""Ernest M. Wiltshire"" <murcot@synapse.net> skrev i en meddelelse news:000001c335a9$39709310$db29fea9@ibmw772yq25xnb... > Has anyone ever come across the name HANSCHELL in their research on the > Danish Virgin Islands? This is a prominent Barbados merchant family > which I am researching as one of my cousins married into it. Look at http://www.dkconsulateusvi.com/HDC/stCroix/trinity/trinity.html#Church%20#1 The text is: Church #1 "Sacred to the Memory of the Revd Hother Gustav Hanschell who departed this life on his passage to Europe on the 10th of May 1853. Aged 42 years. Blessed are the pure in heart for they shall see God Matth. V. 8. This tablet is erected by his congregation." Michael

I have just discovered that the above article has been available on the web at http://www.grenada-history.org/nutmeg.htm Those interested can read it in full by going to the above URL. David Watson

Bonjour Philippe, Merci pour cette information. Amicalement aline. CHARLES Aline : entraide-971@francegenweb.org coordinateur bénévole de l'EntraideFGW aux AD-971 le site http://www.francegenweb.org/entraide/ A bientôt. rossignolp@aol.com (RossignolP) wrote in message news:<20030619025129.12501.00000274@mb-m04.aol.com>... > Dans l'article <25840f05.0306160437.77f428ae@posting.google.com>, > s.charles@ool.fr (aline)a écrit : > > > > >Bonjour Monifa, > >Le nom de Famille ZINGUE en Guadeloupe ? > >Je vais regarder, mais je ne pense pas avoir déja vu de ZINGUE. > >A bientot Aline Charles. > > > > > >"Monifa" <monie4nothin@hotmail.com> wrote in message > >news:<vdl7chccakik1d@corp.supernews.com>... > >> Salut Aline. J'habite en la Rue. Thomas. La partie de ma recherche de > >> généalogie est la famille de ZINGUE de Rue. Barts. Je me demande s'il y > >> avait n'importe quel Zingue dans Guadeloupe? Ferait vous faites un me > >> cherche s'il vous plaît. Beaucoup apprécié, Monifa (la Rue. Thomas, les > >> Etats-Unis les Iles Vierges) > > > > Bonjour Aline et Monifa > Attention Rue Barth est une mauvaise traduction de S(tree)t Barth : St > Barthélemy (:-)))) > Cordialement > Philippe Rossignol

If anyone has any links to Canouan/Carriacou/Mustique/Mayreau/Petit Martinique, please let me know. I'm looking for the names Hazell, DeRoche,Compton, Snagg and Ollivierre. I have some background on the Snaggs and Comptons but the origin of the Deroches are eluding me. Also, I have reason to believe that my great great grandfather Henry George Hazell was born into slavery in 1831 in St Vincent. How would I find a list of plantations and their owners at the time? I know that his master was J.P. Hazell. I thought there was a registry of some sort in London. I hope this isn't going over old ground again, bu can I find this type of information there? Is the bag lady back from down south as yet? Cheryl Hazell _________________________________________________________________ The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail

Omar, Isnt there a st.croix or usvi site???? who is the administrator? let's get some new research material onto the site. regards, jason

Though you migh appreciate today's joke from Joke of the Day, totallyjewish.com Jewish Origin of High Tech Q. What English language edition of Chumash is ideal for the Computer Age: A. Hertz Edition Q What is the large print copy called? A. Mega Hertz Edition Q What is the large print edition of the Stone Chumash called? A. Mega-lith Edition Chumash Q How are they now distributed? A. As freeware: the five disks of Moses. Q. What is the most recently compiled edition of the Jewish Knowledge that help reconcile revelation at Sinia with the computer age? A. "Torah for Dummies" available on CD-Rambam. Q. Why do we blow the shofar on the day of rememberance? A. To recall the original ram memory. Q Why are we sure the computer was a Jewish invention? A. Every keyboard has a scroll key. Q. Why are we sure the Internet was a Jewish Invention? A. Because Jews are known of their large nodes and we have been talking about the promised LAN for over 3000 years... Sara ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ann Whiting" <aqw8326@hotmail.com> To: <CARIBBEAN-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2003 4:19 PM Subject: Re: Grace ___ Busby from Statia > Wel l Sara, > I guess I am a mutt of the world, I am black, white, free, slave, african, > puerto rican, english, french, danish, dutch, St. Tomian, jew, > anglican,yobora, catholic, moravian, but cute. > Ann > > > > > "Sharing the information." > Researching the USVI, St.Eustatius, St. Barts, Barbados > > > > > > ----Original Message Follows---- > From: "Sara Weiss" <ksara@tesco.net> > Reply-To: CARIBBEAN-L@rootsweb.com > To: CARIBBEAN-L@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: Grace ___ Busby from Statia > Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2003 10:42:14 +0100 > > Shalom Ann! - are you a Jewess from the Caribbean ? > > Sara (Weiss) > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Ann Whiting" <aqw8326@hotmail.com> > To: <CARIBBEAN-L@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2003 1:05 AM > Subject: Re: Grace ___ Busby from Statia > > > > Richard, > > I don't know about your branch, but I grew up on Gifilte fish, we called > > them fish balls, smoke herring ,Rasin, Black and Rye bread, Knishes, > Matzah > > wafers and lox on johnny cakes. To this day there is a box of wafers > next > > to my bed, to snack on when I am reading in bed. Our aunt Henrietta and > her > > family were Jews. > > Ann > > > > > > > > "Sharing the information." > > Researching the USVI, St.Eustatius, St. Barts, Barbados > > > > > > > > > > > > ----Original Message Follows---- > > From: RichardBond@webtv.net (Richard Bond) > > Reply-To: CARIBBEAN-L@rootsweb.com > > To: CARIBBEAN-L@rootsweb.com > > Subject: Grace ___ Busby from Statia > > Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2003 18:53:26 -0400 (EDT) > > > > We have the same oral tradition in our branch. > > I have mentioned it when visiting temples in describing my ancestry with > > Jewish friends and to my nieces and nephew whose father's family > > is Hungarian American Jewish. > > > > Whether she was entirely Jewish I do not know as there are stories > > indicating she too was part Asian. The probability due to those families > > claiming us as relatives through her is that she was. Indeed Grace seems > > from one of the Sephardic Jewish families that were then warehouse > > operators in Oranjestad. They were mostly constructed in the 1700s > > during the French and English War and the American Revolution boom > > years. That stopped with the British invasion under Rodney and Hood. > > They have slowly crumbled but were useful for cheap long term storage > > for many subsequent years. > > http://www.ecm.net/hsrj.de/statia/s60.jpg > > > > > > ==== CARIBBEAN Mailing List ==== > > The CARIBBEAN-L FAQ can be found at > > http://www.rootsweb.com/~caribgw/mailinglistfaq.htm. > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. > > http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail > > > > > > ==== CARIBBEAN Mailing List ==== > > Before posting a query, check to see if the question has already been > asked on the List. All messages posted to CARIBBEAN-L are archived by date > or thread at http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index/CARIBBEAN. You can > search the archives at > http://listsearches.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/listsearch.pl?list=CARIBBEAN. > > > > > > > ==== CARIBBEAN Mailing List ==== > For information on individual islands, research aids, island bulletin boards > or history please visit the CaribbeanGenWeb project at > http://www.rootsweb.com/~caribgw/ > > _________________________________________________________________ > Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. > http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail > > > ==== CARIBBEAN Mailing List ==== > For information on individual islands, research aids, island bulletin boards or history please visit the CaribbeanGenWeb project at > http://www.rootsweb.com/~caribgw/ >

With apologies to the list - two UK ISPs seem to be having fun and games. Sara, I have e-mailed you offlist. John Weiss

This is for John Weiss - I have been trying to send you photos at the e-mail address that came up on our address book from your e-mails, but they won't go through. I sent six and two have now gone but the message keeps coming back that the recipient has been rejected by the server - tesco.net? Can you please send you full e-mail address to me at ksara@tesco.net. Also, anyone who has entered this address in their address book - we are gonna change over to Telewest Broadband soon; I think it will then be Blueyonder. Will keep everyone posted. Sara ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dean de Freitas" <caribgw@bellsouth.net> To: <CARIBBEAN-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2003 4:21 PM Subject: Re: Grace ___ Busby from Statia > Sounds like a typical West Indian to me! > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Ann Whiting" <aqw8326@hotmail.com> > To: <CARIBBEAN-L@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2003 11:19 AM > Subject: Re: Grace ___ Busby from Statia > > > > Wel l Sara, > > I guess I am a mutt of the world, I am black, white, free, slave, african, > > puerto rican, english, french, danish, dutch, St. Tomian, jew, > > anglican,yobora, catholic, moravian, but cute. > > Ann > > > > > ==== CARIBBEAN Mailing List ==== > To unsubscribe from the list send the word "unsubscribe" (without the quotes) as the only text in the body of an email message to CARIBBEAN-L-request@rootsweb.com for the list mode or CARIBBEAN-D-request@rootsweb.com if you are subscribed to the digest. >

On second thoughts, Ann, I am also a mixture of races: not really white - have Jewish and black ancestors - also French, Russian, Polish, Welsh and a smattering of English. I WAS a Catholic for two years, many moons ago - even had to have dispensation from the Pope to get married to a Catholic guy. Did me no good at all, spiritually, emotionally, physically or monetarily. It certainly did not bring me nearer to Il Papa. But it did bring me nearer to G-d. I think I'm cute ! - (but not in the nasty way that people use when being sarcastic). And I am extremely interested in anthropology. Sara ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ann Whiting" <aqw8326@hotmail.com> To: <CARIBBEAN-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2003 4:19 PM Subject: Re: Grace ___ Busby from Statia > Wel l Sara, > I guess I am a mutt of the world, I am black, white, free, slave, african, > puerto rican, english, french, danish, dutch, St. Tomian, jew, > anglican,yobora, catholic, moravian, but cute. > Ann > > > > > "Sharing the information." > Researching the USVI, St.Eustatius, St. Barts, Barbados > > > > > > ----Original Message Follows---- > From: "Sara Weiss" <ksara@tesco.net> > Reply-To: CARIBBEAN-L@rootsweb.com > To: CARIBBEAN-L@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: Grace ___ Busby from Statia > Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2003 10:42:14 +0100 > > Shalom Ann! - are you a Jewess from the Caribbean ? > > Sara (Weiss) > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Ann Whiting" <aqw8326@hotmail.com> > To: <CARIBBEAN-L@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2003 1:05 AM > Subject: Re: Grace ___ Busby from Statia > > > > Richard, > > I don't know about your branch, but I grew up on Gifilte fish, we called > > them fish balls, smoke herring ,Rasin, Black and Rye bread, Knishes, > Matzah > > wafers and lox on johnny cakes. To this day there is a box of wafers > next > > to my bed, to snack on when I am reading in bed. Our aunt Henrietta and > her > > family were Jews. > > Ann > > > > > > > > "Sharing the information." > > Researching the USVI, St.Eustatius, St. Barts, Barbados > > > > > > > > > > > > ----Original Message Follows---- > > From: RichardBond@webtv.net (Richard Bond) > > Reply-To: CARIBBEAN-L@rootsweb.com > > To: CARIBBEAN-L@rootsweb.com > > Subject: Grace ___ Busby from Statia > > Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2003 18:53:26 -0400 (EDT) > > > > We have the same oral tradition in our branch. > > I have mentioned it when visiting temples in describing my ancestry with > > Jewish friends and to my nieces and nephew whose father's family > > is Hungarian American Jewish. > > > > Whether she was entirely Jewish I do not know as there are stories > > indicating she too was part Asian. The probability due to those families > > claiming us as relatives through her is that she was. Indeed Grace seems > > from one of the Sephardic Jewish families that were then warehouse > > operators in Oranjestad. They were mostly constructed in the 1700s > > during the French and English War and the American Revolution boom > > years. That stopped with the British invasion under Rodney and Hood. > > They have slowly crumbled but were useful for cheap long term storage > > for many subsequent years. > > http://www.ecm.net/hsrj.de/statia/s60.jpg > > > > > > ==== CARIBBEAN Mailing List ==== > > The CARIBBEAN-L FAQ can be found at > > http://www.rootsweb.com/~caribgw/mailinglistfaq.htm. > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. > > http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail > > > > > > ==== CARIBBEAN Mailing List ==== > > Before posting a query, check to see if the question has already been > asked on the List. All messages posted to CARIBBEAN-L are archived by date > or thread at http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index/CARIBBEAN. You can > search the archives at > http://listsearches.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/listsearch.pl?list=CARIBBEAN. > > > > > > > ==== CARIBBEAN Mailing List ==== > For information on individual islands, research aids, island bulletin boards > or history please visit the CaribbeanGenWeb project at > http://www.rootsweb.com/~caribgw/ > > _________________________________________________________________ > Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. > http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail > > > ==== CARIBBEAN Mailing List ==== > For information on individual islands, research aids, island bulletin boards or history please visit the CaribbeanGenWeb project at > http://www.rootsweb.com/~caribgw/ >

"Richard Bond" <RichardBond@webtv.net> skrev i en meddelelse news:28489-3EF0EF05-77@storefull-2114.public.lawson.webtv.net... > Lolland is a specific province of Holland and people from there are > called Lolliks someone named John from Lolland would be known as... Lolland is also the name of an island in southern part of Denmark. People from Lolland is called "lollikker" or "Lollaender" on danish. People from Holland or Nederland is on Dansih called "Hollaender". Michael

You sure are cute, Ann! Sara ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ann Whiting" <aqw8326@hotmail.com> To: <CARIBBEAN-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2003 4:19 PM Subject: Re: Grace ___ Busby from Statia > Wel l Sara, > I guess I am a mutt of the world, I am black, white, free, slave, african, > puerto rican, english, french, danish, dutch, St. Tomian, jew, > anglican,yobora, catholic, moravian, but cute. > Ann > > > > > "Sharing the information." > Researching the USVI, St.Eustatius, St. Barts, Barbados > > > > > > ----Original Message Follows---- > From: "Sara Weiss" <ksara@tesco.net> > Reply-To: CARIBBEAN-L@rootsweb.com > To: CARIBBEAN-L@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: Grace ___ Busby from Statia > Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2003 10:42:14 +0100 > > Shalom Ann! - are you a Jewess from the Caribbean ? > > Sara (Weiss) > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Ann Whiting" <aqw8326@hotmail.com> > To: <CARIBBEAN-L@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2003 1:05 AM > Subject: Re: Grace ___ Busby from Statia > > > > Richard, > > I don't know about your branch, but I grew up on Gifilte fish, we called > > them fish balls, smoke herring ,Rasin, Black and Rye bread, Knishes, > Matzah > > wafers and lox on johnny cakes. To this day there is a box of wafers > next > > to my bed, to snack on when I am reading in bed. Our aunt Henrietta and > her > > family were Jews. > > Ann > > > > > > > > "Sharing the information." > > Researching the USVI, St.Eustatius, St. Barts, Barbados > > > > > > > > > > > > ----Original Message Follows---- > > From: RichardBond@webtv.net (Richard Bond) > > Reply-To: CARIBBEAN-L@rootsweb.com > > To: CARIBBEAN-L@rootsweb.com > > Subject: Grace ___ Busby from Statia > > Date: Wed, 18 Jun 2003 18:53:26 -0400 (EDT) > > > > We have the same oral tradition in our branch. > > I have mentioned it when visiting temples in describing my ancestry with > > Jewish friends and to my nieces and nephew whose father's family > > is Hungarian American Jewish. > > > > Whether she was entirely Jewish I do not know as there are stories > > indicating she too was part Asian. The probability due to those families > > claiming us as relatives through her is that she was. Indeed Grace seems > > from one of the Sephardic Jewish families that were then warehouse > > operators in Oranjestad. They were mostly constructed in the 1700s > > during the French and English War and the American Revolution boom > > years. That stopped with the British invasion under Rodney and Hood. > > They have slowly crumbled but were useful for cheap long term storage > > for many subsequent years. > > http://www.ecm.net/hsrj.de/statia/s60.jpg > > > > > > ==== CARIBBEAN Mailing List ==== > > The CARIBBEAN-L FAQ can be found at > > http://www.rootsweb.com/~caribgw/mailinglistfaq.htm. > > > > _________________________________________________________________ > > Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. > > http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail > > > > > > ==== CARIBBEAN Mailing List ==== > > Before posting a query, check to see if the question has already been > asked on the List. All messages posted to CARIBBEAN-L are archived by date > or thread at http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index/CARIBBEAN. You can > search the archives at > http://listsearches.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/listsearch.pl?list=CARIBBEAN. > > > > > > > ==== CARIBBEAN Mailing List ==== > For information on individual islands, research aids, island bulletin boards > or history please visit the CaribbeanGenWeb project at > http://www.rootsweb.com/~caribgw/ > > _________________________________________________________________ > Add photos to your e-mail with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. > http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail > > > ==== CARIBBEAN Mailing List ==== > For information on individual islands, research aids, island bulletin boards or history please visit the CaribbeanGenWeb project at > http://www.rootsweb.com/~caribgw/ >

Jason, I have Brewster, Busby, who came to St. Croix about the same time as Gov. Heyliger, from Stacia, McBean, Clendenin, Hewitt, Dyer, Bryan, Petersen, Saunders, Hendricks, My St. Thomas people Adams, Benjamin, Francis, Monsanto, Simmons, Quetel, Gereau, Christian, Francois, DelVallie, Jarvis, and those are the ones off the top of my head. I am trying to find the census' for 1860-1911, My faternal frandfather died sometime before 1917, so he does not show on the census, his wife does not show either, but I think that she did not give up her danish citizenship at the transfer. Let me know if you want the maps and list Ann "Sharing the information." Researching the USVI, St.Eustatius, St. Barts, Barbados ----Original Message Follows---- From: Jnlnjack@aol.com Reply-To: CARIBBEAN-L@rootsweb.com To: CARIBBEAN-L@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: Estate two friends on St.Croix Date: Thu, 19 Jun 2003 01:42:27 EDT Ann, I have read every book that I could find in NYC on early St.Croix history/genealogy. I thank you for the email. I am still looking for the elusive key bit of info to take me to the next island back. I have Heyliger, Richardson and dewindt genealogies. I have copies of the beck map and the earlier map that he copied his from. I have some of the early tax list info. I have bits of property info. I have plantation histories, etc. I guess I have been off the topic for a while and am rusty. At some point I will go thru my file boxes and organize the st.croix files. I need to put them online. Do you know Heather Nielsen? She has been very helpful to me this past year. I have quite a bit of posts on the various lists that are for st.croix genealogy. The 300 person list you mentioned is the one from 1767 or so? I have that one, thanks. Perhaps we could compare notes sometime. What are your surnames for the early 1700s? Mine are heyliger, Ruan, Gumbs, DeWindt, Richardson, BArnes, etc. regards, Jason Carpenter ==== CARIBBEAN Mailing List ==== Before posting a query, check to see if the question has already been asked on the List. All messages posted to CARIBBEAN-L are archived by date or thread at http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index/CARIBBEAN. You can search the archives at http://listsearches.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/listsearch.pl?list=CARIBBEAN. _________________________________________________________________ Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail

David thanks regards dennis ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Watson" <family.watson@utoronto.ca> To: <CARIBBEAN-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Thursday, June 19, 2003 5:27 PM Subject: Gavin Smith - Grenada Estate Surveys > Off list some of us are trying to identify Gavin Smith's surveys of the > estates of Grenada. We think there are more than one, and would ask anybody > with information, to contact us, either on or off list, with details. > > > A little snippet for interest: > - - - - - - - > Transcript from: > Source: The Grenada Handbook and Directory 1946 > 1801 [Year] > Governor Green went on leave of absence on June 8, 1801, and > Lieutenant-Governor Houston, who was to have relieved him, not having > arrived, the President of the Council, the Rev. Samuel Dent, assumed the > Government. York House and the copyright of Mr. Gavin Smith's map of Grenada > were purchased in the course of the year; the flaws of the latter purchase > appear, even at this early date, to have attracted attention, for we find > complaints that the actual details of some of the properties would not "fit > in" with the map. > - - - - - - - > > We don't need the names or the proprietors. We would just like to nail down > the dates of the surveys. > > We hope to expand the information. Pre-1838 locations in Grenada, at least > in "the country," by which I mean away from St George's, which is pretty > well everywhere, are all about estates. Even post-1838, the villages took > the names of the close estates. > > So, we're hoping we can add a little to c1838, and before and after, info on > place names and family names. > > Of course, if there is any other relevant info on estate or place names, > please let us know. > > Dennis, I've not forgotten you. > > David Watson > family.watson@utoronto.ca > > > > ==== CARIBBEAN Mailing List ==== > To unsubscribe from the list send the word "unsubscribe" (without the quotes) as the only text in the body of an email message to CARIBBEAN-L-request@rootsweb.com for the list mode or CARIBBEAN-D-request@rootsweb.com if you are subscribed to the digest. > >

OK, so I was confused a Dutch couple I was on the bus with in Mexico said that a village we stopped at remindd them of Lolland However if you read the question carefully and were from St. Thomas you would recognize the answer as the name of an island off the north shore...Hans Lollik http://hummingbirdshome.com/images/hanslollik.jpg

Richard Bond wrote: June 18, 2003 > Well we still do not know what they started with for Turobunsingh. The > Indians I have asked so far do not recognize Turobun. The above was just > a guess. > > In looking at the garbling of British and Danish virgin Islands > surnames in Puerto Rican civil records I got the impression that some of > the results might have been influenced by the absence of teeth. > > An example of an attached honorary prefix can be found in Seepersad > which I think is taken from Sri Prasad. *********** My Reply: Turobunsingh is probably from Tooru + Boon-sing. You might want to ask your Indian friends about this and get back to me. I have my suspicions on this name. I would like to see if they can confirm my suspicions. I think you may also be quite right on Seepersaud from Sri + Prasad. I have long thought the same. One name I also checked out with Indians - which they could not elucidate - was a name I found apparently spelt Gaiina. If you think you or any-one on the list can figure it out let me know. Thanks.

Dean wrote: (16/06/03) "From what I have read, the Hindu festivals were permitted in Trinidad, althought there were instances where the activities got out of control. I'll try to look up a specific example." Hi Dean, Thanks for confirming the role of the Presbyterians in Trinidad. In relation to the above, the same was the case in Biritsh Guiana. As you can imagine, such festivals and their outcome did involve the "disturbance of the peace" as it occasioned much use of alcohol and Bhang or Ganja. A good excuse to bann or limit them. One thing that was banned was the use of the Tadja Drum for obvious reasons. This is a huge drum that makes a booming noise. If there was something to disturb the peace of the country-side, that drumming was one. African drumming had long been banned for its communicative and conspiracy potential, so the banning of this and that cultural activities or their limitation was nothing new. You know the old joke about the Golden Rule? "He who has the gold makes the rules". Looking forward to your examples in the case of Trinidad and from others in relation to the other Islands. Thanks. Richard

Dean wrote: (16/06/03) "From what I have read, the Hindu festivals were permitted in Trinidad, althought there were instances where the activities got out of control. I'll try to look up a specific example." Hi Dean, Thanks for confirming the role of the Presbyterians in Trinidad. In relation to the above, the same was the case in Biritsh Guiana. As you can imagine, such festivals and their outcome did involve the "disturbance of the peace" as it occasioned much use of alcohol and Bhang or Ganja. A good excuse to bann or limit them. One thing that was banned was the use of the Tadja Drum for obvious reasons. This is a huge drum that makes a booming noise. If there was something to disturb the peace of the country-side, that drumming was one. African drumming had long been banned for its communicative and conspiracy potential, so the banning of this and that cultural activities or their limitation was nothing new. You know the old joke about the Golden Rule? "He who has the gold makes the rules". Looking forward to your examples in the case of Trinidad and from others in relation to the other Islands. Thanks. Richard ----- Original Message ----- From: "Dean de Freitas" <caribgw@bellsouth.net> To: <CARIBBEAN-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Monday, June 16, 2003 6:06 AM Subject: Re: East Indian Indenture Immigration W.I. /St. Vincent Presbyterian Church. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Richard Allicock" <richwyn@idirect.com> > To: <CARIBBEAN-L@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Monday, June 16, 2003 2:45 AM > Subject: Re: East Indian Indenture Immigration W.I. /St. Vincent > Presbyterian Church. > > > <SNIP> > > And yet boys will be boys, and it was much to chagrin of the missionaries, > > when the young children and young adults started tagging along behid the > > Hindus when they celebrated their Festivals. Very soon certain festivals > > were banned, for being disruptive to the work schedule on the > > Estates/Plantations, but one also suspects also for the exhibition of > > Heathenism. > <SNIP> > > From what I have read, the Hindu festivals were permitted in Trinidad, > althought there were instances where the activities got out of control. > I'll try to look up a specific example... > > <SNIP> > > It is also not surprisising that it was the Canadian Presbyterians that > led > > the way. It was also this group of Prebyterians that did much to > > Christianise and educate a significant number of East Indians to produce > an > > anglicised East Indian middle class in British Guiana. > <SNIP> > > The Canadian Presbyterians were quite successful in Chritianising the East > Indians in Trinidad as well. They set up schools etc., and it wasn't long > before the most fervent evangelists in Trinidad were themselves Indians. > > > > ==== CARIBBEAN Mailing List ==== > Before posting a query, check to see if the question has already been asked on the List. All messages posted to CARIBBEAN-L are archived by date or thread at http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index/CARIBBEAN. You can search the archives at http://listsearches.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/listsearch.pl?list=CARIBBEAN. > >

Hi Tim, Are the observations below records of the Presbyterian Church? Let me know thanks. Richard Sent: Sunday, June 15, 2003 11:37 PM > I have just 2 observations to add to this thread. I have gone over > the parish records in St. Patrick's Grenada from 1860 to 1931 as they > exist on the LDS microfilms. Concerning East Indians in the latter > part of the 19th: in the 1870s and 1880s about 50% of the baptisms > were for East Indian children and adults; the reason that I know this > is that the parish records clearly label these people as either > "coolie" or "native of Calcutta" or something similar. > Sent: Sunday, June 15, 2003 11:37 PM

Hi Chris, Thanks the encouraging words and for your contribution to the topic. Never mind the limitations of the moment. Looking forward to your continued contributions. Best regards, Richard ----- Original Message ----- From: "christopher codrington" <chriscod@comcast.net> To: <CARIBBEAN-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Wednesday, June 11, 2003 7:11 AM Subject: RE: East Indian Indenture Immigration W.I. Names > Hi Richard > > I have not read your posting in full but you have brought up several > intriguing issues which are very pertinent to carib gen and learning in > general. There is only one which at this time I can respond to and that is > you interest in the variability of language and spelling. > > London standard did not exist until 1920 or thereabouts. Spelling was > entirely phonetic and very regional. I have always dreamt of what it might > have sounded like on Antigua in 1741 with Scotsmen and Irishmen and > Englishmen and dutch and Spaniards all occupying the same island trying to > mak a killing at raising sugar or in your case .....nutmeg. My family, who > left Antigua in 1741 to take on free lands in Jamaica, eventually grew > arrowroot and were apparently very successful at it, but by that time there > was already a movement towards uniform spelling. No doubt some of this > evolved from the consistent travel of mail and correspondence although I > have no cogent knowledge of a connection between one evolution and the > other. I regret that I cannot indulge the list and yourself in more of this > stuff but until my hand gets better it is impossible to type at length. > > I enjoy your postings and hope you will continue to grace us with your > ponderings > > ChrisCod > > C.M. Codrington("american version # 1952) > Editor: Carib GenWeb "Historic Antigua and Barbuda" web-site > Co-Administrator: Carribean-L@rootsweb.com > Member: Barbados Museum Historical Society, > Museum of Antigua and Barbuda Historical and Archaeological Society. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Richard Allicock [mailto:richwyn@idirect.com] > Sent: Tuesday, June 17, 2003 10:36 PM > To: CARIBBEAN-L@rootsweb.com > Subject: East Indian Indenture Immigration W.I. Names > > Some-one pointed out that Indian names could also be formed by adding two > names together, like Bhagat+Singh to get Bhagatsingh. This is quite true. I > did not want to deal with this until we had gotten further into the history > of East Indians in the British Colonies in the West Indies, as we were > talking about Anglicisation and Creolisation of the names. The above example > is more appropriate to observe outside of the process or situation of > Anglicisation in which we will find more of the fracture of previously > compounded names. > > I am also interested in this process not for academic purposes but also > practical ones for genealogical purposes. In the absence of so much records, > and also in some cases the presence of too many records, as in the case of > too many persons with the same names, I am interested in being aware of the > process of Anglicisation/Creolisation for the clues that names can give on > the whereabouts of persons and in a situation where dating them might be > ambiguous.. > > An indentured immigrant person could arrive with a name spelt one way on the > ships manifest, arrrive on a plantation and imediately or within a few years > have their name spelt slightly differently, depending upon who made the > initial record and who kept the records for the next five and later three > years. Some-one might even move to another plantation after one contract > expired and get their name again spelt differently, by Englishmen, Scotsmen, > Irish, and even Welsh and Cornish men, (all with their various county and > regional accents) and not to forget the East Indian "Drivers" "Headmen" > themselves. All of the foregoing would have a different ear, different > levels of familiarity to East Indian names, different levels of education, > different ways of spelling even in English. Then one can have one's children > start attending schools and churches and have the names spelt variously yet > again. And the orthographic and phonetic abilities of the recordists would > also change over ti! > me from one generation to another. > > Names can give clues in terms of Anglicisation and non-Anglicisation. > Anglicised names tell us that the person in question was in a situation of > Anglicisation and in a period of Anglicisation. The anglicising situations > are of course on the plantations and in the schools and churches. The > process of anglicisation would be more relevant to people who will later > move off the plantation and into the towns and villages of the British and > Creoles. On the plantations the sheer force of numbers and community > pressure would serve slow the process of Anglicisation/Creolisation beyond > initial name changes. Once the East Indians on the Plantations started to be > able to better "staff" their communities with arrivals of Pandits/Pundits > and Moulvis from India and later Pakistan or other colonies, the name > changes would revert in many instances to what was common "back-home". But > this would mostly affect new births and fore-names rather than surnames. And > we also get more Hindu and Muslim ! > names as fore-names for those religious groups, but a mixture or "Indian" > and English and purely English fore-names for the Christian East Indians. > > We also have to add the fact that many East Indians did not take opportunity > for educating their children the way that the Creoles and Chinese did. > Also, we should take into account that it was not until close to the turn of > the 1900 that the male - female ratio was equalised and stable families were > becoming the norm. This meant increasing pressure to school one's children > and prepare them for on or off plantation jobs. So even for the > on-plantation East Indians, the pressure for Anglicisation was growing, with > ultimately movement to the towns and villages, where they would likely be > taught by anglicised creole teachers. This pressure increased dramatically > after the cessation of Indentureship/Immigration in 1930, and with the > prospect of Independence after 1953. Between these two water-shed years the > East Indian Community would produce their own Anglicised teachers thus > furthering the process of Anglicisation, and the promotion and retention of > anglicised names. Later suc! > h teachers and students would even found their own schools. > > The legal requirement that birth, marriages and deaths be registered with > the Registrar-General would further serve to fix name changes in whatever > form it was registered, (anglicised and non-anglicised), and that again can > give clues to the degree of anglicisation of the parties concerned. > > The need to produce documents for legal and business purposes - land and > other property records, taxes etc., - for schooling one's children, for > travel etc. would again fix names. > > But then we also have to consider the recording of Censuses, and when the > recording of names would be recorded by some-one else, we are back to > phonetics, how the name appears to sound to some-one's ear. After general > schooling people (especially the younger rather than older) could at least > spell their own names, so the recording of names would get better after the > 1960's. > > > All of these factors can give clues as to who was writing the names and in > what period or even situation. > > English itself was not generally standardised until after 1876 with the > Education Act that made education compulsory for school age children. Before > that it was the English Translation of the Latin Bible that did a great deal > to standardise written English. Before that it was London English that was > the ideal of English speech, for business purposes, but the writing could be > idiosyncratic until after 1876, and based phonetically on regional accents > and level of education of the writer. > > By the time we get to the indenture and immigration of East Indians in the > 1840's, the British had been in India via the British East India Company > going on two and half centuries. From (1600-1773) the BEI Co.; from 1773 UK > parliamentary control via a Governor-General. > > By the 1840's the British Army had already standardised the way that Indian > names from all the different languages of the recruits should be spelt or > transliterated to be more precise. > > But before that we got: > > "A dictionary English and Hindostany : to which is annexed a copious and > useful alphabetical list of proper names of men, women, towns, cities, > rivers, provinces, countries &c. a great majority of which appear to be of > Persian, Arabic or Indian origin." Vol.2 > > by Henry Harris, Surgeon, Madras Army (1759-1822), Madras : printed for the > author, 1790, 345p. appx. of proper names, > > Vol. 1 (containing a grammar) never printed, titled: Guide to the > Orthography of Indian Proper Names with a list showing the true spelling of > all post towns and villages in India. > > Printed by William Wilson Hunter, Calcutta,187,pp.146. Office of the > Superintendent of Govt. > > > By the 1870's we get: > > > > "The duty of English-speaking Orientalists in regard to united action in > adhering generally to Sir William Jones's Principles of Transliteration, > especially in that case of Indian Languages : with a proposal for promoting > a Uniform International Method of Transliteration so far at least as may be > applicable to Proper Names." > > By Monier Monier-Williams, 1870, 21p. > > I do not know if it was published because there is a note at head of page: > "Rough proof, not yet ready for printing off". > > > And: > > "A Guide to the Orthography of Indian Proper Names with a list showing the > true spelling of all post towns and villages in India." > > By William Wilson Hunter, British Academy London. > > Calcutta, 1871, 146 p. Office of the Superintendent of Govt. Author. > > > And: > > "Indian Domestic Economy and Receipt Book, with Hindustanee romanized names > ... Eighth edition, revised. > > By Robert Flower Riddell > > Calcutta : Thacker, Spink & Co. 1877, 596 p. > > > By 1917 it seems that there was still a need to deal with Arabic and Persian > based names, and hence this is relevant to the way in which Muslim names may > have been spelt from c. 1870, or before, allowing for the time-lag between > practice and formalisation. > > So we get: > > > "The British academy transliteration of Arabic and Persian; report of the > committee appointed to draw up a practical scheme for the > transliteration into English of words and names belonging to the languages > of the Nearer East." > > By H. Milford, > > Oxford university press 1917? 17 p. Published for the British Academy, > London. > > > > Notes: From the Proceedings of the British academy, vol. VIII. > > Preface signed, C. J. L. stated that: The system "practically agrees with > that adopted more than fifty years ago by the government of India for > place-names in official use and for the names of soldiers in the Indian > army, with such minor modifications as experience from time to time showed > to be desirable." > > > The above references, I think would be useful for seeing how the names would > have been transliterated before and after the East Indian Indentured > Immigrants got to the British Colonies. > > I hope all the above makes a further contribution to the Topic. > > Richard > > > ==== CARIBBEAN Mailing List ==== > To unsubscribe from the list send the word "unsubscribe" (without the > quotes) as the only text in the body of an email message to > CARIBBEAN-L-request@rootsweb.com for the list mode or > CARIBBEAN-D-request@rootsweb.com if you are subscribed to the digest. > > --- > Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > Version: 6.0.489 / Virus Database: 288 - Release Date: 6/10/03 > > --- > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > Version: 6.0.489 / Virus Database: 288 - Release Date: 6/10/03 > > > > ==== CARIBBEAN Mailing List ==== > Before posting a query, check to see if the question has already been asked on the List. All messages posted to CARIBBEAN-L are archived by date or thread at http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index/CARIBBEAN. You can search the archives at http://listsearches.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/listsearch.pl?list=CARIBBEAN. > >

Hello ANN and JASON: I really think that there should be a website where all of that information can be posted. Those are such vaualbe information. omar