It looks like we can take Mr. Chong off the fence. Bob Crawford ----- Original Message ----- From: "Chong, Michael - Riding 1B" <ChongM1B@parl.gc.ca> To: <ogs@aztec-net.com> Sent: Wednesday, November 03, 2004 2:45 PM Subject: Release of Post 1901 Census > Dear Mr. Crawford: > > Thank you for your email expressing support for the release of post-1901 > census records. I appreciate knowing your views on this issue and am > pleased to be given the opportunity of providing you with our position. > > The Conservative Party supports the preservation of census records and the > subsequent transfer of these records to the National Archives for public > release. We believe that keeping the records confidential for the > historical 92-year period is an adequate length of time, and that this is > generally consistent with the practice in Britain and the United States, > where records are kept confidential for 100 and 72 years respectively. > > Sincerely, > > Karen Townsend, Constituency Assistant > for Michael Chong, M.P. Wellington-Halton Hills >

hear hear! gilchrists wrote: >There is an extensive article about this whole subject in today's Toronto >Star. It seems that yes indeed that as the legislation currently stands the >photographer will hold the copyright and those who paid for their services >will have to seek any releases - in fact copyright ownership might be built >into the small print of any contracts. > >Also, the legislation might also be retro-active! It seems to have the >potential to become a researcher and archivist's nightmare! > >This is absolutely absurd and immediate action must be taken by contacting >the Members of Parliament ... > >Cheers! >J. Brian Gilchrist > >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Shirley" <salane@eastlink.ca> >To: <CANADA-CENSUS-CAMPAIGN-L@rootsweb.com> >Sent: 2004 Nov 01 3:47 PM >Subject: Re: [CCC] Copyright in Photos -- Bill S-9 -- URGENT action needed >[off topic] > > >I question how any photographer can copyright any picture that was >commissioned and paid for by an individual. If it is one taken by a >photographer as art that is one thing but something he is hired to do for >someone else is quite another matter >Shirley >----- Original Message ----- >From: "Muriel M. Davidson" <muriel_davidson@sympatico.ca> >To: <CANADA-CENSUS-CAMPAIGN-L@rootsweb.com> >Sent: Monday, November 01, 2004 3:54 PM >Subject: [CCC] Copyright in Photos -- Bill S-9 -- URGENT action needed [off >topic] > > > > >>Hello Robbie:- >> >>Many thanks about Bill S-9 -- should anyone be searching >>past photos, etc., he or she may be alright as I do not >>honestly believe laws can be dated back to years ago. >>I read something about it and am happy you mentioned it. >> >>The sale of digital cameras should really go up -- if the >>photographers want to copyright everything, even the face of >>a newborn baby -- it will be better to do this ourselves. >> >>Muriel >>----- Original Message ----- >>From: "Robber" <robber@rogers.com> >>To: <CANADA-CENSUS-CAMPAIGN-L@rootsweb.com> >>Sent: Monday, November 01, 2004 2:26 PM >>Subject: [CCC] Copyright in Photos -- Bill S-9 -- URGENT action needed >>[off >>topic] >> >> >> >> >>>Hello everyone, >>> >>>I am forwarding the e-mail below although it is off-topic because I >>> >>> >>believe >> >> >>>it will be of interest to genealogists who are engaged in trying to >>>influence the government on the census issue. It relates to a bill >>>before >>>the Senate now that will re-assign copyright from the owner/commissioner >>> >>> >>of >> >> >>>a photograph to the photographer. It would mean that copyright in family >>>portraits, baby pictures, wedding pictures, etc. would reside with the >>>photographer and not the family. Thus, use of the photographs in family >>>histories, publications, genealogy web sites, or distribution by e-mail, >>>would all be illegal, ie. an infringement of the photographer's >>>copyright. >>>This is a simplification of the bill but more detail is available below >>>in >>>the original e-mail from Wallace McLean. >>> >>>Thanks, >>>Rob >>> >>> >>>-----Original Message----- >>>From: owner-arcan-l@majordomo.srv.ualberta.ca >>>[mailto:owner-arcan-l@majordomo.srv.ualberta.ca]On Behalf Of Wallace >>>J.McLean >>>Sent: Thursday, October 28, 2004 11:56 PM >>>To: Wallace J.McLean >>>Cc: ARCAN-L@majordomo.srv.ualberta.ca >>>Subject: Re: Copyright in Photos -- Bill S-9 -- URGENT action needed >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>The members of the Senate Committe on Social Affairs, Science and >>>Technology are: >>> >>> Kirby, Michael Chair - Lib. kirbymjl@sen.parl.gc.ca >>> Keon, Wilbert Joseph Deputy-Chair - C keonw@sen.parl.gc.ca >>> Callbeck, Catherine S. - Lib. callbc@sen.parl.gc.ca >>> Cochrane, Ethel M. - C cochre@sen.parl.gc.ca >>> Cook, Joan - Lib. cookj@sen.parl.gc.ca >>> Fairbairn, Joyce - Lib. fairbj@sen.parl.gc.ca >>> Gill, Aurélien - Lib. gilla@sen.parl.gc.ca >>> Johnson, Janis G. - C johnsj@sen.parl.gc.ca >>> LeBreton, Marjory - C lebrem@sen.parl.gc.ca >>> Morin, Yves - Lib. moriny@sen.parl.gc.ca >>> Pépin, Lucie - Lib. pepinl@sen.parl.gc.ca >>> Trenholme Counsell, Marilyn - Lib. counsm@sen.parl.gc.ca >>> >>>They are under the impression that Bill S-9 and its changes to >>>copyright in photography are benign and uncontroversial. >>> >>> >>>Here's the committee hearing from last spring, in the House, where >>>Nancy Marelli delivered the archival concerns re copyright in >>>photographs: >>> >>> http://www.parl.gc.ca/committee/CommitteePublication.aspx? >>>SourceId=80458 >>> >>> >>>She said in part -- and this is absolutely fantastic, dynamite stuff: >>> >>> I'm here because there are millions of photographs in the holdings >>>of archival institutions across Canada. There are more than 21 million >>>photos in the National Library and National Archives of Canada alone, >>>just a short walk down the street. There are millions more in >>>provincial, municipal, university, and other archives across the >>>country, and even more in family archives, in shoe boxes, photo albums, >>>envelopes, and small paper bags. These photographs are an integral part >>>of the heritage and culture of Canadian society. They tell us and show >>>us who we are, what we do, and where we come from. >>> >>> The recommendations members of Parliament will make on copyright >>>protection for photographs will have immediate economic implications >>>for professional photographers, but they will also affect Canadian >>>culture and heritage. The status report discusses Bill S-16, a private >>>member's bill in the Senate. The amendments to the Copyright Act in >>>that bill reflect the needs and interests of professional >>>photographers. We believe the bill and the status report outline the >>>issues in a very narrow way, addressing specific problems but leaving >>>out other important considerations, considerations that are important >>>to us. >>> >>> Committee members have heard the view of professional photographers >>>and will hear that of newspapers. They have important and legitimate >>>interests the committee needs to hear, and we agree with that. What I >>>can bring to you this afternoon is quite a different perspective: the >>>archival point of view. Archival holdings contain photographs by >>>professional photographers, but these represent only a small fraction >>>of the photographs taken in this country and a small fraction of the >>>historical photographs found in Canadian archives. The vast majority of >>>the photographs in our archives are taken by ordinary people like you >>>and me, non-professional photographers. >>> >>> Let me tell you a little bit about my world. The stakeholders I >>>represent are the people who are entrusted to collect, preserve, and >>>make available for historical research photographs taken by ordinary >>>Canadians as well as by professional photographers ten, twenty, fifty, >>>a hundred, and even more years after a photo is taken. This is what >>>archivists do; it's what I do. >>> >>> These photos are an integral and important part of our national >>>heritage. Any recommendations the committee makes concerning copyright >>>protection for photographs must ensure that the photographs in archives >>>can be used for research and study purposes and don't descend into a >>>bureaucratic black hole where they are not accessible to Canadians. And >>>I'm talking about over the long term, not the short term, necessarily, >>>or even the medium term. >>> >>> There are many copyright problems with archival photographs taken >>>by ordinary Canadians. Most often, the person who took the photograph >>>is unknown. Your uncle Joe, your cousin Sally, and your next-door >>>neighbour don't sign their photographs. I don't know who took most of >>>the photographs in my own family albums, particularly the ones that are >>>a little bit older than I am. Without the information about who took >>>the photograph, it is impossible to locate the copyright owner. It is >>>therefore impossible to get permission for or to give permission to our >>>researchers to use the photograph. If a researcher cannot get >>>permission to use the photo, it sits in copyright limbo, and valuable >>>historical research becomes impossible. >>> >>> >>>* * * THIS SAME MESSAGE HAS TO GET THROUGH TO THAT LIST OF SENATORS >>>ABOVE. And it has to be done on or before next Tuesday. * * * >>> >>>Some more of what Nancy had to say (again, this is dynamite stuff): >>> >>> >>> >>> The same questions are much more difficult and complex when >>>examined from the point of view of an archivist responsible for >>>providing access to millions of photographs for which there is no >>>information about who owns the copyright and who took the photo, let >>>alone when that person died. >>> >>> CIPPIC, who we just heard from, has put forward an interesting >>>solution to address some of the issues I'm raising. They suggest giving >>>different copyright protection to domestic and commercial photographs >>>taken by professional photographers. We think it's an innovative >>>solution, although, as it stands, as we have seen it, we don't believe >>>the suggestion is workable or practical for the long term. As well, we >>>think it addresses only part of the problem. >>> >>> I don't have legislation to suggest to the committee. I wish I had >>>a magic wand that could fix all of this for all of us sitting at this >>>end of the table, but I don't. What I do suggest is that we need to >>>identify solutions other than those found in the status report. We need >>>a copyright law that protects the economic interests of professional >>>photographers and at the same time provides access to the vast >>>photographic collections that have historical rather than commercial >>>value. That's probably most of the photographs taken in this country. >>> >>> I don't know what the possible solutions are. I do know that policy >>>analysts in the Departments of Heritage and Industry are trained to do >>>this work. We're ready and willing, and in fact eager, to sit down and >>>work with them and with other stakeholders to come up with viable >>>solutions. >>> >>> Going forward with amendments based on a private member's bill that >>>was drafted to address the problems of professional photographers will >>>not meet the needs of all the stakeholders affected by this >>>legislation. This would not serve Canadians well. >>> >>> I want to be very clear that I think the economic interests of >>>professional photographers and other creators have to be considered, >>>and have to be considered very seriously. We are fully prepared to do >>>this. However, the interests of other stakeholders also need to be >>>considered. This means including the interests of researchers and the >>>archives and archivists who are responsible for acquiring, storing, >>>preserving, and making available the documentary heritage contained in >>>the many millions of photographs in archival collections across this >>>country. >>> >>> My suggestion to the committee is that it recommend to the >>>responsible departments that policy options be identified on the >>>ownership, authorship, and term of copyright protection for photographs >>>that consider all the stakeholder interests affected, including the >>>economic interests of professional photographers and the interests of >>>all the ordinary citizens who take photographs and record the visual >>>history of our country while expecting that these will be available in >>>future generations. >>> >>> The archival community believes very strongly that there is a need >>>for serious policy analysis and public discussion as an integral part >>>of the process for change in copyright legislation. Copyright >>>legislation for photographs has important implications for public >>>policy, affecting all Canadians within our society, not just one >>>constituency or another. There are Canadians who would not be >>>considered traditional stakeholders who want a voice in the debate on >>>these public policy issues. The process should include an opportunity >>>for full and open discussion and exploration of the public policy >>>issues by a wide representation of Canadian society rather than a >>>pressure-cooker atmosphere where powerful lobbyists dominate the >>>debate. We believe this approach can help build true public consensus >>>on these important issues. >>> >>> Finally, I would like to leave with the committee what we think is >>>an important guiding principle: a robust public domain is an essential >>>element of an informed and participatory society. Copyright law grants >>>a limited monopoly to copyright owners. Copyright protection does not >>>extend beyond original expression, nor does it last for an indefinite >>>period of time. Facts and ideas remain outside the scope of copyright. >>>At the end of a specified period of time, even protected works fall >>>into the public domain. >>> >>> In the view of the Bureau of Canadian Archivists, safeguarding the >>>public domain and keeping it robust is as fundamentally important as >>>protecting the rights of individual and corporate owners of copyright. >>> >>> >>> As you said yourself, the logistical issue of trying to ascertain >>>who the rights holder is, and is this person dead or alive, 50 years >>>after the fact.... It sounds so simple when you're doing it for >>>today: "Yes, this photographer has a business; yes, he or she knows >>>when the photographs were taken and knows who the photographer was who >>>took it." It's very straightforward. But 50 years down the line you're >>>in a very different situation and you are in a never-never land. That's >>>what we're saying. >>> >>> We have people who show up at our door, and the photograph is >>>there; it's in front of them. We have it and we're willing to provide >>>access to it, but we have no idea who the copyright holder is and what >>>the term of protection is. >>> >>> This is a complicated issue. It's not just a question of fixing a >>>little bit here and a little bit there. You're putting a finger in the >>>dike and you're exploding the ground behind you. >>> >>> There's a problem. >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>Ms. Nancy Marrelli: I just want to disagree with Monsieur Cornellier, >>>who has said several times that it is simpler to simply do this, that, >>>or the other thing. >>> >>> I think the problem is that you're talking, Monsieur Cornellier, >>>about a very particular body of photographs. There are many different >>>kinds of photographs out there in Canada, and I think what's simple in >>>one situation is not always simple in another. I think we all >>>sympathize with the problem you've brought up--certainly I do--but I >>>can't say it's okay to sort of throw out the baby with the bathwater >>>because you have a problem. We have to find a better fix to this >>>problem. >>> >>>Here are the committee documents: >>> >>>http://www.parl.gc.ca/committee/CommitteePublication.aspx?SourceId=80836 >>> >>>http://www.parl.gc.ca/committee/CommitteePublication.aspx?SourceId=80837 >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>The way to unsubscribe from the list is as follows. >>>Send a message to majordomo@ualberta.ca >>>and in the message area, type >>> >>>unsubscribe arcan-l >>> >>>then send the message. >>> >>>PLEASE DO NOT SEND AN UNSUBSCRIBE MESSAGE >>>ADDRESSED TO ARCAN-L@MAJORDOMO.UALBERTA.CA >>>--- >>>Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. >>>Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). >>>Version: 6.0.782 / Virus Database: 528 - Release Date: 22/10/2004 >>> >>> >>>==== CANADA-CENSUS-CAMPAIGN Mailing List ==== >>>Read Gordon A. Watts' column on Post 1901 Census issues at >>> http://globalgazette.net >>> >>> >>> >>==== CANADA-CENSUS-CAMPAIGN Mailing List ==== >>How to unsubscribe from Mail Mode. Send a message to >>CANADA-CENSUS-CAMPAIGN-L-request@rootsweb.com that contains >>(in the Subject line and body of the message) the command >>-- unsubscribe -- and no additional text. >> >> >> > > >==== CANADA-CENSUS-CAMPAIGN Mailing List ==== >How to unsubscribe from Mail Mode. Send a message to >CANADA-CENSUS-CAMPAIGN-L-request@rootsweb.com that contains >(in the Subject line and body of the message) the command >-- unsubscribe -- and no additional text. > > > > >==== CANADA-CENSUS-CAMPAIGN Mailing List ==== >How to unsubscribe from Digest Mode. Send a message to >CANADA-CENSUS-CAMPAIGN-D-request@rootsweb.com that contains >(in the Subject line and body of the message) the command >-- unsubscribe -- and no additional text. > > > >

Adele -- Liza Frulla will forward the letter to David Emerson. Muriel M. Davidson ----- Original Message ----- From: Adele Turner To: Zed.P@parl.gc.ca ; CANADA-CENSUS-CAMPAIGN-L@rootsweb.com Cc: Gordon Watts ; frulla.l@parl.gc.ca Sent: Wednesday, November 03, 2004 4:14 PM Subject: RE:Reply from Paul Zed.... Want a reply re: Post 1901 Historical Census Mr. Paul Zed: Thank you for your letter dated October 20th that I received yesterday and I quote from it: Dear Ms. Turner: Thank you for your letter in which you outline your concerns regarding the release of Census information. I appreciate you taking the time to write. I have forwarded a copy of your letter to the Honourable Liza Frulla Minister of Canada Heritage for her reply. Kind regards, Signature (Paul Zed) Paul Zed C.c. Honourable Liza Frulla Minister of Canadian Heritage UNQUOTE I wish you to know that David Emerson is the person in charge of StatsCan. StatsCan is the department that we are having issues. I have written to Hon. Emerson and to Hon Liza Frulla myself. All I want to know is when this Bill comes to the floor of the House of Commons are you in favour of "preservation of our historical documents"? Or, do you want them destroyed? Thank you in advance for answering this question. Adele Turner North Vancouver, BC P.S. Just for your edification, I received a letter today from Hon. Liza Frulla's correspondence secretary stating "thank you but I have forwarded this letter on to Hon. David Emerson since this matter falls under his jurisdiction" and she didn't answer my question either. Another letter "passing the buck" so to speak. It gets really frustration trying find out how the MP's in office plan to vote when the Bill gets presented on the floor of the House of Commons. P.P.S. You also enclosed a copy of the letter you sent to Hon. Liza Frulla but it looks like it was a form letter as this is what it says and I quote: Dear Minister Frulla: I have forwarded to you a copy of a letter from Ms. Adele Turner. In this letter, Ms. Davidson voices her concern regarding the Post 1901 Canadian Census. I would ask that you consider her letter. Kind regards, Paul Zed UNQUOTE It appears you have just been forwarding ALL letters/emails to Hon. Frulla AND you are using letter version #9 in reply to this census correspondence that you receive. However, you forgot to change all the surnames in it. Thank you. Adele Turner -----Original Message----- From: Adele Turner [mailto:ajturner@shaw.ca] Sent: Wednesday, October 13, 2004 1:34 PM To: Zed.P@parl.gc.ca Subject: Want a reply re: Post 1901 Historical Census Mr. Paul Zed: First of all, please accept my congratulations and best wishes for winning your New Brunswick riding. Please do us proud while serving all Canadians across the country and to finally take a personal stand on whether you desire to preserve Canadian history. Don't forget, you are answerable to ALL Canadians not just to those in your riding....when you vote in the House of Commons, you vote for all Canadians and your vote effects us all. I need to know HOW YOU stand on the Post 1901 Historic Census? Do you support its preservation or its destruction? I sure hope in the future that it will not be typical of your office to ignore correspondence sent to you or worse still by sending a "thank you letter.then stating I have passed on your concerns to Mr. Emerson whose responsibility this belongs". I HAVE written to him too and I heard nothing from him. If I eventually do, probably it will be another "thank you for your letter and your concerns, I have passed it on to Statistics Canada". PLEASE DON'T PASS THE BUCK AGAIN. I just want an answer to my question. It can't be that difficult to do take a stand. My goal, as a member of the Canada (Save Our) Census Committee, is to draw your attention to the Chief Statistician's refusal to release control for the 1911 Census records to the National Archivist. According to law, the 1911 Census should have been released June 1, 2003 and to date this has not happened. Legally, the Chief Statistician should immediately transfer all national treasures such as the 92-year-old Canadian Census to the control of the National Archivist for safekeeping and not destroyed as Dr. Ivan Fellegi wishes. You may or not be aware that for the past seven or so years, there has been a public campaign by genealogists and historians have been seeking to regain the public access to Historic Census records after 1901 that has been improperly, (and believed illegally), withheld from public access by Canada's Chief Statistician, Dr. Ivan P. Fellegi. The campaign has sought to regain the same unrestricted access to records after 1906 that has been available for 240 years of Census records up to that time. We have made submissions and provided more than 65,000 petition signatures in an effort to voice our concerns for all who are searching for their historic family information. A history of our struggles with the Chief Statistician is well documented on our website, www.globalgenealogy.com/Census. Included here are findings of an Expert Panel, and the results of cross-Canada Town Hall meetings, which all show agreement that there was misinterpretation on the part of the Chief Statis! tician with relation to the instructions given to Enumerators. Our law presently states that release of Census data must occur 92 years after collection. During the last session of Parliament there was an attempt to push through Bill S-13, supposedly to 'correct' a deficiency, (a deficiency only perceived by the Chief Statistician). Thankfully Parliament closed down in time to prevent passage, which ultimately would have done nothing to correct anything, except add an additional 20 more unnecessary years to the release time, and provide the Chief Statistician with more control. Most other countries in the world vary in release date from 70 to 100 years. Canadian taxpayers fund a Heritage Ministry, and what is more meaningful to our heritage and history than knowing and understanding our origins and ancestry, to say nothing of valuable medical information to be found. Mr. Wayne Easter has stated thus "In this age when criticism is leveled at our educational institutions for not making Canadian history courses readily available to our students, this attempt by Stats Can to further remove Canadians from their recorded historical roots must not be allowed to happen". The only resolution acceptable must be the same unrestricted public access for records after 1906, as is presently available for the existing 240 years of records up to that date. Access to these records is currently permitted under The Access to Information and Privacy Acts, and no legislative changes should be necessary for us to view these or any future records. What is required is a government which will live up to the pre-election promises the Prime Minister made of less interference by bureaucrats, and as well would require the Chief Statistician to obey the laws of the land. To date we have not had such a government. After all, the Chief Statistician does not have the legal right to enact or propose laws. His is an appointed position. Perhaps he has served his usefulness plus he has passed his legal retirement age when it is compulsory for all Canadians to retire. We would request that you introduce a Government Bill which would add to the Statistics Act, a single clause similar to the following: "Original schedules of Census or authentic copies thereof shall, not later than thirty (30) years following collection, be transferred to the care and control of the National Archivist for subsequent public access in accordance with provisions of the Access to Information and Privacy Acts, and Regulations attached thereto." In closing, I hope to hear in the near future that an "original" promise voted into law by government will finally be kept. Over the years, so many promises have been made to the Canadian people have been broken by government. A couple of the broken promises made by government are the discontinuation of the GST plus the Income Tax that was to be discontinued after WWI. Neither promise was ever kept when they got voted into office. And those are but two unkept promises. So PLEASE don't give me the same old rhetoric about the Right to Privacy. My Dad at age 90 years wasn't even born when the 1911 Census was conducted. So whose Right to Privacy are you pretending to preserve? It certainly isn't my Dad's. So please help us correct this potentially tragic destruction to Canada's past and its history. I would really appreciate receiving confirmation by email whether you support our cause or not so that we can post your reply on our website. Then these letters will cease. Thanking you in advance for your PROMPT reply to this email Yours respectfully, (Miss) Adele J. Turner Canada Census Committee Member - Save our Census #67 - 1947 Purcell Way North Vancouver, BC V7J 3H4 604-987-5137 ajturner@shaw.ca

Debates of the Senate (Hansard) 1st Session, 38th Parliament, Volume 142, Issue 11 Tuesday, November 2, 2004 The Honourable Dan Hays, Speaker Statistics Act Bill to Amend—First Reading Hon. Bill Rompkey (Deputy Leader of the Government) presented Bill S-18, to amend the Statistics Act. Bill read first time. The Hon. the Speaker: Honourable senators, when shall this bill be read a second time? On motion of Senator Rompkey, bill placed on the Orders of the Day for second reading two days hence. __________________________________________________________________ The Senate of Canada Order Paper and Notice Paper Issue 12, Wednesday, November 3, 2004 ORDERS OF THE DAY GOVERNMENT BUSINESS Bills No. 1. November 2, 2004—Resuming debate on the motion of the Honourable Senator Harb, seconded by the Honourable Senator Adams, for the second reading of Bill S-17, An Act to implement an agreement, conventions and protocols concluded between Canada and Gabon, Ireland, Armenia, Oman and Azerbaijan for the avoidance of double taxation and the prevention of fiscal evasion. For Thursday, November 4, 2004 No. 1. November 2, 2004—Second reading of Bill S-18, An Act to amend the Statistics Act. Inquiries Nil Motions Nil Reports of Committees Nil

You beat me to it Leland. It is S-18. Thanks. Gordon ----- Original Message ----- From: "Leland Harvie" <lharvie@ca.inter.net> To: <CANADA-CENSUS-CAMPAIGN-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Wednesday, November 03, 2004 10:58 AM Subject: [CCC] Is this the new bill, S-18? Debates of the Senate (Hansard) 1st Session, 38th Parliament, Volume 142, Issue 11 Tuesday, November 2, 2004 The Honourable Dan Hays, Speaker Statistics Act Bill to Amend-First Reading Hon. Bill Rompkey (Deputy Leader of the Government) presented Bill S-18, to amend the Statistics Act. Bill read first time. The Hon. the Speaker: Honourable senators, when shall this bill be read a second time? On motion of Senator Rompkey, bill placed on the Orders of the Day for second reading two days hence. __________________________________________________________________ The Senate of Canada Order Paper and Notice Paper Issue 12, Wednesday, November 3, 2004 ORDERS OF THE DAY GOVERNMENT BUSINESS Bills No. 1. November 2, 2004-Resuming debate on the motion of the Honourable Senator Harb, seconded by the Honourable Senator Adams, for the second reading of Bill S-17, An Act to implement an agreement, conventions and protocols concluded between Canada and Gabon, Ireland, Armenia, Oman and Azerbaijan for the avoidance of double taxation and the prevention of fiscal evasion. For Thursday, November 4, 2004 No. 1. November 2, 2004-Second reading of Bill S-18, An Act to amend the Statistics Act. Inquiries Nil Motions Nil Reports of Committees Nil ==== CANADA-CENSUS-CAMPAIGN Mailing List ==== How to unsubscribe from Digest Mode. Send a message to CANADA-CENSUS-CAMPAIGN-D-request@rootsweb.com that contains (in the Subject line and body of the message) the command -- unsubscribe -- and no additional text.

Thank you very much for your reply to my email Mr. Chong. I have forwarded it to our Co-Chairpersons so that they can record your reply. I hope that this means that when this BILL comes to a vote on the floor of the House of Commons that we CAN count on your support. You can monitor it by going to the following site: http://www.globalgenealogy.com/Census/Index6.htm You can also go to this same site and download petitions (House of Commons & Senate) if you wish to support this with a signature. Once again, thank you for your support, (Miss) Adele Turner North Vancouver, B C -----Original Message----- From: Chong, Michael - Riding 1B [mailto:ChongM1B@parl.gc.ca] Sent: Wednesday, November 03, 2004 12:09 PM To: ajturner@shaw.ca Subject: Post 1901 Historical Census Dear Miss Turner: Thank you for your email expressing support for the release of post-1901 census records. I appreciate knowing your views on this issue and am pleased to be given the opportunity of providing you with our position. The Conservative Party supports the preservation of census records and the subsequent transfer of these records to the National Archives for public release. We believe that keeping the records confidential for the historical 92-year period is an adequate length of time, and that this is generally consistent with the practice in Britain and the United States, where records are kept confidential for 100 and 72 years respectively. Sincerely, Karen Townsend, Constituency Assistant for Michael Chong, M.P. Wellington-Halton Hills

Mr. Paul Zed: Thank you for your letter dated October 20th that I received yesterday and I quote from it: Dear Ms. Turner: Thank you for your letter in which you outline your concerns regarding the release of Census information. I appreciate you taking the time to write. I have forwarded a copy of your letter to the Honourable Liza Frulla Minister of Canada Heritage for her reply. Kind regards, Signature (Paul Zed) Paul Zed C.c. Honourable Liza Frulla Minister of Canadian Heritage UNQUOTE I wish you to know that David Emerson is the person in charge of StatsCan. StatsCan is the department that we are having issues. I have written to Hon. Emerson and to Hon Liza Frulla myself. All I want to know is when this Bill comes to the floor of the House of Commons are you in favour of "preservation of our historical documents"? Or, do you want them destroyed? Thank you in advance for answering this question. Adele Turner North Vancouver, BC P.S. Just for your edification, I received a letter today from Hon. Liza Frulla's correspondence secretary stating "thank you but I have forwarded this letter on to Hon. David Emerson since this matter falls under his jurisdiction" and she didn't answer my question either. Another letter "passing the buck" so to speak. It gets really frustration trying find out how the MP's in office plan to vote when the Bill gets presented on the floor of the House of Commons. P.P.S. You also enclosed a copy of the letter you sent to Hon. Liza Frulla but it looks like it was a form letter as this is what it says and I quote: Dear Minister Frulla: I have forwarded to you a copy of a letter from Ms. Adele Turner. In this letter, Ms. Davidson voices her concern regarding the Post 1901 Canadian Census. I would ask that you consider her letter. Kind regards, Paul Zed UNQUOTE It appears you have just been forwarding ALL letters/emails to Hon. Frulla AND you are using letter version #9 in reply to this census correspondence that you receive. However, you forgot to change all the surnames in it. Thank you. Adele Turner -----Original Message----- From: Adele Turner [mailto:ajturner@shaw.ca] Sent: Wednesday, October 13, 2004 1:34 PM To: Zed.P@parl.gc.ca Subject: Want a reply re: Post 1901 Historical Census Mr. Paul Zed: First of all, please accept my congratulations and best wishes for winning your New Brunswick riding. Please do us proud while serving all Canadians across the country and to finally take a personal stand on whether you desire to preserve Canadian history. Don't forget, you are answerable to ALL Canadians not just to those in your riding....when you vote in the House of Commons, you vote for all Canadians and your vote effects us all. I need to know HOW YOU stand on the Post 1901 Historic Census? Do you support its preservation or its destruction? I sure hope in the future that it will not be typical of your office to ignore correspondence sent to you or worse still by sending a "thank you letter…then stating I have passed on your concerns to Mr. Emerson whose responsibility this belongs". I HAVE written to him too and I heard nothing from him. If I eventually do, probably it will be another "thank you for your letter and your concerns, I have passed it on to Statistics Canada". PLEASE DON’T PASS THE BUCK AGAIN. I just want an answer to my question. It can’t be that difficult to do take a stand. My goal, as a member of the Canada (Save Our) Census Committee, is to draw your attention to the Chief Statistician’s refusal to release control for the 1911 Census records to the National Archivist. According to law, the 1911 Census should have been released June 1, 2003 and to date this has not happened. Legally, the Chief Statistician should immediately transfer all national treasures such as the 92-year-old Canadian Census to the control of the National Archivist for safekeeping and not destroyed as Dr. Ivan Fellegi wishes. You may or not be aware that for the past seven or so years, there has been a public campaign by genealogists and historians have been seeking to regain the public access to Historic Census records after 1901 that has been improperly, (and believed illegally), withheld from public access by Canada's Chief Statistician, Dr. Ivan P. Fellegi. The campaign has sought to regain the same unrestricted access to records after 1906 that has been available for 240 years of Census records up to that time. We have made submissions and provided more than 65,000 petition signatures in an effort to voice our concerns for all who are searching for their historic family information. A history of our struggles with the Chief Statistician is well documented on our website, www.globalgenealogy.com/Census. Included here are findings of an Expert Panel, and the results of cross-Canada Town Hall meetings, which all show agreement that there was misinterpretation on the part of the Chief Statistician with relation to the instructions given to Enumerators. Our law presently states that release of Census data must occur 92 years after collection. During the last session of Parliament there was an attempt to push through Bill S-13, supposedly to ‘correct’ a deficiency, (a deficiency only perceived by the Chief Statistician). Thankfully Parliament closed down in time to prevent passage, which ultimately would have done nothing to correct anything, except add an additional 20 more unnecessary years to the release time, and provide the Chief Statistician with more control. Most other countries in the world vary in release date from 70 to 100 years. Canadian taxpayers fund a Heritage Ministry, and what is more meaningful to our heritage and history than knowing and understanding our origins and ancestry, to say nothing of valuable medical information to be found. Mr. Wayne Easter has stated thus "In this age when criticism is leveled at our educational institutions for not making Canadian history courses readily available to our students, this attempt by Stats Can to further remove Canadians from their recorded historical roots must not be allowed to happen". The only resolution acceptable must be the same unrestricted public access for records after 1906, as is presently available for the existing 240 years of records up to that date. Access to these records is currently permitted under The Access to Information and Privacy Acts, and no legislative changes should be necessary for us to view these or any future records. What is required is a government which will live up to the pre-election promises the Prime Minister made of less interference by bureaucrats, and as well would require the Chief Statistician to obey the laws of the land. To date we have not had such a government. After all, the Chief Statistician does not have the legal right to enact or propose laws. His is an appointed position. Perhaps he has served his usefulness plus he has passed his legal retirement age when it is compulsory for all Canadians to retire. We would request that you introduce a Government Bill which would add to the Statistics Act, a single clause similar to the following: "Original schedules of Census or authentic copies thereof shall, not later than thirty (30) years following collection, be transferred to the care and control of the National Archivist for subsequent public access in accordance with provisions of the Access to Information and Privacy Acts, and Regulations attached thereto." In closing, I hope to hear in the near future that an "original" promise voted into law by government will finally be kept. Over the years, so many promises have been made to the Canadian people have been broken by government. A couple of the broken promises made by government are the discontinuation of the GST plus the Income Tax that was to be discontinued after WWI. Neither promise was ever kept when they got voted into office. And those are but two unkept promises. So PLEASE don’t give me the same old rhetoric about the Right to Privacy. My Dad at age 90 years wasn’t even born when the 1911 Census was conducted. So whose Right to Privacy are you pretending to preserve? It certainly isn’t my Dad’s. So please help us correct this potentially tragic destruction to Canada's past and its history. I would really appreciate receiving confirmation by email whether you support our cause or not so that we can post your reply on our website. Then these letters will cease. Thanking you in advance for your PROMPT reply to this email Yours respectfully, (Miss) Adele J. Turner Canada Census Committee Member – Save our Census #67 - 1947 Purcell Way North Vancouver, BC V7J 3H4 604-987-5137 ajturner@shaw.ca

Dear friends: It is my great pleasure to inform you that after years of negotiation I can finally announce that the government has my unqualified support, and indeed the support of the leaders of the Canada Census Campaign, the Canadian Historical Society and the Association of Canadian Archivists. I have attached a copy of the text of the bill, as well as copies of the press release that I will be putting out tomorrow. You will see that the additional 20 year rule that would limit our access to census records has been eliminated! There will be no restrictions to the use of census information 92 years after the date of the census. We were very concerned for a long time that the "opt-in" clause would destroy the census as a historical tool. That too has been softened by Statistics Canada. They have now conceded that such a clause could have detrimental effects on the historical record. As a result, they have agreed to review that section after 2 censuses have been completed. We will have an opportunity to look at how this section will work in practice and then deal with any issues that arise. You all should know that none of this would have happened without the hard work of Minister David Emerson, the minister now responsible for Statistics Canada. When I first mentioned this issue to him this summer he told me that he thought the census should be released, and he did not see why he couldn't resolve the issue quickly. He has lived up to his word. Over the last few months he has stayed in close communication with me and it has allowed me to have significant influence on the text of this bill, and has produced a bill that I am proud of. I hope that all of you will join me in supporting this bill. We have made remarkable gains in this fight. We can now guarantee that all census returns from 1911 to 2001 will be released in a timely manner. Some will be disappointed that people will have the option to withhold their censuses from the historical record, but even that issue will be reviewed in due course. I wanted also to take the time to thank each and every one of you for all of your work on this file. It has been a long journey. I can now say with confidence that the war has been won, and we have been able to gain real access to Canada's history. If anyone has any questions, please feel free to contact either me or my assistant Jeff. We're more than happy to discuss all of the details with you. Yours truly, Hon. Lorna Milne

I corrected the accents hoping I did not change any words... J'ai corrigé les accents, j'espère que j'ai pas changer certain mot... Victor Luce From: "Gordon A. Watts" <gordon_watts@telus.net> To: "Canada Census Campaign" <CANADA-CENSUS-CAMPAIGN-L@rootsweb.com> Subject: Post 1901 Census - New Bill presented Date: Tue, 2 Nov 2004 12:31:18 -0800 Organization: Canada Census Campaign X-Mailer: Microsoft Outlook Express 6.00.2800.1437 Greetings All. FYI ----- Original Message ----- From: "Milne, Lorna: SEN" <MILNEL@SEN.PARL.GC.CA> To: <CANADA-CENSUS-CAMPAIGN-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Tuesday, November 02, 2004 12:13 PM Subject: VICTORY Dear friends: It is my great pleasure to inform you that after years of negotiation I can finally announce that the government has my unqualified support, and indeed the support of the leaders of the Canada Census Campaign, the Canadian Historical Society and the Association of Canadian Archivists. I have attached a copy of the text of the bill, as well as copies of the press release that I will be putting out tomorrow. You will see that the additional 20 year rule that would limit our access to census records has been eliminated! There will be no restrictions to the use of census information 92 years after the date of the census. We were very concerned for a long time that the ‘’ opt-in ‘ clause would destroy the census as a historical tool. That too has been softened by Statistics Canada. They have now conceded that such a clause could have detrimental effects on the historical record. As a result, they have agreed to review that section after 2 censuses have been completed. We will have an opportunity to look at how this section will work in practice and then deal with any issues that arise. You all should know that none of this would have happened without the hard work of Minister David Emerson, the minister now responsible for Statistics Canada. When I first mentioned this issue to him this summer he told me that he thought the census should be released, and he did not see why he couldn’t resolve the issue quickly. He has lived up to his word. Over the last few months he has stayed in close communication with me and it has allowed me to have significant influence on the text of this bill, and has produced a bill that I am proud of. I hope that all of you will join me in supporting this bill. We have made remarkable gains in this fight. We can now guarantee that all census returns from 1911 to 2001 will be released in a timely manner. Some will be disappointed that people will have the option to withhold their censuses from the historical record, but even that issue will be reviewed in due course. I wanted also to take the time to thank each and every one of you for all of your work on this file. It has been a long journey. I can now say with confidence that the war has been won, and we have been able to gain real access to Canada’s history. If anyone has any questions, please feel free to contact either me or my assistant Jeff. We’re more than happy to discuss all of the details with you. Yours truly, Hon. Lorna Milne ============== Bill S- An Act to amend the Statistics Act 1. The Statistics Act is amended by adding the following after asection 18: 18.1 (1) The information contained in the returns of each census of population taken between 1910 and 2005 is no longer subject to sections 17 and 18 ninety-two years after the census is taken. (2) The information contained in the returns of each census of population taken is 2006 or later is no longer subject to sections 17 and 18 ninety-two years after the census is taken, but only if the person to whom the information relates consents, at the time of the census, to the release of the information ninety-two years later. (3) When sections 17 and 18 cease to apply to information referred to in subsection (1) or (2), the information shall be placed under the care and control of the Library and Archives of Canada. 2. (1) No later than two years before the taking of the third census of population under section 19 of the Statistics Act after the coming into force of this Act, the administration and operation of subsection 18.1(2) of the Statistics Act as enacted by section 1, shall be reviewed by any committee of the Senate, the House of Commons or both Houses of Parliament that may be designated for that purpose. (2) The committee shall submit a report to the Senate, the House of Commons or both Houses of Parliament, as the case may be, in relation to the review that includes a statement of any changes to the administration of subsection 18.2(2) that the committee recommends. (**French version of the bill will be available soon. No electronic copy was available at the time of this email). MILNE LAUDS MINISTER’ EMERSON’S WORK ON RELEASE OF HISTORIC CENSUS RECORDS OTTAWA ­ November 2, 2004 ­ This afternoon the government announced the long-awaited legislation that will govern the release of census information. Senator Lorna Milne (Liberal ­ Ontario), who has been fighting for the release of historic census records since 1998, was quick to proclaim that the bill meets the needs of Canada’s genealogists, historians, and archivists. ‘’ Under Bill S-XX Canadians will have unrestricted access to all censuses taken before this date immediately upon the 92nd anniversary of each census. This is the kind of access that Canadians deserve and have been fighting for since 1998.’’ Milne explained. S-XX also contains provisions that will see Canadians indicate on future census forms whether or not they want to have their census information released after 92 years for future research. The government bill follows the release of the 1906 census in January of 2003, and a government commissioned expert panel that found that there were no legal barriers to the release of historic census information. For six years Canada’s research communities and the government have been debating how to balance the need for privacy against the importance of the census as a historic document. Until now, no one has been able to find a system for access to the records that everyone was willing to agree to. Senator Milne credits Minister Emerson’s work on the file for finding that agreement. ‘’ Minister Emerson decided from the outset that he was going to solve this issue quickly and with common sense. ‘’ Milne revealed. ‘’ He was able to quickly identify the fundamental needs of both Statistics Canada and Canada’s researchers. This bill accommodates both sets of needs. ‘’ In addition to Minister Emerson and Senator Milne, the Canada Census Committee, the Canadian Historians Association, and the Association of Canadian Archivists all endorse this bill without amendment. ‘’ With that kind of support, I would hope that the bill would pass through both Houses of Parliament quickly. ‘’ said Milne. For more information, please contact Jeff Paul at 613-947-9744 or 613-715-2965. - 30 - LORNA MILNE FÉLICITE LE MINISTRE EMERSON DE SES DÉMARCHES POUR PERMETTRE LA DIVULGATION DES DONNÉES DE RECENSEMENT HISTORIQUES OTTAWA ­ Le 2 novembre 2004 ­ Cet après-midi, le gouvernement a annoncé la loi trés attendue qui régira la divulgation des données de recensement. La sénatrice Lorna Milne (Parti libéral ­ Ontario), qui lutte depuis 1998 en faveur de la communication des données de recensement historiques, s’est empressée d’indiquer que le projet de loi répond aux attentes des généalogistes, des historiens et des archivistes du Canada. ‘’ Le projet de loi S-XX permettra la libre consultation des données des recensements effectués avant cette date, au 92e anniversaire de la tenue de chaque recensement. Les Canadiens doivent pouvoir consulter librement ces informations, un droit pour lequel ils luttent depuis 1998 ‘’, a précisé Mme Milne. Le projet de loi renferme également des dispositions qui permettront aux Canadiens d’indiquer sur les futurs formulaires de recensement s’ils souhaitent ou non que l’information qu’ils y inscrivent soit communiqué après 92 ans, à des fins de recherche. Le projet de loi fait suite à la publication, en janvier 2003, des données du recensement de 1906 et à la conclusion d’un comité d’experts nommé par le gouvernement selon laquelle il n’existe aucun obstacle juridique à la divulgation des données de recensement historiques. Depuis six ans, le milieu de la recherche et le gouvernement canadiens débattent des moyens de concilier la nécessité de protéger les renseignements personnels et l’importance des données de recensement en tant que documents historiques. Jusqu’à présent, personne n’a trouvé un système de consultation des documents qui fait l’unanimité. La sénatrice Milne loue les efforts faits par le ministre Emerson dans ce dossier pour trouver une entente à ce sujet. ‘’ Dès le début, le ministre Emerson a décidé qu’il allait régler cette question de façon rapide et sensée. Il a sans tardé défini les besoins essentiels de Statistique Canada et des chercheurs canadiens. Le projet de loi répond aux attentes du Ministère et des chercheurs. ‘’ Le ministre Emerson, la sénatrice Milne ainsi que le Comité de recensement du Canada, la Canadian Historians Association et la Association of Canadian Archivists approuvent tous le projet de loi sans modification. ’’Vu cet appui, j’espère que le projet de loi pourra être adopté rapidement par les deux Chambres ‘’, a ajouté Mme Milne. Pour de plus amples renseignements, veuillez communiquer avec Jeff Paul au (613) 947-9744 ou au (613) 715-2965. - 30 -

Why is it necessary for every posting on a subject to contain every previous posting in that same thread?? I subscribe in digest mode and receive the same old postings repeated numerous times every day with each new posting on the subject. ... Martin Potter > > Subject: > Copyright in Photos -- Bill S-9 -- URGENT action needed [off topic] > From: > "Muriel M. Davidson" <muriel_davidson@sympatico.ca> > Date: > Mon, 1 Nov 2004 20:06:25 -0500 > To: > CANADA-CENSUS-CAMPAIGN-L@rootsweb.com > > To: > CANADA-CENSUS-CAMPAIGN-L@rootsweb.com > > > I stand corrected, Lois!!! > >>From now on, we need to have a family history of > every snapshot we take. > > Will it also cover paintings with site online > http://www.lyndencowan.com/ > > My daughter does have a "copyright" statement there. > Using her as an example, what else should people do -- > if Bill S-9 goes through. > > Muriel M. Davidson muriel_davidson@sympatico.ca > Co-Chair, Canada Census Committee > == > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Lois Sparling > To: Muriel M. Davidson > Cc: CANADA-CENSUS-CAMPAIGN-L@rootsweb.com > Sent: Monday, November 01, 2004 7:32 PM > Subject: Re: [CCC] Copyright in Photos -- Bill S-9 -- URGENT action needed [off topic] > > Sorry to burst your bubble, Muriel, but legislation can be retro-active. Also, this Bill will not just cover photographs by professional photographs, but family snap shots, too. Imagine having to prove who took the picture and then proving that you inherited the rights to it (assuming you did) in order to have a copy made at London Drugs or wherever. > > Lois Sparling > > Muriel M. Davidson wrote: > > Hello Robbie:- > > Many thanks about Bill S-9 -- should anyone be searching > past photos, etc., he or she may be alright as I do not > honestly believe laws can be dated back to years ago. > I read something about it and am happy you mentioned it. > > The sale of digital cameras should really go up -- if the > photographers want to copyright everything, even the face of > a newborn baby -- it will be better to do this ourselves. > > Muriel > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Robber" <robber@rogers.com> > To: <CANADA-CENSUS-CAMPAIGN-L@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Monday, November 01, 2004 2:26 PM > Subject: [CCC] Copyright in Photos -- Bill S-9 -- URGENT action needed [off > topic] > > Hello everyone, > > I am forwarding the e-mail below although it is off-topic because I > believe it will be of interest to genealogists who are engaged in trying to > influence the government on the census issue. It relates to a bill before > the Senate now that will re-assign copyright from the owner/commissioner > of a photograph to the photographer. It would mean that copyright in family > portraits, baby pictures, wedding pictures, etc. would reside with the > photographer and not the family. Thus, use of the photographs in family > histories, publications, genealogy web sites, or distribution by e-mail, > would all be illegal, ie. an infringement of the photographer's copyright. > This is a simplification of the bill but more detail is available below in > the original e-mail from Wallace McLean. > > Thanks, > Rob > ======= > -----Original Message----- > From: owner-arcan-l@majordomo.srv.ualberta.ca > [mailto:owner-arcan-l@majordomo.srv.ualberta.ca]On Behalf Of Wallace > J.McLean > Sent: Thursday, October 28, 2004 11:56 PM > To: Wallace J.McLean > Cc: ARCAN-L@majordomo.srv.ualberta.ca > Subject: Re: Copyright in Photos -- Bill S-9 -- URGENT action needed > > The members of the Senate Committe on Social Affairs, Science and > Technology are: > > Kirby, Michael Chair - Lib. kirbymjl@sen.parl.gc.ca > Keon, Wilbert Joseph Deputy-Chair - C keonw@sen.parl.gc.ca > Callbeck, Catherine S. - Lib. callbc@sen.parl.gc.ca > Cochrane, Ethel M. - C cochre@sen.parl.gc.ca > Cook, Joan - Lib. cookj@sen.parl.gc.ca > Fairbairn, Joyce - Lib. fairbj@sen.parl.gc.ca > Gill, Aurélien - Lib. gilla@sen.parl.gc.ca > Johnson, Janis G. - C johnsj@sen.parl.gc.ca > LeBreton, Marjory - C lebrem@sen.parl.gc.ca > Morin, Yves - Lib. moriny@sen.parl.gc.ca > Pépin, Lucie - Lib. pepinl@sen.parl.gc.ca > Trenholme Counsell, Marilyn - Lib. counsm@sen.parl.gc.ca > > They are under the impression that Bill S-9 and its changes to > copyright in photography are benign and uncontroversial. > > Here's the committee hearing from last spring, in the House, where > Nancy Marelli delivered the archival concerns re copyright in > photographs: > > http://www.parl.gc.ca/committee/CommitteePublication.aspx?SourceId=80458 > > She said in part -- and this is absolutely fantastic, dynamite stuff: > > I'm here because there are millions of photographs in the holdings > of archival institutions across Canada. There are more than 21 million > photos in the National Library and National Archives of Canada alone, > just a short walk down the street. There are millions more in > provincial, municipal, university, and other archives across the > country, and even more in family archives, in shoe boxes, photo albums, > envelopes, and small paper bags. These photographs are an integral part > of the heritage and culture of Canadian society. They tell us and show > us who we are, what we do, and where we come from. > > The recommendations members of Parliament will make on copyright > protection for photographs will have immediate economic implications > for professional photographers, but they will also affect Canadian > culture and heritage. The status report discusses Bill S-16, a private > member's bill in the Senate. The amendments to the Copyright Act in > that bill reflect the needs and interests of professional > photographers. We believe the bill and the status report outline the > issues in a very narrow way, addressing specific problems but leaving > out other important considerations, considerations that are important > to us. > > Committee members have heard the view of professional photographers > and will hear that of newspapers. They have important and legitimate > interests the committee needs to hear, and we agree with that. What I > can bring to you this afternoon is quite a different perspective: the > archival point of view. Archival holdings contain photographs by > professional photographers, but these represent only a small fraction > of the photographs taken in this country and a small fraction of the > historical photographs found in Canadian archives. The vast majority of > the photographs in our archives are taken by ordinary people like you > and me, non-professional photographers. > > Let me tell you a little bit about my world. The stakeholders I > represent are the people who are entrusted to collect, preserve, and > make available for historical research photographs taken by ordinary > Canadians as well as by professional photographers ten, twenty, fifty, > a hundred, and even more years after a photo is taken. This is what > archivists do; it's what I do. > > These photos are an integral and important part of our national > heritage. Any recommendations the committee makes concerning copyright > protection for photographs must ensure that the photographs in archives > can be used for research and study purposes and don't descend into a > bureaucratic black hole where they are not accessible to Canadians. And > I'm talking about over the long term, not the short term, necessarily, > or even the medium term. > > There are many copyright problems with archival photographs taken > by ordinary Canadians. Most often, the person who took the photograph > is unknown. Your uncle Joe, your cousin Sally, and your next-door > neighbour don't sign their photographs. I don't know who took most of > the photographs in my own family albums, particularly the ones that are > a little bit older than I am. Without the information about who took > the photograph, it is impossible to locate the copyright owner. It is > therefore impossible to get permission for or to give permission to our > researchers to use the photograph. If a researcher cannot get > permission to use the photo, it sits in copyright limbo, and valuable > historical research becomes impossible. > > > * * * THIS SAME MESSAGE HAS TO GET THROUGH TO THAT LIST OF SENATORS > ABOVE. And it has to be done on or before next Tuesday. * * * > > Some more of what Nancy had to say (again, this is dynamite stuff): > > The same questions are much more difficult and complex when > examined from the point of view of an archivist responsible for > providing access to millions of photographs for which there is no > information about who owns the copyright and who took the photo, let > alone when that person died. > > CIPPIC, who we just heard from, has put forward an interesting > solution to address some of the issues I'm raising. They suggest giving > different copyright protection to domestic and commercial photographs > taken by professional photographers. We think it's an innovative > solution, although, as it stands, as we have seen it, we don't believe > the suggestion is workable or practical for the long term. As well, we > think it addresses only part of the problem. > > I don't have legislation to suggest to the committee. I wish I had > a magic wand that could fix all of this for all of us sitting at this > end of the table, but I don't. What I do suggest is that we need to > identify solutions other than those found in the status report. We need > a copyright law that protects the economic interests of professional > photographers and at the same time provides access to the vast > photographic collections that have historical rather than commercial > value. That's probably most of the photographs taken in this country. > > I don't know what the possible solutions are. I do know that policy > analysts in the Departments of Heritage and Industry are trained to do > this work. We're ready and willing, and in fact eager, to sit down and > work with them and with other stakeholders to come up with viable > solutions. > > Going forward with amendments based on a private member's bill that > was drafted to address the problems of professional photographers will > not meet the needs of all the stakeholders affected by this > legislation. This would not serve Canadians well. > > I want to be very clear that I think the economic interests of > professional photographers and other creators have to be considered, > and have to be considered very seriously. We are fully prepared to do > this. However, the interests of other stakeholders also need to be > considered. This means including the interests of researchers and the > archives and archivists who are responsible for acquiring, storing, > preserving, and making available the documentary heritage contained in > the many millions of photographs in archival collections across this > country. > > My suggestion to the committee is that it recommend to the > responsible departments that policy options be identified on the > ownership, authorship, and term of copyright protection for photographs > that consider all the stakeholder interests affected, including the > economic interests of professional photographers and the interests of > all the ordinary citizens who take photographs and record the visual > history of our country while expecting that these will be available in > future generations. > > The archival community believes very strongly that there is a need > for serious policy analysis and public discussion as an integral part > of the process for change in copyright legislation. Copyright > legislation for photographs has important implications for public > policy, affecting all Canadians within our society, not just one > constituency or another. There are Canadians who would not be > considered traditional stakeholders who want a voice in the debate on > these public policy issues. The process should include an opportunity > for full and open discussion and exploration of the public policy > issues by a wide representation of Canadian society rather than a > pressure-cooker atmosphere where powerful lobbyists dominate the > debate. We believe this approach can help build true public consensus > on these important issues. > > Finally, I would like to leave with the committee what we think is > an important guiding principle: a robust public domain is an essential > element of an informed and participatory society. Copyright law grants > a limited monopoly to copyright owners. Copyright protection does not > extend beyond original expression, nor does it last for an indefinite > period of time. Facts and ideas remain outside the scope of copyright. > At the end of a specified period of time, even protected works fall > into the public domain. > > In the view of the Bureau of Canadian Archivists, safeguarding the > public domain and keeping it robust is as fundamentally important as > protecting the rights of individual and corporate owners of copyright. > > > As you said yourself, the logistical issue of trying to ascertain > who the rights holder is, and is this person dead or alive, 50 years > after the fact.... It sounds so simple when you're doing it for > today: "Yes, this photographer has a business; yes, he or she knows > when the photographs were taken and knows who the photographer was who > took it." It's very straightforward. But 50 years down the line you're > in a very different situation and you are in a never-never land. That's > what we're saying. > > We have people who show up at our door, and the photograph is > there; it's in front of them. We have it and we're willing to provide > access to it, but we have no idea who the copyright holder is and what > the term of protection is. > > This is a complicated issue. It's not just a question of fixing a > little bit here and a little bit there. You're putting a finger in the > dike and you're exploding the ground behind you. > > There's a problem. > > I think the problem is that you're talking, Monsieur Cornellier, > about a very particular body of photographs. There are many different > kinds of photographs out there in Canada, and I think what's simple in > one situation is not always simple in another. I think we all > sympathize with the problem you've brought up--certainly I do--but I > can't say it's okay to sort of throw out the baby with the bathwater > because you have a problem. We have to find a better fix to this > problem. > > Here are the committee documents: > > http://www.parl.gc.ca/committee/CommitteePublication.aspx?SourceId=80836 > > http://www.parl.gc.ca/committee/CommitteePublication.aspx?SourceId=80837 > > ______________________________

MILNE LAUDS MINISTER’ EMERSON’S WORK ON RELEASE OF HISTORIC CENSUS RECORDS OTTAWA – November 2, 2004 – This afternoon the government announced long-awaited legislation that will govern the release of census information. Senator Lorna Milne (Liberal – Ontario), who has been fighting for the release of historic census records since 1998, was quick to proclaim that the bill meets the needs of Canada’s genealogists, historians, and archivists. “Under Bill S-XX Canadians will have unrestricted access to all censuses taken before this date immediately upon the 92nd anniversary of each census. This is the kind of access that Canadians deserve and have been fighting for since 1998.” Milne explained. S-XX also contains provisions that will see Canadians indicate on future census forms whether or not they want to have their census information released after 92 years for future research. The government bill follows the release of the 1906 census in January of 2003, and a government commissioned expert panel that found that there were no legal barriers to the release of historic census information. For six years Canada’s research communities and the government have been debating how to balance the need for privacy against the importance of the census as a historic document. Until now, no one has been able to find a system for access to the records that everyone was willing to agree to. Senator Milne credits Minister Emerson’s work on the file for finding that agreement. “Minister Emerson decided from the outset that he was going to solve this issue quickly and with common sense” Milne revealed. “He was able to quickly identify the fundamental needs of both Statistics Canada and Canada’s researchers. This bill accommodates both sets of needs”. In addition to Minister Emerson and Senator Milne, the Canada Census Committee, the Canadian Historians Association, and the Association of Canadian Archivists all endorse this bill without amendment. “With that kind of support, I would hope that the bill would pass through both Houses of Parliament quickly” said Milne. For more information, please contact Jeff Paul at 613-947-9744 or 613-715-2965. - 30 - LORNA MILNE FÉLICITE LE MINISTRE EMERSON DE SES DÉMARCHES POUR PERMETTRE LA DIVULGATION DES DONNÉES DE RECENSEMENT HISTORIQUES OTTAWA – Le 2 novembre 2004 – Cet après-midi, le gouvernement a annoncé la loi très attendue qui régira la divulgation des données de recensement. La sénatrice Lorna Milne (Parti libéral – Ontario), qui lutte depuis 1998 en faveur de la communication des données de recensement historiques, s’est empressée d’indiquer que le projet de loi répond aux attentes des généalogistes, des historiens et des archivistes du Canada. « Le projet de loi S­XX permettra la libre consultation des données des recensements effectués avant cette date, au 92e anniversaire de la tenue de chaque recensement. Les Canadiens doivent pouvoir consulter librement ces informations, un droit pour lequel ils luttent depuis 1998 », a précisé Mme Milne. Le projet de loi renferme également des dispositions qui permettront aux Canadiens d’indiquer sur les futurs formulaires de recensement s’ils souhaitent ou non que l’information qu’ils y inscrivent soit communiquée après 92 ans, à des fins de recherche. Le projet de loi fait suite à la publication, en janvier 2003, des données du recensement de 1906 et à la conclusion d’un comité d’experts nommé par le gouvernement selon laquelle il n’existe aucun obstacle juridique à la divulgation des données de recensement historiques. Depuis six ans, le milieu de la recherche et le gouvernement canadiens débattent des moyens de concilier la nécessité de protéger les renseignements personnels et l’importance des données de recensement en tant que documents historiques. Jusqu’à présent, personne n’a trouvé un système de consultation des documents qui fait l’unanimité. La sénatrice Milne loue les efforts faits par le ministre Emerson dans ce dossier pour trouver une entente à ce sujet. « Dès le début, le ministre Emerson a décidé qu’il allait régler cette question de façon rapide et sensée. Il a sans tardé défini les besoins essentiels de Statistique Canada et des chercheurs canadiens. Le projet de loi répond aux attentes du Ministère et des chercheurs. » Le ministre Emerson, la sénatrice Milne ainsi que le Comité de recensement du Canada, la Canadian Historians Association et la Association of Canadian Archivists approuvent tous le projet de loi sans modification. « Vu cet appui, j’espère que le projet de loi pourra être adopté rapidement par les deux Chambres », a ajouté Mme Milne. Pour de plus amples renseignements, veuillez communiquer avec Jeff Paul au (613) 947­9744 ou au (613) 715-2965. - 30 -

Bill S- An Act to amend the Statistics Act 1. The Statistics Act is amended by adding the following after asection 18: 18.1 (1) The information contained in the returns of each census of population taken between 1910 and 2005 is no longer subject to sections 17 and 18 ninety-two years after the census is taken. (2) The information contained in the returns of each census of population taken is 2006 or later is no longer subject to sections 17 and 18 ninety-two years after the census is taken, but only if the person to whom the information relates consents, at the time of the census, to the release of the information ninety-two years later. (3) When sections 17 and 18 cease to apply to information referred to in subsection (1) or (2), the information shall be placed under the care and control of the Library and Archives of Canada. 2. (1) No later than two years before the taking of the third census of population under section 19 of the Statistics Act after the coming into force of this Act, the administration and operation of subsection 18.1(2) of the Statistics Act as enacted by section 1, shall be reviewed by any committee of the Senate, the House of Commons or both Houses of Parliament that may be designated for that purpose. (2) The committee shall submit a report to the Senate, the House of Commons or both Houses of Parliament, as the case may be, in relation to the review that includes a statement of any changes to the administration of subsection 18.2(2) that the committee recommends. (**French version of the bill will be available soon. No electronic copy was available at the time of this email).

Dear friends: It is my great pleasure to inform you that after years of negotiation I can finally announce that the government has my unqualified support, and indeed the support of the leaders of the Canada Census Campaign, the Canadian Historical Society and the Association of Canadian Archivists. I have attached a copy of the text of the bill, as well as copies of the press release that I will be putting out tomorrow. You will see that the additional 20 year rule that would limit our access to census records has been eliminated! There will be no restrictions to the use of census information 92 years after the date of the census. We were very concerned for a long time that the "opt-in" clause would destroy the census as a historical tool. That too has been softened by Statistics Canada. They have now conceded that such a clause could have detrimental effects on the historical record. As a result, they have agreed to review that section after 2 censuses have been completed. We will have an opportunity to look at how this section will work in practice and then deal with any issues that arise. You all should know that none of this would have happened without the hard work of Minister David Emerson, the minister now responsible for Statistics Canada. When I first mentioned this issue to him this summer he told me that he thought the census should be released, and he did not see why he couldn't resolve the issue quickly. He has lived up to his word. Over the last few months he has stayed in close communication with me and it has allowed me to have significant influence on the text of this bill, and has produced a bill that I am proud of. I hope that all of you will join me in supporting this bill. We have made remarkable gains in this fight. We can now guarantee that all census returns from 1911 to 2001 will be released in a timely manner. Some will be disappointed that people will have the option to withhold their censuses from the historical record, but even that issue will be reviewed in due course. I wanted also to take the time to thank each and every one of you for all of your work on this file. It has been a long journey. I can now say with confidence that the war has been won, and we have been able to gain real access to Canada's history. If anyone has any questions, please feel free to contact either me or my assistant Jeff. We're more than happy to discuss all of the details with you. Yours truly, Hon. Lorna Milne

Martin. While some judicious editing in removal of a long thread of messages may be desireable in most cases when responding there are times when people simply forget to do so. When that thread of messages follows the last response it is a simple matter of reading the response and ignoring the rest that you know you have already seen. I note that you neglected to remove the long thread of messages that prompted your message before responding so you had the chance to see them again when you received your own post. That being said I would suggest that all listers, when responding to messages on the list, please edit out earlier posts leaving at most only the latest post in your response. As I have indicated before, if you have a complaint regarding the CCC list I ask that you send that complaint directly to me -- off list. Thank you. Gordon ----- Original Message ----- From: "Martin Potter" <mhpotter@iosphere.net> To: <CANADA-CENSUS-CAMPAIGN-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Tuesday, November 02, 2004 1:23 PM Subject: [CCC] Lack of editting - OT Why is it necessary for every posting on a subject to contain every previous posting in that same thread?? I subscribe in digest mode and receive the same old postings repeated numerous times every day with each new posting on the subject. ... Martin Potter

UNSUBSCRIBE ----- Original Message ----- From: <CANADA-CENSUS-CAMPAIGN-D-request@rootsweb.com> To: <CANADA-CENSUS-CAMPAIGN-D@rootsweb.com> Sent: Tuesday, November 02, 2004 10:00 AM Subject: CANADA-CENSUS-CAMPAIGN-D Digest V04 #271

Greetings All. FYI ----- Original Message ----- From: "Milne, Lorna: SEN" <MILNEL@SEN.PARL.GC.CA> To: <CANADA-CENSUS-CAMPAIGN-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Tuesday, November 02, 2004 12:13 PM Subject: VICTORY Dear friends: It is my great pleasure to inform you that after years of negotiation I can finally announce that the government has my unqualified support, and indeed the support of the leaders of the Canada Census Campaign, the Canadian Historical Society and the Association of Canadian Archivists. I have attached a copy of the text of the bill, as well as copies of the press release that I will be putting out tomorrow. You will see that the additional 20 year rule that would limit our access to census records has been eliminated! There will be no restrictions to the use of census information 92 years after the date of the census. We were very concerned for a long time that the “opt-in” clause would destroy the census as a historical tool. That too has been softened by Statistics Canada. They have now conceded that such a clause could have detrimental effects on the historical record. As a result, they have agreed to review that section after 2 censuses have been completed. We will have an opportunity to look at how this section will work in practice and then deal with any issues that arise. You all should know that none of this would have happened without the hard work of Minister David Emerson, the minister now responsible for Statistics Canada. When I first mentioned this issue to him this summer he told me that he thought the census should be released, and he did not see why he couldn’t resolve the issue quickly. He has lived up to his word. Over the last few months he has stayed in close communication with me and it has allowed me to have significant influence on the text of this bill, and has produced a bill that I am proud of. I hope that all of you will join me in supporting this bill. We have made remarkable gains in this fight. We can now guarantee that all census returns from 1911 to 2001 will be released in a timely manner. Some will be disappointed that people will have the option to withhold their censuses from the historical record, but even that issue will be reviewed in due course. I wanted also to take the time to thank each and every one of you for all of your work on this file. It has been a long journey. I can now say with confidence that the war has been won, and we have been able to gain real access to Canada’s history. If anyone has any questions, please feel free to contact either me or my assistant Jeff. We’re more than happy to discuss all of the details with you. Yours truly, Hon. Lorna Milne ============== Bill S- An Act to amend the Statistics Act 1. The Statistics Act is amended by adding the following after asection 18: 18.1 (1) The information contained in the returns of each census of population taken between 1910 and 2005 is no longer subject to sections 17 and 18 ninety-two years after the census is taken. (2) The information contained in the returns of each census of population taken is 2006 or later is no longer subject to sections 17 and 18 ninety-two years after the census is taken, but only if the person to whom the information relates consents, at the time of the census, to the release of the information ninety-two years later. (3) When sections 17 and 18 cease to apply to information referred to in subsection (1) or (2), the information shall be placed under the care and control of the Library and Archives of Canada. 2. (1) No later than two years before the taking of the third census of population under section 19 of the Statistics Act after the coming into force of this Act, the administration and operation of subsection 18.1(2) of the Statistics Act as enacted by section 1, shall be reviewed by any committee of the Senate, the House of Commons or both Houses of Parliament that may be designated for that purpose. (2) The committee shall submit a report to the Senate, the House of Commons or both Houses of Parliament, as the case may be, in relation to the review that includes a statement of any changes to the administration of subsection 18.2(2) that the committee recommends. (**French version of the bill will be available soon. No electronic copy was available at the time of this email). MILNE LAUDS MINISTER’ EMERSON’S WORK ON RELEASE OF HISTORIC CENSUS RECORDS OTTAWA – November 2, 2004 – This afternoon the government announced long-awaited legislation that will govern the release of census information. Senator Lorna Milne (Liberal – Ontario), who has been fighting for the release of historic census records since 1998, was quick to proclaim that the bill meets the needs of Canada’s genealogists, historians, and archivists. “Under Bill S-XX Canadians will have unrestricted access to all censuses taken before this date immediately upon the 92nd anniversary of each census. This is the kind of access that Canadians deserve and have been fighting for since 1998.” Milne explained. S-XX also contains provisions that will see Canadians indicate on future census forms whether or not they want to have their census information released after 92 years for future research. The government bill follows the release of the 1906 census in January of 2003, and a government commissioned expert panel that found that there were no legal barriers to the release of historic census information. For six years Canada’s research communities and the government have been debating how to balance the need for privacy against the importance of the census as a historic document. Until now, no one has been able to find a system for access to the records that everyone was willing to agree to. Senator Milne credits Minister Emerson’s work on the file for finding that agreement. “Minister Emerson decided from the outset that he was going to solve this issue quickly and with common sense” Milne revealed. “He was able to quickly identify the fundamental needs of both Statistics Canada and Canada’s researchers. This bill accommodates both sets of needs”. In addition to Minister Emerson and Senator Milne, the Canada Census Committee, the Canadian Historians Association, and the Association of Canadian Archivists all endorse this bill without amendment. “With that kind of support, I would hope that the bill would pass through both Houses of Parliament quickly” said Milne. For more information, please contact Jeff Paul at 613-947-9744 or 613-715-2965. - 30 - LORNA MILNE FÉLICITE LE MINISTRE EMERSON DE SES DÉMARCHES POUR PERMETTRE LA DIVULGATION DES DONNÉES DE RECENSEMENT HISTORIQUES OTTAWA – Le 2 novembre 2004 – Cet après-midi, le gouvernement a annoncé la loi très attendue qui régira la divulgation des données de recensement. La sénatrice Lorna Milne (Parti libéral – Ontario), qui lutte depuis 1998 en faveur de la communication des données de recensement historiques, s’est empressée d’indiquer que le projet de loi répond aux attentes des généalogistes, des historiens et des archivistes du Canada. « Le projet de loi S‑XX permettra la libre consultation des données des recensements effectués avant cette date, au 92e anniversaire de la tenue de chaque recensement. Les Canadiens doivent pouvoir consulter librement ces informations, un droit pour lequel ils luttent depuis 1998 », a précisé Mme Milne. Le projet de loi renferme également des dispositions qui permettront aux Canadiens d’indiquer sur les futurs formulaires de recensement s’ils souhaitent ou non que l’information qu’ils y inscrivent soit communiquée après 92 ans, à des fins de recherche. Le projet de loi fait suite à la publication, en janvier 2003, des données du recensement de 1906 et à la conclusion d’un comité d’experts nommé par le gouvernement selon laquelle il n’existe aucun obstacle juridique à la divulgation des données de recensement historiques. Depuis six ans, le milieu de la recherche et le gouvernement canadiens débattent des moyens de concilier la nécessité de protéger les renseignements personnels et l’importance des données de recensement en tant que documents historiques. Jusqu’à présent, personne n’a trouvé un système de consultation des documents qui fait l’unanimité. La sénatrice Milne loue les efforts faits par le ministre Emerson dans ce dossier pour trouver une entente à ce sujet. « Dès le début, le ministre Emerson a décidé qu’il allait régler cette question de façon rapide et sensée. Il a sans tardé défini les besoins essentiels de Statistique Canada et des chercheurs canadiens. Le projet de loi répond aux attentes du Ministère et des chercheurs. » Le ministre Emerson, la sénatrice Milne ainsi que le Comité de recensement du Canada, la Canadian Historians Association et la Association of Canadian Archivists approuvent tous le projet de loi sans modification. « Vu cet appui, j’espère que le projet de loi pourra être adopté rapidement par les deux Chambres », a ajouté Mme Milne. Pour de plus amples renseignements, veuillez communiquer avec Jeff Paul au (613) 947‑9744 ou au (613) 715-2965. - 30 -

Toronto Star URL http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Article_Type1&call_pageid=971358637177&c=Article&cid=1099264209316

Sorry if my comments are off topic of census - but this almost seems to be a similar type of screw-up being imposed on us. I have waded through the copy of the committee presentation and it seems to me that there is one issue not touched on. Defining the difference between professional photographers rights to copyright and the amateur photographer snapping pictures at family, vacation or other events of their own pleasure. I understand the right of the photographer, they should be able to control their product - but does their zeal to protect their personal business need to affect the rest of us, i.e. Lois Sparling's experience with a clerk at London Drugs? London Drug does after all, sell digital cameras and Christmas is coming up. Freda Stewart Calgary ----- Original Message ----- From: Lois Sparling To: dist-gen Sent: Monday, November 01, 2004 5:28 PM Subject: Copyright in Photos This is another Bill in the Senate which will makes things very, very difficult for us. I already have an insurmountable problem explaining to the clerk at London Drugs that the snap shots I have which have the stamp of a photography studio on the back are NOT copyright protected creations by that studio. The studio just stamped all the photographs it processed in its mail order developing business. She does not believe me. Imagine having to prove who took the photograph and that you inherited the rights to it in order to get a copy made. Imagine not being able to get copies of photographs of your family and your family's house, school, church, etc. found in archives and libraries. Lois Sparling -------- Original Message -------- Subject: [CCC] Copyright in Photos -- Bill S-9 -- URGENT action needed [off topic] Resent-Date: Mon, 01 Nov 2004 12:25:56 -0700 Resent-From: CANADA-CENSUS-CAMPAIGN-L@rootsweb.com Date: Mon, 01 Nov 2004 14:26:01 -0500 From: Robber <robber@rogers.com> Reply-To: robber@rogers.com To: CANADA-CENSUS-CAMPAIGN-L@rootsweb.com Hello everyone, I am forwarding the e-mail below although it is off-topic because I believe it will be of interest to genealogists who are engaged in trying to influence the government on the census issue. It relates to a bill before the Senate now that will re-assign copyright from the owner/commissioner of a photograph to the photographer. It would mean that copyright in family portraits, baby pictures, wedding pictures, etc. would reside with the photographer and not the family. Thus, use of the photographs in family histories, publications, genealogy web sites, or distribution by e-mail, would all be illegal, ie. an infringement of the photographer's copyright. This is a simplification of the bill but more detail is available below in the original e-mail from Wallace McLean. Thanks, Rob -----Original Message----- From: owner-arcan-l@majordomo.srv.ualberta.ca [mailto:owner-arcan-l@majordomo.srv.ualberta.ca]On Behalf Of Wallace J.McLean Sent: Thursday, October 28, 2004 11:56 PM To: Wallace J.McLean Cc: ARCAN-L@majordomo.srv.ualberta.ca Subject: Re: Copyright in Photos -- Bill S-9 -- URGENT action needed The members of the Senate Committe on Social Affairs, Science and Technology are: Kirby, Michael Chair - Lib. kirbymjl@sen.parl.gc.ca Keon, Wilbert Joseph Deputy-Chair - C keonw@sen.parl.gc.ca Callbeck, Catherine S. - Lib. callbc@sen.parl.gc.ca Cochrane, Ethel M. - C cochre@sen.parl.gc.ca Cook, Joan - Lib. cookj@sen.parl.gc.ca Fairbairn, Joyce - Lib. fairbj@sen.parl.gc.ca Gill, Aurélien - Lib. gilla@sen.parl.gc.ca Johnson, Janis G. - C johnsj@sen.parl.gc.ca LeBreton, Marjory - C lebrem@sen.parl.gc.ca Morin, Yves - Lib. moriny@sen.parl.gc.ca Pépin, Lucie - Lib. pepinl@sen.parl.gc.ca Trenholme Counsell, Marilyn - Lib. counsm@sen.parl.gc.ca They are under the impression that Bill S-9 and its changes to copyright in photography are benign and uncontroversial. Here's the committee hearing from last spring, in the House, where Nancy Marelli delivered the archival concerns re copyright in photographs: http://www.parl.gc.ca/committee/CommitteePublication.aspx? SourceId=80458 She said in part -- and this is absolutely fantastic, dynamite stuff: I'm here because there are millions of photographs in the holdings of archival institutions across Canada. There are more than 21 million photos in the National Library and National Archives of Canada alone, just a short walk down the street. There are millions more in provincial, municipal, university, and other archives across the country, and even more in family archives, in shoe boxes, photo albums, envelopes, and small paper bags. These photographs are an integral part of the heritage and culture of Canadian society. They tell us and show us who we are, what we do, and where we come from. The recommendations members of Parliament will make on copyright protection for photographs will have immediate economic implications for professional photographers, but they will also affect Canadian culture and heritage. The status report discusses Bill S-16, a private member's bill in the Senate. The amendments to the Copyright Act in that bill reflect the needs and interests of professional photographers. We believe the bill and the status report outline the issues in a very narrow way, addressing specific problems but leaving out other important considerations, considerations that are important to us. Committee members have heard the view of professional photographers and will hear that of newspapers. They have important and legitimate interests the committee needs to hear, and we agree with that. What I can bring to you this afternoon is quite a different perspective: the archival point of view. Archival holdings contain photographs by professional photographers, but these represent only a small fraction of the photographs taken in this country and a small fraction of the historical photographs found in Canadian archives. The vast majority of the photographs in our archives are taken by ordinary people like you and me, non-professional photographers. Let me tell you a little bit about my world. The stakeholders I represent are the people who are entrusted to collect, preserve, and make available for historical research photographs taken by ordinary Canadians as well as by professional photographers ten, twenty, fifty, a hundred, and even more years after a photo is taken. This is what archivists do; it's what I do. These photos are an integral and important part of our national heritage. Any recommendations the committee makes concerning copyright protection for photographs must ensure that the photographs in archives can be used for research and study purposes and don't descend into a bureaucratic black hole where they are not accessible to Canadians. And I'm talking about over the long term, not the short term, necessarily, or even the medium term. There are many copyright problems with archival photographs taken by ordinary Canadians. Most often, the person who took the photograph is unknown. Your uncle Joe, your cousin Sally, and your next-door neighbour don't sign their photographs. I don't know who took most of the photographs in my own family albums, particularly the ones that are a little bit older than I am. Without the information about who took the photograph, it is impossible to locate the copyright owner. It is therefore impossible to get permission for or to give permission to our researchers to use the photograph. If a researcher cannot get permission to use the photo, it sits in copyright limbo, and valuable historical research becomes impossible. * * * THIS SAME MESSAGE HAS TO GET THROUGH TO THAT LIST OF SENATORS ABOVE. And it has to be done on or before next Tuesday. * * * Some more of what Nancy had to say (again, this is dynamite stuff): The same questions are much more difficult and complex when examined from the point of view of an archivist responsible for providing access to millions of photographs for which there is no information about who owns the copyright and who took the photo, let alone when that person died. CIPPIC, who we just heard from, has put forward an interesting solution to address some of the issues I'm raising. They suggest giving different copyright protection to domestic and commercial photographs taken by professional photographers. We think it's an innovative solution, although, as it stands, as we have seen it, we don't believe the suggestion is workable or practical for the long term. As well, we think it addresses only part of the problem. I don't have legislation to suggest to the committee. I wish I had a magic wand that could fix all of this for all of us sitting at this end of the table, but I don't. What I do suggest is that we need to identify solutions other than those found in the status report. We need a copyright law that protects the economic interests of professional photographers and at the same time provides access to the vast photographic collections that have historical rather than commercial value. That's probably most of the photographs taken in this country. I don't know what the possible solutions are. I do know that policy analysts in the Departments of Heritage and Industry are trained to do this work. We're ready and willing, and in fact eager, to sit down and work with them and with other stakeholders to come up with viable solutions. Going forward with amendments based on a private member's bill that was drafted to address the problems of professional photographers will not meet the needs of all the stakeholders affected by this legislation. This would not serve Canadians well. I want to be very clear that I think the economic interests of professional photographers and other creators have to be considered, and have to be considered very seriously. We are fully prepared to do this. However, the interests of other stakeholders also need to be considered. This means including the interests of researchers and the archives and archivists who are responsible for acquiring, storing, preserving, and making available the documentary heritage contained in the many millions of photographs in archival collections across this country. My suggestion to the committee is that it recommend to the responsible departments that policy options be identified on the ownership, authorship, and term of copyright protection for photographs that consider all the stakeholder interests affected, including the economic interests of professional photographers and the interests of all the ordinary citizens who take photographs and record the visual history of our country while expecting that these will be available in future generations. The archival community believes very strongly that there is a need for serious policy analysis and public discussion as an integral part of the process for change in copyright legislation. Copyright legislation for photographs has important implications for public policy, affecting all Canadians within our society, not just one constituency or another. There are Canadians who would not be considered traditional stakeholders who want a voice in the debate on these public policy issues. The process should include an opportunity for full and open discussion and exploration of the public policy issues by a wide representation of Canadian society rather than a pressure-cooker atmosphere where powerful lobbyists dominate the debate. We believe this approach can help build true public consensus on these important issues. Finally, I would like to leave with the committee what we think is an important guiding principle: a robust public domain is an essential element of an informed and participatory society. Copyright law grants a limited monopoly to copyright owners. Copyright protection does not extend beyond original expression, nor does it last for an indefinite period of time. Facts and ideas remain outside the scope of copyright. At the end of a specified period of time, even protected works fall into the public domain. In the view of the Bureau of Canadian Archivists, safeguarding the public domain and keeping it robust is as fundamentally important as protecting the rights of individual and corporate owners of copyright. As you said yourself, the logistical issue of trying to ascertain who the rights holder is, and is this person dead or alive, 50 years after the fact.... It sounds so simple when you're doing it for today: "Yes, this photographer has a business; yes, he or she knows when the photographs were taken and knows who the photographer was who took it." It's very straightforward. But 50 years down the line you're in a very different situation and you are in a never-never land. That's what we're saying. We have people who show up at our door, and the photograph is there; it's in front of them. We have it and we're willing to provide access to it, but we have no idea who the copyright holder is and what the term of protection is. This is a complicated issue. It's not just a question of fixing a little bit here and a little bit there. You're putting a finger in the dike and you're exploding the ground behind you. There's a problem. Ms. Nancy Marrelli: I just want to disagree with Monsieur Cornellier, who has said several times that it is simpler to simply do this, that, or the other thing. I think the problem is that you're talking, Monsieur Cornellier, about a very particular body of photographs. There are many different kinds of photographs out there in Canada, and I think what's simple in one situation is not always simple in another. I think we all sympathize with the problem you've brought up--certainly I do--but I can't say it's okay to sort of throw out the baby with the bathwater because you have a problem. We have to find a better fix to this problem. Here are the committee documents: http://www.parl.gc.ca/committee/CommitteePublication.aspx?SourceId=80836 http://www.parl.gc.ca/committee/CommitteePublication.aspx?SourceId=80837 The way to unsubscribe from the list is as follows. Send a message to majordomo@ualberta.ca and in the message area, type unsubscribe arcan-l then send the message. PLEASE DO NOT SEND AN UNSUBSCRIBE MESSAGE ADDRESSED TO ARCAN-L@MAJORDOMO.UALBERTA.CA --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.782 / Virus Database: 528 - Release Date: 22/10/2004 ==== CANADA-CENSUS-CAMPAIGN Mailing List ==== Read Gordon A. Watts' column on Post 1901 Census issues at http://globalgazette.net

Try searching the archives The URLs were posted yesterday -- but messages very long http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index/CANADA-CENSUS-CAMPAIGN Muriel ----- Original Message ----- From: <ariana@hfx.eastlink.ca> To: <CANADA-CENSUS-CAMPAIGN-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Tuesday, November 02, 2004 7:59 AM Subject: Re: [CCC] Off-topic but of impact to our research - Copyright Bill S-9 -- URGENT action needed > Brian, > > If this article is online do you happen to have a URL for it? > > Mary Anne > > > On 1 Nov 2004 at 21:49, gilchrists wrote: > > > There is an extensive article about this whole subject in today's > > Toronto Star. It seems that yes indeed that as the legislation > > currently stands the photographer will hold the copyright and those > > who paid for their services will have to seek any releases - in fact > > copyright ownership might be built into the small print of any > > contracts. > > > > Also, the legislation might also be retro-active! It seems to have the > > potential to become a researcher and archivist's nightmare! > > > > This is absolutely absurd and immediate action must be taken by > > contacting the Members of Parliament ... > > > > Cheers! > > J. Brian Gilchrist > > > ==== CANADA-CENSUS-CAMPAIGN Mailing List ==== > Keep up to date on Post 1901 Census Issues at > http://globalgenealogy.com/Census/ > en français http://globalgenealogy.com/Census/Index_f.htm >

Thank you Senator Massicotte for at least replying to my email. Although, you did not answer the question "how do you stand, Destruction or Preservation of historic documents?" With that reply, you have earned a green "Fence" on our site which is noted in my original email. Thanks again but I do hope to hear a more definite reply in the near future. Adele Turner North Vancouver, BC -----Original Message----- From: Massicotte, Paul: SEN [mailto:MASSIP@SEN.PARL.GC.CA] Sent: Tuesday, November 02, 2004 6:22 AM To: ajturner@shaw.ca Subject: Re: Historical 1901 Census Thank you for alerting me to this issue and your opinion. I am now more sensitive to your perspective. Thanks. -----Original Message----- From: Adele Turner <ajturner@shaw.ca> To: Massicotte, Paul: SEN <MASSIP@SEN.PARL.GC.CA> Sent: Tue Nov 02 01:20:03 2004 Subject: Historical 1901 Census Senator Paul J. Massicotte: First of all, I wish you well in your appointed duties as a Canadian Senator from Quebec. It is important to me to find out how you stand on our Canadian history. I want to know whether you wish to preserve or destroy our historical documents. Don't forget, when you vote in the Senate, you vote for all Canadians. You vote will effect present and future generations to come. Do you want that on your record? I need to know HOW YOU stand on the Post 1901 Historic Census? Do you support its preservation or its destruction? I sure hope in the future that it will not be typical of your office to ignore correspondence sent to you or worse still by sending a "thank you for your letter...then stating I have passed on your concerns and interest to Mr. Emerson whose responsibility this belongs or to whomever is your critic". It would be my desire to receive at the very least one reply from the Senators. So far, I have never received any correspondence any Senator. My goal, as a member of the Canada (Save Our) Census Committee, is to draw your attention to the Chief Statistician's refusal to release control for the 1911 Census records to the National Archivist. According to law, the 1911 Census should have been released June 1, 2003 and to date this has not happened. Legally, the Chief Statistician should immediately transfer all national treasures such as the 92-year-old Canadian Census to the control of the National Archivist for safekeeping and not destroyed as Dr. Ivan Fellegi wishes. You may or not be aware that for the past seven or so years, there has been a public campaign by genealogists and historians have been seeking to regain the public access to Historic Census records after 1901 that has been improperly, (and believed illegally), withheld from public access by Canada's Chief Statistician, Dr. Ivan P. Fellegi. The campaign has sought to regain the same unrestricted access to records after 1906 that has been available for 240 years of Census records up to that time. We have made submissions and provided more than 65,000 petition signatures in an effort to voice our concerns for all who are searching for their historic family information. A history of our struggles with the Chief Statistician is well documented on our website, www.globalgenealogy.com/Census <http://www.globalgenealogy.com/Census> . Included here are findings of an Expert Panel, and the results of cross-Canada Town Hall meetings, which all show agreement that there was misinterpretation on the part of the Chief Statistician with relation to the instructions given to Enumerators. Our law presently states that release of Census data must occur 92 years after collection. During the last session of Parliament there was an attempt to push through Bill S-13, supposedly to 'correct' a deficiency, (a deficiency only perceived by the Chief Statistician). Thankfully Parliament closed down in time to prevent passage, which ultimately would have done nothing to correct anything, except add an additional 20 more unnecessary years to the release time, and provide the Chief Statistician with more control. Most other countries in the world vary in release date from 70 to 100 years. Canadian taxpayers fund a Heritage Ministry, and what is more meaningful to our heritage and history than knowing and understanding our origins and ancestry, to say nothing of valuable medical information to be found. Mr. Wayne Easter has stated thus "In this age when criticism is leveled at our educational institutions for not making Canadian history courses readily available to our students, this attempt by Stats Can to further remove Canadians from their recorded historical roots must not be allowed to happen". The only resolution acceptable must be the same unrestricted public access for records after 1906, as is presently available for the existing 240 years of records up to that date. Access to these records is currently permitted under The Access to Information and Privacy Acts, and no legislative changes should be necessary for us to view these or any future records. What is required is a government which will live up to the pre-election promises the Prime Minister made of less interference by bureaucrats, and as well would require the Chief Statistician to obey the laws of the land. To date we have not had such a government. After all, the Chief Statistician does not have the legal right to enact or propose laws. His is an appointed position. Perhaps he has served his usefulness plus he has passed his legal retirement age when it is compulsory for all Canadians to retire. We would request that you introduce a Government Bill which would add to the Statistics Act, a single clause similar to the following: "Original schedules of Census or authentic copies thereof shall, not later than thirty (30) years following collection, be transferred to the care and control of the National Archivist for subsequent public access in accordance with provisions of the Access to Information and Privacy Acts, and Regulations attached thereto." In closing, I hope to hear in the near future that an "original" promise voted into law by government will finally be kept. Over the years, so many promises have been made to the Canadian people have been broken by government. A couple of the broken promises made by government are the discontinuation of the GST plus the Income Tax that was to be discontinued after WWI. Neither promise was ever kept when they got voted into office. And those are but two unkempt promises. So PLEASE don't give me the same old rhetoric about the Right to Privacy. My Dad at age 90 years wasn't even born when the 1911 Census was conducted. So whose Right to Privacy are you pretending to preserve? It certainly isn't my Dad's. So please help us correct this potentially tragic destruction to Canada's past and its history. I would really appreciate receiving confirmation by email whether you support our cause or not so that we can post your reply on our website. Thanking you in advance for your PROMPT reply to this email Yours respectfully, (Miss) Adele J. Turner Canada Census Committee Member - Save our Census #67 - 1947 Purcell Way North Vancouver, BC V7J 3H4 604-987-5137 ajturner@shaw.ca