Hi Folks- no luck getting any response on the CA-HISTORY list. Do any of you have an opinion or answer for me- Thanks, Carolyn -----Original Message----- From: Carolyn Feroben <Sweetwater@sierratel.com> To: CA-HISTORY-L@history.rootsweb.com <CA-HISTORY-L@history.rootsweb.com> Date: Friday, September 29, 2000 10:50 AM Subject: [CA-HISTORY] INTELLIGENCE OFFICE-1854 >Looking at a street scene photo (ambrotype), Sonora-1854, one of the >buildings has a sign that reads: > >INTELLIGENCE OFFICE > >Anyone know what that is referring to? > > >Thanks, Carolyn > > >==== CA-HISTORY Mailing List ====

Personally, I always answer questions with a complete sentence. I don't repeat everything that has just been said in normal conversation, however; when corresponding over the internet it is much easier to follow the conversation by reading it in full. When it is being archived, what will one line answers be archived under? "Yes/No answers" -----Original Message----- From: Jim McMillen [mailto:JimMcMillen@earthlink.net] Sent: Wednesday, October 11, 2000 2:06 PM To: KellieMV Cc: CAMARIPO-L@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [CAMARIPO] Please turn off Quotes Think about this: In ordinary conversation, when responding it is rare to repeat everything that has just been said. In writing an ordinary letter, you don't quote everything that someone has just written to you. Hitting the Quote button to repeat the previous post (worse, setting options to automatically quote) is just a lazy way to get out of writing something like "The answer to your question about. . .is. . . ." Assuming the respondent is literate, what is wrong with doing that? For those who insist on using the Quote function, remember that most messages, even long ones, have only one or a few questions to answer or items requiring comment. Why not quote only those those things? The rest of the quote can be deleted like any other text. Think about this, too: every quote has to be archived, along with the original message. A five level quote means that the original is saved in 6 different locations, the next lower level in 5 places, then 4, 3, 2, and finally 1 for the last message. Especially if the original was long, that unnecessarily takes up an awful lot of memory that someone has to pay for. One list member reminds me that "Increasing demand for storage space and shortage of funds to keep purchasing more was one of the reasons that Rootsweb was sold to Ancestry!!" Cheers, Jim

Kellie, Ray Preston and I are distant cousins. His g.g. grandfather and my g.g. grandfather were brothers. Rays sister introduce me to a lot of Preston's at the reunion this year, can't remember all of them. I have a picture of (and this is what it says) Mrs. & M.L.W. Miller. I Don't know if the M means mister or? The W. could mean Wm. I have found that most of the people in Mariposa didn't go by their first names and they had some real crazy nicknames. The Turner picture is of an Eva. Roena

Since the ROGERS lived out in the White Rock area, I'm wondering if they might not be buried in the White Rock/Preston Cemetery or the Pea Ridge Cemetery on Ben Hur Rd. Are either of those cataloged? ----- Original Message ----- From: JRC <jrc38@mediaone.net> To: <CAMARIPO-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Wednesday, October 11, 2000 10:30 AM Subject: Re: [CAMARIPO] ROGERS > Thanks to all for your wonderful efforts to develop information on Thomas and Bessie ROGERS. I know nothing of Thomas' > genealogy, except he was born in England, according to the 1910 census. Whether or not he had sisters in California, I > don't know. Now that I have his date of death, I will send for his death certificate. Many thanks. I belong to several > ROOTSWEB groups, but none are as helpful and friendly as this one. > > > ==== CAMARIPO Mailing List ==== > If you have a family chronicle I will be happy to add it on the Mariposa County GenWeb Page. > >

The problem is twofold compared to "real life conversation". First, "in real life", you ask "What is your name" and I IMMEDIATELY respond "Minnie Mouse". Anyone interested has all the context of the question and answer. But in email, I ask "What is your name?" and perhaps 30-50-75 emails later depending on how much email you get and delay of response, you get an email that says "Minnie Mouse"...the obvious response is "What about Minnie Mouse?" Multiply that by 30 conversations or questions flying around and there is the opportunity to get the answers, if the questions don't appear, mixed-up. Imagine another question flying at the same time asking "What was your mother's maiden name" It could end up like Who's on First, No, What's on Second. The second problem is that the very nature of email communication and response has gone the way of the shaver...it's more disposable geared to FAST rather than the straight razor. You are asking people to totally change a mode of communication by writing out "You asked my name, my name is Minnie Mouse" While in the past people might write one or maybe two letters a day and write out sentences suitable later to become novels which can be followed, email communication is fast, choppy, and more like conversation...except of course for the delay (see #1 problem above). But then again, instead of sharing with 1 or 2 people, we may communicate with 50 or more a day. My 2 cents...you got it for free :) Sharon

Mel, Please don't leave just disks with pictures--anywhere. No one knows how long they will last, or how long the equipment to read them will be used. Print the pictures with a black laser printer on archival paper. These prints will last 200 years on acid-free paper, 400 on acid- and lignin-free paper. Details about the people and/or the pictures can be included on the same sheet of paper. At the end of the project, these pages can be bound and will be a wonderful legacy. Make more than one set of pictures and send one set to the state Library or Archives. Cheers, Jim

Hi, I just subcribed and not up to what is going on. I have PICTURES!!! I am the great grand-daughter of David Clark and also Robert Preston. These pictures have been handed down since 1853. Many are friends of the family,some are marked and others are not. Sure would like to identify them and will share with anyone who is related to them. The marked ones are: Booth-Bruce-Butler-Cane or Caine-Cathey- Cohen-Davey- DeMoss-Duncan-Elkamore-Ellington- Fergason-Galeener-Gallison-Gann-Gish-Gordon-Gorman-Green-Grojean-Herss-Kahl-Kr istopherson-Lind-Logan-Margraves-McCloud-McGandy-Miller-Ott-Palmer-Patterson-P ayne-Pratt-Quick-Revel-Schou-Skelton-Smithers-Tallman-Turner-Walters-Werly-Wil kes-Woods-Worman-Zimmerman. Roena in Rohnert Park

Think about this: In ordinary conversation, when responding it is rare to repeat everything that has just been said. In writing an ordinary letter, you don't quote everything that someone has just written to you. Hitting the Quote button to repeat the previous post (worse, setting options to automatically quote) is just a lazy way to get out of writing something like "The answer to your question about. . .is. . . ." Assuming the respondent is literate, what is wrong with doing that? For those who insist on using the Quote function, remember that most messages, even long ones, have only one or a few questions to answer or items requiring comment. Why not quote only those those things? The rest of the quote can be deleted like any other text. Think about this, too: every quote has to be archived, along with the original message. A five level quote means that the original is saved in 6 different locations, the next lower level in 5 places, then 4, 3, 2, and finally 1 for the last message. Especially if the original was long, that unnecessarily takes up an awful lot of memory that someone has to pay for. One list member reminds me that "Increasing demand for storage space and shortage of funds to keep purchasing more was one of the reasons that Rootsweb was sold to Ancestry!!" Cheers, Jim

Carolyn, this is wonderful...........and timely. I had the check in the mailbox for pickup. Thanks for saving me $8.00. It also helps to narrow down my search. If the information on the death cert is correct (and we know how unreliable this source can be), Thomas and Bessie were married somewhere in Calif other than Mariposa County. On the 1910 census they were married seven years (1903). Thomas lived in Mariposa Co. for 25 years and Calif 50 years. I don't know my Calif history that well, but I seem to recall that Fresno Co was much larger than it currently is. Could it have encompassed the White Rock District of present day Mariposa Co. prior to 1910? What I'm trying to determine is where in California to write for marriage records for the years 1902-1904? Any suggestions? Thanks again.

Hi John--- No need to send for the DC=- Here is the transcription of Thomas ROGERS DC- guess you missed it when you changed servers---!! Carolyn Date: Wed, 27 Sep 2000 13:02:10 -0700 From: "Carolyn Feroben" <Sweetwater@Sierratel.com> To: CAMARIPO-L@rootsweb.com Message-ID: <014d01c028bd$d38c6f60$12cd9bd1@funfifty> Subject: Re: [CAMARIPO] FW: Follow-up on Bessie ROGERS search in Mariposa - Fresno Gen Soc. Newsletter Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Here is the transcription for Thomas ROGERS , husband of Bessie: Resident of Mariposa District (no other address given) DOD- Oct 4, 1936 White, Male, Married Spouse- Bessie ROGERS DOB, March 25, 1861 Age: 75 years, 6 mo, 10 days Occupation: Miner, Gold Cause of Death: Chronic Mylocarditis- onset 4-2-1935 Born England Father: Thomas ROGERS, born England Mother: Unknown, born England Length of residence in District (Mariposa): 25 years Length of residence in California 50 years Informant: Bessie ROGERS burial: 10/7/1936 Mariposa Cemetery Ivers and Tiscornia Funeral Parlor Here is the website for the Meux Museum- http://www.meux.mus.ca.us/ I am still going to try to get these obits for you John. Best, Carolyn -----Original Message----- From: JRC <jrc38@mediaone.net> To: CAMARIPO-L@rootsweb.com <CAMARIPO-L@rootsweb.com> Date: Wednesday, October 11, 2000 11:51 AM Subject: Re: [CAMARIPO] ROGERS >Thanks to all for your wonderful efforts to develop information on Thomas and Bessie ROGERS. I know nothing of Thomas' >genealogy, except he was born in England, according to the 1910 census. Whether or not he had sisters in California, I >don't know. Now that I have his date of death, I will send for his death certificate. Many thanks. I belong to several >ROOTSWEB groups, but none are as helpful and friendly as this one. > > >==== CAMARIPO Mailing List ==== >If you have a family chronicle I will be happy to add it on the Mariposa County GenWeb Page. > >

Yes, that's one of the things I like about email as opposed to old-fashioned letter writing -- one doesn't have to paraphrase or copy what the correspondent wrote. One can write a reply above the original message or even open up space within the message to respond to a specific question. That way, the response is related directly to what was asked or said. It also preserves the integrity and context of the original message, which is sometimes damaged by paraphrasing. Saving the thread in the archives makes it easier for someone who comes along later and does a search. He then doesn't have to go digging back through the previous emails trying to find the original messages. I appreciate that, especially if my keyword brings up only one message in the thread. What *does* clutter up my email files unnecessarily is the receipt of both a personal and a list copy of a message, such as I just received from you. If I am posting to the list, I try to remember to delete any personal email addresses, on the assumption that the recipients will read the list message. Unfortunately, I don't always remember to do this, but I do try because duplicate messages really are superfluous and a waste of both bandwidth and storage space, imho. Of course, if anyone really *wants* to receive duplicate messages, just let me know! :) Cheers back atcha, Joan in San Jose ================================================= In a message dated 10/11/00 2:18:30 PM Pacific Daylight Time, JimMcMillen@earthlink.net writes: > > Think about this: In ordinary conversation, when responding it is rare > to repeat everything that has just been said. In writing an ordinary > letter, you don't quote everything that someone has just written to you. > Hitting the Quote button to repeat the previous post (worse, setting > options to automatically quote) is just a lazy way to get out of writing > something like "The answer to your question about. . .is. . . ." > Assuming the respondent is literate, what is wrong with doing that? > > For those who insist on using the Quote function, remember that most > messages, even long ones, have only one or a few questions to answer or > items requiring comment. Why not quote only those those things? The rest > of the quote can be deleted like any other text. > > Think about this, too: every quote has to be archived, along with the > original message. A five level quote means that the original is saved in > 6 different locations, the next lower level in 5 places, then 4, 3, 2, > and finally 1 for the last message. Especially if the original was long, > that unnecessarily takes up an awful lot of memory that someone has to > pay for. > > One list member reminds me that "Increasing demand for storage space and > shortage of funds to keep purchasing more was one of the reasons that > Rootsweb was sold to Ancestry!!" > > Cheers, Jim >

From California and Californians...volume 3 : Juan Miguel Aguirre.One of the most interesting personalities among-California's forty-niners was Juan Miguel Aguirre, who is given credit for instituting and operating the first public water system of San Francisco, and who for a long period of years remained a successful business man, property owner, and supporter of church and charitable organizations in the city. Juan Miguel Aguirre was born February 20, 1813, in Northern Spain, in a village in the Pyrenees Mountains. He was a Basque. The Basques are a remarkable people. Anthropologists claim that they are a remnant of the old civilization in Western Europe. They were established in the Iberian Peninsula before the Celts, who were the chief population of what is now Spain and France in early historical times. They maintained their integrity as a people against the successive invasions of the Germanic tribes, and mountain fastnesses marked the northern limits of the Moorish Conquest of Spain. Their native art in dancing and music has been an important contribution to the art of the world. They were hardy, adventuresome, brave and intelligent, and many of them went from their mountain homes and became famous as sailors, being among the first to navigate fishing vessels to the shores of America after the discovery by Columbus. Many of the fine virtues of this people were possessed by Juan Miguel Aguirre. He was twenty years of age when he began his own adventuresome career, as a soldier in the Carlist wars under General Zumalacarregui. In 1845 he left his home in the mountains and emigrated to Montevideo, where he engaged in the hide and tallow business. Several years later the excitement over the news of gold discoveries in California stirred him, and with his wife, Martina, he took passage on a sailing vessel, Le Bon Pere, for San Francisco, coming around Cape Horn and landing after a six months' voyage on May 15, 1849. After a brief study of the local situation he accepted as his first opportunity to identify himself with the business of the community a means of supplying the public with water. San Francisco was then largely a city of tents. Buying a donkey, he placed on either side of that humble animal a barrel, held by straps [p.122] across the back, and started peddling water from door to door. The water was sold at the price of a dollar a bucketful. As some one has pointed out, it is now possible to purchase 2,500 gallons of water from the public supply of San Francisco for a dollar, though in 1849 pure water, like all other necessary commodities, commanded a tremendously high price in San Francisco. His water supply was first obtained from Mountain Lake at the Presidio, and later he utilized the clear spring on Washington Street near Montgomery, on the site on which later stood McGuire's Opera House. Juan Miguel Aguirre's first investment in California real estate was land in the heart of the block now occupied by the "White House." At that time Dupont Place ran northeast of Dupont Street, now Grant Avenue and Ashburton Place. There were three entrances to his property, one through the Center Market on Center Street, the other Gardner Alley oH Post Street, where Mozart Hall stood, and the third was Dupont Place. Juan Miguel Aguirre also had the distinction of building the first handball court in the town, on his property at No. 2 Dupont Place. He used lumber imported from Spain. This court was the scene of many exciting contests, and one was a match between a Spanish Basque and a son of Erin, the stakes being a thousand dollars. The Basque won. This pioneer was also generous in contributions to the building of the first Spanish church in San Francisco. Rev. Father Andres Garriga was an active leader in that movement. As a result of the liberal donations made by the Aguirre family and other interested citizens the beautiful church of Nuestra Senora de Guadalupe was built on Broadway near Mason. Aguirre became known as El Patriarca to all his compatriots in San Francisco, and for years acted as the trusted fiscal agent of his people. When he died, at the ripe old age of eighty-four, August 30, 1897, he was paid tribute as having been one of the foremost representatives of his nationality in the state. He was buried with the highest honors by the Pioneer Society of California, of which organization he had long been a member. He was survived by his wife, who has since died, and by three sons and one daughter. One of the sons was the late Pedro Aguirre, who passed away in 1930. One of the grandsons is Mr. Peter Aguirre, of 1272 Broadway.

Hi Debbie- WHOOPS+ Thanks for the reminder-I did overlook adding your name to the lookups- Sorry about that- but so glad you brought it to my attention! Will add this lookup up for our next visit-! Best, Carolyn ===== PEDRO AGUIRRE listed on the 1880 Great Register, uncancelled list. I believe it also stated that he received naturalization 4 Sep. 1865, in Mariposa Ca- ================== Best, Carolyn -----Original Message----- From: DjsJeans@aol.com <DjsJeans@aol.com> >Hi Carolyn, > >On Sept. 1, I sent a query to the Mariposa site stating that I thought I had >found my gr. gr. grandfather PEDRO AGUIRRE listed on the 1880 Great Register, >uncancelled list. I believe it also stated that he received naturalization 4 >Sep. 1865, in Mariposa Ca. When I asked some advice as how to acquire a >record of his naturalization, you kindly offered to look it up on your next >visit to the hall of records, at the end of the month. > >Debbie Vertrees >Lake Worth, Florida >

Thanks to all for your wonderful efforts to develop information on Thomas and Bessie ROGERS. I know nothing of Thomas' genealogy, except he was born in England, according to the 1910 census. Whether or not he had sisters in California, I don't know. Now that I have his date of death, I will send for his death certificate. Many thanks. I belong to several ROOTSWEB groups, but none are as helpful and friendly as this one.

Hi, Carolyn and Sharon O'Branson ! I think the inclusion or non-inclusion of Indian residents in the U.S. Census illustrates once again how ambiguous the status of California Indians was during the time period from 1850 when CA became a state until 1924 when all Indians were made citizens (whether they wanted to be or not -- some tribes are struggling to regain recognition of their status as independent nations, which was taken from them in violation of international law). The treaties which U.S. Commissioners made with various California Indian tribes around 1851 were *not ratified* by the U.S. Senate, and the unratified treaties were hidden away for over 50 years. The Indians agreeing to the treaties were never informed that they were not ratified and so gave up their lands as the result of a massive fraud. During the time period prior to1924, Indians living on reservations (in other states) were not citizens because they were members of independent (though ultimately subjugated), foreign nations and were dealt with by the federal government as such, with the making of treaties and in accordance with international law. (Anybody want to get into international law?) That is why reservation Indians were not counted for purposes of determining congressional representation. It would be analogous to counting the Japanese in Occupied Japan following World War II. At the same time, the U.S. Constitution states that anyone born in the United States is a citizen, right? So after California became a state in 1850, it would seem to me that any Indians born (off the reservation) in Mariposa County (my granduncles, for example) would, ipso facto, be citizens and should have been (probably were) included in the census. It would be interesting to try to find the *instructions* given out to the census takers for the various decades and see how they were told to treat Indians in the census, whether to include them or not and/or which ones to include. Joan in San Jose ------------------ FOOTNOTE: In a small book titled "The Right To Be Indian" (Indian Historian Press, 1970), E. Schusky writes the following: "Actually, census takers have in the past determined race by inspection and may omit specific questions about race. Therefore, a number of enrolled Indians living off the reservation or Indians of more than one-quarter blood must be inaccurately reported. "The Bureau of the Census figures for the Indian population are also misleading because of occasional special censuses. In 1910 and 1930 unusual efforts were made to enumerate Indians. As a result, persons were counted as 'Indian' in 1930 who were recorded otherwise in 1920. In short, the census counts cannot be relied upon to give an accurate picture of what is happening to the Indian population. "The Bureau of Indian Affairs compiles its own population figures, but these are primarily for legal purposes. Records must be kept of Indians eligible for enrollment in the tribe. These records are suitable for the purposes of the Bureau but, unfortunately, no standard definitions of 'Indian' have been devised. As a result, Bureau figures are also unreliable for demographic analysis of the Indian population. In recent years the Bureau has shown a greater interest in the problem of accurate and standard reporting. Much more complete records are being compiled, and the data are being made available through the use of punch card tabulations [punch card? heh!!]. However, a number of problems still plague the Bureau in population analysis." (pp. 8-9) In a section on "How to Define 'Indian'," the author writes: "The discrepancies in estimates of population may be accounted for largely on the basis of differences in definition of who is an Indian. The differences between the Census Bureau and Bureau of Indian Affairs have been noted. Professor Tax and his associates developed a definition of 'societal' Indian with a focus on individuals who lived in Indian communities and identified themselves as Indians. It follows that such people must also have some kind of Indian culture. And it is precisely cultural differences which make some civil rights problems of Indians unique. The description and analysis of this situation must come later, but the relevances of Tax's figures should be noted here. It may also be noted that Tax is not alone in his definition. Louisa Shotwell, after reviewing a number of definitions, concludes, 'Probably the most reasonable working definition for us is this: An Indian is somebody of Indian descent who continues to think of himself as an Indian and whom the community thinks of as Indian ...' " (p. 10) ================================================ In a message dated 10/11/00 6:37:43 AM Pacific Daylight Time, Sweetwater@sierratel.com writes: > > >Thank you for the information on the Nara files, Carolyn. In 1880, > >Mariposa included the natives. Not only the ones who lived with white men, > >but the entire tribe at Bull Creek. Are you saying that this was in error > >or a fluke and I will never see this in any other year? > > > >Sharon > > Sharon, The quote below was found on the site with the NARA Indian films- I > included the link and that particular quote for interest- Review of their > site may clarify- > > Carolyn > > >> Because Indians on reservations were not citizens until > >>1924, 19th- and early 20th-century census takers did not count > >>Indians for congressional representation. Instead, the government > >>took special censuses in connection with Indian treaties. (The > >>government made its last treaty with the Indians in 1871.) The > >>result of many treaties was to extinguish Indian titles to land. > >>Typically, the Indians agreed to reduce their landholdings or to > >>move to an area less desired for white settlement. Some treaties > >>provided for the dissolution of the tribes and the allotment of > >>land to individual Indians. The censuses determined who was > >>eligible for the allotments. > >> > >>Carolyn > >>

Jim, I also use Eudora and I also am with earthlink.net. I don't have a problem receiving the mail...could it be because of your computer? I came up with a solution to the space used I think. I went through the last few days of mail and deleted it. When I went to empty the trash can, it informed me there were 603 messages to dump. Now, it really is Eudora "Light" again. LOL Sharon

>Thank you for the information on the Nara files, Carolyn. In 1880, >Mariposa included the natives. Not only the ones who lived with white men, >but the entire tribe at Bull Creek. Are you saying that this was in error >or a fluke and I will never see this in any other year? > >Sharon Sharon, The quote below was found on the site with the NARA Indian films- I included the link and that particular quote for interest- Review of their site may clarify- Carolyn >> Because Indians on reservations were not citizens until >>1924, 19th- and early 20th-century census takers did not count >>Indians for congressional representation. Instead, the government >>took special censuses in connection with Indian treaties. (The >>government made its last treaty with the Indians in 1871.) The >>result of many treaties was to extinguish Indian titles to land. >>Typically, the Indians agreed to reduce their landholdings or to >>move to an area less desired for white settlement. Some treaties >>provided for the dissolution of the tribes and the allotment of >>land to individual Indians. The censuses determined who was >>eligible for the allotments. >> >>Carolyn >> > >

Greetings Gang, I am still here! Soon the snakes will slither back to where they belong and the kid and I will continue to take more photos of Mariposa county tombstones. Let me have those requests at tkelley@yosemite.net and I will be happy to add them to my list. If the stones are really old I may already have taken a photo of them. Actually, the whole idea with taking the tombstone photos was to be able to leave disks with photos of what we call "endangered tombstones" some place here in Mariposa. Now, I am thinking that perhaps the Library is the place where these should be stored. Let me know... Mel _________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com. Share information about yourself, create your own public profile at http://profiles.msn.com.

Personally, I prefer to see them. Thanks, Kellie -----Original Message----- From: Jim McMillen [mailto:JimMcMillen@earthlink.net] Sent: Tuesday, October 10, 2000 9:43 PM To: CAMARIPO-L@rootsweb.com Subject: [CAMARIPO] Please turn off Quotes It is not necessary to quote, especially not in full, everything you are responding to. These long quotes take up far more memory in servers and in personal mailboxes than they are worth. I just saw one with FIVE levels of quotes--ridiculous! A simple sentence in reference to the previous email is much to be preferred in most cases. Thanks, Jim ==== CAMARIPO Mailing List ==== List of All of California Genealogy Discussion Lists: http://www.rootsweb.com/~jfuller/gen_mail_states-ca.html

It is not necessary to quote, especially not in full, everything you are responding to. These long quotes take up far more memory in servers and in personal mailboxes than they are worth. I just saw one with FIVE levels of quotes--ridiculous! A simple sentence in reference to the previous email is much to be preferred in most cases. Thanks, Jim