helen, you are a long way off for do william if the lydia to whom you refer married archibald bigsbee. Nor do i think that you necessarily have a claim to lineage of the "proven" calvert line. Lydia is the supposed do of george calvert who married ann crupper and was b c 1750. Btw, there is not a lot of documentation on this either. Joanne was writing about the supposed sister of George, of leonard calvert who was the the 2nd of known aristocracy in documentation for the calverts via his father, John. mostly what is known, is that by the time leonard came along, there was enough intermarriage with royalty that if one presumes they came late to crown recognition, it was in the 1300 - 1500 era. certainly by the time of lenard(leonard), they had gained favor extraordinairy, with the crown. they held land in wales, Ireland and of course, in england. coming forward from 3 different lines of descent of royal blood, it is presumed that by marrying into the various royal lineages, a family alliance was formed which lasted until frederick essentially ended the reign of the calverts on american soii. your lydia was not related directly to any leonard. that she married and had issue is true and perhaps you might wish to delineate your query as to william. the ark and dove were the two ships which were sent by Cecilius, my supposed ancestor, to colonize MD. Joanne could very much fill you in on this....she is known to be directly descended from lord baltimore and has been involved in gen. research in the calvert line for eons. i am not....just a beginner who has tried to sort through the various lineages which are not official according to experts. in fact, the resarcher upon whom my two references to family are known to have made mistakes, or had a personal interest. my point? do I have one? joanne and others can answer for the ark and dov. me? i am just looking everywhere i can find to look. if indeed you are related to archie and lydia, then you are quite a bit removed from leonard. not to say tat the tie does not exist.s...david --- "Helen" <hgdonald@knology.net> wrote: I am a descendant of Lydia Calvert, daughter of William Calvert, whom I understand was the son of Leonard Calvert. Lydia married Archibald Bigbee, son of Geoge Bigbee and Mary Calvert. Who was this Mary Calvert, and what is the Society of the Ark and the Dove? Helen ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Edwin Bell" <daipdq@juno.com> To: <CALVERT-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2003 10:51 PM Subject: Re: [CALVERT] Re: Mary Calvert, sister of George and daughter of Leonard > > joanne, > > i am not real formal about all of this calvert stuff. my mother was a > calvert. there was a calvert role in our family that existed up until it was passed to one of arthurs(my grandfather) brothers. boy. would i like to have > what was written--recorded from records, bibles etc. it has disappeared in the last 70 years. Mom used to steal into arthurs trunk to read it. > > i do not know if i will ever figure this out. > > IF mary existed, and I personally believe she did, then there must be documentation somewhere that demonstrates it. even if it is not known. > > This is the same way > re: the family that is out of Ireland. I personally believe that one > of leonards issue went to ireland to manage the two calvert holdings there. it only makes sense. that it is not documented may be true. I know you have commented on this before....once to a fellow whose aged feelings were hurt because she though you took umbrage with her. i told her that you were just asking questions that needed to be asked. > > But if you wish to understand history, then i think you must agree that if Leonard and george had holdings in Ireland, then they would have ensured that a member of the family controlled the interest. who knows.I just doubt that with George exploring Avalon and then MD, even if he wasn't directly involved in the MD colony, that they would relinquish such large holdings so close to home to someone outside the family. that follows the basic tenets of power and influence. So, when these folk who believe john to be son of leonard, i take it with a grain of common sense salt that it must be connected somehow...even with no documentation that proves it. > > when we examine how life was prior to our modern world, children were the means to access of power and influence, holding what you had, even on a small farm. men took other wives in order to have chidlren, especially male issue in order to farm the smallest of farms. I doubt Leonard would marry twice and not have issue, even if unable to have children himself. most men would have figured out how to come up with a child who would inherit regardless of emotional feelings(a twentieth century mystique?). > > I have no ties to MD or the calverts personally(well, that is only partially true. i knew one of the docents at riversdale...high school sweetheart that i lost twice in my life.... I just was an history > student for BA and amateur afterwards. when mom quit researching i took it over and found it to at least keep my troubled brain at bay. What I do believe is the following: Once in America with such a vast land at the edges of civilization, families allied and associated and made a > common migration. they end up time after time in the next over the mountain place to settle. they intermarry over and over. different families associate and get on board. I believe this was true the england at the time as well. it wasn't as highly cultured as we would > imagine. > > my jesuit fathers instructed me in this social history, what, 35 years > ago. I took every course i could, read every book, even russian, german and french history besides the obvious. a common pattern emerges. Where you hold territory, you put a relative to rule it or you lose it. Leonard would > have had a son in Ireland. I have no doubt about that. What happened in the intervening time is at issue, but that is documentaiton and reocrds which are sorely lacking for the era. > > I hope you take this with no apprehension. it only makes sense to me.after all, i have had to deal with the most recent discovery on the maternal(calvert) side, which indicates, oh, heavens, shall i say it? > Lawson Laughlin Spurlock = TN hawkins co. MELUNGEON. Sheesh. > > regards to you. > david > > > > --- Joanne Yundt Calvert <ladybaltimore@comcast.net> wrote: > > David, > > I appreciate you taking time with this. Being the George line, Mary is a > side interest. it's because one of our friends always claimed that he was > eligible for The Society of the Ark andThe Dave (my husband being a past > governor)and finally showed us his lineage papers that his mother had done. > He comes from the Mary Calvert-Isaac Chapline marriage, so is not eligible > for The Ark and The Dove, but probably for FFV as they arrived in Virginia > in the very early 1600's. > > Still, I am having a hard time with accepting George had any siblings. > > Joanne Calvert > ----- Original Message ----- > From: <daipdq@juno.com> > To: <CALVERT-L@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2003 9:15 PM > Subject: [CALVERT] Re: Mary Calvert, sister of George and daughter of > Leonard > > > > This is a Message Board Post that is gatewayed to this mailing list. > > > > Surnames: calvert chapline > > Classification: Query > > > > Message Board URL: > > > > http://boards.ancestry.com/mbexec/msg/an/WQH.2ACEB/996.4 > > > > Message Board Post: > > > > Joanne > > > > I somehow goofed my previous reply and am posting it again. > > I spent some time looking at UK parish and probate records and came up > with nothing. however, there are many references to this Mary, including so. > md online. no documentation. however, i found many references to an isaac > chapline who married a mary calvert b 1586(right time frame) and he migrated > to charles city area and founded chaplin(e)s > > choice. I think these references to isaac and mary pertinent and we ought > be able to find some english documentation of this marriage and perhaps even > more related to mary herself. > > > > At least if you have references to such a marriage, he being born near > where Kiplin hall was erected and she at Bolton Castle there must be more > evidence somewhere in books > > or english documentation that i was not able to find at my > > first perusal. I will continue to keep this in mind. > > > > thanks again for your kindly assistance, > > David bell > > sorry for the two earlier msg reply snafu's.....dai > > > > > > ==== CALVERT Mailing List ==== > > Any list problems or questions can be sent to the listowner, Christi > Calvert Brogan at calvert-admin@rootsweb.com > > > > > > > > ==== CALVERT Mailing List ==== > Please do not send spam warnings, chain letters, attachments and/or html or rich text formatted email to the list. 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