joanne, i am not real formal about all of this calvert stuff. my mother was a calvert. there was a calvert role in our family that existed up until it was passed to one of arthurs(my grandfather) brothers. boy. would i like to have what was written--recorded from records, bibles etc. it has disappeared in the last 70 years. Mom used to steal into arthurs trunk to read it. i do not know if i will ever figure this out. IF mary existed, and I personally believe she did, then there must be documentation somewhere that demonstrates it. even if it is not known. This is the same way re: the family that is out of Ireland. I personally believe that one of leonards issue went to ireland to manage the two calvert holdings there. it only makes sense. that it is not documented may be true. I know you have commented on this before....once to a fellow whose aged feelings were hurt because she though you took umbrage with her. i told her that you were just asking questions that needed to be asked. But if you wish to understand history, then i think you must agree that if Leonard and george had holdings in Ireland, then they would have ensured that a member of the family controlled the interest. who knows.I just doubt that with George exploring Avalon and then MD, even if he wasn't directly involved in the MD colony, that they would relinquish such large holdings so close to home to someone outside the family. that follows the basic tenets of power and influence. So, when these folk who believe john to be son of leonard, i take it with a grain of common sense salt that it must be connected somehow...even with no documentation that proves it. when we examine how life was prior to our modern world, children were the means to access of power and influence, holding what you had, even on a small farm. men took other wives in order to have chidlren, especially male issue in order to farm the smallest of farms. I doubt Leonard would marry twice and not have issue, even if unable to have children himself. most men would have figured out how to come up with a child who would inherit regardless of emotional feelings(a twentieth century mystique?). I have no ties to MD or the calverts personally(well, that is only partially true. i knew one of the docents at riversdale...high school sweetheart that i lost twice in my life.... I just was an history student for BA and amateur afterwards. when mom quit researching i took it over and found it to at least keep my troubled brain at bay. What I do believe is the following: Once in America with such a vast land at the edges of civilization, families allied and associated and made a common migration. they end up time after time in the next over the mountain place to settle. they intermarry over and over. different families associate and get on board. I believe this was true the england at the time as well. it wasn't as highly cultured as we would imagine. my jesuit fathers instructed me in this social history, what, 35 years ago. I took every course i could, read every book, even russian, german and french history besides the obvious. a common pattern emerges. Where you hold territory, you put a relative to rule it or you lose it. Leonard would have had a son in Ireland. I have no doubt about that. What happened in the intervening time is at issue, but that is documentaiton and reocrds which are sorely lacking for the era. I hope you take this with no apprehension. it only makes sense to me.after all, i have had to deal with the most recent discovery on the maternal(calvert) side, which indicates, oh, heavens, shall i say it? Lawson Laughlin Spurlock = TN hawkins co. MELUNGEON. Sheesh. regards to you. david --- Joanne Yundt Calvert <ladybaltimore@comcast.net> wrote: David, I appreciate you taking time with this. Being the George line, Mary is a side interest. it's because one of our friends always claimed that he was eligible for The Society of the Ark andThe Dave (my husband being a past governor)and finally showed us his lineage papers that his mother had done. He comes from the Mary Calvert-Isaac Chapline marriage, so is not eligible for The Ark and The Dove, but probably for FFV as they arrived in Virginia in the very early 1600's. Still, I am having a hard time with accepting George had any siblings. Joanne Calvert ----- Original Message ----- From: <daipdq@juno.com> To: <CALVERT-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2003 9:15 PM Subject: [CALVERT] Re: Mary Calvert, sister of George and daughter of Leonard > This is a Message Board Post that is gatewayed to this mailing list. > > Surnames: calvert chapline > Classification: Query > > Message Board URL: > > http://boards.ancestry.com/mbexec/msg/an/WQH.2ACEB/996.4 > > Message Board Post: > > Joanne > > I somehow goofed my previous reply and am posting it again. > I spent some time looking at UK parish and probate records and came up with nothing. however, there are many references to this Mary, including so. md online. no documentation. however, i found many references to an isaac chapline who married a mary calvert b 1586(right time frame) and he migrated to charles city area and founded chaplin(e)s > choice. I think these references to isaac and mary pertinent and we ought be able to find some english documentation of this marriage and perhaps even more related to mary herself. > > At least if you have references to such a marriage, he being born near where Kiplin hall was erected and she at Bolton Castle there must be more evidence somewhere in books > or english documentation that i was not able to find at my > first perusal. I will continue to keep this in mind. > > thanks again for your kindly assistance, > David bell > sorry for the two earlier msg reply snafu's.....dai > > > ==== CALVERT Mailing List ==== > Any list problems or questions can be sent to the listowner, Christi Calvert Brogan at calvert-admin@rootsweb.com > > ==== CALVERT Mailing List ==== Please do not send spam warnings, chain letters, attachments and/or html or rich text formatted email to the list. If in questions, please address the listowner at calvert-admin@rootsweb.com

I am a descendant of Lydia Calvert, daughter of William Calvert, whom I understand was the son of Leonard Calvert. Lydia married Archibald Bigbee, son of Geoge Bigbee and Mary Calvert. Who was this Mary Calvert, and what is the Society of the Ark and the Dove? Helen ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Edwin Bell" <daipdq@juno.com> To: <CALVERT-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2003 10:51 PM Subject: Re: [CALVERT] Re: Mary Calvert, sister of George and daughter of Leonard > > joanne, > > i am not real formal about all of this calvert stuff. my mother was a > calvert. there was a calvert role in our family that existed up until it was passed to one of arthurs(my grandfather) brothers. boy. would i like to have > what was written--recorded from records, bibles etc. it has disappeared in the last 70 years. Mom used to steal into arthurs trunk to read it. > > i do not know if i will ever figure this out. > > IF mary existed, and I personally believe she did, then there must be documentation somewhere that demonstrates it. even if it is not known. > > This is the same way > re: the family that is out of Ireland. I personally believe that one > of leonards issue went to ireland to manage the two calvert holdings there. it only makes sense. that it is not documented may be true. I know you have commented on this before....once to a fellow whose aged feelings were hurt because she though you took umbrage with her. i told her that you were just asking questions that needed to be asked. > > But if you wish to understand history, then i think you must agree that if Leonard and george had holdings in Ireland, then they would have ensured that a member of the family controlled the interest. who knows.I just doubt that with George exploring Avalon and then MD, even if he wasn't directly involved in the MD colony, that they would relinquish such large holdings so close to home to someone outside the family. that follows the basic tenets of power and influence. So, when these folk who believe john to be son of leonard, i take it with a grain of common sense salt that it must be connected somehow...even with no documentation that proves it. > > when we examine how life was prior to our modern world, children were the means to access of power and influence, holding what you had, even on a small farm. men took other wives in order to have chidlren, especially male issue in order to farm the smallest of farms. I doubt Leonard would marry twice and not have issue, even if unable to have children himself. most men would have figured out how to come up with a child who would inherit regardless of emotional feelings(a twentieth century mystique?). > > I have no ties to MD or the calverts personally(well, that is only partially true. i knew one of the docents at riversdale...high school sweetheart that i lost twice in my life.... I just was an history > student for BA and amateur afterwards. when mom quit researching i took it over and found it to at least keep my troubled brain at bay. What I do believe is the following: Once in America with such a vast land at the edges of civilization, families allied and associated and made a > common migration. they end up time after time in the next over the mountain place to settle. they intermarry over and over. different families associate and get on board. I believe this was true the england at the time as well. it wasn't as highly cultured as we would > imagine. > > my jesuit fathers instructed me in this social history, what, 35 years > ago. I took every course i could, read every book, even russian, german and french history besides the obvious. a common pattern emerges. Where you hold territory, you put a relative to rule it or you lose it. Leonard would > have had a son in Ireland. I have no doubt about that. What happened in the intervening time is at issue, but that is documentaiton and reocrds which are sorely lacking for the era. > > I hope you take this with no apprehension. it only makes sense to me.after all, i have had to deal with the most recent discovery on the maternal(calvert) side, which indicates, oh, heavens, shall i say it? > Lawson Laughlin Spurlock = TN hawkins co. MELUNGEON. Sheesh. > > regards to you. > david > > > > --- Joanne Yundt Calvert <ladybaltimore@comcast.net> wrote: > > David, > > I appreciate you taking time with this. Being the George line, Mary is a > side interest. it's because one of our friends always claimed that he was > eligible for The Society of the Ark andThe Dave (my husband being a past > governor)and finally showed us his lineage papers that his mother had done. > He comes from the Mary Calvert-Isaac Chapline marriage, so is not eligible > for The Ark and The Dove, but probably for FFV as they arrived in Virginia > in the very early 1600's. > > Still, I am having a hard time with accepting George had any siblings. > > Joanne Calvert > ----- Original Message ----- > From: <daipdq@juno.com> > To: <CALVERT-L@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2003 9:15 PM > Subject: [CALVERT] Re: Mary Calvert, sister of George and daughter of > Leonard > > > > This is a Message Board Post that is gatewayed to this mailing list. > > > > Surnames: calvert chapline > > Classification: Query > > > > Message Board URL: > > > > http://boards.ancestry.com/mbexec/msg/an/WQH.2ACEB/996.4 > > > > Message Board Post: > > > > Joanne > > > > I somehow goofed my previous reply and am posting it again. > > I spent some time looking at UK parish and probate records and came up > with nothing. however, there are many references to this Mary, including so. > md online. no documentation. however, i found many references to an isaac > chapline who married a mary calvert b 1586(right time frame) and he migrated > to charles city area and founded chaplin(e)s > > choice. I think these references to isaac and mary pertinent and we ought > be able to find some english documentation of this marriage and perhaps even > more related to mary herself. > > > > At least if you have references to such a marriage, he being born near > where Kiplin hall was erected and she at Bolton Castle there must be more > evidence somewhere in books > > or english documentation that i was not able to find at my > > first perusal. I will continue to keep this in mind. > > > > thanks again for your kindly assistance, > > David bell > > sorry for the two earlier msg reply snafu's.....dai > > > > > > ==== CALVERT Mailing List ==== > > Any list problems or questions can be sent to the listowner, Christi > Calvert Brogan at calvert-admin@rootsweb.com > > > > > > > > ==== CALVERT Mailing List ==== > Please do not send spam warnings, chain letters, attachments and/or html or rich text formatted email to the list. If in questions, please address the listowner at calvert-admin@rootsweb.com > > > > ==== CALVERT Mailing List ==== > All messages posted to this mailing list are the property of their writers. Please obtain permission from all parties before forwarding or publishing any message from this list. > > >

Were did you get your information? Very interesting, but according to O'Gorman, William, son of Leonard, had 6 children, but no Lydia.. At 03:02 AM 5/1/03 -0400, you wrote: >I am a descendant of Lydia Calvert, daughter of William Calvert, whom I >understand was the >son of Leonard Calvert. Lydia married Archibald Bigbee, son of Geoge Bigbee >and >Mary Calvert. > >Who was this Mary Calvert, and what is the >Society of the Ark and the Dove? > >Helen >----- Original Message ----- >From: "David Edwin Bell" <daipdq@juno.com> >To: <CALVERT-L@rootsweb.com> >Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2003 10:51 PM >Subject: Re: [CALVERT] Re: Mary Calvert, sister of George and daughter of >Leonard > > > > > > joanne, > > > > i am not real formal about all of this calvert stuff. my mother was a > > calvert. there was a calvert role in our family that existed up until it >was passed to one of arthurs(my grandfather) brothers. boy. would i like to >have > > what was written--recorded from records, bibles etc. it has disappeared in >the last 70 years. Mom used to steal into arthurs trunk to read it. > > > > i do not know if i will ever figure this out. > > > > IF mary existed, and I personally believe she did, then there must be >documentation somewhere that demonstrates it. even if it is not known. > > > > This is the same way > > re: the family that is out of Ireland. I personally believe that one > > of leonards issue went to ireland to manage the two calvert holdings >there. it only makes sense. that it is not documented may be true. I know >you have commented on this before....once to a fellow whose aged feelings >were hurt because she though you took umbrage with her. i told her that you >were just asking questions that needed to be asked. > > > > But if you wish to understand history, then i think you must agree that if >Leonard and george had holdings in Ireland, then they would have ensured >that a member of the family controlled the interest. who knows.I just doubt >that with George exploring Avalon and then MD, even if he wasn't directly >involved in the MD colony, that they would relinquish such large holdings so >close to home to someone outside the family. that follows the basic tenets >of power and influence. So, when these folk who believe john to be son of >leonard, i take it with a grain of common sense salt that it must be >connected somehow...even with no documentation that proves it. > > > > when we examine how life was prior to our modern world, children were the >means to access of power and influence, holding what you had, even on a >small farm. men took other wives in order to have chidlren, especially male >issue in order to farm the smallest of farms. I doubt Leonard would marry >twice and not have issue, even if unable to have children himself. most men >would have figured out how to come up with a child who would inherit >regardless of emotional feelings(a twentieth century mystique?). > > > > I have no ties to MD or the calverts personally(well, that is only >partially true. i knew one of the docents at riversdale...high school >sweetheart that i lost twice in my life.... I just was an history > > student for BA and amateur afterwards. when mom quit researching i took it >over and found it to at least keep my troubled brain at bay. What I do >believe is the following: Once in America with such a vast land at the edges >of civilization, families allied and associated and made a > > common migration. they end up time after time in the next over the >mountain place to settle. they intermarry over and over. different families >associate and get on board. I believe this was true the england at the time >as well. it wasn't as highly cultured as we would > > imagine. > > > > my jesuit fathers instructed me in this social history, what, 35 years > > ago. I took every course i could, read every book, even russian, german >and french history besides the obvious. a common pattern emerges. Where you >hold territory, you put a relative to rule it or you lose it. Leonard would > > have had a son in Ireland. I have no doubt about that. What happened in >the intervening time is at issue, but that is documentaiton and reocrds >which are sorely lacking for the era. > > > > I hope you take this with no apprehension. it only makes sense to me.after >all, i have had to deal with the most recent discovery on the >maternal(calvert) side, which indicates, oh, heavens, shall i say it? > > Lawson Laughlin Spurlock = TN hawkins co. MELUNGEON. Sheesh. > > > > regards to you. > > david > > > > > > > > --- Joanne Yundt Calvert <ladybaltimore@comcast.net> wrote: > > > > David, > > > > I appreciate you taking time with this. Being the George line, Mary is a > > side interest. it's because one of our friends always claimed that he was > > eligible for The Society of the Ark andThe Dave (my husband being a past > > governor)and finally showed us his lineage papers that his mother had >done. > > He comes from the Mary Calvert-Isaac Chapline marriage, so is not eligible > > for The Ark and The Dove, but probably for FFV as they arrived in Virginia > > in the very early 1600's. > > > > Still, I am having a hard time with accepting George had any siblings. > > > > Joanne Calvert > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: <daipdq@juno.com> > > To: <CALVERT-L@rootsweb.com> > > Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2003 9:15 PM > > Subject: [CALVERT] Re: Mary Calvert, sister of George and daughter of > > Leonard > > > > > > > This is a Message Board Post that is gatewayed to this mailing list. > > > > > > Surnames: calvert chapline > > > Classification: Query > > > > > > Message Board URL: > > > > > > http://boards.ancestry.com/mbexec/msg/an/WQH.2ACEB/996.4 > > > > > > Message Board Post: > > > > > > Joanne > > > > > > I somehow goofed my previous reply and am posting it again. > > > I spent some time looking at UK parish and probate records and came up > > with nothing. however, there are many references to this Mary, including >so. > > md online. no documentation. however, i found many references to an isaac > > chapline who married a mary calvert b 1586(right time frame) and he >migrated > > to charles city area and founded chaplin(e)s > > > choice. I think these references to isaac and mary pertinent and we >ought > > be able to find some english documentation of this marriage and perhaps >even > > more related to mary herself. > > > > > > At least if you have references to such a marriage, he being born near > > where Kiplin hall was erected and she at Bolton Castle there must be more > > evidence somewhere in books > > > or english documentation that i was not able to find at my > > > first perusal. I will continue to keep this in mind. > > > > > > thanks again for your kindly assistance, > > > David bell > > > sorry for the two earlier msg reply snafu's.....dai > > > > > > > > > ==== CALVERT Mailing List ==== > > > Any list problems or questions can be sent to the listowner, Christi > > Calvert Brogan at calvert-admin@rootsweb.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ==== CALVERT Mailing List ==== > > Please do not send spam warnings, chain letters, attachments and/or html >or rich text formatted email to the list. If in questions, please address >the listowner at calvert-admin@rootsweb.com > > > > > > > > ==== CALVERT Mailing List ==== > > All messages posted to this mailing list are the property of their >writers. Please obtain permission from all parties before forwarding or >publishing any message from this list. > > > > > > > > > >==== CALVERT Mailing List ==== >Please visit the surname mailing list homepage at: >http://jadis.darktech.org/genealogy/calvert for information on this list, >it's member's pages, queries and other helpful genealogy pages.

Okay David, your history is better than mine. When did the Calverts gain land in Wales. It was not until George, 1st Lord Baltimore that they held land in Ireland when he was awarded the title Baron of Baltimore in 1625 and therefore, referred to as Lord Baltimore. Correction: According to the below listed article, he received lands in 1621 when he was made Chief Secretary of Ireland, the lands belonging to the O'Farrells, renouncing his estate in Longford, appointments and privileges when he becasme a Catholic in 1624. We have another problem here in that his lands were in County Longford, some 20000 acres. Most history books refer to the property as acreage in County Longford. On a flight to Ireland, I asked a young woman from County Longford if she knew where Baltimore was--the answer was Baltimore, the port town on the southern coast of Ireland. I did find an article at The Maryland Historical Society: Ardagh & Clonmacnoise Antiquarian Society Journal, 1942, vol II, No. 8, pp. 88-94 "Baltimore" by Very Rev. M. Canon J. Masterson who proposes the the actual lands given to Lord Baltimore were " Coming to the grant made to Calvert in the barony of Longford, we find the following:--Drumlish, Barragy, Derawley, Moneyachill(Ohill?), Shanabegg, Corlea, Janabegg (Eanbegs?), Garveoghill (Gar-rohill), and a number of townlands now obsolete. Besides these 2324 acres of arable land he was granted 1400 acres of bog and wood. A large portion of the said bog lies on both sides of the road from Currygranny to Cloonageehir. In this latter townland I found Baltimore; or rather Canon Gray found it for me. His parish, Bornacoola, includes several townlands in Co. Longford, and he informs me that part of Cloonageehir which lies along the east bank of the Rinn river is still called Baltimore. Thus Bornacoola has the double honor of supplying Lord Calvert, the noble Catholic peer, with his title, and of lending a name to the Primatial See of the greatest Republic in the world. I freely admit that there is an element of conjecture in my "find" and my conclusion. I found in Longford, Ballymores and Barraghmores, at first, but nowhere Baltimore. I looked for it is in Cashel. Then, in a fortunate moment, I told Canon Gray that, beyond all doubt, Lord Baltimore, founder of the great city and of Maryland State had his title from Longford, and what he told me was not quite a revelation but a striking discovery of what I had sought for, and about which I am quite content. Before I leave this subject of my search for "Baltimore in Longford," may I observe that George Calvert could hardly select an artistic title from any other part of his property? The two chief centres of his property could not allure him. Lord Ulfeete, or Lord Drumlish sound barbaric in comparison with Lord Baltimore. May I stress again that George Calvert was created a peer and chose his title while still in Longford; and that having found casually but fortunately one "Baltimore in Long! ford" we are not likely to find another." Later in the article, with reference to the awarding of the title, George accepted the title, but not the tainted lands. My husband and I had hoped to visit Baltimore, County Longford on a trip to Ireland and were sadly disappointed not to be able to do so. Have you ever done any research on the lands and title in Ireland? Joanne Calvert