Hi, I came across this site while looking for information concerning the 1911 census. This would be valuable information for those of Ukrainian heritage. The Dominion Census, taken in June 1911, had identified 39,577 Germans, 121,430 Austro-Hungarians, 1,666 Bulgarians and 4,768 Turks and Syrians in Canada. Though not exactly information on the 1911 census. No doubt most of the names of these Ukrainians were on the 1911 census and no doubt would be found again on the 1916 census as listed in internment camps, located in various parts of Canada. I took a brief look at the pdf file for the Roll Call, there is 91 pages with names starting on page four, I believe for those in the various camps across Canada. I couldn't help but wonder if this might be part of the reason for the 20 non-disclosure clause in Bill S-13. These people were still in the camps during the 1918 census. They were actually held for two years after the war (1914-1918) and they were used by the Government as forced labourers. This is a most impressive site. Regards Juanita http://www.infoukes.com/history/internment/ Interment of Ukrainians in Canada 1914-1920 Introduction The purpose of these pages is to inform the general population about the Canadian Government's internment of Ukrainian Canadians in Concentration Camps in Canada during the period of 1914-1920. With the outbreak of World War I, the War Measures Act (1914) was implemented as a result of an Order In Council by the Canadian Government. This resulted in the internment of 8,579 "enemy aliens" of which over 5,000 were Ukrainians who had emigrated to Canada from territories under the control of the Austro-Hungarian Empire. It also meant an additional 80,000 individuals (of which the vast majority were Ukrainians) were obliged to register as "enemy aliens" and then required to report to local authorities on a regular basis. http://www.uccla.ca/images/Roll_Call.pdf

Hello Lori-Ann Do you have a copy of yesterday's Toronto Sun -- Page 19? There is a centre top photo of Chretien with caption CHRETIEN CELEBRATES CANADA'S PAST Prime Minister Chretien is taking part in a traditional prayer ceremony during "the announcement of a $40-million upgrade that will transform a former Ottawa train station into a shrine to Canada's history. The five-year-cost will be $90 million when operating costs are included." The city of Brampton could give a former CP train station FREE. This has been a long day -- including learning that postings I forwarded for Gordon were regarded as SPAM -- we work together on this project -- the only way we have progressed to date. As for content of this building -- census records??????? Muriel ----- Original Message ----- From: <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Wednesday, May 28, 2003 12:10 AM Subject: [CCC] Re: Post 1901 Census - Opening of Canada History Centre > Hi Gordon and Muriel, > Well I must say that this certainly stinks! > All the while that they have pushed Senator Milne aside and given grief to many over this issue for the Census, They decide to come out with a Canada History Centre. > Sounds like a money maker to me. What odds that you will be able to access the previous Census Material at a dollar's moment yet, the fight for release has been on for so long now. > My thoughts are that someone told them that they could make mega bucks on Genealogy and so now, why certainly, it just could fit in with the laws, rights and respect of those that built our Country to what it is today. > I am sorry for such a harsh opinon however, this is the first thing that comes to my mind. > Since joining this Site and fight for Release of Census Material, never once has this new Canada History Centre come to light. They are working on the side lines and yup, I am ticked here. > Better go before I get myself in do-do.... :o) > Lori-Ann > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Gordon A. Watts > To: Canada Census Campaign > Sent: Tuesday, May 27, 2003 1:09 AM > Subject: Post 1901 Census - Opening of Canada History Centre --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.483 / Virus Database: 279 - Release Date: 5/20/03

My point was partly that the 1901 census information was so basic--name, age, occupation, etc.--and so old that it is hardly an invasion of privacy. Those concerned with privacy issues today are generally worried about issues like identity theft, credit card fraud, bank account numbers, tracking of internet use, sexual orientation, databases of personal information, stalking by abusive spouses or sexual predators, big brother government, and the like. Show them that none of these are really a concern with 90 year old records, and maybe, just maybe, inspire their own interest in their heritage. If it backfires, no great loss, they are already opposed to the release in spite of our campaign! Cheers, Rob -----Original Message----- From: Gordon Booth [mailto:[email protected]] Sent: Wednesday, May 28, 2003 4:33 PM To: [email protected] Subject: RE: [CCC] Converting MPs and Senators to our cause I share this view. Providing information on the ancestors of MPs may show how easy it really is to get information about people and thus may backfire. Gordon in Ottawa -----Original Message----- From: Susan [mailto:[email protected]] Sent: May 28, 2003 1:46 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [CCC] Converting MPs and Senators to our cause Hi Everyone, This idea of doing research on the ancestors of politicians is interesting. I do wonder, though, if it might backfire. Some of these people may feel that their privacy has been invaded and therefore feel even more strongly that the census should not be released. Not everyone loves finding out about their history. We, as genealogists, appreciate the value of what we are doing and how we are contributing to the knowledge of the history of Canada. It's a good idea, Rob, and should be considered. Perhaps someone who knows these politicians personally could give some guidance on this. Regards, Susan ----- Original Message ----- From: "Muriel M. Davidson" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Tuesday, May 27, 2003 7:24 PM Subject: Re: [CCC] Converting MPs and Senators to our cause > Hello Dan:- > > In Senator Lorna Milne's speech, she emphasized how much > Canadians would be missing if we did not know the family history > of one long-serving and great politician, Senator Lowell Murray. > > Read through the various speeches, pick out the names of the > various Senators, plus Dr. Ivan P. Fellegi -- I feel these family > histories could be an asset to the proposed new history building. > > Muriel M. Davidson [email protected] > Co-Chair, Canada Census Committee > Brampton, ON > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Dan Walker" <[email protected]> > To: "Muriel M. Davidson" <[email protected]> > Cc: <[email protected]> > Sent: Tuesday, May 27, 2003 10:49 PM > Subject: Re: [CCC] Converting MPs and Senators to our cause > > > > I wouldn't mind doing one of them just to show them without the census > what > > they are missing. Include copies of census and other documents for them. > It > > could possibly wake them up. > > > > Dan Walker > > > > "Muriel M. Davidson" wrote: > > > > > Terrific idea, Rob! > > > > > > The LDS Genealogy Centres have excellent records -- and > > > very likely would be willing to assist. This evening, it was > > > announced a new List Administrator was needed, preferably > > > a Canadian and member of the church. > > > > > > Senator Milne has her ancestral charts completed, except for the > > > one or two missing family members. > > > Murray Calder, MP learned how fascinating genealogy could be > > > when his mother showed him it was more interesting than reading > > > farm magazines. > > > There are many more -- who would like to pursue family histories > > > of several of the most negative Senators? > > > > > > Muriel M. Davidson [email protected] > > > Co-Chair, Canada Census Committee > > > Brampton, ON > > > http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~downhome/nscensus.html > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > > Hello again, > > > > > > On a more constructive note, and this may be beyond our resources, but > why > > > not convert those Senators and MPs opposed to the release of the census > by > > > FINDING their GRANDPARENTS in the 1901 census on-line, and thereby > > > demonstrating how little an invasion of privacy making censuses > available > > > actually is, and the tremendous emotional rewards that can be reaped by > > > having them available for future generations? > > > > > > Just thinking out loud... > > > > > > Cheers, > > > Rob Fisher > > > > --- > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > Version: 6.0.483 / Virus Database: 279 - Release Date: 5/19/03 > > > ==== CANADA-CENSUS-CAMPAIGN Mailing List ==== > How to unsubscribe from Digest Mode. Send a message to > [email protected] that contains > (in the Subject line and body of the message) the command > -- unsubscribe -- and no additional text. > > ==== CANADA-CENSUS-CAMPAIGN Mailing List ==== Read Gordon A. Watts' column on Post 1901 Census issues at http://globalgazette.net ==== CANADA-CENSUS-CAMPAIGN Mailing List ==== How to unsubscribe from Digest Mode. Send a message to [email protected] that contains (in the Subject line and body of the message) the command -- unsubscribe -- and no additional text. --- Incoming mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.483 / Virus Database: 279 - Release Date: 5/19/2003 --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.483 / Virus Database: 279 - Release Date: 5/19/2003

Hi Lori-Ann I do not personally object to the Canada History Centre and while some things about it could possibly become a minor money maker, i.e. souvenirs etc. that is not what I am responding to. Insofar as Census is concerned, during personal conversations with National Archivist Ian Wilson he has assured me that it is his intent to make further Census records online without cost to those accessing them. In addition to the online access, Census records would continue to be available through libraries etc. in the same manner as they are today. On the online Canadian Genealogy Centre, there may be charges for some things, i.e. third party publications etc. but the bulk of the online information will be free of charge. Happy Hunting. Gordon ----- Original Message ----- From: <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Tuesday, May 27, 2003 9:10 PM Subject: [CCC] Re: Post 1901 Census - Opening of Canada History Centre Hi Gordon and Muriel, Well I must say that this certainly stinks! All the while that they have pushed Senator Milne aside and given grief to many over this issue for the Census, They decide to come out with a Canada History Centre. Sounds like a money maker to me. What odds that you will be able to access the previous Census Material at a dollar's moment yet, the fight for release has been on for so long now. My thoughts are that someone told them that they could make mega bucks on Genealogy and so now, why certainly, it just could fit in with the laws, rights and respect of those that built our Country to what it is today. I am sorry for such a harsh opinon however, this is the first thing that comes to my mind. Since joining this Site and fight for Release of Census Material, never once has this new Canada History Centre come to light. They are working on the side lines and yup, I am ticked here. Better go before I get myself in do-do.... :o) Lori-Ann

sucking and blowing at the same time is not rare talent......Confucius say nonpossible Lois Sparling wrote: > I had nothing to do with de-listing anybody. However, it is unfair and > unkind to continually berate Lorna Milne because her approach has not > yet borne fruit. It would be just as unfair to continually berate me > because Beatty et al v the Chief Statistician et al has not guaranteed > the unconditional release of the 1911 census after all. There are > limits to what a Liberal Senator can say and do. Maybe she should take > a stand and refuse to sponsor this Bill any more. Maybe there is more > she can do for us with the Bill in the House than she has been able to > do for us so far. Her statements in the Senate raise questions. My > interpretation is that she is sucking and blowing at the same time - a > rare talent. Pointed remarks can be made without flaming her or anyone > else. > > Lois Sparling > > [email protected] wrote: > > >On Tue, 27 May 2003 17:44:47 -0400, Dan Walker wrote: > > > > > > > >>Could someone send the url for her report I'd like to read it. > >> > >>Dan Walker > >> > >> > > > >This is it. > >http://www.globalgenealogy.com/Census/Sen70.htm > >Senator Milne stated: "The Standing Senate Committee on Social Affairs, Science and Technology has recommended that this bill be passed > >without amendment. I urge honourable senators to do exactly that and without delay." > >They've won. > > > >Apparently on this list, we can write kudos for Parliamentarians who agree with our "party line" of this list, but cannot criticize those > >elected officials who don't. It has been my impression that we are supposed to look up to "that person" as a standard-bearer of the > >genealogy community. I cannot do that. > >Nancy > > > > > >==== CANADA-CENSUS-CAMPAIGN Mailing List ==== > >How to unsubscribe from Digest Mode. Send a message to > >[email protected] that contains > >(in the Subject line and body of the message) the command > >-- unsubscribe -- and no additional text. > > > > > > > > > > ==== CANADA-CENSUS-CAMPAIGN Mailing List ==== > Read Gordon A. Watts' column on Post 1901 Census issues at > http://globalgazette.net

Greetings All. FYI Gordon ================================== 1455 Delia Drive Port Coquitlam, BC V3C 2V9 27 May 2003 Mr. John Bryden, MP Parliament Buildings Ottawa, Ontario K1A 0A6 Dear Sir: In recent years I have observed you on CPAC a number of times while you spoke in the House of Commons. A number of times you struck me as being very passionate in your support for access to information and your opposition to unnecessary withholding of government records from public scrutiny. In 2000 I read with interest your Private Member Bill C-206 relating to Access to Information. I was disappointed that C-206 did not at least get referred to Committee for discussion. As I recall you ventured an opinion during debate on Jason Kenney's Motion 160 that your bill might have given public access to Historic Census records after 30 years. While M-160 was deemed votable, prior to the vote Liberal MP Mac Harb moved an amendment that rendered the Motion virtually meaningless. You are aware that for the past six years there has been a public campaign by genealogists and historians. That campaign has sought to regain the public access to Historic Census records after 1901 that has been improperly, and believed illegally, withheld from public access by Canada's Chief Statistician, Dr. Ivan P. Fellegi. The campaign seeks to regain the same unrestricted access to records after 1906, that has been available for 240 years of Census records up to that time. You are on record as being supportive of the goals sought by this campaign. During our campaign we have delivered petitions to Ottawa containing more than 62,000 signatures to the Senate and the House of Commons. Untold numbers of letters and email have been sent to MPs and Senators - to the point where we have been advised that at times more letters and email were received regarding the Census access issue than on any other subject. These petitions, letters and email all sought the same thing - the return of unrestricted public access to Historic Census records after 92 years, in accordance with provisions of the Privacy Act and Regulation 6(d) attached thereto. Over the course of our campaign we have seen two governments (albeit essentially the same one), four Sessions of Parliament, at least three Motions and four Private Member Bills in the House of Commons, and two Private Member Bills in the Senate. After five years the government finally acknowledged our concerns by announcing, on 24 October 2002, that they would bring down legislation to deal with our concerns. The proposed legislation, Bill S-13, was introduced in the Senate 5 February 2003. Senator Lorna Milne, our champion in the Senate, was asked to sponsor it. It was originally felt that Senator Milne was asked to sponsor S-13 to honour the work she had done on our behalf. However, the appearance now is that it was done more to control what she was able to do during debate of the Bill, than to honour her. We are aware that Senator Milne desires the same unrestricted access to Historic Census records as we do, but as sponsor she was required to put forth the position of the Government. As I write this letter, I am advised that today (27 May 2003) Bill S-13 completed third reading in the Senate and has been delivered to the House of Commons. Bill S-13 is a disappointment! From the time it was first presented we have known that we would seek amendments to it. We were led to believe that the government would not oppose the amendments we sought. In believing that we were wrong! Four of five witnesses appearing at the Senate Committee hearings deliberating S-13 supported expected amendments. In the end run, however, no amendments were considered and there was no clause by clause deliberation of the Bill. Such consideration and deliberation was prevented by Senator Murray making the virtually unprecedented motion (by an Opposition member regarding a Government Bill) to return the Bill to the Senate without amendment. S-13 does ensure the transfer of Historic Census records to the National Archives. It does ensure that genealogists and historians might examine those records 92 years after the Census was collected. In so doing, however, it places conditions and restrictions upon that access that go far beyond the stated purpose of removing a legal ambiguity regarding public access to these records. Genealogists and historians soundly rejected the conditions and restrictions imposed by Bill S-13 in 2000 when Statistics Canada first proposed their so-called "compromise solution". They were rejected again when that "compromise solution" was put forth during Town Hall Meetings and Focus groups held in December 2001 and January 2002. They go against recommendations of the Expert Panel on Access to Historic Census Records commissioned by the government in November 1999. They go against all studies that have examined the access issue. They go against the precedent of 240 years of Census records that have already been made available without restriction. They go against the unrestricted access requested by Canadians, and others, through the petitions, letters and email mentioned above. They go against the precedent of more than one billion people having been enumerated in Canada, England and Wales, and the United States without a single recorded complaint regarding information from Census being released after a period of closure. The conditions of Bill S-13 include: · Committing genealogists to an "undertaking" not to disclose to others, information other than basic "tombstone" information, for an additional twenty years beyond the 92-year period after which access to the records was permitted. The "undertaking" was not spelled out but was to be "prescribed by regulation". · In addition to committing to the same "undertaking" required of genealogists, those doing historical research would be required to have their research sanctioned by "a person who is a member of a category prescribed by regulation". Again, by "regulation" that has not yet been made clear to the public. · The imposition of the above conditions upon the 1911 and 1916 Census records that, under the current Privacy Act and Regulation 6(d) attached thereto should be released unconditionally on the same basis as were the records of the 1906 Census of the North-Western Provinces. The 1911 and 1916 Censuses were conducted under the same legislation and similar Instructions to Enumerators (having the Force of Law) as was the 1906 Census. · The imposition of an "informed consent" clause whereby future access to individual records of Census from 2006 and later would not be allowed without the express permission (at the time the Census was taken) of the individual providing the information. · Inclusion of a fine, not to exceed one thousand dollars, for anyone found guilty on summary conviction, of violating the above "undertaking". The government has not demonstrated any need for the conditions and restrictions imposed by Bill S-13. There has been no public outcry against public access to these most valuable records after the mandated period of closure. National Archivist Ian Wilson and Information Commissioner John Reid are both on record as supporting unrestricted public access to all Historic Census records. The Information Commissioner, in a letter to Senator Kirby - Chair of the Senate Standing Committee on Social Affairs, Science and Technology, stated about the 'informed consent' clause of Bill S-13: "If the proposed consent provision is the price the pay for opening past census records to research use, then it is too high a price to pay. The historical database represented by census responses constitutes a developing, growing database of vital interest to the nation. It would be unprecedented and unacceptable to degrade its usefulness to future generations by the inevitable incompleteness that would result if even a small percentage of Canadians withhold consent. The fact that it is a legal obligation to complete the census is testimony to the importance of this database. If Canadians have no choic e when it comes to the completion of census forms, they should have no ability to choose, by withholding consent, to impair forever, legitimate public use of future census data. I cannot accept that all census records predating 2006 will be open in the future, but not subsequent census dates. I therefore urge your committee to reject the consent provision for post-2006 census records.." If, as stated, the purpose of S-13 is to clarify and remove a "legal ambiguity" regarding public access to Census records, then it should do just that. It should be sufficient to simply state that Historic Records of Census shall be transferred to the care and control of the National Archivist for subsequent public access in accordance with provisions in the Privacy Act and Regulation 6(d). Considering the foregoing, it is our hope, that as a believer in greater public access to government records you will consider moving and promoting a number of amendments to Bill S-13 when it is debated in the House. The amendments sought by the people are, in order of importance: Removal of Clause 8 - the supposed "informed consent" clause. This clause, if retained, will destroy forever any possibility of Census from 2006 and later being used for any scientific, demographic or historical research, and will prevent many genealogists from being able to research their ancestry. We originally felt it acceptable to simply make it an OPT-OUT provision rather than OPT-IN thus ensuring that only those who had given conscious thought to the issue and specifically objected to access of their information 92 years in the future would be excluded from the records. On further reflection, however, we now agree with the Information Commissioner that this provision should be removed in its entirety. Removal of all restrictions or conditions for access for at least the 1911 and 1916 Census records. The 1911 and 1916 Censuses were conducted under the same legislation and similar Instructions to Enumerators (having the Force of Law), as was the 1906 Census, the records of which have been released without restrictions of any kind, and have been placed online for the World to view. Removal of the "twenty-year" period during which only partial disclosure of information found in Census records might be made by a researcher, and the need to commit to an "undertaking" regarding this partial disclosure. Need for these conditions have not been demonstrated. They contribute nothing to the privacy of respondents to Census. They do not prevent information from being known. They create a costly, bureaucratic procedure that in the end run will simply be an inconvenience for those that would share information through their family history. Mr. Bryden, we seek a free and open debate of the merit, or otherwise, of the conditions and restrictions imposed by S-13, and the amendments that we desire. We seek a free vote in the House. It is our sincere hope that you will do everything you can to see that if Bill S-13 is passed in the House it is a Bill that is truly reflective of what the public seeks. That being the same unrestricted public access to all Historic Census records that has been available for 240 years of records up to 1906. Please help ensure that S-13 is a Bill that we can support without reservation. I remain available for any consultation that you may require. Thank you. Sincerely, Gordon A. Watts [email protected] Co-chair, Canada Census Committee Tel (604) 942-6889 Fax (604) 942-6843 Cc: Senator Lorna Milne, MP Murray Calder

Greetings All. The Hansard extract of yesterdays Senate Debate on Bill S-13 is now online at the Post 1901 Census Project website. It is disappointingly short -- no debate -- simply a motion to pass third reading and refer it to the House of Commons. Gordon

The senators are probably part of the 1901 census. Ron

I share this view. Providing information on the ancestors of MPs may show how easy it really is to get information about people and thus may backfire. Gordon in Ottawa -----Original Message----- From: Susan [mailto:[email protected]] Sent: May 28, 2003 1:46 PM To: [email protected] Subject: Re: [CCC] Converting MPs and Senators to our cause Hi Everyone, This idea of doing research on the ancestors of politicians is interesting. I do wonder, though, if it might backfire. Some of these people may feel that their privacy has been invaded and therefore feel even more strongly that the census should not be released. Not everyone loves finding out about their history. We, as genealogists, appreciate the value of what we are doing and how we are contributing to the knowledge of the history of Canada. It's a good idea, Rob, and should be considered. Perhaps someone who knows these politicians personally could give some guidance on this. Regards, Susan ----- Original Message ----- From: "Muriel M. Davidson" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Tuesday, May 27, 2003 7:24 PM Subject: Re: [CCC] Converting MPs and Senators to our cause > Hello Dan:- > > In Senator Lorna Milne's speech, she emphasized how much > Canadians would be missing if we did not know the family history > of one long-serving and great politician, Senator Lowell Murray. > > Read through the various speeches, pick out the names of the > various Senators, plus Dr. Ivan P. Fellegi -- I feel these family > histories could be an asset to the proposed new history building. > > Muriel M. Davidson [email protected] > Co-Chair, Canada Census Committee > Brampton, ON > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Dan Walker" <[email protected]> > To: "Muriel M. Davidson" <[email protected]> > Cc: <[email protected]> > Sent: Tuesday, May 27, 2003 10:49 PM > Subject: Re: [CCC] Converting MPs and Senators to our cause > > > > I wouldn't mind doing one of them just to show them without the census > what > > they are missing. Include copies of census and other documents for them. > It > > could possibly wake them up. > > > > Dan Walker > > > > "Muriel M. Davidson" wrote: > > > > > Terrific idea, Rob! > > > > > > The LDS Genealogy Centres have excellent records -- and > > > very likely would be willing to assist. This evening, it was > > > announced a new List Administrator was needed, preferably > > > a Canadian and member of the church. > > > > > > Senator Milne has her ancestral charts completed, except for the > > > one or two missing family members. > > > Murray Calder, MP learned how fascinating genealogy could be > > > when his mother showed him it was more interesting than reading > > > farm magazines. > > > There are many more -- who would like to pursue family histories > > > of several of the most negative Senators? > > > > > > Muriel M. Davidson [email protected] > > > Co-Chair, Canada Census Committee > > > Brampton, ON > > > http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~downhome/nscensus.html > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > > > > > Hello again, > > > > > > On a more constructive note, and this may be beyond our resources, but > why > > > not convert those Senators and MPs opposed to the release of the census > by > > > FINDING their GRANDPARENTS in the 1901 census on-line, and thereby > > > demonstrating how little an invasion of privacy making censuses > available > > > actually is, and the tremendous emotional rewards that can be reaped by > > > having them available for future generations? > > > > > > Just thinking out loud... > > > > > > Cheers, > > > Rob Fisher > > > > --- > Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. > Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). > Version: 6.0.483 / Virus Database: 279 - Release Date: 5/19/03 > > > ==== CANADA-CENSUS-CAMPAIGN Mailing List ==== > How to unsubscribe from Digest Mode. Send a message to > [email protected] that contains > (in the Subject line and body of the message) the command > -- unsubscribe -- and no additional text. > > ==== CANADA-CENSUS-CAMPAIGN Mailing List ==== Read Gordon A. Watts' column on Post 1901 Census issues at http://globalgazette.net

Greetings all. It would appear that a number of people have forgotten the reason the CCC list was set up in June of 1999. The purpose of the CCC is to inform people regarding what is happening regarding efforts to regain unrestricted public access to Post 1901 (now Post 1906) Census records. It is to seek their opinions regarding those efforts and to attempt to answer questions regarding the Census Campaign. It is to unite those concerned with regaining public access to the records that we have been denied, and to encourage them to work together to seek the changes we desire. Many of the posts to the list in the past couple of days do not reflect the reason the list exists. The purpose of the list is not to discuss whether or not I, as list administrator, was justified in unsubbing an individual who, after repeated requests to do so, refused to cease FLAMING in his posts. If you have a problem with my doing so -- advise me privately -- not on the list. I will be happy to respond privately to reasonable messages. That individual was not unsubbed because of his opinion regarding Bill S-13, but because he continued his FLAMING after repeated requests to stop. Mr. Stewart was asked to be factual in his statements. Some of what he stated was factual, but his conjecture about what MIGHT happen was not. He put his conjecture through as facts, rather than his opinion. The purpose of this list is not to discuss the Canada History Centre and whether it is a monument to Jean Chretien. My purpose in posting information regarding the Canada History Centre and statements made in the press release, backgrounder and the PMs speech was to hopefully trigger some letters to Jean Chretien that would emphasize the importance of Census to the history of ordinary Canadians. Unfortunately all it seems to have triggered are complaints to the list. In the past couple of days I have been accused of being 'narrow minded' and being 'duped', and that I 'toe the party line'. I plead 'not guilty' on all counts. My politics are my own business but they are basically this -- I have none! I belong to, and support no political party. I have one goal, and that is unrestricted public access to all Census records. Jeff Paul and Senator Milne do not always agree with my opinions but they know that if I disagree with something I will say so. They have been told this and they respect my right to do so. In my posts to the lists and in my Post 1901 Census column I have not hesitated to state when I disagreed with something relating to the Census issue. Just so there is no doubt about my position -- I do not agree with Bill S-13 as currently worded and am doing everything I can to see that changes are made. How many others on the list are doing likewise? Some are, but many are not. To simply complain on the list accomplishes nothing but some venting. Voice your complaints about the conditions and restrictions of Bill S-13 to the Members of Parliament that will now have the chance to debate the issues in the House of Commons. Tell them the amendments we seek and ask them to support those amendments. Do it now! Tomorrow may be too late. The dissention of the past few days has caused at least 30 CCC listers to unsubscribe. That accomplishes nothing. With respect, I ask all listers to get back to the purpose of this list, to discuss the Census issue and to seek resolution of that issue. If you take exception to what I say in this post please do so privately -- not on the list. Happy Hunting. Gordon A. Watts List administrator.

I'm planning to check online newspapers for Alberta around the end of June 1906 to see if there are any comments about the census in editorials. A town with a weekly paper is easier than checking a large city with daily papers. Calgary Herald March 8, 1890 article was found by chance. "It is to be hoped that the results of the census taking in 1891 will prove more satisfactory than those of 1881." Comments about the census might have been published any time there was a government debate or results, not just the weeks that local census takers were going door to door. Some pages for 1901 & 1906 have the date of the census taker's visit. Some sub-districts did not have continuous or accurate household numbers. Some 1906 images of census pages are repeated and not in any logical order of page number or date of visit. "The forms and instructions prepared by the Census and Statistics Office received government of Canada assent on 15 May 1906 and were published in the Canada Gazette 21 May 1906. The 1906 census then officially began 24 June 1906." We are all hoping to find OUR relatives on 1911 pages with clear handwriting and correctly answered questions. Sometimes it is possible to identify the census taker as a man of a certain age with particular occupation. Spelling accuracy of common names gives an idea of reading skills. -- Elizabeth

Dear Mr. Wilson-Smith; Further to my letter of 27 May 2003 I find that Mr Watts e-mail address I sent is incorrect, it is [email protected] His 'phone no.in Vancouver is 604-942-6889. You may also contact Muriel Davidson in Brampton, Ontario whose e-mail address is [email protected] Both Gordon and Muriel are Co-Chairs of the Canada Census Campaign. They will be able to give you the full details of the whole problem of releasing the Canada Census information. They are far more eloquent than I am on this matter. As I see the problem it boils down to whether the bureaucrats should determine how this country should be run or the politicians. I understand that Paul Martin has some concerns that the bureaucrats are making the law when they should be listening to the people. I would urge you to look into this matter as it will make a very interesting article for a future edition of Macleans. Thank you for your time. Yours truly Malcolm A. Shaw 1313 Lake Fraser Green S.E. Calgary, Alberta T2J 7H6 'phone - 403-255-0337

<Our country is ruled by Ontario and Quebec, and they have voted in the Liberal MP's. Are all those genealogists in Ontario and Quebec writing letters? I encourage all those Ontario and Quebec voters to write their MP's and to also submit a request for Freedom of Information to access the 1911 census.> I live in Ontario I did NOT vote for Liberals Yes I have been writing my letters I have a phone call in to my MP and waiting for reply.(He did return call but I was not here when he called . Carol (tweetybird) Home page:<http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.com/~tweetybirdgenealogy/> Visit my home page for "Home Children" information and other "world wide" links plus various passenger lists. Searching : Hart, Haslip, Jackson, Stevens, Little, Budge, Chipman, Welch, Russell, Johns & Glover --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.483 / Virus Database: 279 - Release Date: 5/19/03

Greetings. So the infamous Bill S-13 has made its way out of the Senate towards the House of Commons. With the current agenda there and the plan to break for summer recess in 3-4 weeks, who knows what sort of reception it will get. We have been told that if any amendments are made, it will, at best, have to be referred back to the Senate and at worst get withdrawn by the government. I have been a strong supporter of the census release movement for some years and I applaud those whose efforts have managed to steer us to this point. Although it may seem to have got missed amongst all the negative debate, the bill does accomplish two things we have been seeking: - transfer of census records to the National Archives - access to pre-2003 family information after 92 years As others have pointed out in great detail it contains three items that genealogists don't like: - the imposition of "informed consent" for the 2006 and later censuses - the "undertaking" and a curb on "disclosure" until 112 years - the (possible) application of these curbs on the 1911 and 1916 censuses My friend Bob Westbury has focussed on the negative items and gone so far as to declare the bill a "genealogical catastrophe". He and others have urged that we work to DEFEAT this legislation if we cannot obtain the amendments we have asked for. I agree with all of those who advocate working hard to obtain amendments, but I also believe it would not be the end of the world if the bill passes as is. More changes can and will be made over the next 90 years. In 2003 we genealogists rely very much on census information to establish our ancestry in the 1800's and early 1900's. But when the genealogists amongst our great grandchildren look back to 2006, I am sure they will have many, many other and richer resources from directories, voter lists, vital statistics, registrations, permits and pictures. Don't we claim to be living in the information age? I expect they will have little trouble darning any holes left by those families who might choose to block the release of their census responses. So I advocate SUPPORTING the legislation with or without the amendments we think are needed. Ian Holmes, Edmonton On Tue, 27 May 2003 21:06:48 -0700 Gordon A. Watts wrote: > > Greetings All. > > I was advised this afternoon that Bill S-13 - An act to amend the > Statistics Act, completed third reading in the Senate today and has been > referred to the House of Commons. It was passed in the Senate without > amendment.......

The idea of assisting politicians with finding family members seemed a good idea -- but it could have one healthy back kick!! There are a number of Members of Parliament who are involved in genealogy -- who knows, one or more might offer a partial one-page history as a sample. Honestly, I feel we should forget this possible "invasion of their privacy" as it could be termed. Instead -- think and prepare your Access for Information form to be mailed AFTER June 1, 2003. It is only $5.00 -- but might be money well spent. Muriel ----- Original Message ----- From: "Susan" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Wednesday, May 28, 2003 1:46 PM Subject: Re: [CCC] Converting MPs and Senators to our cause > Hi Everyone, > This idea of doing research on the ancestors of politicians is > interesting. I do wonder, though, if it might backfire. > > Some of these people may feel that their privacy has been invaded and > therefore feel even more strongly that the census should not be > released. > > Not everyone loves finding out about their history. > > We, as genealogists, appreciate the value of what we are doing and how > we are contributing to the knowledge of the history of Canada. > > It's a good idea, Rob, and should be considered. Perhaps someone who > knows these politicians personally could give some guidance on this. > > Regards, > Susan --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.483 / Virus Database: 279 - Release Date: 5/19/03

April. When the 1906 records were released and put online, it killed our legal action. We cannot proceed to the courts for something that has not yet happened -- only for something that has happened, or for something that should have happened that did not. That is the reason for making an Access to Information (not Freedom of Information) request. Until our requests for access to the 1911 records is refused, we do not have any cause for an action in the courts. The reason for making a complaint to the Information Commissioner regarding the refusal to grant access to the 1911 records is to get a step closer to seeing a court action take place. The Information Commissioner was prepared to go to court for the 1906 records -- we expect because the 1911 Census was conducted under the same legislation and similar Instructions to Enumerators as was the 1906, the Information Commissioner should likely take the same position for the 1911. Happy Hunting Gordon ----- Original Message ----- From: "April Bell" <[email protected]> To: <[email protected]> Sent: Wednesday, May 28, 2003 11:20 AM Subject: [CCC] Freedom of Information Request Gordon, Muriel and other listers, I have my Freedom of Information Form filled out and ready for mailing June 2nd. I'll spend the 5 dollars and skip a fast food meal! I personally have come to believe that this Bill S-13 is a disaster. I'm not blaming anyone; we all have different views. Have read the Hansard excerpt...how discouraging! I think we are stuck between a rock and a hard place, and I'm not sure what the answer is, but I'm sending in my request. As for this new History Museum of Jean Chretien's, I agree that it is just going to be a monument to himself...I guess he can't have a presidential library, so this will do? Unless there is information forthcoming that this museum will provide access to the history of the working classes of this country(which is mostly found in census), it appears that it is going to be just a storage place for documents to do with politicians. This country needs political reform now, and we sure aren't going to get it under any liberal government, no matter who leads it. In BC we really have no representation in Ottawa (my apologies to Chuck Strahl) because we have 6(I stand to be corrected) liberal MP's and they are puppets of Mr. Chretien. Our country is ruled by Ontario and Quebec, and they have voted in the Liberal MP's. Are all those genealogists in Ontario and Quebec writing letters? I encourage all those Ontario and Quebec voters to write their MP's and to also submit a request for Freedom of Information to access the 1911 census. I think our best bet was to have gone to the courts with this, is it really too late? Just some thoughts.... April in BC ==== CANADA-CENSUS-CAMPAIGN Mailing List ==== How to unsubscribe from Mail Mode. Send a message to [email protected] that contains (in the Subject line and body of the message) the command -- unsubscribe -- and no additional text.

There is no "party line" on this list. There is the "save Bill S-13" school of thought and the "kill Bill S-13" school of thought. I am a strong proponent of the latter and have not been booted from the list. However, I think we all agree on the 3 changes we want to see. Lois Sparling Calgary, Alberta [email protected] wrote: >It seems to me that Gordon summed up very succinctly the party line of this list in his post: >A few realities, Thu, 22 May 2003 22:25:52 0700. >In that post, he sums up the current issues surrounding S-13 and advocates pursuing amendments. >You can read the various posts in the archives to get a sense of the issues and differing points of view. >http://archiver.rootsweb.com/th/index/CANADA-CENSUS-CAMPAIGN/ >Nancy > > >==== CANADA-CENSUS-CAMPAIGN Mailing List ==== >Keep up to date on Post 1901 Census Issues at > http://globalgenealogy.com/Census/ >en français http://globalgenealogy.com/Census/Index_f.htm > > > >

I had nothing to do with de-listing anybody. However, it is unfair and unkind to continually berate Lorna Milne because her approach has not yet borne fruit. It would be just as unfair to continually berate me because Beatty et al v the Chief Statistician et al has not guaranteed the unconditional release of the 1911 census after all. There are limits to what a Liberal Senator can say and do. Maybe she should take a stand and refuse to sponsor this Bill any more. Maybe there is more she can do for us with the Bill in the House than she has been able to do for us so far. Her statements in the Senate raise questions. My interpretation is that she is sucking and blowing at the same time - a rare talent. Pointed remarks can be made without flaming her or anyone else. Lois Sparling [email protected] wrote: >On Tue, 27 May 2003 17:44:47 -0400, Dan Walker wrote: > > > >>Could someone send the url for her report I'd like to read it. >> >>Dan Walker >> >> > >This is it. >http://www.globalgenealogy.com/Census/Sen70.htm >Senator Milne stated: "The Standing Senate Committee on Social Affairs, Science and Technology has recommended that this bill be passed >without amendment. I urge honourable senators to do exactly that and without delay." >They've won. > >Apparently on this list, we can write kudos for Parliamentarians who agree with our "party line" of this list, but cannot criticize those >elected officials who don't. It has been my impression that we are supposed to look up to "that person" as a standard-bearer of the >genealogy community. I cannot do that. >Nancy > > >==== CANADA-CENSUS-CAMPAIGN Mailing List ==== >How to unsubscribe from Digest Mode. Send a message to >[email protected] that contains >(in the Subject line and body of the message) the command >-- unsubscribe -- and no additional text. > > > >

Gordon, I've been following the discussion for several months. And just when I think I understand the issues and the proposed legislation, I stumble over what appear to be contradictions to my understanding. I usually wait until someone provides the answer. Today, however, after reading Senator Milne's presentation in HANSARD, April 30th, I decided to jump in. My understanding is that Bill S-13 provides for access (after 92 years) by individuals researching their family history. But HANSARD reports the Senator as having said: " Furthermore, historians or other researchers will only be allowed to have access to the records if a community leader, academic dean or a person of that stature reviews the research proposal and can vouch for the fact that the research will be beneficial to the community. " It was also my understanding that by default, personal information would not be released unless that individual had 'Opted Out' , yet the exchange between Senators Comeau and Milne indicates otherwise: " Hon. Gerald J. Comeau: Honourable senators, I have a question for Senator Milne. Did I understand correctly that, if one checks the box, he or she is not giving permission for these documents to be released, the documents are sealed forever? Senator Milne: That is correct. " Perhaps I'm not the only one who's confused. Richard --- Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.478 / Virus Database: 279 - Release Date: 19/05/03

Gordon, Muriel and other listers, I have my Freedom of Information Form filled out and ready for mailing June 2nd. I'll spend the 5 dollars and skip a fast food meal! I personally have come to believe that this Bill S-13 is a disaster. I'm not blaming anyone; we all have different views. Have read the Hansard excerpt...how discouraging! I think we are stuck between a rock and a hard place, and I'm not sure what the answer is, but I'm sending in my request. As for this new History Museum of Jean Chretien's, I agree that it is just going to be a monument to himself...I guess he can't have a presidential library, so this will do? Unless there is information forthcoming that this museum will provide access to the history of the working classes of this country(which is mostly found in census), it appears that it is going to be just a storage place for documents to do with politicians. This country needs political reform now, and we sure aren't going to get it under any liberal government, no matter who leads it. In BC we really have no representation in Ottawa (my apologies to Chuck Strahl) because we have 6(I stand to be corrected) liberal MP's and they are puppets of Mr. Chretien. Our country is ruled by Ontario and Quebec, and they have voted in the Liberal MP's. Are all those genealogists in Ontario and Quebec writing letters? I encourage all those Ontario and Quebec voters to write their MP's and to also submit a request for Freedom of Information to access the 1911 census. I think our best bet was to have gone to the courts with this, is it really too late? Just some thoughts.... April in BC