Hi Sharon, While knowing nothing, I regret, of your SPENCERs, I do know Newhall Street in Birmingham, which still exists, and includes the Post Office Tower amongst other notable buildings. And a flight of locks runs beneath it, which establishes a canal connection of a sort. You say you've found young Philip in the 1881 Census - but on looking at the National Index, there are 21 Philip SPENCERs, including 2 Philip G's who were born (nominally) in 1861 and 1863. The Census was taken on 3 April - and Philip Gell was baptised 8 June 1862 in Derbyshire. The one you quote the details of, however said he was born in Shropshire. But the other was born at CRICK (sic), Derbyshire... HIS details are: Dwelling: 124 Merton Bank Lane Census Place: Parr, Lancashire, England Source: FHL Film 1341894 PRO Ref RG11 Piece 3737 Folio 140 Page 60 Marr Age Sex Birthplace Joseph PARKES M 33 M Wheelock, Cheshire, England Rel: Head; Occ: Fish Dealer Sarah PARKES M 31 F Middleton, Derby, England Rel: Wife; Occ: Wife Fish Dealer Sarah PARKES U 5 F Alltopp, York, England Rel: Daur; Occ: Scholar Mary PARKES U 2 F Hollingwood, Lancashire, England Rel: Daur Philip G. SPENCER U 20 M Crick, Derby, England I suspect this one is yours - but you'll still need to look at the actual Census Film for both of them, as the Index doesn't always include everything the enumerator wrote down.... As far as the 1881 Census Index is concerned, there were 313 SPENCERs were born in Derbyshire betweeen 1855 and 1865 - and of the 238 of them who were still there in 1881 there were none born at Crich / Crich Carr... (But, rather oddly, at least 3 were born at Newhall!) Furthermore, between 1820 and 1840 there were 243 Thomases and 505 Marys born in the UK, which makes searching for his parents - always assuming they were still alive anyway - quite an undertaking. Not impossible, but way beyond the scope of a simple look-up request. Again, it would seem that you've only got Philip's baptism from the IGI, whi ch, even more than the Census Index, is likely to contain errors, as well as being incomplete. But did your looker-up only look at the Derbyshire fiches? You need to see the actual entry in the Parish's baptisms register, which will - or should - give his father's occupation and an indication of his address. It may even give his date and place of birth, too, if you're VERY lucky. And the the General Register Office's Index of births could well include him - but not necessarily, as it didn't become compulsory enough to warrant a fine for non-registration until around 1875 - quite possibly in a totally different area IF his parents were travelling Boatmen. And you'll need to buy the certificate, too... HTH Gus Tysoe Droitwich, Worcs Linear-Salt-Lake City -----Original Message----- From: [email protected] <[email protected]> To: [email protected] <[email protected]> Date: 06 April 2000 13:03 Subject: [CANAL-PEOPLE] Thomas Spencer and his son Philip Gell Spencer >I have found the baptism for Philip Gell Spencer: >Phillip Gell Spencer christened 8th June 1862, Crich, Derby, England. Father >- Thomas. Batch No. C049781. >I have found Philip in the 1881 census: > Dwelling: 71 Newhall St > Census Place: Birmingham, Warwick, England > Source: FHL Film 1341719 PRO Ref RG11 Piece 3010 Folio 108 >Page 1 > Marr Age Sex Birthplace >Philip G. SPENCER U 18 M ...hall, Shropshire, England > Rel: Lodger (Head) > Occ: Fire Insurance Clerk