Gordon The OGS (The Ontario Genealogical Society) headquarters is not in Ottawa but in Toronto. But they do have an Ottawa Branch. And their yearly Seminar is being held this coming weekend in Cornwall, Ontario. WANDA SINCLAIR Rexdale, Ontario ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gordon A. Watts" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Monday, May 19, 2003 1:39 PM Subject: Re: [CCC] Regarding "End Game" > RE: [CCC] Regarding "End Game"Greetings Ken and All. > > I am pleased to see that several listers have been participating in the current discussion regarding what we can do to bring the Census issue and Bill S-13 to the attention of the public, the media and our parliamentarians. I hope that this discussion will continue. With this posting I hope to respond to several messages that have been posted. > > Several of the things suggested are looking forward a number of months and seem to be based on the assumption that Bill S-13 will not be passed. That is not necessarily the case. Although those suggestions could be followed up if in fact S-13 does fail to pass, I think that we need to do something more immediate to bring the need for amendments to S-13 to the forefront. Preferably, it needs to be done before, or during the time S-13 is being discussed in the House of Commons. I come back to my suggesting re: picketing/demonstrating before the Parliament Buildings. > > Ken suggests that such an activity would require many people to keep up this activity for 10 to 20 days. I do not think that it would take that long for a demonstration to attract attention to what we seek. > > The various political parties hold their Caucus meetings on Wednesday mornings. Following those meetings there are always media scrums at which TV and print media reporters interview the major players from the Caucus meetings. I believe these scrums are normally held at the noon lunch break. If we could see a number of people demonstrate for 3 or 4 hours on a Wednesay to cover the period when the media people are arriving before the scrum, and when they are leaving, that might be sufficient to attract some attention. This could be done on 2 or 3 successive Wednesdays. Of course, the greater the number of participants, the more attention it would attract. > > Such a demonstration would require someone local to organize it, and someone knowledgeable of the issue and what we seek to act as a spokesperson. The OGS, being the largest genealogical organization in Ontario and having their headquarters in Ottawa, would be the logical ones to take this on. As some of the OGS leaders subscribe to this list it is my hope that they will take on this challenge. OGS members might encourage them to do so. > > Engaging a professional lobbyist has a couple of drawbacks, not the least of which would be the cost of doing so. We sucessfully, and quickly raised the money for our legal action but there is no certainty that such would be the case to raise the funds to hire a lobbyist. Timing is also a problem here as there is a need to act now, rather than down the road. There are also rules under which professional lobbyists are governed, while we as individuals are not restricted by those rules. > > Steve White remains a subscriber to the CCC list and as such has access to all the posts. He has also corresponded privately with Muriel and myself. It is believed that he has been passing on information to other media people and that this will at some point result in some media activity. There are a couple of other media types that subscribe to the list and at least one of them has produced a very good article about the Census issue. > > Patty suggests making this an election issue, and to some extent this idea has merit, although the MPs have many times been made aware that their decision on which way to go on the Census issue could influence the way people vote in an election. This again, however, is a long range thing and the need is for something immediate. Except in a few instances, we have had no indication that the MPs that do not support our efforts are concerned about our support for their re-election. > > Wayne makes an interesting suggestion about hands across the bridge at Niagra Falls. That is something that would also take some time and organization. I am not so sure, Wayne, about your suggestion regarding a red wig for me. I think I would likely look more like Ronald McDonald than William Lyon MacKenzie <]:-). > > Let us keep the discussion going. I am sure that there are many others that have ideas on what we can do. > > Happy Hunting. > > Gordon

To Senator Jerahmiel S. Grafstein and Canada Census Committee:- Sincere apologies, Senator Grafstein, for changing your province of residence from Ontario to Saskatchewan!! I was going through one of your many webpages -- the CENSUS one with the URL as follows:- http://globalgenealogy.com/Census/Senator039.htm Very possibly Gordon A. Watts will make this change on the official scoreboard -- then you could correct my error!! During the last few days, as committee members have become exasperated with proceedings on the Hill relating to Bill S-13, one idea was "hands across the border" - both American and Canadian researchers desire the release of these valuable census records. This reminded me of your efforts during the dark days following September 11 when you strove for friendship with "hands across the border". It was a welcome gesture to Americans, I know. Sincerely hope you are able to assist Senator Lorna Milne correct all the bad spots before it goes to the House of Commons -- it seems the personnel there may feel Bill S-13 is unfinished. Also, let's change that GREEN Undecided symbol to GOLD!!! Muriel M. Davidson [email protected] Co-Chair, Canada Census Committee 25 Crestview Avenue, Brampton, ON L6W 2R8 --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.483 / Virus Database: 279 - Release Date: 5/19/03

To all:- A long time ago -- it seems -- we started working together to assist Senator Lorna Milne pry OUR Canadian census records away from several with grasps of steel, it seemed! This column was written by Sandra Devlin, well-known to many http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~downhome/devlin1.html Please note the date -- change a bill number -- up-to-date!! This is only one great column posted by Bryan Keddy on the former Lunenburg County Canada Census Campaign website. When started on JULY 1, 1999 we called it the LCCCC site. One Member of Parliament nicknamed it the coast-to-coast-to-coast site as we have tried to make it that way -- something for all -- but mainly this came naturally as sites added Barney's logo and let us know. How did the name get changed? Bryan gave the site to me as a gift, one I deeply appreciate. Recently, we had to change the URL http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~downhome/post1901census.htm [We could not have wierd ads popping up IF a politician happened to be looking at the site!!!] Check out the many editorials and write-ups - I hope to add several more shortly, if all goes well! Muriel M. Davidson [email protected] Brampton, ON --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.483 / Virus Database: 279 - Release Date: 5/19/03

It is quite clear that this Senator doesn't understand much about the Bill. Dan Walker "Muriel M. Davidson" wrote: > THE SENATE OF CANADA [CREST] LE SÉNATE DU CANADA > The Hon. Joan Fraser L'hon. Joan Fraser > Ottawa > K1A 0A4 > > May 6, 2003 > > Mrs. Muriel Davidson > Co-Chair, Canada Census Committee > 25 Crestview Avenue > Brampton, Ontario > L6W 2R8 > > Dear Mrs. Davidson: > > Thank you for your letter regarding Bill S-13. > > I am sympathetic to your position. I was at the meeting where the > Social Affairs committee reviewed the bill clause-by-clause. Indeed, > I would have supported amendments in committee, but was outvoted. > > This being said, Senator Milne's third reading speech in the Senate > Chamber on April 30th really impressed upon me that perhaps the > bill was best left as it was. She told Senators about Senator Lowell > Murray's characterization of the bill as being a delicately framed > balance that should not be disturbed. Just listening to the questions > and comments following her speech made me realize just how divisive > this issue still is. As there is no clear concensus on the release of > census data versus the right to privacy, I believe that the balance > achieved allows both sides to go away winners. And I don't think > that's so bad. > > Thank you again for writing. I would note that your fight does not end > in the Senate. The bill will move on to the House of Commons, where > you will have the opportunity once again to influence the lawmakers. > I wish you luck with your work in this matter. > > Sincerely, > > Senator Joan Fraser > ================= > http://www.globalgenealogy.com/Census/Senscore3.htm#PQ > > Senator Joan Fraser supported Senator Milne's Bill S-15, in 2001. > > --- > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > Version: 6.0.481 / Virus Database: 277 - Release Date: 5/13/03 > > ==== CANADA-CENSUS-CAMPAIGN Mailing List ==== > How to unsubscribe from Digest Mode. Send a message to > [email protected] that contains > (in the Subject line and body of the message) the command > -- unsubscribe -- and no additional text.

THE SENATE OF CANADA [CREST] LE SÉNATE DU CANADA The Hon. Joan Fraser L'hon. Joan Fraser Ottawa K1A 0A4 May 6, 2003 Mrs. Muriel Davidson Co-Chair, Canada Census Committee 25 Crestview Avenue Brampton, Ontario L6W 2R8 Dear Mrs. Davidson: Thank you for your letter regarding Bill S-13. I am sympathetic to your position. I was at the meeting where the Social Affairs committee reviewed the bill clause-by-clause. Indeed, I would have supported amendments in committee, but was outvoted. This being said, Senator Milne's third reading speech in the Senate Chamber on April 30th really impressed upon me that perhaps the bill was best left as it was. She told Senators about Senator Lowell Murray's characterization of the bill as being a delicately framed balance that should not be disturbed. Just listening to the questions and comments following her speech made me realize just how divisive this issue still is. As there is no clear concensus on the release of census data versus the right to privacy, I believe that the balance achieved allows both sides to go away winners. And I don't think that's so bad. Thank you again for writing. I would note that your fight does not end in the Senate. The bill will move on to the House of Commons, where you will have the opportunity once again to influence the lawmakers. I wish you luck with your work in this matter. Sincerely, Senator Joan Fraser ================= http://www.globalgenealogy.com/Census/Senscore3.htm#PQ Senator Joan Fraser supported Senator Milne's Bill S-15, in 2001. --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.481 / Virus Database: 277 - Release Date: 5/13/03

I suspect that Senator Fraser is telling exactly the truth. Based upon the arguement set forth regarding Bill S-13, she supports it as is. I have followed the posted material about the debate. The support for any form of amendment in the Senate has been tepid, at best. Not one person, especially the Senator sponsoring the bill, has made any kind of real arguement as to why it should be amended. It is all generalities, and placation of the opposition. READ the stuff that has been posted. Go and look at the Hansard Index. Find out what your Senator is saying, if anything. Read the actual "arguement" and find out what is actually being said. I suspect that a good many of the people on this list would get very angry if they read every word that Senator Milne has actually said about this bill in the Senate. There is virtually no chance at all that this bill will ever be amended to any significant degree. The government will not allow any significant amendments. Look at how this was ramrodded through the Senate. It will be the same thing in the House. Why doesn't someone directly ask either Jeff Paul or Senator Milne, "Exactly how much of an amendment will the Government allow, before they withdraw their support for this bill? Will they allow an "Opt Out" clause on future censuses? Will they allow an ammendment that would eliminate the 20 year period of time before full disclosure of census data is allowed?" See if you get an honest answer to those specific questions. They are at the heart of what is wrong with Bill S-13. I will predict that you will never get an honest and direct answer to those questions. If you do, you will be told that no significant changes can be made to any of those areas. But what I expect you will get are what we call, "weasel words". Not a direct answer, but a lot of manure about the legislative process, etc. Because I have been so outspoken about this bill, I have been informed that at least one member of the Government will no longer support my quest to resume my Canadian Citizenship. So be it. It was my understanding that Canada has freedom of speech. It sppears, that some people in the Government do not really believe in the concept. I will not be stilled. Bill S-13 is a very bad bill. It will restrict all of our access to Canadian Censuses during our lifetimes. Unfortunately, it will virtually totally cut our grandchildren and great-grandchildren off from all Census data from 2006 onward. ===== Lynton (Bill) Stewart A former dual Canadian and U.S. Citizen, who's Canadian Citizenship was automatically stripped away without any notice, due to the fact that I was born prior to 1947. My siblings born after that date get to resume their Canadian Citizenship. I do not have that same right. Searching for Moore, McLennan, Peers, Stewart, Thompson in NS;. Black, Foulds, Johnston and Stewart in MB; Provorse, Wright in ON, and Black, Foulds & Stewart in SK & BC.

On 19 May 2003 at 1:53, wcook wrote: > Hi List, > How about hands across the bridge at Niagara Falls. We could have the > American side with happy faces and an enlargement of the 1930 census > and we on the Canadian side could have sad faces with an enlargement > of the next census do out with a large red X thru it, plus any > placards that would fit our situtation. Wayne, What a great idea. How about instead of a red "x" we draw big black lines of censorship on the census form? And perhaps the Canadian protesters could dress all in black and carry a mock coffin (designed like a filing cabinet?) to symbolize the death of historical research in Canada. That might get some media attention :) Happy Victoria Day, everybody! Mary Anne ----------------- FindersKeepers Specializing in Nova Scotia Books, History & Genealogy in or out of print. Email: [email protected] URL: www.clik.to/finderskeepers

Hello Mary Jo:- There are many Americans with roots in Canada -- several are members of the Canada Census Committee as well. You have every right to send a letter to all three listed below obtained from the scoreboard at http://www.globalgenealogy.com/Census/Score3.htm#ONT Sue Barnes - London West [email protected] Joe Fontana - London North Centre - [email protected] Pat O'Brien - London-Fanshawe - [email protected] The mailing address is:- NAME OF POLITICIAN House of Commons Parliament Buildings Ottawa, ON K1A 0A6 Best of luck!! If you send a letter, copy to myself or [email protected] The letter will then be added to the scoreboard message centre. Muriel M. Davidson [email protected] Brampton, ON ----- Original Message ----- From: "Mary Jo" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Monday, May 19, 2003 11:01 AM Subject: [CCC] Tourists > I just recently joined this list and am very dismayed > to find that there is such a problem with releasing > the 1911 census as I was really looking forward > to finding more relatives to aid in my research to > complete my family tree. I am an American but both > my parents were born and raised in Canada. > I cannot think of anything more respectful than remembering > the names and accomplishments of ancestors. > without them we would not exist - everyone in my > family is thrilled that I have undertaken this task - they > review the names I have found in search of names to > give their children. The people that have gone before us > will now be remembered not forgotten - knowing where > and how they lived, birth and death dates, where they > are buried all help to make them real. The census is > where I have found my great great grandparents - > the information I obtained from the 1901 census enabled > me to find the cemetery where they are buried and where > they lived including street addresses. I have a three day > trip planned this summer to London, Ontario all due > to information I found on the 1901 census has anyone > thought of the tourist dollars generated by people like > me and my family and untold others who are moved > to visit the places their ancestors lived and died? --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.481 / Virus Database: 277 - Release Date: 5/13/03

I just recently joined this list and am very dismayed to find that there is such a problem with releasing the 1911 census as I was really looking forward to finding more relatives to aid in my research to complete my family tree. I am an American but both my parents were born and raised in Canada. I cannot think of anything more respectful than remembering the names and accomplishments of ancestors. without them we would not exist - everyone in my family is thrilled that I have undertaken this task - they review the names I have found in search of names to give their children. The people that have gone before us will now be remembered not forgotten - knowing where and how they lived, birth and death dates, where they are buried all help to make them real. The census is where I have found my great great grandparents - the information I obtained from the 1901 census enabled me to find the cemetery where they are buried and where they lived including street addresses. I have a three day trip planned this summer to London, Ontario all due to information I found on the 1901 census has anyone thought of the tourist dollars generated by people like me and my family and untold others who are moved to visit the places their ancestors lived and died?

RE: [CCC] Regarding "End Game"Greetings Ken and All. I am pleased to see that several listers have been participating in the current discussion regarding what we can do to bring the Census issue and Bill S-13 to the attention of the public, the media and our parliamentarians. I hope that this discussion will continue. With this posting I hope to respond to several messages that have been posted. Several of the things suggested are looking forward a number of months and seem to be based on the assumption that Bill S-13 will not be passed. That is not necessarily the case. Although those suggestions could be followed up if in fact S-13 does fail to pass, I think that we need to do something more immediate to bring the need for amendments to S-13 to the forefront. Preferably, it needs to be done before, or during the time S-13 is being discussed in the House of Commons. I come back to my suggesting re: picketing/demonstrating before the Parliament Buildings. Ken suggests that such an activity would require many people to keep up this activity for 10 to 20 days. I do not think that it would take that long for a demonstration to attract attention to what we seek. The various political parties hold their Caucus meetings on Wednesday mornings. Following those meetings there are always media scrums at which TV and print media reporters interview the major players from the Caucus meetings. I believe these scrums are normally held at the noon lunch break. If we could see a number of people demonstrate for 3 or 4 hours on a Wednesay to cover the period when the media people are arriving before the scrum, and when they are leaving, that might be sufficient to attract some attention. This could be done on 2 or 3 successive Wednesdays. Of course, the greater the number of participants, the more attention it would attract. Such a demonstration would require someone local to organize it, and someone knowledgeable of the issue and what we seek to act as a spokesperson. The OGS, being the largest genealogical organization in Ontario and having their headquarters in Ottawa, would be the logical ones to take this on. As some of the OGS leaders subscribe to this list it is my hope that they will take on this challenge. OGS members might encourage them to do so. Engaging a professional lobbyist has a couple of drawbacks, not the least of which would be the cost of doing so. We sucessfully, and quickly raised the money for our legal action but there is no certainty that such would be the case to raise the funds to hire a lobbyist. Timing is also a problem here as there is a need to act now, rather than down the road. There are also rules under which professional lobbyists are governed, while we as individuals are not restricted by those rules. Steve White remains a subscriber to the CCC list and as such has access to all the posts. He has also corresponded privately with Muriel and myself. It is believed that he has been passing on information to other media people and that this will at some point result in some media activity. There are a couple of other media types that subscribe to the list and at least one of them has produced a very good article about the Census issue. Patty suggests making this an election issue, and to some extent this idea has merit, although the MPs have many times been made aware that their decision on which way to go on the Census issue could influence the way people vote in an election. This again, however, is a long range thing and the need is for something immediate. Except in a few instances, we have had no indication that the MPs that do not support our efforts are concerned about our support for their re-election. Wayne makes an interesting suggestion about hands across the bridge at Niagra Falls. That is something that would also take some time and organization. I am not so sure, Wayne, about your suggestion regarding a red wig for me. I think I would likely look more like Ronald McDonald than William Lyon MacKenzie <]:-). Let us keep the discussion going. I am sure that there are many others that have ideas on what we can do. Happy Hunting. Gordon ----- Original Message ----- From: Hubley, Ken To: Gordon A. Watts Sent: Sunday, May 18, 2003 1:55 PM Subject: RE: [CCC] Regarding "End Game" Gordon: Good day! I've been reading the rhetoric on the list and observed that people are very passionate about this issue. Being new to the pleasures of genealogy I must say I'm not as emotional about Bill S-13 (an unfortunate no.) but do agree that it is not ideal and tries to correct something that was not broken! I certainly agree with you on the subject of civil disobedience. It is not immediately effective in any case and could lead to hardships for many people. Awhile back I e-mailed you suggesting a media blitz. I was hearten to see Steve ??, the media type join the list but have not seen any action. Giving him the benefit of the doubt, perhaps he has but has not revealed his actions to the list. Has he done anything or is he just blowing smoke! I like your idea of demonstrations on the hill in front of Parliament but how much sustained exposure will this give us. Would people be willing to demostrate for 10 or 20 days straight? I think not! My thought on a way forward involves engaging the services of a professional lobbyist who can keep our collective position on this Bill in the face of our elected officials on a continuous sustained basis. Any comment? Do you know any professional lobbyist that is sympathetic and passionate about our cause? Can we find out what such a service might cost? I for one would be willing to donate $100 to the cause. If we could get say an average of $50 from the 500+ listers = $25,000 would this be enough? I offer this option because time is of the essence and I can't believe we can acted quickly enough with 1) civil disobedience, 2) demonstrations or 3) launching a legal challenge. Please feel free to share this idea with anyone you wish. Have a great Victoria day tomorrow! Yours in genealogy, Ken

Greetings All. On the Canada-Census-Campaign mail list there is presently a lively discussion regarding possible means to bring the Census issue and Bill S-13 to the attention of the public, the media, and our parliamentarians. To avoid inundating other lists with this discussion, all who are interested/concerned regarding the Census issue are invited to subscribe to the CCC mail list at [email protected] Insert only the word SUBSCRIBE in the subject line and body of the message. Feel free to participate in this discussion. Post your own suggestions or comment on those made by others. To catch up on the discussion of the past few days, visit the CCC list archives at http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index/Canada-Census-Campaign/ If your mail program wraps this URL to a second line be sure to include the complete URL to access the archives. Happy Hunting Gordon A. Watts [email protected] Co-chair, Canada Census Committee Port Coquitlam, BC http://www.globalgenealogy.com/Census en francais http://www.globalgenealogy.com/Census/Index_f.htm Permission to forward without notice is granted.

A reminder to all that the address to post to the CCC list is [email protected] The address for posting is the same regardless of whether you are subscribed in Mail mode or digests mode. If the "-request" is included, the message simply comes to me as list admin and does not go to the list. Gordon ----- Original Message ----- From: "Susan Cormier" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Monday, May 19, 2003 4:07 AM Subject: Control HI listers: I'm new to this list but here is my quarters worth{inflation}. I think the governments refusal to release the census is another way to control us. For years I haven't been working,so I didn't fill out an income tax form,now the government says that I have to in order for my husband to get the GST rebate.

Hi List, How about hands across the bridge at Niagara Falls. We could have the American side with happy faces and an enlargement of the 1930 census and we on the Canadian side could have sad faces with an enlargement of the next census do out with a large red X thru it, plus any placards that would fit our situtation. Will get Gordon a red wig and fly him in and he can play William Lyon MacKenzie, leader of the Canada Rebellion of 2003, or we could march down Yonge St. at the point where MONTGOMERY'S TAVERN used to be headquarters of William Lyon MacKenzie, leader of the Upper Canada Rebellion of 1837, and scene of the brief skirmish in which, on 7 December 1837, the rebels were overcome by a force of militia commanded by Lieutenant-Colonel James Fitzgibbon. Though unsuccessful in its primary objective, the uprising, by forcing the issue of unrequited grievances against the dominant "Family Compact", contributed significantly to the legislative union of Upper and Lower Canada in 1841 and to the establishment in Canada of RESPONSIBLE GOVERNMENT. Wayne Cook http://www.waynecook.com (A History Television Approved Site) and your Host for the Simcoe County Genweb page at http://www.waynecook.com/simcoe.shtml Wasaga Beach, Ontario, Canada 1. Historic Plaques of Ontario 1,044 Plaques online http://www.waynecook.com 2. The Canadian Query Boards at http://www.waynecook.com/bulletin.html

Hi, Patty maybe right on being a bit premature as we don't exactly know where things are going to be, but foresight and thought definitely don't hurt pondering on what comes next. I've been thinking about 'What does come next?' Well this weekend of course is the Victoria Day Weekend. So everyone is more or less enjoying the long weekend. Though some of us are more worried about our nation's well being. Well there is another holiday coming up in on July 1st, 2003. Our country will be 136 yrs young. It is CANADA'S birthday. A day to celebrate our country's special day. I really do hope she is WELL enough to take part in the planned festivities and celebrations her children across this country have planned for her. I honestly don't know if she will be or not, because of late she has been kind of ailing, with something that sounds like "Fellegi-itis-Statscan-itis." This affliction seems to be growing worse over the last five years. Every time her guardians come up with a possible cure for her, there is always someone to pull the plug on her and she has a relapse. They really can't seem to agree on anything (or should that be 'get it right'). All some of them ever want to do is 'compromise her heritage.' She did think back in January, she might be improving and heading for a full recovery. Oh she was so thrill to see her 1906 people released from bondage, and take their rightful place in the National Archives beside all of her other children preserved in their heritage. She even thought that she would get lots of visiting in at the Archives and see some real old friends and share some stories of years gone by. Alas, it may not be, for out of the blue on Feb. 05, 2003, someone was prescribing a bitter pill for her to swallow called 'Billocker-up Stop'em 13' (Bill S.13 for short). Told her it was good for her, would not cure her 'Fellegi-itis Statscan-itis' and that it would have extremely bad side effects that would severely limit and restrict her movements. May even cause her to forget who her children are. Who knows maybe we can 'pick up her spirits with a 'Get Well Wishes for a Speedy Recovery' so she can celebrate her birthday in fine style again this year. Just have to figure out what kind of card to send to Ottawa where she seems to be stuck between a rock and a hard place. Should it be a thoughtful one? A home-made one? A simple 'I love you' card'? Or one of the funny humorous ones the kids get a great kick out of. Maybe the Senators and MPs will pin them up on the wall so she can just enjoy knowing that we have her best interests at heart and really do care. Well some of us anyway. ;o) Regards Juanita

Greetings All For some time I have been receiving bounce messages from some listers ISPs because of anti-spam programs that bounce messages because of "inappropriate" words or phrases. Some of those listers that have been bouncing list messages are connected to the media. I believe that most of the problem at this time is the use of the terms O*P*T-I*N and O*P*T-O*U*T (without the asterisks). These are terms that are frequently used in spam messages and it has been proven in at least one case that they have been the reason for the message being rejected. To help reduce the number of bounced list messages because of this reason I would request that anyone posting messages to the list with these terms in them modify the terms by the insertion of asterisks, spaces, dashes or something similar. If you feel that you may have been missing messages from the CCC list, check with your ISP to see if they use an anti-spam program that includes these terms. Thank you. Happy Hunting Gordon

Patti -- Many decisions and battles are won with the elections, and we should let OUR Member of Parliament know of this -- it is ?heartening? to read Paul Martin's attitude re bureaucrats -- BUT would this happen? Muriel M. Davidson ----- Original Message ----- From: "pmcgr" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Sunday, May 18, 2003 5:21 PM Subject: [CCC] Re: next steps > Hello all, > > This is a little premature, since we don't know what will happen to the Bill > once it gets to the House, but I suggest if we are still not satisfied, we > make it an election issue. Every candidate who wants our vote should be > questioned by each one of us over and over again. The question should be > posed at town halls, coffee parties and candidates' debates. Maybe then even > the press will take notice that this is an issue of great importance to a > lot of Canadians as well as those with Canadian ancestry. (I am presently > doing some census research for a client in Australia.) These candidates > should be made aware that a vote for them depends on how they respond. It's > too bad we can't have some influence to get the question asked at one of the > Liberal leadership debates - although the way they like to avoid making real > statements means we may not get anything near a concrete response. > > By the way, my e-mail letter to Paul Martin which I sent over a week ago has > still not been read (or deleted). I am going to print it off and mail a hard > copy as well. I know Gordon, Muriel and Senator Milne got copies, but I am > not sure I posted it to the list. I am including it below. Apologies if this > is a duplication. > > Patty > > ************************** > > Mr. Paul Martin > Member of Parliament > House of Commons > Ottawa > K1A 0A6 > > > Dear Mr. Martin, > > I was with great interest that I read the account in the Ottawa Citizen of > your speech at the Crossing Boundaries Conference last week. You mentioned > that "the public service is not an 'alternative legislature' and should > stick to consulting Canadians on policy, but leave the decision-making to > MPs." > > Your remarks reminded me of the continuing struggle we have had over the > release of the post 1901 census records. The 1906 records have now finally > been released to the public - 5 years after the date at which the law > required it. The struggle to get these records released eventually came > about because those in favour won a legal battle - one many of us have felt > all along was unnecessary; and was only required because of determined > resistance from a public servant -Dr Ivan Fellegi of StatsCan - who refers > to a commitment to privacy that he claims exists, but which he has never > been able to produce as evidence. A simple position might be taken that he > flaunted the laws of Canada with impunity for 5 years and continues to do > so. > > I am heartened to see your comments on 'reining in' bureaucrats who overstep > their boundaries and venture into the making of policy decisions and I hope > this means that you are in favour of unrestricted access to census records > after the 92 year withholding period as has been the case for the last 235 > years. However, to my knowledge, you have never clearly stated where you > stand on this issue. The census scorecard at > http://globalgenealogy.com/Census/Score4.htm#PQ shows you as undecided. I > am therefore asking you as someone seeking the leadership of the Liberal > Party of Canada and as someone who could be our next Prime Minister, to > state clearly where you stand on this issue. I believe you owe it to the > citizens of this country. > > There is currently a government Bill S-13 which is at 3rd reading in the > Senate, and I wish to request your support for some amendments to that bill > when / if it reaches Parliament. This Bill puts forward a plan for release > of post-1906 census records, however, the Bill as presently proposed > contains serious flaws which will restrict the very access genealogists and > historians are seeking both now and more seriously, into the future. > Unfortunately, the Senate avoided the best opportunity to review the Bill > when the Senate Standing Committee on Social Affairs, Science and Technology > returned the Bill to the Senate without considering any amendments or > reviewing the clauses in any detail. Perhaps some amendments will be > proposed from the Senate floor, but if not, I hope you will support the > wishes of the people on this matter. > > There are 3 particular situations that need to be addressed in amendments: > > 1 -- Clause 8 (the "informed consent" clause for future Censuses) needs to > be removed. Failing removal of Clause 8, it must be changed to be an > OPT-OUT provision rather than OPT-IN. The problem is that Clause 8 would > require me to decide now if the information on my Census form should be made > public 92 or more years from now, and requires me to make that decision for > my dependents as well, with no apparent way for any of them to change it > when they reach major age. By making it Opt-In, the assumption is that you > want the information hidden even if you say nothing. (Imagine if we ran our > elections that way - assuming that all the citizens who didn't vote, were in > support of the government!) Since census records have been made public, > there has never been a reported complaint in the USA, Canada or Great > Britain (that's at least 1 billion Census forms). Neither Great Britain > nor the USA have an informed consent question on their forms - nonetheless > their records are released on schedule and in entirety. > > 2 -- The 1911 and 1916 Census records need to be released without > restriction, on the same basis as those for 1906 (and 235 years of earlier > records) have been previously released. There seems no basis for NOT doing > this since the legislative situation in 1911 and 1916 were identical to > 1906. The 1911 census records, based on the 92 year law, are due to be > released this summer. > > 3 -- The additional "20-year non-disclosure clause" and the "undertaking" > also need to be removed. This refers to an additional waiting period > allowing full access but only partial disclosure which effectively makes > unfettered access to the Canadian Census available only after 112 years! > The similar period in the USA is 72 years, again, without any complaints so > far. > > These 3 requests, and other areas of concern with S-13, are covered in much > greater depth (and eloquence) in the submission to the Senate committee by > Mr. Gordon Watts, viewable at: > > http://globalgenealogy.com/Census/S13written.htm. > > I remind you that what we seek is exactly the same unrestricted access to > records after 1901 that is currently available for those records up to and > including 1901. Please let me know where you stand on this issue. You can > respond to me at the address above or electronically, if you prefer, at > [email protected] > > Thank you for your time, I await your reply, > > Patricia McGregor > > > > > > ==== CANADA-CENSUS-CAMPAIGN Mailing List ==== > How to unsubscribe from Digest Mode. Send a message to > [email protected] that contains > (in the Subject line and body of the message) the command > -- unsubscribe -- and no additional text. > --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.481 / Virus Database: 277 - Release Date: 5/13/03

Hello all, This is a little premature, since we don't know what will happen to the Bill once it gets to the House, but I suggest if we are still not satisfied, we make it an election issue. Every candidate who wants our vote should be questioned by each one of us over and over again. The question should be posed at town halls, coffee parties and candidates' debates. Maybe then even the press will take notice that this is an issue of great importance to a lot of Canadians as well as those with Canadian ancestry. (I am presently doing some census research for a client in Australia.) These candidates should be made aware that a vote for them depends on how they respond. It's too bad we can't have some influence to get the question asked at one of the Liberal leadership debates - although the way they like to avoid making real statements means we may not get anything near a concrete response. By the way, my e-mail letter to Paul Martin which I sent over a week ago has still not been read (or deleted). I am going to print it off and mail a hard copy as well. I know Gordon, Muriel and Senator Milne got copies, but I am not sure I posted it to the list. I am including it below. Apologies if this is a duplication. Patty ************************** Mr. Paul Martin Member of Parliament House of Commons Ottawa K1A 0A6 Dear Mr. Martin, I was with great interest that I read the account in the Ottawa Citizen of your speech at the Crossing Boundaries Conference last week. You mentioned that "the public service is not an 'alternative legislature' and should stick to consulting Canadians on policy, but leave the decision-making to MPs." Your remarks reminded me of the continuing struggle we have had over the release of the post 1901 census records. The 1906 records have now finally been released to the public - 5 years after the date at which the law required it. The struggle to get these records released eventually came about because those in favour won a legal battle - one many of us have felt all along was unnecessary; and was only required because of determined resistance from a public servant -Dr Ivan Fellegi of StatsCan - who refers to a commitment to privacy that he claims exists, but which he has never been able to produce as evidence. A simple position might be taken that he flaunted the laws of Canada with impunity for 5 years and continues to do so. I am heartened to see your comments on 'reining in' bureaucrats who overstep their boundaries and venture into the making of policy decisions and I hope this means that you are in favour of unrestricted access to census records after the 92 year withholding period as has been the case for the last 235 years. However, to my knowledge, you have never clearly stated where you stand on this issue. The census scorecard at http://globalgenealogy.com/Census/Score4.htm#PQ shows you as undecided. I am therefore asking you as someone seeking the leadership of the Liberal Party of Canada and as someone who could be our next Prime Minister, to state clearly where you stand on this issue. I believe you owe it to the citizens of this country. There is currently a government Bill S-13 which is at 3rd reading in the Senate, and I wish to request your support for some amendments to that bill when / if it reaches Parliament. This Bill puts forward a plan for release of post-1906 census records, however, the Bill as presently proposed contains serious flaws which will restrict the very access genealogists and historians are seeking both now and more seriously, into the future. Unfortunately, the Senate avoided the best opportunity to review the Bill when the Senate Standing Committee on Social Affairs, Science and Technology returned the Bill to the Senate without considering any amendments or reviewing the clauses in any detail. Perhaps some amendments will be proposed from the Senate floor, but if not, I hope you will support the wishes of the people on this matter. There are 3 particular situations that need to be addressed in amendments: 1 -- Clause 8 (the "informed consent" clause for future Censuses) needs to be removed. Failing removal of Clause 8, it must be changed to be an OPT-OUT provision rather than OPT-IN. The problem is that Clause 8 would require me to decide now if the information on my Census form should be made public 92 or more years from now, and requires me to make that decision for my dependents as well, with no apparent way for any of them to change it when they reach major age. By making it Opt-In, the assumption is that you want the information hidden even if you say nothing. (Imagine if we ran our elections that way - assuming that all the citizens who didn't vote, were in support of the government!) Since census records have been made public, there has never been a reported complaint in the USA, Canada or Great Britain (that's at least 1 billion Census forms). Neither Great Britain nor the USA have an informed consent question on their forms - nonetheless their records are released on schedule and in entirety. 2 -- The 1911 and 1916 Census records need to be released without restriction, on the same basis as those for 1906 (and 235 years of earlier records) have been previously released. There seems no basis for NOT doing this since the legislative situation in 1911 and 1916 were identical to 1906. The 1911 census records, based on the 92 year law, are due to be released this summer. 3 -- The additional "20-year non-disclosure clause" and the "undertaking" also need to be removed. This refers to an additional waiting period allowing full access but only partial disclosure which effectively makes unfettered access to the Canadian Census available only after 112 years! The similar period in the USA is 72 years, again, without any complaints so far. These 3 requests, and other areas of concern with S-13, are covered in much greater depth (and eloquence) in the submission to the Senate committee by Mr. Gordon Watts, viewable at: http://globalgenealogy.com/Census/S13written.htm. I remind you that what we seek is exactly the same unrestricted access to records after 1901 that is currently available for those records up to and including 1901. Please let me know where you stand on this issue. You can respond to me at the address above or electronically, if you prefer, at [email protected] Thank you for your time, I await your reply, Patricia McGregor

I will give you suggestions as I would do in the City of Brampton:- 1. Send a LETTER requesting an appearance before the City Council --- give your reason and subject for appearance How about requesting September to be recognized as DISCOVER YOUR PAST MONTH [Reason: Parliament resumes about middle of September] 2. Send a "cover letter" plus copy of your request to your local newspaper and TV company -- we have city council meetings televised except for "in camera" meetings -- the community knows by listening. 3. Contact your school board(s) (we have both public and separate) Get a history story contest going -- written or picture 4. Above all, contact by visit (at least two people) librararies, LDS Centre, Archives, and hopefully Ontario Genealogical Society would be part of this exercise. 5. Fall brings return to school, resumption of many local groups (e.g. Kiwanis, Rotary, etc.), fall fairs, and in Toronto - the Exhibition. Just jot down the resources in YOUR communities, obtain addresses, (secretaries of groups do change), and you will be surprised the resources available to each and every one of us. Remember, this will NOT be regarded as "civil disobedience" and without legal formalities, except in your town or city councils. Do not worry about what to say -- I am certain someone will be able to devise a short, tight, all-inclusive copy or copies -- only needing a personal lead-in paragraph and personal signatures -- WITH ADDRESSES. I will be waiting for Steve White to add to this list -- and above all, we should accept Sharon's invitation re poster(s). Muriel M. Davidson [email protected] Brampton, Ontario ----- Original Message ----- From: "bhorte" <[email protected]> To: "Muriel M. Davidson" <[email protected]> Sent: Sunday, May 18, 2003 2:57 PM Subject: Re: Regarding "End Game" -- A Canada-Wide Suggestion Muriel, this is such a good idea. But how to get it organized? ----- Original Message ----- From: "Muriel M. Davidson" <[email protected]> To: "Roz Griston" <[email protected]>; <[email protected]> Sent: Sunday, May 18, 2003 12:20 PM Subject: Regarding "End Game" -- A Canada-Wide Suggestion Many thanks for a great idea, Roz! I have written to the Mayor of the City of Brampton, asking for support -- to date not one city, town or village has gone on record as supporting census release. However, your idea is great -- if coordinated Canada-wide. and the suggestion of Labour Day time period gives a great deal of time for organization. It takes almost a month to receive a definite reply from a city council meeting -- and yes, press representatives do attend. Let's expand this Canada-wide theme -- offer suggestions, keeping in mind YOUR community and acceptance of ideas. Muriel M. Davidson [email protected] [One who has attended many meetings as press representative] --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.481 / Virus Database: 277 - Release Date: 5/13/03

Many thanks for a great idea, Roz! I have written to the Mayor of the City of Brampton, asking for support -- to date not one city, town or village has gone on record as supporting census release. However, your idea is great -- if coordinated Canada-wide. and the suggestion of Labour Day time period gives a great deal of time for organization. It takes almost a month to receive a definite reply from a city council meeting -- and yes, press representatives do attend. Let's expand this Canada-wide theme -- offer suggestions, keeping in mind YOUR community and acceptance of ideas. Muriel M. Davidson [email protected] [One who has attended many meetings as press representative] ----- Original Message ----- From: "Roz Griston" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Sunday, May 18, 2003 1:43 PM Subject: RE: [CCC] Regarding "End Game" after, i posted yesterday, a thought crossed my mind. at town council meetings, mayors and council often declare "such and such" national month/week/day. token moves really, but the media attends these council meetings..ergo, it then brings the census issue home to small communities. if we could co-ordinate with various genealogical/historical and heritage societies to have them assist with a national "release the census" day. this could go across canada and hit every community. we would need someone in each community/and or province to either make a presentation to the town council, or at least send a letter to the town council requesting that the community recognize this date. the more exhuberant (sp) among us could get out and set up mall/shopping centre displays. complete with petitions, and information. we would need to pick a date and be organized to act upon that date. what's crossing my mind is labour day. it would give us the lead time (maybe, if the legislation doesn't go through by then.) furthermore, there are many labour councils (who hold labour day picnics/family gatherings) who may assist us. after all it was their ancestors blood, sweat and tears who went into organizing labour rights, and just pure and simple a more compassionate society. these ppl shouldn't be lost/forgotten because of beaucratic legislation. anyhow, something to think on. roz =========== On Sunday, May 18, 2003 9:10 AM, Gordon A. Watts [SMTP:[email protected]] wrote: Greetings all. Following the posting of Bob Westbury's message regarding a discussion of "civil disobedience" I feel some clarification is needed. Long time CCC listers will be aware that from time to time the question of civil disobedience has come up, and that when it did I have tended to discourage it. I am honestly not a large fan of civil disobedience -- not entirely because of legal implications, but also because of considerations regarding what could be done, and how it could be implemented. Because we are so spread out across the country it is difficult to coordinate any specific activity. Prior to Bob posting his message I had a two hour meeting with him at his home in Calgary. Included in our discussion was the possibility of civil disobedience and we had a good go-around regarding this. In the end run I agreed that Bob could post his message about civil disobedience provided that he did so in the form of a question for discussion purposes. This he has done. A discussion regarding civil disobedience need not entail only those items that are "against the law". As Lois has pointed out, counseling others to break the law could have legal repercussions. So far as I am aware discussing and questioning possibiltities does not. I would like to see a good discussion regarding any possibilities to bring our issue to the public. Something I would personally like to see is a picket line at the Parliament Buildings in Ottawa that would bring to the attention of the media and the public what we are trying to accomplish, and the drawbacks to the conditions and restrictions of S-13. On my trips to Ottawa I have seen similar activities taking place at the Parliament buildings. This is something, however, that would have to be organized and implemented by someone onsite in Ottawa. It is not something that I could do from my location in British Columbia. Others may have different ideas, but my personal feelings are that for the time being, discussions regarding civil disobedience should be restricted to the CCC list. Happy Hunting. Gordon --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.481 / Virus Database: 277 - Release Date: 5/13/03

Hello List, I've been lurking, listening. We Canadians write letters and sign petitions. We are a people who trust that our leaders really DO have our interests at heart. We don't really like making a lot of noise unless it's at a hockey game! I'm afraid we are "too nice". If you look at any movement, the most success is when those people desiring change are "seen".and "heard". We must make ourselves visual. It's too easy to set aside a letter or an email. It's a lot harder to ignore a massive crowd of people with banners (and large Canadian Flags?) and articulate speakers. We don't have to become abusive or ill mannered, but we do need to make SOME NOISE and MOVEMENT to attract their attention and then keep it!!! I agree with Gordon that someone is needed in the Ontario area to organize a gathering. I'm way out here in BC too, but I would certainly consider flying out to join the group for a demonstration. It would require a great number of people to get the attention of the media so we could get on the national news. Perhaps once a date was set for bringing genealogists to Ottawa (let's include our brothers and sisters from USA too!) a media blitz could be done. I seem to recall when the trucking industry or farmers have gone to Ottawa in their vehicles, they have let their intent be known way ahead of time to the media. And look how much attention the crowds in Ottawa got after the terrorism of Sept 11th? But there were, as I recall (correct me?) about 50,000 people! An impact is made visually (that's why advertisements work). Personally, I'm hoping to find my grandma on the 1911 census. She never knew how old she was. When she had to get a pension, the government allocated her a year....they couldn't find a birth record for her (the family rumour is that the church where she was baptized burned down the same year, so they went by that). But if I can find her on the 1911 with an age, I'm hoping to veryify that she was born in October 1901 (Grey County Ontario). Perhaps the government paid her more pension that she was entitled to because they didn't check the census -- another good reason to make it more accessible!!!! That's my 2 cents from the west coast...April in BC