Well actually Freda the debate is taking part in public as well as in private. If you look at the Senate debates, and at the proceedings of the committee in the Senate: http://www.parl.gc.ca/37/2/parlbus/commbus/senate/Com-e/soci-e/10ev-e.ht m?Language=E&Parl=37&Ses=2&comm_id=47 http://www.parl.gc.ca/37/2/parlbus/commbus/senate/Com-e/soci-e/12ev-e.ht m?Language=E&Parl=37&Ses=2&comm_id=47 http://www.parl.gc.ca/37/2/parlbus/chambus/senate/deb-e/034db_2003-02-11 -E.htm?Language=E&Parl=37&Ses=2#46 As you can see from the comments of Senator Murray and others they do genuinely care about privacy issues. If there is some other kind of real issue involved, I would like to know about it. I do agree the comment that you can't legislate for everything. In fact we saw that in S-13 where the 20 year period of limited access was created. That was certainly unworkable. However what is really being debated is whether to add a question to the census that will ask people whether or not their census will be included in the historic record, and what form that question will take. That is a realistic debate that has proved very difficult to win. -----Original Message----- From: fredastewart [mailto:fritzzi@shaw.ca] Sent: Wednesday, September 29, 2004 1:51 PM To: Paul, Jeff: SEN; CANADA-CENSUS-CAMPAIGN-L@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [CCC] Bella Online Article Hi Jeff - IF there is debate it needs to be open to the public, in the House of Commons, so all members can take part and voice their opinions; and so all Canadians can hear what these arguments are and who is saying what. Most of the privacy thing is a scare mongering tactic to deflect from real issues. Sorry Jeff but I've had it up to the ears with so-called privacy issues. Common-sense by people themselves needs to come into play. You can't legislate for everything or the system becomes so costly and cumbersome it can't possibly work. Freda Stewart ----- Original Message ----- From: "Paul, Jeff: SEN" <PAULJ@SEN.PARL.GC.CA> To: <CANADA-CENSUS-CAMPAIGN-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Wednesday, September 29, 2004 11:11 AM Subject: RE: [CCC] Bella Online Article > I'm sorry to disagree with Ms. Malone, but I find her arguments to be a > bit cynical. The fact of the matter is that if the Liberal Party did > not want the release of historic census records then the 1906 census > never would have seen the light of day. The work of Murray Calder and > Senator Milne, as well as the work of Muriel, Gordon, and everyone > reading this list caused the 1906 census to be released. And I think > that today is a good day to remind people that it was a Liberal > government that released the 1906 census and it was a Liberal government > that DID tell Fellegi to take off and introduced a bill to provide a > structure for the relase of all future census records. Now it is true > that Sen. Milne wanted amendments to that bill and it did not pass. > There is a new minister involved now, and you will note that he has not > yet stated a position on the release of historic census records. We > will have to wait and measure him by the first pronouncements that he > makes. > > Real debate is occurring on this issue. If there was no real debate the > government would not have moved from stating that no records will ever > be released to releasing the 1906 census and providing legislation that > would allow for the future release of census records. Were we happy > with the legislation - no. But that does not in any way shape or form > support the assertion that there is no real debate. In fact it shows > the exact opposite. > > As for whether or not the privacy issues are specious, well I would > respectfully disagree. Don't forget that we are talking about privacy > of both census that have taken place, and censuses that will take place. > Does the government have the right to tell a person during the 2006 > census that in 92 years all of the information that they collect will > become public for all to see and no one can do anything about it? I > think that is a question that reasonable people can have a healthy > disagreement about. I would certainly agree with Ms. Malone that there > is no harm in the government doing exactly that, and that I would vote > for a bill that did that because I believe in the integrity of the > historical record. However, I would not ever suggest that a person who > wanted to make an argument that each person should decide whether or not > to include their personal information from the 2006 census in the > National Archives is making a specious argument about privacy. > > The government has clearly stated that they are not going to move on > this file until a complete solution that looks at both long term and > short term issues are thorougly examined and ONE solution is put into > place to deal with it and put the file to bed. I can't say that I blame > them. > > All that having been said, Senator Milne is still actively working on > this file and the second that we know where the government is going, > you'll be the first to hear. > > Jeff Paul > > -----Original Message----- > From: Betty Malone [mailto:bmalone@ameritech.net] > Sent: Wednesday, September 29, 2004 12:47 PM > To: Paul, Jeff: SEN; CANADA-CENSUS-CAMPAIGN-L@rootsweb.com > Subject: RE: [CCC] Bella Online Article > > With due respect to Jeff Paul, political parties try to appear to be all > things to all people & thus will allow a minority faction to be visible > & noisy about a cause in which they ardently believe, knowing who has > the > votes. They want the public to think real debate is occurring. That > way, > they avoid the ire of supporters of that cause. > > The "privacy issue" is specious, since 92-year-old census data is > useless > for identity theft or whatever. The only people for whom census data > has > value are the families & historians. The US releases its census data > 20 > years earlier than Canada & has never had a "privacy issue." There is > no > justification for delaying release of Canadian census data even the > current > 92 years. The goal should be to release it as soon as practicable, not > as > late as possible. > > If the Liberal Party was really interested in release of the census > records, it would direct Fellegi to turn the records over to the > Archivist, as provided by law & practiced without problem, until his > intervention. > > Betty > St. Charles, IL > > -----Original Message----- > From: Paul, Jeff: SEN [mailto:PAULJ@SEN.PARL.GC.CA] > Sent: Wednesday, September 29, 2004 10:27 AM > To: CANADA-CENSUS-CAMPAIGN-L@rootsweb.com > Subject: RE: [CCC] Bella Online Article > > I would like to make a point here that I think is really important. > There seems to be a tendency here to separate Senator Milne from the > governing party. They are one and the same thing. If the Liberal Party > was genuinely against this movement, Senator Milne would have been shut > down a long time ago. The fact of the matter is that over 99% of > Liberals support our cause and are just figuring out how to balance the > privacy issues that inherently go along with it. > > So to answer something that Mr. Westman said, the governing party is not > allowing Fellegi to get away with anything. Just the opposite. It is > some of the most partisan Liberal staff, MPs, and Senators who are > fighting tooth and nail against Dr. Fellegi to ensure that he doesn't > get away with anything. Sen. Milne, Murray Calder, Richard McGuire and > I are just the ones you hear about. > > Jeff Paul > > -----Original Message----- > From: Herb Westman [mailto:herb.westman@sympatico.ca] > Sent: Wednesday, September 29, 2004 11:20 AM > To: Paul, Jeff: SEN; CANADA-CENSUS-CAMPAIGN-L@rootsweb.com > Subject: Re: [CCC] Bella Online Article > > I would like to express great gratitude to Jeff Paul and Senator Milne > for their tireless work on our behalf. > > The unfortunate thing about this situation is that the currently > governing party has allowed Mr. Fellegi to "get away" with his > obstructionism, sort of like aiding and abetting, so supporters of what > appears to be the lawful position in this case have to go to the > political opposition to press the issue and get public recognition for > our position. The Privacy Act has many deficiencies in it or > alternatively has been abused by those lacking in common sense. I have > had personal experience with this type of situation in a case of a > relative dying without a will and the result has been what could be > called stupidity, speaking most charitably; obstruction of common > justice might be another way to describe it. Most incredible! Perhaps > in this case Mr. Fellegi is looking to create a reason for his early > retirement with a healthy severance package - he deserves no respect for > this action. > > Again thanks to Mr. Paul and Senator Milne for their battle for common > sense. More profuse thanks will arrive when the battle is finally won. > > Herb Westman > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Paul, Jeff: SEN" <PAULJ@SEN.PARL.GC.CA> > To: <CANADA-CENSUS-CAMPAIGN-L@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Wednesday, September 29, 2004 9:58 AM > Subject: [CCC] Bella Online Article > > >> Good morning everyone: >> >> Unfortunately I have to take some time this morning to take issue with > >> some comments made by Gordon Watts in the Bella Online article that >> Gilbert Provost posted yesterday. In particular I am shocked and >> disappointed at the comments made by Gordon that the political party >> that has been the most supportive of the Canada Census Project has > been >> the Conservative Party and its predecessor, the Canadian Alliance. > That >> would have been bad enough, but he went further to say that the > Liberal >> Party has been the least supportive of this issue. >> >> The fact of the matter is that there is only 1 MP or Senator currently > >> actively working on this file and that is Senator Lorna Milne - and > she >> is a Liberal. The only MP to have ever taken this issue seriously is >> former MP Murray Calder who was also a Liberal. I can also tell you >> that there have been more than a few cabinet ministers that have been >> pushing for the release of the census, but because of cabinet >> confidentiality issues, they can't do so publically. >> >> What is even more disappointing in Gordon's comments is the number of >> times that he has dealt with our office, has met with Senator Milne, > has >> plotted strategy with Senator Milne, and has asked Senator Milne for >> advice. How he can possibly say that he has had more support from >> Conservatives is absolutely beyond me. I would have thought that by > now >> Gordon would understand that it is very easy for an opposition member > to >> say that they support someone 100% because they never have to deliver >> anything. As far as Gordon is concerned all that a party has to do is > >> pay lip service and say yes to his questions and he will give them all > >> the credit in the world. However since Senator Milne is a government >> member and has to deliver on this file, her 5 years of work, endless >> meetings with 5 different cabinet ministers, 3 privacy commissioners, > 2 >> access to information commissioners, dozens of MPs and Senators and > more >> speeches in the Senate and to caucus than I can count, simply do not > add >> up to enough support for Gordon to even warrant a mention when > directly >> asked about how much political support he has received. >> >> I will be very blunt by telling everyone that we do not and we can not > >> list everything that Senator Milne does to work on this file on this >> listserve. If we did, no cabinet minister would ever meet with us on >> any issue ever again. Since you folks last heard from me there have >> been numerous meetings on this file. We are pushing very hard to get >> the government to act. I know that there is huge support within the >> Liberal Party to get this resolved. But if we announce baby steps and > >> maybes and all of the ups and downs of negotiations that would be the >> end of this project. >> >> The fact of the matter is that Gordon knows all of this very well, and > >> there have been times over the years that we have let him in on > various >> things in advance and in secrecy in order to properly measure what the > >> response of the genealogical community would be. He knows that we > have >> been working on this file on an ongoing basis. In fact Gordon knows >> that Sen. Milne has been working to find a champion in the House of >> Commons for this one. We even talked about that last week. I find it > >> quite amusing that one week he would suggest that we find a Liberal to > >> champion the cause in the House, and the next he would be complaining > in >> the media of the lack of support from the Liberal Party. >> >> That all having been said, I want you all to know that this file >> continues to be a very very hot one in our office. We've been meeting > >> with and talking to people as recently as this past Monday on the > file. >> I hope that this kind of support by Liberals is sufficient for > Gordon's >> liking. >> >> Yours truly, >> >> Jeff Paul >> Policy Advisor >> Office of the Hon. Lorna Milne >> Ph: (613) 947-9744 >> Cell: (613) 715-2965 >> >> >> >> ==== CANADA-CENSUS-CAMPAIGN Mailing List ==== How to unsubscribe from >> Mail Mode. Send a message to >> CANADA-CENSUS-CAMPAIGN-L-request@rootsweb.com that contains (in the >> Subject line and body of the message) the command >> -- unsubscribe -- and no additional text. >> >> > > > > > ==== CANADA-CENSUS-CAMPAIGN Mailing List ==== Keep up to date on Post > 1901 Census Issues at > http://globalgenealogy.com/Census/ > en frangais http://globalgenealogy.com/Census/Index_f.htm > > > > > ==== CANADA-CENSUS-CAMPAIGN Mailing List ==== > How to unsubscribe from Mail Mode. 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