I stumbled upon this mention buried in a 1995 interview with a man from Cape Fear, NC, named Kenneth Sprunt. (I could not tell why the interview was done or posted online.) "Well going back to my grandparents, my grandfather was the son of Alexander Sprunt who was one of two brothers who came to this country back in the early- to mid-1800s, their having two boys, Alexander, my great-grandfather, and his brother, James Mensey Sprunt. They went down to Barbados and they invested their little bit of money in real estate. At that time, almost coincidentally, the British government freed the slaves and . . . these boys were really wiped out. Alexander went on back to Scotland where they came from, and James Mensey asked about to find out where a good place to make a living was. They said Boston, Massachusetts. So he got on a packet to Boston and it broke down at Cape Fear, North Carolina, so he put in to Wilmington. Didn’t have but very little money and he hired himself out as a tutor. In the meantime he established himself and he wrote his brother in Scotland and got him to come over to Wilmington and that’s how we sort of got here. That was back in the mid-1800s." Seems that some people were just in the Caribbean briefly, and often, nobody has any clue what happened to them. Serendipity rules! Hope someone can connect. Best, Laura Alderson

> What interesting contributions to this thread from Cod, Handler, > etc. All very elucidating. > Though oral history is sometimes flawed, it can encompass traces of > the truth and give clues where none come from more authoritative > documentation. My St. Croix family's "13 girls" turned out to be an > orphanage in Upstate New York where my St. Croix g-g-grandmother > taught the Sabbath School. So there are often threads that run true, > if one can sort them out. Bottom line: Listen to the oral history, wonder about it--and play your hunches! Then hunt for decent documentation. Cheers, Laura

Hi Laura As I understand it there are two main possibilities. One is to trace a direct male line, the Y-DNA; the other is a direct female line, the Mitochondrial DNA. The lines must be direct. I had my Y-DNA tested but in a group in conjunction with a number of other people with the same surname. We have managed to find some close [in DNA terms] relatives and in my case one of them had sufficient information that we were able to determine where and roughly when we last had a common ancestor. However I still have a gap of about 100-200 years which we have not yet been able to fill - though we live in hopes as more and more people are persuaded to join in our 'Group'. Eventually we hope that the missing links will appear. I joined the Oliver group and we used http://www.FamilyTreeDNA.com. I cannot remember exactly how much it cost though I am certain it was a lot less than $293! - there was a group rate too of course. We went step by step - getting 'marker matches'. In my case 12, then slowly up to 67 marker matches. The closer the number of matches the closer the relationship with the other person. You pay a bit more each time but you can estimate the likelihood of that extra step being successful from the match you have and the relationships that throws up. I assume, but dont know, that the Mitochondrial DNA works in a similar way. Unfortunately we do not have an unbroken female line There was a discussion on DNA in 2006 on caribbean-rootsweb which I kept and can forward if you like. In my case I would say its be very useful but not earth shattering! though it was earth shattering for someone in my group who thought he had come from Italy whereas it turned out to be Scotland. It will give you the main grouping[s] from which you come but it does not tell you about your exact racial mix I dont think. Your best bet I guess would be to contact FamilyTreeDNA, or whoever, and ask them directly. Do remember there has to be an unbroken direct line. And to get names as such you are better in a group which is likely to be more useful. If you want to read up on the theory etc I can you send you more links but the FamilyTreeDNA site gives one a lot of info. They were efficient and it was very easy but it did take a while to get the results - BTW you can look at mine if you wish? kind regards Richard ----- Original Message ----- From: <lalderson@nc.rr.com> To: "Caribbean List" <caribbean@rootsweb.com> Sent: Tuesday, October 06, 2009 3:21 PM Subject: [Carib] DNA question > Speaking of tracing one's name, I wonder if someone can help me > understand DNA's use in genealogy. For example, Ancestry.com charges > $239 for the most expensive DNA testing, but I don't get what it will > tell us. (This is for males, by the way, and my St. Croix heritage is > the female line). Is there a DNA project for West Indies, by any > chance? > > Cheers, > Laura > > > > *************************** > The Caribbean List now has a Resources Page at Historic Antigua and > Barbuda http://www.rootsweb.com/~atgwgw/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > CARIBBEAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Speaking of tracing one's name, I wonder if someone can help me understand DNA's use in genealogy. For example, Ancestry.com charges $239 for the most expensive DNA testing, but I don't get what it will tell us. (This is for males, by the way, and my St. Croix heritage is the female line). Is there a DNA project for West Indies, by any chance? Cheers, Laura

Yes, Arawak is a linguistic term, like "French." ?It is my understanding that the "Caribs" of St. Vincent, and possibly Dominica as well, actually speak an Arawakan dialect, with some Carib words, due to the fact they are descended from mostly male Carib invaders and Arawak women. ?People speaking Arawakan languages lived as far North as Cuba, at one time. ?Both the Carib and Arawak speakers were relatively recent migrants from the Orinoco basin. -----Original Message----- From: Ernest M. Wiltshire <murcot@synapse.net> To: caribbean@rootsweb.com Sent: Mon, Oct 5, 2009 3:08 pm Subject: Re: [Carib] Fw: Oral History & Caribbean Geneologies? Jerry Handler has reprimanded me (below) for the error of my ways: I hang my head in shame! Ernest "...Barbados was settled in 1627,not 1637 (obviously a typo), the amerindians in Dominica are not Arawaks, but the descendants of so-called Caribs, and people speaking Arawakan languages live in Guyana...there is no such thing as an Arawak ethnic group...sorry, to be so anthropological about this"... *************************** The Caribbean List now has a Resources Page at Historic Antigua and Barbuda http://www.rootsweb.com/~atgwgw/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to CARIBBEAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

For instance, almost all Irish names of French origin (and there are a lot of them, including pretty much everything beginning with "Fitz" which is a bastardization of the French "fils de") are basically 'slave names,' because the Normans imposed the feudal system on Ireland and turned the peasants into serfs, and the serfs often took on the name of their lords, in Ireland and elsewhere in Europe. ? The Irish originally didn't have surnames, just patronymics, and this was true of a lot of Northern Europe, and is still true today in Iceland, where nobody has family names because they keep to the tradition. Also, many of the names we think of as East European Jewish are just the names of the towns or provinces Jews happened to live in when the Prussian censustakers came by. ?They typically didn't carry surnames but the census forms required them, so they became Gunzberg, or Dresdener or Posener etc. ? My ggrandmother from Bequia's name, it turns out, is Polish Jewish and was the original name of a village in Lithuania. ?By the time the name came down to my grandmother, it had been distorted into an Italian-sounding name which took me 20 years to sort out. Anyhow, the farther back you look the more you realize nobody can trace their lineage very well, and names are pretty arbitrary.

Wow Cod... This is well observed and written Sir. I must admit I have come to some of the same conclusions while peering ingot the past at Microfiche... to look at the signatures/entries and wishing the pages could speak a little more to you. Yvonne aka, Cuzin' Choli -----Original Message----- From: caribbean-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:caribbean-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of C.M. Codrington Sent: Monday, October 05, 2009 5:44 PM To: caribbean@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [Carib] Fw: Oral History & Caribbean Geneologies? Thanks to Ernest, Dorothy and Prof Handler for the reality check. I kinda get a head of steam on when I read some of the stuff being ascribed to oral history these days and to threads like ""what we have learned about our "surname" in Jamaica"" (rhetorically here) Oral history has it's place. There is some very scary online Gen being done based on nothing more than assumption. When I read the baptismal lists for certain parishes in Jamaica where several hundred people were baptized the same month two points come to fore: That sadly for many this would be as far as they are likely to get and 2. that the common assumptions about slave naming practices must be viewed very sceptically and thus may not be relied on to support undocumented paternity etc. I know for a fact that there may be Codringtons who are afro/euro distant cousins, but that the name was used liberally with no regard for paternity at all and most often Not on a Codrington plantation. I think the break in lineage is one of the most haunting legacies of Slavery though there are success stories. But it occurred to me the other day that europeans may point to similar breaks prior to surname use due to a variety of violent incursions be they Roman, Frank, Hun, Goth, and though all come into play in following bloodlines, prior to surnames, any disruption causing people to shift location would render tracing any sort of true line very very dicey (with the exception of Royals and Nobles). And lower caste Europeans were only becoming properly traceable perhaps a hundred years prior to the settlement of Barbados! Of course they are not comparable to the effect of the African Diaspora by any means. Another thing I think abit sad is due to the passion associated with slavery many on the Jamaica lists obviously do not do regional study which necessarily requires studying landowners, Planter records, wills land documents etc. "Planter's History" can often yield material helpful to their research and in fact may be the only solid data available. Sadly the majority of documentation such as plantation ledger books, merchant/planter correspondence etc is only fragmentary and much that survives is still dispersed such as to be nearly as good as lost. Most of it is not easily accessible to regular folk. A couple months back I was lurking on the Jamaica Board watching interaction regarding the "Jamaican" name of Neufville. Not one person had taken any time to notice what the concentration of Neufvilles in particular parts of Portland parish,Ja might suggest. They had not learned of the plantation history of the area, or done any work in the parish registers to learn european Neufvilles had owned substantial plantations in these areas. As a result, the name was used often in slave baptisms, and there were (most likely) children of mixed heritage. Were any noted in the registers as Neufvilles? Or were they noted in wills and legacies? Or were the majority of Neufvilles baptized on adjacent properties by whim desire or lack of a better idea? I heard no one applying such methods. But one guy posted this HUGE file claiming to have everybody related and laid out neat. Right This is one case where the question "what's in a name" is one hell of a question.. Or should we say the Caribbean is a place where "what's in a name" is the beginning of a journey, not necessarily the one you intend! And I think wherever it takes you, you emerge a richer person for it. ChrisCod -----Original Message----- From: caribbean-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:caribbean-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Ernest M. Wiltshire Sent: Monday, October 05, 2009 4:09 PM To: caribbean@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [Carib] Fw: Oral History & Caribbean Geneologies? Jerry Handler has reprimanded me (below) for the error of my ways: I hang my head in shame! Ernest "...Barbados was settled in 1627,not 1637 (obviously a typo), the amerindians in Dominica are not Arawaks, but the descendants of so-called Caribs, and people speaking Arawakan languages live in Guyana...there is no such thing as an Arawak ethnic group...sorry, to be so anthropological about this"... *************************** The Caribbean List now has a Resources Page at Historic Antigua and Barbuda http://www.rootsweb.com/~atgwgw/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to CARIBBEAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.420 / Virus Database: 270.14.3/2413 - Release Date: 10/05/09 06:19:00 _____ I am using the Free version of SPAMfighter <http://www.spamfighter.com/len> . We are a community of 6 million users fighting spam. SPAMfighter has removed 1113 of my spam emails to date. The Professional version does not have this message. No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.420 / Virus Database: 270.14.3/2413 - Release Date: 10/05/09 06:19:00 *************************** The Caribbean List now has a Resources Page at Historic Antigua and Barbuda http://www.rootsweb.com/~atgwgw/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to CARIBBEAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Thanks to Ernest, Dorothy and Prof Handler for the reality check. I kinda get a head of steam on when I read some of the stuff being ascribed to oral history these days and to threads like ""what we have learned about our "surname" in Jamaica"" (rhetorically here) Oral history has it’s place. There is some very scary online Gen being done based on nothing more than assumption. When I read the baptismal lists for certain parishes in Jamaica where several hundred people were baptized the same month two points come to fore: That sadly for many this would be as far as they are likely to get and 2. that the common assumptions about slave naming practices must be viewed very sceptically and thus may not be relied on to support undocumented paternity etc. I know for a fact that there may be Codringtons who are afro/euro distant cousins, but that the name was used liberally with no regard for paternity at all and most often Not on a Codrington plantation. I think the break in lineage is one of the most haunting legacies of Slavery though there are success stories. But it occurred to me the other day that europeans may point to similar breaks prior to surname use due to a variety of violent incursions be they Roman, Frank, Hun, Goth, and though all come into play in following bloodlines, prior to surnames, any disruption causing people to shift location would render tracing any sort of true line very very dicey (with the exception of Royals and Nobles). And lower caste Europeans were only becoming properly traceable perhaps a hundred years prior to the settlement of Barbados! Of course they are not comparable to the effect of the African Diaspora by any means. Another thing I think abit sad is due to the passion associated with slavery many on the Jamaica lists obviously do not do regional study which necessarily requires studying landowners, Planter records, wills land documents etc. "Planter's History" can often yield material helpful to their research and in fact may be the only solid data available. Sadly the majority of documentation such as plantation ledger books, merchant/planter correspondence etc is only fragmentary and much that survives is still dispersed such as to be nearly as good as lost. Most of it is not easily accessible to regular folk. A couple months back I was lurking on the Jamaica Board watching interaction regarding the "Jamaican" name of Neufville. Not one person had taken any time to notice what the concentration of Neufvilles in particular parts of Portland parish,Ja might suggest. They had not learned of the plantation history of the area, or done any work in the parish registers to learn european Neufvilles had owned substantial plantations in these areas. As a result, the name was used often in slave baptisms, and there were (most likely) children of mixed heritage. Were any noted in the registers as Neufvilles? Or were they noted in wills and legacies? Or were the majority of Neufvilles baptized on adjacent properties by whim desire or lack of a better idea? I heard no one applying such methods. But one guy posted this HUGE file claiming to have everybody related and laid out neat. Right This is one case where the question "what's in a name" is one hell of a question.. Or should we say the Caribbean is a place where "what's in a name" is the beginning of a journey, not necessarily the one you intend! And I think wherever it takes you, you emerge a richer person for it. ChrisCod -----Original Message----- From: caribbean-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:caribbean-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Ernest M. Wiltshire Sent: Monday, October 05, 2009 4:09 PM To: caribbean@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [Carib] Fw: Oral History & Caribbean Geneologies? Jerry Handler has reprimanded me (below) for the error of my ways: I hang my head in shame! Ernest "...Barbados was settled in 1627,not 1637 (obviously a typo), the amerindians in Dominica are not Arawaks, but the descendants of so-called Caribs, and people speaking Arawakan languages live in Guyana...there is no such thing as an Arawak ethnic group...sorry, to be so anthropological about this"... *************************** The Caribbean List now has a Resources Page at Historic Antigua and Barbuda http://www.rootsweb.com/˜atgwgw/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to CARIBBEAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.420 / Virus Database: 270.14.3/2413 - Release Date: 10/05/09 06:19:00 _____ I am using the Free version of SPAMfighter <http://www.spamfighter.com/len> . We are a community of 6 million users fighting spam. SPAMfighter has removed 1113 of my spam emails to date. The Professional version does not have this message. No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.420 / Virus Database: 270.14.3/2413 - Release Date: 10/05/09 06:19:00

Jerry Handler has reprimanded me (below) for the error of my ways: I hang my head in shame! Ernest "...Barbados was settled in 1627,not 1637 (obviously a typo), the amerindians in Dominica are not Arawaks, but the descendants of so-called Caribs, and people speaking Arawakan languages live in Guyana...there is no such thing as an Arawak ethnic group...sorry, to be so anthropological about this"...

Another very good response re Jamaica: Subject: Oral History & Caribbean Geneologies From: "Bennett, Natalie" <NBENNET1@depaul.edu> Date: Sun, October 4, 2009 6:07 pm David - While the claims of these students may reflect their own family traditions, it is hardly accurate for them to say that these are the traditions of "Barbadians", "Jamaicans", etc. Too often generalized claims about cultural practices in the Caribbean are based on scant evidence and individual experiences. I am aware of the recitation practice, because my own paternal grandmother did it, however, I considered that practice particular to where she lived - a village in the mountains where many elderly persons still live in wattle and daub structures. However, I have never heard of the practice anywhere else beyond that place. My maternal grandmother had her own method of conveying family history to me; she used pieces of furniture and trees as symbols of different persons. But, again, I've never heard of anybody else doing that. Natalie D. A. Bennett, PhD Assistant Professor Women's & Gender Studies DePaul University Byrne Hall, 4th Floor 2219 N. Kenmore Avenue Chicago, IL 60614-4412 phone: 773.325.4047 fax: 773.325.4412 edress: nbennet1@depaul.edu web: www.depaul.edu/~wms -----Original Message----- From: caribbean-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:caribbean-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Dorothy Kew Sent: Monday, October 05, 2009 7:31 AM To: Caribbean List Subject: [Carib] Fw: Oral History & Caribbean Geneologies? Thanks, Ernest. I too agree with Prof. Handler. One thing I would mention that we used to talk about in Jamaica was the habit of "tracing" people's ancestries while sitting around chatting of an evening. Of course, this could also be done in a pejorative way, as you can imagine! As a child I remember my parents and my maiden aunts sitting on the front verandah of a Sunday evening "tracing" some family or the other, most of which consisted of maybe going back one or two generations and making connections. I found this quite boring at the time, but it's amazing how some of what was said seeped into my unconcious and has popped up from time to time since I've been researching my family ... all of a sudden a name comes up and I say: "Wow! I remember them talking about that". Really it was more in the nature of who married who and who had which children, and so on. Nothing more than that, and I imagine most West Indian researchers will have experienced this with their own families. Good to hear from you! Dorothy

Thanks, Ernest. I too agree with Prof. Handler. One thing I would mention that we used to talk about in Jamaica was the habit of "tracing" people's ancestries while sitting around chatting of an evening. Of course, this could also be done in a pejorative way, as you can imagine! As a child I remember my parents and my maiden aunts sitting on the front verandah of a Sunday evening "tracing" some family or the other, most of which consisted of maybe going back one or two generations and making connections. I found this quite boring at the time, but it's amazing how some of what was said seeped into my unconcious and has popped up from time to time since I've been researching my family ... all of a sudden a name comes up and I say: "Wow! I remember them talking about that". Really it was more in the nature of who married who and who had which children, and so on. Nothing more than that, and I imagine most West Indian researchers will have experienced this with their own families. Good to hear from you! Dorothy ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ernest M. Wiltshire" <murcot@synapse.net> To: <caribbean@rootsweb.com> Sent: Sunday, October 04, 2009 9:36 PM Subject: Re: [Carib] Fw: Oral History & Caribbean Geneologies? > Thanks Dorothy. Here is Prof. Handler's response with which I > wholeheartedly agree! > _______ > > Subject: Oral History & Caribbean Genealogies > From: "Jerome Handler" <jh3v@virginia.edu> > Date: Sun, October 4, 2009 1:03 pm > I cannot address the Jamaican situation David Trotman mentions, but I find > it absolutely incredulous that any modern Barbadian could authentically > validate and demonstrate, let alone claim, his/her ancestry to the > aboriginal inhabitants of the island. > Moreover, although there is ample archaeological evidence for Amerindians > in Barbados in pre-colonial times, there is no evidence that they > inhabited > the island when it was colonized by the English in the 1620s; however, a > small group of Amerindians, so-called "Arawaks", was brought to the island > from South America not long after colonization. That this particular > student > claims "Arawak ancestry" in her family "back to 1596" > is interesting but raises an issue that has nothing to do with historical > or > geneological veracity. > Jerome Handler, > Virginia Foundation for the Humanities > > -----Original Message----- > From: caribbean-bounces@rootsweb.com > [mailto:caribbean-bounces@rootsweb.com] > On Behalf Of Dorothy Kew > Sent: Sunday, October 04, 2009 5:28 PM > To: caribbean@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [Carib] Fw: Oral History & Caribbean Geneologies? > I'm not an historian, but I have to agree with Ernest. I've been > researching Jamaican ancestry for twenty years and have never come across > any such thing as a "sung genealogy". > Dorothy > > *************************** > The Caribbean List now has a Resources Page at Historic Antigua and > Barbuda http://www.rootsweb.com/~atgwgw/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > CARIBBEAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message

I have heard of sung genealogies in Africa, at least in "Roots" (the book by Alex Haley, not the made-for-TV movie). ?It is possible a Barbadian could trace her or her roots to Arawaks, but only if her ancestors came to Barbados from neighboring islands. ?(My grandmother, for instance, would have fit that description, but she was only a Barbadian because her parents moved there from St. Vincent). ?I have always read, and heard while on Barbados, that for whatever reason (epidemic disease introduced from Europe, Carib raids, internal warfare, local malthusian crisis, take your pick) there were no native Barbadians left by the time the place was colonized. -----Original Message----- From: Augusta Elmwood <augustae@bellsouth.net> To: CARIBBEAN Roots Web <caribbean@rootsweb.com> Sent: Sun, Oct 4, 2009 3:11 pm Subject: [Carib] Fw: Oral History & Caribbean Geneologies? Hi, everyone, I received the message below from the H-Caribbean list. Even if we can't help, it certainly is worth sharing. Augusta Elmwood in rainy-Sunday New Orleans ----- Original Message ----- From: "Audra A. Diptee" <adiptee@MAIL.H-NET.MSU.EDU> To: <H-CARIBBEAN@H-NET.MSU.EDU> Sent: Sunday, October 04, 2009 9:15 AM Subject: Oral History & Caribbean Geneologies? > From: David V. Trotman <dtrotman@yorku.ca> > Date: Sat, October 3, 2009 9:28 am > Subject: Oral History & Caribbean Geneologies? > > A colleague at York University reported the following from his class on > genealogy: > > "Meanwhile, Winnie, Jamaican, reeled off eleven generations. Back into the > slave times. > > Well now, that beguiled us all, in our classroom. > > We asked how she did that. > > She said that Jamaican families sing their genealogies. The tune and > rhythm is shared, but the content is your own. These songs string you > back, in Winnie's case, through the maroons up-country, and then, these > days, allow the modern family to link the sung record to written records > of the slave markets of the Carolinas". > > In response to this a graduate student, from Barbados, claiming Arawak > ancestry declared: > > "I think this is entirely possible...I can trace my geneology back to 1596 > so I don't see why this student can't. We don't sing ours though. We do it > as a response to the question "who are you?" with the response for me > being, I am Leilani, child of Elizabeth, child of Janice, child of Martha, > child of The Lucky One, child of Amorotahe Haubariria, child of Amorotahe, > grandchild of Wiwakaleme, child of the great Harpy eagle. I am a Harpy > Eagle Lokono". > > Do other members of the list know of the existence of these practices in > the Caribbean? > > If so, how widespread is this? Is there any published research on this > aspect of the oral tradition in the Caribbean? > > David V. Trotman > Department of History/Division of Humanities > York University *************************** The Caribbean List now has a Resources Page at Historic Antigua and Barbuda http://www.rootsweb.com/~atgwgw/ ------------------------------- To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to CARIBBEAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

Thanks Dorothy. Here is Prof. Handler's response with which I wholeheartedly agree! _______ Subject: Oral History & Caribbean Genealogies From: "Jerome Handler" <jh3v@virginia.edu> Date: Sun, October 4, 2009 1:03 pm I cannot address the Jamaican situation David Trotman mentions, but I find it absolutely incredulous that any modern Barbadian could authentically validate and demonstrate, let alone claim, his/her ancestry to the aboriginal inhabitants of the island. Moreover, although there is ample archaeological evidence for Amerindians in Barbados in pre-colonial times, there is no evidence that they inhabited the island when it was colonized by the English in the 1620s; however, a small group of Amerindians, so-called "Arawaks", was brought to the island from South America not long after colonization. That this particular student claims "Arawak ancestry" in her family "back to 1596" is interesting but raises an issue that has nothing to do with historical or geneological veracity. Jerome Handler, Virginia Foundation for the Humanities -----Original Message----- From: caribbean-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:caribbean-bounces@rootsweb.com] On Behalf Of Dorothy Kew Sent: Sunday, October 04, 2009 5:28 PM To: caribbean@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [Carib] Fw: Oral History & Caribbean Geneologies? I'm not an historian, but I have to agree with Ernest. I've been researching Jamaican ancestry for twenty years and have never come across any such thing as a "sung genealogy". Dorothy

I, too, am very slim on the history of slavery. (I did recently read with angst the slave ads run in the Savannah Morning News in 1852.) That said, I do know that the aborigines of Australia have "song lines" that are actually geographic directions to travel to certain distant places. I've always just assumed songs are the perfect way for peoples to relate important knowledge. Poetry, after all, predates prose in nearly all cultures. I would love to hear one of these genealogy songs. Cheers, happy hunting, Laura On Oct 4, 2009, at 5:28 PM, Dorothy Kew wrote: > I'm not an historian, but I have to agree with Ernest. I've been > researching Jamaican ancestry for twenty years and have never come > across > any such thing as a "sung genealogy". >>

Jamaica was English/British, and there were settlers from the Carolinas that did settle there, but that was many years later. Maybe the singing is unique to this family. I do know that with the VI, we did not discuss our 'business', which is why I got into genealogy, I knew my immediate family, but that's it. I did recently discover that the Carolina area did export Native Americans to the Caribbean, at the time it was part of the Spanish territory, they would re-classify them as black/negro and send them to the islands. So many tthe the Nation promised war against the colonies. Ann "Sharing the information." Researching the USVI, St.Eustatius, St. Barths, Barbados > From: lwa101@comcast.net > To: caribbean@rootsweb.com > Date: Sun, 4 Oct 2009 18:32:14 -0400 > Subject: Re: [Carib] Fw: Oral History & Caribbean Geneologies? > > I, too, am very slim on the history of slavery. (I did recently read > with angst the slave ads run in the Savannah Morning News in 1852.) > That said, I do know that the aborigines of Australia have "song > lines" that are actually geographic directions to travel to certain > distant places. I've always just assumed songs are the perfect way for > peoples to relate important knowledge. Poetry, after all, predates > prose in nearly all cultures. I would love to hear one of these > genealogy songs. > > Cheers, happy hunting, > Laura > > > > On Oct 4, 2009, at 5:28 PM, Dorothy Kew wrote: > > > I'm not an historian, but I have to agree with Ernest. I've been > > researching Jamaican ancestry for twenty years and have never come > > across > > any such thing as a "sung genealogy". > >> > *************************** > The Caribbean List now has a Resources Page at Historic Antigua and Barbuda http://www.rootsweb.com/~atgwgw/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to CARIBBEAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the quotes in the subject and the body of the message

I'm not an historian, but I have to agree with Ernest. I've been researching Jamaican ancestry for twenty years and have never come across any such thing as a "sung genealogy". Dorothy ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ernest M. Wiltshire" <murcot@synapse.net> To: <caribbean@rootsweb.com> Sent: Sunday, October 04, 2009 4:53 PM Subject: Re: [Carib] Fw: Oral History & Caribbean Geneologies? >I have seen this item on the H-Caribbean List and another friend also > forwarded it to me for my comments. > I am extremely puzzled at the idea of a Barbadian with Arawak ancestry: > when > the island was settled circa 1637, there were none of the original > inhabitants there so I do not understand how such a genealogy going back > to > 1596 would even be possible. > There is of course still an Arawak presence in Dominica and in (British) > Guiana, but I know of no Arawak links to Barbados. Can anyone on the List > shed any light on this? > As for the Jamaican "sung genealogies" I can't say that I have ever heard > of > such a thing in any of the islands in which I lived (including 3 years in > Jamaica). And what link is there between Jamaica and the slave markets in > he > Carolinas? I seriously doubt that slaves in Jamaica came there via the > mainland and not directly from Africa (or at least via Barbados!) > Historians please: Any serious scholarly evidence for these claims? > Ernest > > -----Original Message----- > From: caribbean-bounces@rootsweb.com > [mailto:caribbean-bounces@rootsweb.com] > Subject: [Carib] Fw: Oral History & Caribbean Geneologies? > Hi, everyone, I received the message below from the H-Caribbean list. Even > if we can't help, it certainly is worth sharing. > Augusta Elmwood in rainy-Sunday New Orleans > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Audra A. Diptee" <adiptee@MAIL.H-NET.MSU.EDU> > To: <H-CARIBBEAN@H-NET.MSU.EDU> > Sent: Sunday, October 04, 2009 9:15 AM > Subject: Oral History & Caribbean Geneologies? >> From: David V. Trotman <dtrotman@yorku.ca> >> A colleague at York University reported the following from his class on >> genealogy: "Meanwhile, Winnie, Jamaican, reeled off eleven generations. > Back into the slave times. Well now, that beguiled us all, in our > classroom. > We asked how she did that. >> She said that Jamaican families sing their genealogies. The tune and >> rhythm is shared, but the content is your own. These songs string you >> back, in Winnie's case, through the maroons up-country, and then, these >> days, allow the modern family to link the sung record to written records >> of the slave markets of the Carolinas". >> In response to this a graduate student, from Barbados, claiming Arawak >> ancestry declared: >> "I think this is entirely possible...I can trace my geneology back to >> 1596 >> so I don't see why this student can't. We don't sing ours though. We do >> it >> as a response to the question "who are you?" with the response for me >> being, I am Leilani, child of Elizabeth, child of Janice, child of >> Martha, >> child of The Lucky One, child of Amorotahe Haubariria, child of >> Amorotahe, >> grandchild of Wiwakaleme, child of the great Harpy eagle. I am a Harpy >> Eagle Lokono". >> Do other members of the list know of the existence of these practices in >> the Caribbean? If so, how widespread is this? Is there any published > research on this aspect of the oral tradition in the Caribbean? >> David V. Trotman > > > *************************** > The Caribbean List now has a Resources Page at Historic Antigua and > Barbuda http://www.rootsweb.com/~atgwgw/ > ------------------------------- > To unsubscribe from the list, please send an email to > CARIBBEAN-request@rootsweb.com with the word 'unsubscribe' without the > quotes in the subject and the body of the message -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 8.5.409 / Virus Database: 270.14.3/2413 - Release Date: 10/04/09 06:20:00

I have seen this item on the H-Caribbean List and another friend also forwarded it to me for my comments. I am extremely puzzled at the idea of a Barbadian with Arawak ancestry: when the island was settled circa 1637, there were none of the original inhabitants there so I do not understand how such a genealogy going back to 1596 would even be possible. There is of course still an Arawak presence in Dominica and in (British) Guiana, but I know of no Arawak links to Barbados. Can anyone on the List shed any light on this? As for the Jamaican "sung genealogies" I can't say that I have ever heard of such a thing in any of the islands in which I lived (including 3 years in Jamaica). And what link is there between Jamaica and the slave markets in he Carolinas? I seriously doubt that slaves in Jamaica came there via the mainland and not directly from Africa (or at least via Barbados!) Historians please: Any serious scholarly evidence for these claims? Ernest -----Original Message----- From: caribbean-bounces@rootsweb.com [mailto:caribbean-bounces@rootsweb.com] Subject: [Carib] Fw: Oral History & Caribbean Geneologies? Hi, everyone, I received the message below from the H-Caribbean list. Even if we can't help, it certainly is worth sharing. Augusta Elmwood in rainy-Sunday New Orleans ----- Original Message ----- From: "Audra A. Diptee" <adiptee@MAIL.H-NET.MSU.EDU> To: <H-CARIBBEAN@H-NET.MSU.EDU> Sent: Sunday, October 04, 2009 9:15 AM Subject: Oral History & Caribbean Geneologies? > From: David V. Trotman <dtrotman@yorku.ca> > A colleague at York University reported the following from his class on > genealogy: "Meanwhile, Winnie, Jamaican, reeled off eleven generations. Back into the slave times. Well now, that beguiled us all, in our classroom. We asked how she did that. > She said that Jamaican families sing their genealogies. The tune and > rhythm is shared, but the content is your own. These songs string you > back, in Winnie's case, through the maroons up-country, and then, these > days, allow the modern family to link the sung record to written records > of the slave markets of the Carolinas". > In response to this a graduate student, from Barbados, claiming Arawak > ancestry declared: > "I think this is entirely possible...I can trace my geneology back to 1596 > so I don't see why this student can't. We don't sing ours though. We do it > as a response to the question "who are you?" with the response for me > being, I am Leilani, child of Elizabeth, child of Janice, child of Martha, > child of The Lucky One, child of Amorotahe Haubariria, child of Amorotahe, > grandchild of Wiwakaleme, child of the great Harpy eagle. I am a Harpy > Eagle Lokono". > Do other members of the list know of the existence of these practices in > the Caribbean? If so, how widespread is this? Is there any published research on this aspect of the oral tradition in the Caribbean? > David V. Trotman

Hi, everyone, I received the message below from the H-Caribbean list. Even if we can't help, it certainly is worth sharing. Augusta Elmwood in rainy-Sunday New Orleans ----- Original Message ----- From: "Audra A. Diptee" <adiptee@MAIL.H-NET.MSU.EDU> To: <H-CARIBBEAN@H-NET.MSU.EDU> Sent: Sunday, October 04, 2009 9:15 AM Subject: Oral History & Caribbean Geneologies? > From: David V. Trotman <dtrotman@yorku.ca> > Date: Sat, October 3, 2009 9:28 am > Subject: Oral History & Caribbean Geneologies? > > A colleague at York University reported the following from his class on > genealogy: > > "Meanwhile, Winnie, Jamaican, reeled off eleven generations. Back into the > slave times. > > Well now, that beguiled us all, in our classroom. > > We asked how she did that. > > She said that Jamaican families sing their genealogies. The tune and > rhythm is shared, but the content is your own. These songs string you > back, in Winnie's case, through the maroons up-country, and then, these > days, allow the modern family to link the sung record to written records > of the slave markets of the Carolinas". > > In response to this a graduate student, from Barbados, claiming Arawak > ancestry declared: > > "I think this is entirely possible...I can trace my geneology back to 1596 > so I don't see why this student can't. We don't sing ours though. We do it > as a response to the question "who are you?" with the response for me > being, I am Leilani, child of Elizabeth, child of Janice, child of Martha, > child of The Lucky One, child of Amorotahe Haubariria, child of Amorotahe, > grandchild of Wiwakaleme, child of the great Harpy eagle. I am a Harpy > Eagle Lokono". > > Do other members of the list know of the existence of these practices in > the Caribbean? > > If so, how widespread is this? Is there any published research on this > aspect of the oral tradition in the Caribbean? > > David V. Trotman > Department of History/Division of Humanities > York University

Volumes SP 78/302-306 covering April 1777 to March 1778, mainly contain correspondence between viscount Weymouth, a secretary of state in London, and viscount Stormont, British ambassador in Paris, who accuses the French government of deceit. Rebel American privateers are allowed to take their prizes into French ports in the West Indies and to sell them and their cargoes. As well as the details indexed under the names of ships, there are many complaints and statements in correspondence sent back from the British governors in the West Indies and from British captains and owners reporting to the admiralty. NB I have abbreviated the full text, which can be found at: <http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalogue/DisplayCatalogueDetails.asp?CATID=74107&CATLN=4&FullDetails=False> Volume SP 78/303 contains the Deposition of Anthony MOLL, commander of the Sally. After the Sally was sold, the general gave him a paper for the custom house and the attached permit. When the privateer Rattlesnake arrived, her captain tried to recruit volunteers and her crew were put in gaol until ready to sail. 25 Apr 1777 Grenada <http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalogue/displaycataloguedetails.asp?CATID=-2237219&CATLN=7&Highlight=&FullDetails=True> Peter Moll Tortola, BVI Spring wrote 29/09/2009: > While searching the online catalogue of TNA (The UK National Archives) I > came across some unrelated MOLLs whose presence may interest some > members of this list. > The first one was a George MOLL, from Central Africa, who served in West > India Regiments in the early nineteenth century and appears to have > become a "Chelsea Pensioner" (their colourful dress uniform is now a > great tourist attraction in London) after he was discharged at the age > of 54. > A note indicates that TNA is digitalising the "Royal Hospital Chelsea: > Soldiers Service Documents", including the "discharge papers of 1st to > 11th West India Regiments, 1760-1854" > <http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalogue/displaycataloguedetails.asp?CATLN=7&CATID=-4037972> > > Peter Moll > Tortola, BVI

While searching the online catalogue of TNA (The UK National Archives) I came across some unrelated MOLLs whose presence may interest some members of this list. The first one was a George MOLL, from Central Africa, who served in West India Regiments in the early nineteenth century and appears to have become a "Chelsea Pensioner" (their colourful dress uniform is now a great tourist attraction in London) after he was discharged at the age of 54. A note indicates that TNA is digitalising the "Royal Hospital Chelsea: Soldiers Service Documents", including the "discharge papers of 1st to 11th West India Regiments, 1760-1854" <http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/catalogue/displaycataloguedetails.asp?CATLN=7&CATID=-4037972> Peter Moll Tortola, BVI