > > > > > ______________________________________________________________ > ________ > > > > > Check out the hour's top stories on MSNBC.com > > <http://www.msnbc.com> > > > > > > > > > > MSNBC does not confirm the E-mail address of the > sender of this > > MSNBC > > > > News Link. For your information, the sender's IP > Address is: > > 207.46.245.18 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ==== CARIBBEAN Mailing List ==== > > > > > For information on individual islands, research aids, > island > > bulletin > > > > boards or history please visit the CaribbeanGenWeb > project at > > > > > http://www.rootsweb.com/~caribgw/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ==== CARIBBEAN Mailing List ==== > > > > Before posting a query, check to see if the question has > already > > been asked > > > > on the List. All messages posted to CARIBBEAN-L are > archived by date > > or > > > > thread at > http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index/CARIBBEAN. You can > > search > > > > the archives at > > > > > > > http://listsearches.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/listsearch.pl?list=CA > RIBBEAN. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "Sharing the information." > > > > > > > > > ______________________________________________________________ > ___ > > > > STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* > > > > http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail > > > > > > > > > > > > ==== CARIBBEAN Mailing List ==== > > > > For information on individual islands, research aids, > island > > bulletin boards or history please visit the CaribbeanGenWeb > project at > > > > http://www.rootsweb.com/~caribgw/ > > > > > > > > > > > > > ==== CARIBBEAN Mailing List ==== > > > For information on individual islands, research aids, > island bulletin > > boards or history please visit the CaribbeanGenWeb project > at > > > http://www.rootsweb.com/~caribgw/ > > > > > > > > > ==== CARIBBEAN Mailing List ==== > > Before posting a query, check to see if the question has > already been asked on the List. All messages posted to > CARIBBEAN-L are archived by date or thread at > http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index/CARIBBEAN. You can > search the archives at > http://listsearches.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/listsearch.pl?list=CA > RIBBEAN. > > > > > > ==== CARIBBEAN Mailing List ==== > For information on individual islands, research aids, island bulletin boards or history please visit the CaribbeanGenWeb project at > http://www.rootsweb.com/~caribgw/ >

The first line is "has the freedom been legitimized with an official document."

Oh boy, do I wish I had never uttered a word in front of all you gleaming h'experts!! I was not INFERING anything Russ. I was told that the slaves that went to the Caribbean came from Ethiopia - told by a lady working for the Zionist Federation. Actually since I dared to mention this I have been shot down in flames then sliced up and cooked by the army of people against this idea as though abhorrent. maybe I should keep my big mouth shut. All I can do now is study the movement of slaves (from Africa to the Caribbean) more, to see if what i was told can be backed up by fact. Until then, please everyone, I don't wanna hear another word about it. It's too much already. Sara WEiss ----- Original Message ----- From: "Russ Campbell" <russ.campbell@cogeco.ca> To: <CARIBBEAN-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Monday, June 16, 2003 2:00 PM Subject: RE: MSNBC News Link: DNA tackles a familys mysteries > I would be careful about using Alex Haley's book, "Roots", as > a reference source -- based on lawsuits filed against Haley he > "borrows" from other un-attributed works principally "The > African," a 1967 novel by Hal Courlander and the novel > "Jubilee" by Margaret Walker. Fine entertainment but ... > > While we will never know for sure, it is unlikely that many > slaves arrived in the New World from Ethiopia (a) because of > its geographical location; (b) because of the prevalence of > Christians in that nation -- Europeans of the 16th through > 19th centuries did not want Christian slaves since a major > moral justification of the time was that the African slaves > taken were not Christians; and (c) there is no folklore/oral > history in the Islands to support such a theory. > > There seems to be an inference in Sara's message that the Jews > of Jamaica got there from Africa. Is this intended? It seems > to me to be quite clear that the Jews of Jamaica were > Sephardic and came from Spain initially and later from > Portugal via England, Brazil, Curacao, etc. The absence of the > Dominican Order (and therefore The Inquisition) during Spain's > occupation of that island may have had something to do with > this. > > Cheers, > > Russ > -------------------------------------- > Persevere > > Russell G. Campbell > Burlington, ON, Canada > My Home page: www.it4biz.com/omnibus > My Magazine: http://www.it4biz.com/omnibus/PortOfCall > My Blog: http://www.it4biz.com/omnibus/rantrave > My Genealogy: http://www.it4biz.com/omnibus/genealogy > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Sara Weiss [mailto:ksara@tesco.net] > Sent: Monday, June 16, 2003 2:49 AM > To: CARIBBEAN-L@rootsweb.com > > Ann, as I have already discussed elsewhere, look at Alex > Haley's Epilogue to his "Roots". He researches the ship that > carried his forefather, Kunte Kinta from Gambia - it went > straight to America. As far as I have ever heard, slave ships > went there from Africa regularly. IN the book "Roots" the > question of which slaves went to the Caribbean comes up. > Apparently, it was the unteachable slaves who were often > transported there. But also, I have this info that slaves from > Ethiopia went straight there and st > ayed there. > > Why else was there such a large Jewish population of, for > instance, Jamaica? Why are Jews so prevalent there - except > in Anguilla the island at which I am looking . There, Jews > have become Christian at least in namesake. > > But I am a beginner in all this. I only repeat what I have > learned so far, but it doesn't correspond to what you are > saying. > > Regards, > > Sara > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Ann Whiting" <aqw8326@hotmail.com> > To: <CARIBBEAN-L@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Saturday, June 14, 2003 11:41 PM > Subject: Re: MSNBC News Link: DNA tackles a familys mysteries > > > > Dear Sara, > > I have long been shouting in the wilderness, that slave > ships/slaves did not > > arrive in the US via non stop cruses, but were first sold in > in Caribbean. > > Seasoning is not something that is mentioned, or hardly ever > mentioned when > > Slavery is discussed. That was a period of breaking the > newly captured > > slaves. If they had the misfortune to survive the crossing, > they were first > > broken in the islands. > > The misconception of the Triangle trade is that slaves were > acquired in > > Africa, ships stopped in the Caribbean for provisions and > rum and then > > proceeded to the US. The truth is , newly captured slaves > were sold in the > > Caribbean, and 'Seasoned' slaves were bought, then taken to > the US for > > resale. > > Every African American has an African Caribbean connection. > > Records show that that St. Thomas and Curacao were major > Seasoning Markets, > > as the Dutch, owned plantation on these islands, and owned > the Forts in > > Africa, and the ships they did not have to use a middleman. > > So the possibility of a caribbean connection is not that > far-fetched. > > A Jewish connection is also possible as Brandenburg Company > which managed > > these stations were started and financed by Portuguese Jews > from Bergen and > > Gluckstadt. > > In genealogy one must keep an open mind and expected the > unexpected. > > Ann > > > > > > ----Original Message Follows---- > > From: "Sara Weiss" <ksara@tesco.net> > > Reply-To: CARIBBEAN-L@rootsweb.com > > To: CARIBBEAN-L@rootsweb.com > > Subject: Re: MSNBC News Link: DNA tackles a familys > mysteries > > Date: Sat, 14 Jun 2003 23:04:05 +0100 > > > > I'll tell you something else. Although I am mad keen to find > out my Jewish > > ancestry, possibly thro DNA - but unlikely according to > Richard, thanks > > Richard for saving me time and trouble - I have two black > ancestors too. > > > > Accounts for my very frizzy hair and love of music mayhaps! > Reading > > "Roots" by Alex Haley has now, more than this website, made > me start to > > wonder about them. One was a slave who bought his freedom - > West Indies or > > America I do not know. The other was from the Caribbean > but I do not know > > where. My husband and I are similar in looks and he and > some of my children > > have the same features. His whole family are from Anguilla > BWI and so one > > wonders if there is a Black connection . Are we descended > from the same > > line. > > > > All slaves in the Caribbean came from Ethiopa - Christian > ?Muslim and Jewish > > (Falasha). But, he is also Jewish, so we may have descended > from the same > > person, way way back, in Israel. But then how could the > appearance be so > > similar after 3,000 years!!! The black line is more > probable. But the > > likelihood of my ancestors coming also from Anguilla is > almost prepostrous. > > Who knows? You'd need to be rich to find out!! > > > > One just keeps these things under one;s hat but nothing much > can be done to > > find out more - unless one is the subject of some far out TV > documentary!!! > > > > However, I am just pleased to be part of all this, in a sort > of 'inner' way. > > Know what I mean? > > > > Sara Weiss > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: <richwyn@idirect.com> > > To: <CARIBBEAN-L@rootsweb.com> > > Sent: Wednesday, June 11, 2003 11:44 PM > > Subject: MSNBC News Link: DNA tackles a familys mysteries > > > > > > > Richard Allicock sent you this MSNBC News Link: > > > > > > Message: > > > Sara Weisss re-appearane on the DNA Issue was quite > timely. Here is an > > MSNBC account of some-one trying to use DNA to fill the gaps > in his reearch. > > There is also a link to the African Genetics for Genealogy > company, > > Afrigenesis for those who are interested. Richard > > > > > > ** DNA tackles a familys mysteries ** > > > DNA testing is adding a scientific twist to the search > for family roots, > > one of the worlds most popular pursuits. Follow MSNBCs Alan > Boyle on the > > genetic trail. > > > > > > > http://www.msnbc.com/modules/exports/ct_email.asp?/news/682153 > .asp > > > > > > > ______________________________________________________________ > ________ > > > Check out the hour's top stories on MSNBC.com > <http://www.msnbc.com> > > > > > > MSNBC does not confirm the E-mail address of the sender > of this MSNBC > > News Link. For your information, the sender's IP Address > is: 207.46.245.18 > > > > > > > > > ==== CARIBBEAN Mailing List ==== > > > For information on individual islands, research aids, > island bulletin > > boards or history please visit the CaribbeanGenWeb project > at > > > http://www.rootsweb.com/~caribgw/ > > > > > > > > > ==== CARIBBEAN Mailing List ==== > > Before posting a query, check to see if the question has > already been asked > > on the List. All messages posted to CARIBBEAN-L are archived > by date or > > thread at http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index/CARIBBEAN. > You can search > > the archives at > > > http://listsearches.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/listsearch.pl?list=CA > RIBBEAN. > > > > > > > > "Sharing the information." > > > > > ______________________________________________________________ > ___ > > STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* > > http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail > > > > > > ==== CARIBBEAN Mailing List ==== > > For information on individual islands, research aids, island > bulletin boards or history please visit the CaribbeanGenWeb > project at > > http://www.rootsweb.com/~caribgw/ > > > > > > ==== CARIBBEAN Mailing List ==== > To unsubscribe from the list send the word "unsubscribe" (without the quotes) as the only text in the body of an email message to CARIBBEAN-L-request@rootsweb.com for the list mode or CARIBBEAN-D-request@rootsweb.com if you are subscribed to the digest. >

Alba, You have to unsubscribe your old address and subscribe on your new one. Instructions here: http://www.rootsweb.com/~caribgw/mailinglist.html Dean On Monday, Jun 16, 2003, at 19:31 US/Eastern, Alba Dunlop wrote: > Please do not send any more e-mails to adunlop@ilap.com. I am > cancelling this server my new e-mail address in dalba@sympatico.ca. > Alba Dunlop > > > ==== CARIBBEAN Mailing List ==== > The CARIBBEAN-L FAQ can be found at > http://www.rootsweb.com/~caribgw/mailinglistfaq.htm. >

Please do not send any more e-mails to adunlop@ilap.com. I am cancelling this server my new e-mail address in dalba@sympatico.ca. Alba Dunlop

Free Women of Color from St. Croix 1831-1832. Is there anyone who can help me with the following translation of Danish words listed? I have a partial list of Free Women of Color from St. Croix 1831-1832. The records were obtained at National Archives and Records Admisnistration (NARA) II in College Park, MD. and are from Record Group (RG) 55. The handwriting is very difficult to read and some of the letters are not in the English alphabet,so here goes; 'Frihed legitimeres ved medfi'lgemde Document?" "Fosestec" ? "Opholpotep" ? "Omfrifost" ? "Frigiven" "Funno'bt"? "Ogtviet" "Ugivt" "Frommed og harnfra" ? (This column lists countries, including Africa) "Hvarlongo par Lamdett" ? The words name, "Navn" age, "Alper" and color "farvd" I was able to figure out from what was written in the column. If anyone researching St.Croix, is interested in the pages I copied, I'll be gld to send them to you directly. Andrea

Hi Tony and List....... I was trying to figure out why in heck half of this thread is ending up in my Delete Box......and I am giggling to myself because I just realized why. I get so many of those idiotic spams from Nigeria and Zambia and other African countries that I have a Message Rule to delete any emails with those countries named, and half of these emails were landing there. So I will have to check the Delete Box if this thread continues. (VBG) I don't have Ritchies back that far.....I have the husband of Edith Ritchie and his ancestry back to the early 1800's. I will have to check my FTM and see, but the 'family story' is that the Ritchies were supposed to be descended from a French Count (not true so far) whose name was Le Comte d'Eretier.......and if you find him, you will get a big prize coz I don't think he exists. Uncle Jack Ritchie told me that story and I have not found any Eretiers in Jamaica so far. Funny tho.......most of the handwritten trees that I have from the older generations for all the names I have in Jamaica ALL seem to have some sort of nobility as the original emigrant.......and so far NONE of them do. Just wishful thinking, I guess. I will take a look and let you know what I have.....but not much other than the pictures I sent you of Edith and Theophilus Figueroa. Heather > While we are on the subject of sharing, During rollcall, Heather, you mentioned you had the Ritchies back to the early 1800's. At the time I asked if you could share that info with me. As you know, your husband and I share a common greatgrandmother, Edith Isobel Ritchie. With all the viruses running rampant, I guess my request slipped through the cracks. The Ritchie name was carried forward in the Figueroa family as a middle nane for many of the decendants. For instant my Dad is Lloyd Vivian Ritchie Figueroa. I have a cousin who was named Anita Ritchie Figueroa. > Sadly my father did not pass that legacy to me. > So if you have any info beyond Edith Ritchie. I would ever so appreciate it if you would share it with me. > Thanks in advance. > By the way I have new info on Myrtle Figueroa, the surviving twin. > Tony Figueroa > >

I must say that I was quite happy to see the out-pourings on this topic, and just when I thought that the difference in opinion and knowledge was being handled amicably and politely, some-one uses the word "ill-informed" "pretends to be" rather than mis-informed or mistaken. Of course the writer of those words did offer an apology in advance. Sara of course has been quite honest about being a beginner and being willing to learn more about the subject, which is admirable. But we need also to be cautious about drawing conclusions about our ancestry based on what others may have observed about our physiognomy, or physical appearance. Such conclusions can only be limited to the observer's knowledge or stereo-type of the ethnicity of the people being matched to. The slaves generally came from West Africa and through Ghana but not all came from what is now Ghana. Most came from the hinterland to the North, East, and South of Ghana, correctly referred to as the slave coast because it was the coastal areas from whence the slaves were transported, but they were gathered from the directions mentioned above. I have personally met Ghanaians who fit the stero-type of a Ghanian, but I have met others who did not fit the stereo-type. I have met Ibos of Nigeria who did not look alike. I have met Zimbabwians and Kenyans who looked Ethiopian, and I have met some Ethiopians who did not fit the semitic stereo-type of Ethiopians, and what's more I have also seen a few documentaries in which whole villages did not fit the stere-type. I have seen West Indians who looked like Bantu and also like Congo pygmies, except that they were a bit taller. Tutsis are said to be Arab-Semitic-African and Hutus said to be African looking. And yet one can meet both groups, or see them in documentaries and be thoroughly confused as to who is who. I met people from Burundi and Rwanda who looked the stereo-type of African, who looked Hutu, and who said they were Tutsi and hated Hutus. I have met another who refused to identify himself as of either group, who said he was just Burundian, and that generally if one was rich one was Tutsi, and if poor Hutu. If they all were as enlightened as this person - that they were all Burundians - all the genocide might have been avoided. Could Africans further than Central Africa as far as East Africa, and further down to South Africa, and further up to North Africa, have ended up in the West Indies as slaves or even Jewish servants; or could even free Falasha Jews have ended up in the West Indies? All this is quite possible. All of the fore-going is possible if one remembers the African-Arab trading routes that criss-crossed North Africa and down the East African Coast. Jews were also world-wide traders, with settlements or quarters throughout the Arab world and settlements and trading posts in North and East Africa. Some might have even been on the trade routes to the West African coast. Since the stereo-type that we see of the Falashas could pass as an Arab/African mixture, if they acquired Swahili, they could in fact have so passed in trading for themselves, or for, and with, Jews. Could there have even been Jews who looked African and were African. Could there have been African slaves of Jews in the West Indies and North America, who were converted to Judaism and thus became Jews? All the fore-going is quite possible. Jews did convert others to Judaism, and others converted to Judaism. Could some of these traders have been seized upon by rivals and sold into slavery through West Africa? This is quite likely and possible. Being a Jew is not a race, it is a religion, and Jews have ended up in the most unlikely places, the descendants of whom had the vaguest idea of their ancestry. I read last year of "John the Jew" in Guyana. A Rabbi from the US had found him, and after questioning him, found that he had the vaguest of memories of Judaism. He was quite old, but had the memory that his father was Jewish, but could not prove it by any incantation learnt as a child, or any religious Jewish religious artifact. All he could remember that his father at times looked like a bird attempting to fly. This satisfied the Rabbi, who recognised the significance of the memory, and identified it as John's father putting on his robes and shawl before studying the scriptures and praying. Could some Falashas (Jews) have come from North Africa or Ethiopia to the West Indies? This is quite possible. But one cannot depend on a stereo-type identified by some-one in passing, and certainly not by one who says that all the African slaves in the Caribbean came from Ethiopia. One has to document all the above that I said was possible. I hope this helps. Richard ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dean de Freitas" <caribgw@bellsouth.net> To: <CARIBBEAN-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Monday, June 16, 2003 12:21 PM Subject: Re: MSNBC News Link: DNA tackles a familys mysteries > Hey folks, > > I need to say that I agree with Sara here. We have a lot of folks that come > to this list to learn more about a region and subject that is subject to > many misconceptions. It behooves us all to be patient and helpful in our > responses. > > Dean > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Sara Weiss" <ksara@tesco.net> > To: <CARIBBEAN-L@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Monday, June 16, 2003 3:11 PM > Subject: Re: MSNBC News Link: DNA tackles a familys mysteries > > > > if you know so much it would be good if you shared your knowledge > > in a way that was edifying, not in a way that PUTS DOWN? > > > ==== CARIBBEAN Mailing List ==== > For information on individual islands, research aids, island bulletin boards or history please visit the CaribbeanGenWeb project at > http://www.rootsweb.com/~caribgw/ > >

I had deliberately kept out of this discussion, as I did not care for the tone it was taking, but I must come to Russ Campbell's defence, as my reaction to some of the statements being put forward as fact was total disbelief. I think that if one is truly seeking knowledge, it is unwise to insist on conjecture as if it were proven fact, and even more unwise to attack those whose well-founded knowledge contradicts the fiction. Moreover, Russ did say in his message that he apologized in advance if he was mistaken, and that should have been more than enough apology; but he can hardly be blamed for wondering whether this was all a put on: remember we have had such an experience on this List earlier, so forgive us if we are sometimes sceptical about queries that seem excessively naïve. But enough already Re the topic of the slave trade, I would recommend yet another very useful book: "The Atlantic Slave Trade: A Census" by Philip D, CURTIN, 1969, University of Wisconsin Press, ISBN 0-299-05400; LC 69 17325, He deals with the difficult problem of how the numbers of slaves imported from Africa have been calculated. It is again clear from this work, that the vast majority of slaves came from West Africa: mainly from Senegambia, the Bight of Biafra, the Bight of Benin, the Gold Coast (i.e. Ghana) and so on, and a tiny percentage from Mozambique & Madagascar. [People also tend to forget that a great proportion of the slaves went to Brazil, not to North America, because of the Portuguese connection]. Anyone with a particular interest in the Transatlantic Slave Trade should not forget the numerous excellent books (& CDs) by David ELTIS, which should be relatively easy to find. Ernest

Hello all, I am trying to find out about Robert Dutton, a Quaker, who sailed to Antigua in 1722 and in 1725 for trade (presumably in sugar). We suppose he was lost at sea, but do not know for sure what happened to him. His widow married another man in 1736. Are there Quaker records for Antigua? Where else might I find out about Robert? I wonder if he died at Antigua or maybe at sea. If so, his death might be recorded somewhere? Also, am wondering if anyone might do a look up in any of their sources (or know where to tell me to look) for a Captain Dutton. ³Captain Dutton was listed as owning more than 10 acres of land in Barbados in 1638.² Finally, there was a Richard Dutton who was governor of Barbados about 1684. I am trying to find out when he was appointed and when he was replaced. George Fox had written a letter to the Governor of Barbados and visited the island in 1671. Who was governor in 1671? Richard Dutton had two daughters reportedly born in Barbados. One was named Philadelphia (b. 1687) and another daughter b. 1690. Other family members have reported to me that Richard was not well though of as he set policies designed to enrich himself and that he was sued. I would be thankful for any assistance. Carole Dutton Malisiak

Hi David, Thanks for replying on the Groome/Banks question of 1784. I think I might have a source if Edward Crawford is not able to enlighten us on the question. Thanks also for further info. on nutmeg cultivation and history, and to Chris for giving the O.K on a continuation. I had hoped for it to end on the Banks 1784 question, but I am glad that we can continue. I have some questions of my own. Since I have never seen a nutmeg tree, much more a grove of them, I wonder what could have caused such difficulties in the Caribbean when seeds or seedlings were procured? And some of the questions I have are these: How does the male trees fertilize the female trees? Is it by wind-blown pollenation or by insects? If by wind, do the male trees have to be planted in a particular spot in relation to the females, or just upwind of the females? If by insects, what kind? Can one identify male trees from female trees, and differentiate male and female seeds and seedlings? Does the fruit require ingestion by an animal to break-down the outer fruity part, and partially break-down the outer-surface of the seed, before it can be germinated? Do the fruits have to fall and decompose in the shade of the parent tree, and take root and germinate in the shade, or does it have to be propagated by animals passing the seeds out of their gastro-intestinal tract elswhere to give the seedlings a better chance for survival, (which they would not have in competing with many other seeds), or in the shade of the parents? Is brazing by a forest fire required to burn off the remants of fruit or part of the outer-surface of the seeds, before germination can begin? Do the trees have to planted in valleys, on the side of hills or between other species for shade? What kind of soil is required, acidic, neutral, alkaline, clay or loam? What kind of irrigation is required? I hope some-one on the list can answer some or all of these questions. Thanks. Richard. ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Watson" <family.watson@utoronto.ca> To: <CARIBBEAN-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Monday, June 16, 2003 9:05 AM Subject: Nutmeg - History - Grenada British Empire Sir Joseph Banks et al. > >Richard Allicock wrote > > >I was hoping to hear.... [from] David Watson on whether the crediting of > >Sir Joseph Banks with the introduction of the Nutmeg to Grenada in > >1784 was in Dr. Groome's book > > No, Banks wasn't credited by Groome. I think Groome would have if he had had > any evidence - in his small way he was a Banks of Grenada, and I think they > shared the same alma mater, and they certainly shared the same obsession > with natural history. > > I am wondering what this has to do with genealogy, but it seems to have > sparked an interest. I hope whoever is "in charge" will bear with us. > Nutmegs are so important to Grenada - like oil to Saudi Arabia. > > I've read a lot over the years about nutmeg agriculture, and I think we're > dealing with three things - why is everything in threes? > > - the general desperate desire, for science and profit, to grow spices. > People who did this in the beginning, couldn't match the expertise of the > Dutch. Lots of trials and lots of failures. It is actually quite tricky to > grow nutmegs, certainly in commercial quantities; that's hardly news to any > farmer. So we have an "introductory period" when plants went into the ground > and generally failed. > > - then, in Grenada, some managers go to Penang to assist with sugar > production, and they learn to cultivate nutmeg, they learn some secrets. > They bring back the nutmegs and the secrets and experiment. > > - lots of failures again, but they persevere and have a factor to help, > Thomson Hankey (that's the name of a company,) whose families have a produce > relationship with Grenada. I think we're now into the 1860s. > > - luck now plays a part, as does clever agricultural techniques. Some > pestilence in Indonesia, a good factor (Thomson Hankey,) smart planters (I'm > sure you are right, Richard, they were Scottish,) and away you go. You can > hardy believe your luck. > > That seems to have been four points, oh well. > > In 1955 hurricane Janet destroyed 80% of Grenada's nutmegs. But they bounced > right back, planting new trees and using the opportunity to improve the > planting techniques. Also, the marketing system of cooperatives in Grenada > has served all growers, large and small, over the years. > > How many of you on this list are interested in this esoteric discussion? > > David Watson > > > > ==== CARIBBEAN Mailing List ==== > Before posting a query, check to see if the question has already been asked on the List. All messages posted to CARIBBEAN-L are archived by date or thread at http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index/CARIBBEAN. You can search the archives at http://listsearches.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/listsearch.pl?list=CARIBBEAN. > >

Hi Chris, Thanks for the kind words of appreciation. Richard ----- Original Message ----- From: "christopher codrington" <chriscod@comcast.net> To: <CARIBBEAN-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Sunday, June 08, 2003 6:36 AM Subject: RE: Nutmeg - History - Grenada British Empire Sir Joseph Banks et al. > Hello Richard > > > I read with fascination your posting on Banks and nutmeg > > Banks was such a dynamic element in the planter economy and it is a pleasure > to read definitive information on his life and activities > None of us, studying genealogy or Carib history can reach a sense of the > time and place without knowing something of his influence on the times > > Thanks for a great posting > > Chriscod > > C.M. Codrington("american version # 1952) > Editor: Carib GenWeb "Historic Antigua and Barbuda" web-site > Co-Administrator: Carribean-L@rootsweb.com > Member: Barbados Museum Historical Society, > Museum of Antigua and Barbuda Historical and Archaeological Society. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Richard Allicock [mailto:richwyn@idirect.com] > Sent: Saturday, June 14, 2003 2:40 AM > To: CARIBBEAN-L@rootsweb.com > Subject: Nutmeg - History - Grenada British Empire Sir Joseph Banks et al. > > rsion: 6.0.489 / Virus Database: 288 - Release Date: 6/10/03 > > --- > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > Version: 6.0.489 / Virus Database: 288 - Release Date: 6/10/03 > > > > ==== CARIBBEAN Mailing List ==== > To unsubscribe from the list send the word "unsubscribe" (without the quotes) as the only text in the body of an email message to CARIBBEAN-L-request@rootsweb.com for the list mode or CARIBBEAN-D-request@rootsweb.com if you are subscribed to the digest. > >

Dear John W, Actually there were several places in the Caribbean that Hitler era Jewish refugees went. There were Jews gone to Havana Cuba, Sosua in the Dominican Republic, Port-au-Prince Haiti, Curacao and smaller numbers in other places. The majority of people with Jewish surnames in several Caribbean places are Sephardic but only if you are counting the now mostly colored Christian descendants of converts and half Jews. The Ashkenaz outnumber in terms of actual religious adherents in St. Thomas and Curacao for example. Ann I have have seen logbooks of slave voyages making stops in the Caribbean on their way to the mainland. It is incorrect to say that there was NO direct trade in slaves to the mainland or that their slaves were all seasoned first in the Caribbean. As far as only the unteachable of the slaves being offloaded in the Caribbean I have not heard that. There is a conceit among the people of the Caribbean that the masters there got first crack at the merchandise. The main reason for seasoning was health concern as to whether the individual slaves would live another few weeks in their own sewage. Susan, She was misinformed as to people from the Caribbean with Jewish descent being Falashas who are Ethiopians descended from pastorial slaves of Yemenite Jewish livestock traders. There was and is a colored community in Africa descended from slave and other traders from Europe. Some of them were indeed Jewish. The Islamic Hausa people found in northern Nigeria and adjoining states are also believed to be of East African Semitic descent. There seem to be a lot of Kente cloth blanket generalities

Sara....... I just went back over the masses of links that you were given and the posts and really......everyone was trying to help. I haven't had time myself to check them all out, but I will. I am not Jamaican.......I am a 5th generation Canadian of English and Scottish ancestry, so I have a lot to learn as well, which is why I suggested a discussion on the subject. I have never felt quite comfortable with Alex Haley's research and do remember that he acknowledged before he died that he took some 'poetic liberties' with it. So we all are learning from this discussion. There are no 'dumb questions'........only good answers. That is how we all learn, so don't think people were putting you down. We now all have the opportunity to check out these websites and form our own opinions. And that, my dear, is what the world of genealogy and life in general is all about......big grin!! Opinions and facts. And each of us interpret things slightly differently......coz we would be a boring lot if we all thought the same and agreed on everything. Best.......Heather > Thank you Dean > > While some have been very helpful, my enquiry amassed such a wealth of "I-know-u-know |(and-YOU-don't)" - equal, easily, to "Do-gooding". > > Yours has been the first GENTLE word given; I treasure it, and I bless you. > > Sara

I remember once being told that most of the slaves in the Caribbean came from Ghana. About two months ago, I saw a documentary on Public Television about the "Forts and Castles" of Ghana -- basically the buildings where the Africans were held before being taken onto ships to the Americas. If you see a listing for that film on your public television station, do try to catch it. Very moving, and very illuminating. Ghana is a beautiful country. -- ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ Diane Ingino Life is good. dti@nyc.rr.com ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~