This is a Message Board Post that is gatewayed to this mailing list. Surnames: CALVERT Classification: Cemetery Message Board URL: http://boards.ancestry.com/mbexec/msg/rw/WQH.2ACEB/997 Message Board Post: I photographed this gravestone in the Moore Cemetery, Arlington, Tarrant Co., Texas. Feel free to use the picture for your records. This is one of the 42,608 cemetery photos free at http://teafor2.com

Thank you. Nice of you to respond.....Joanne Ikeda > Joanne, > > I just recently found that I had a Calvert > ancestor, so I still know too little to be of > help. There are a number of good websites > online, and I suggest you check them out. > > I used Microsoft Explorer to search for > Lydia Calvert Bigbee and gradually pieced > together her line; now to the hard part, > documentation. > > Best Wishes, > Helen > ----- Original Message ----- > From: <j.ikeda@attbi.com> > To: <CALVERT-L@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Friday, May 02, 2003 11:14 AM > Subject: Re: [CALVERT] Lydia Calvert Bigbee > > > > Hello Helen........I have this history of George Calvert & Ann Crupper. I > > wonder if you can verify that it is correct? If it is not correct please > let > > me know. Also if you have any dates, marriages, children to add or any > > information I will appreciate it. > > Thank you, Joanne Ikeda > > > > GEORGE8 CALVERT (JOHN7, GEORGE6, WILLIAM5, LEONARD4, LEONARD CALVERT3 > (*), > > JOHN CALVERT2, WILLIAM CALVERT1) He married (1) ANN CRUPPER. He > married (2) > > MARY STROTHER DEATHEREDGE. > > > > Children of GEORGE CALVERT and ANN CRUPPER are: > > i. JOHN9 CALVERT. > > ii. GEORGE CALVERT. > > iii. JANE CALVERT. > > iv. LYDIA CALVERT, b. 1748; m. ARCHIBALD BIGBEE. > > v. SARAH CALVERT. > > vi. ANNE CALVERT. > > > To all who kindly replied to my first posting, I apologize for my > mistakes. > > > There is no excuse, but > > > a good reason; i.e. the aftermath of oral surgery. > > > > > > I should qualify my posting with a statement of my interests: I am NOT > > > attempting to establish a line with ANY family; rather, I am exploring > and > > > documenting, generation-by-generation, my ancestors, two of whom happen > to be > > > Lydia Calvert and her mother-in-law, Mary Calvert Bigbee, wife of George > Bigbee. > > > > > > Here is a quick sketch of the info I have on Lydia > > > Calvert's family: > > > Lydia Calvert (b. 1748) who married Archibald Bigbee, was the daughter > of George > > > Calvert and Anne Crupper, granddaughter of John Calvert and Elizabeth > > > Jane Harrison, g-granddaughter of George Calvert and > > > Elizabeth Doyne, 2nd granddaughter of William Calvert > > > and Elizabeth Stone, and 3rd g-granddaughter of > > > Leonard Calvert and Anne Brent. > > > > > > I particularly appreciate your references for I will likely be able to > find > > > these at NARAs Southeastern facility. Within coming months, I also > expect to > > > spend time in Delaware, Maryland, and DC. At the moment, returning to > Ireland > > > is not on my list, but this may change. I do plan a research trip to > Germany, > > > and > > > if useful, I could stopover in London, Edinburgh, or > > > Belfast. > > > > > > Helen Gant Donald > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ==== CALVERT Mailing List ==== > > > Please visit the surname mailing list homepage at: > > > http://jadis.darktech.org/genealogy/calvert for information on this > list, it's > > > member's pages, queries and other helpful genealogy pages. > > > > > > > > > ==== CALVERT Mailing List ==== > > Please do not send spam warnings, chain letters, attachments and/or html > or rich text formatted email to the list. If in questions, please address > the listowner at calvert-admin@rootsweb.com > > > > > > > > > > ==== CALVERT Mailing List ==== > To unsubscribe from this mailing list, please send email to: > calvert-l-request@rootsweb.com (for list mail) or calvert-d-request@rootsweb > (for digest mail) > with the body message of > UNSUBSCRIBE >

Concerning the info you have on Lydia, what is your source? Juanita At 01:40 AM 5/2/03 -0400, you wrote: >To all who kindly replied to my first posting, I apologize for my >mistakes. There is no excuse, but >a good reason; i.e. the aftermath of oral surgery. > >I should qualify my posting with a statement of my interests: I am NOT >attempting to establish a line with ANY family; rather, I am exploring and >documenting, generation-by-generation, my ancestors, two of whom happen to >be Lydia Calvert and her mother-in-law, Mary Calvert Bigbee, wife of >George Bigbee. > >Here is a quick sketch of the info I have on Lydia >Calvert's family: >Lydia Calvert (b. 1748) who married Archibald Bigbee, was the daughter of >George Calvert and Anne Crupper, granddaughter of John Calvert and Elizabeth >Jane Harrison, g-granddaughter of George Calvert and >Elizabeth Doyne, 2nd granddaughter of William Calvert >and Elizabeth Stone, and 3rd g-granddaughter of >Leonard Calvert and Anne Brent. > >I particularly appreciate your references for I will likely be able to >find these at NARAs Southeastern facility. Within coming months, I also >expect to spend time in Delaware, Maryland, and DC. At the moment, >returning to Ireland is not on my list, but this may change. I do plan a >research trip to Germany, and >if useful, I could stopover in London, Edinburgh, or >Belfast. > >Helen Gant Donald > > > > >==== CALVERT Mailing List ==== >Please visit the surname mailing list homepage at: >http://jadis.darktech.org/genealogy/calvert for information on this list, >it's member's pages, queries and other helpful genealogy pages.

Hello Helen........I have this history of George Calvert & Ann Crupper. I wonder if you can verify that it is correct? If it is not correct please let me know. Also if you have any dates, marriages, children to add or any information I will appreciate it. Thank you, Joanne Ikeda GEORGE8 CALVERT (JOHN7, GEORGE6, WILLIAM5, LEONARD4, LEONARD CALVERT3 (*), JOHN CALVERT2, WILLIAM CALVERT1) He married (1) ANN CRUPPER. He married (2) MARY STROTHER DEATHEREDGE. Children of GEORGE CALVERT and ANN CRUPPER are: i. JOHN9 CALVERT. ii. GEORGE CALVERT. iii. JANE CALVERT. iv. LYDIA CALVERT, b. 1748; m. ARCHIBALD BIGBEE. v. SARAH CALVERT. vi. ANNE CALVERT. > To all who kindly replied to my first posting, I apologize for my mistakes. > There is no excuse, but > a good reason; i.e. the aftermath of oral surgery. > > I should qualify my posting with a statement of my interests: I am NOT > attempting to establish a line with ANY family; rather, I am exploring and > documenting, generation-by-generation, my ancestors, two of whom happen to be > Lydia Calvert and her mother-in-law, Mary Calvert Bigbee, wife of George Bigbee. > > Here is a quick sketch of the info I have on Lydia > Calvert's family: > Lydia Calvert (b. 1748) who married Archibald Bigbee, was the daughter of George > Calvert and Anne Crupper, granddaughter of John Calvert and Elizabeth > Jane Harrison, g-granddaughter of George Calvert and > Elizabeth Doyne, 2nd granddaughter of William Calvert > and Elizabeth Stone, and 3rd g-granddaughter of > Leonard Calvert and Anne Brent. > > I particularly appreciate your references for I will likely be able to find > these at NARAs Southeastern facility. Within coming months, I also expect to > spend time in Delaware, Maryland, and DC. At the moment, returning to Ireland > is not on my list, but this may change. I do plan a research trip to Germany, > and > if useful, I could stopover in London, Edinburgh, or > Belfast. > > Helen Gant Donald > > > > > ==== CALVERT Mailing List ==== > Please visit the surname mailing list homepage at: > http://jadis.darktech.org/genealogy/calvert for information on this list, it's > member's pages, queries and other helpful genealogy pages. >

Joanne, I just recently found that I had a Calvert ancestor, so I still know too little to be of help. There are a number of good websites online, and I suggest you check them out. I used Microsoft Explorer to search for Lydia Calvert Bigbee and gradually pieced together her line; now to the hard part, documentation. Best Wishes, Helen ----- Original Message ----- From: <j.ikeda@attbi.com> To: <CALVERT-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Friday, May 02, 2003 11:14 AM Subject: Re: [CALVERT] Lydia Calvert Bigbee > Hello Helen........I have this history of George Calvert & Ann Crupper. I > wonder if you can verify that it is correct? If it is not correct please let > me know. Also if you have any dates, marriages, children to add or any > information I will appreciate it. > Thank you, Joanne Ikeda > > GEORGE8 CALVERT (JOHN7, GEORGE6, WILLIAM5, LEONARD4, LEONARD CALVERT3 (*), > JOHN CALVERT2, WILLIAM CALVERT1) He married (1) ANN CRUPPER. He married (2) > MARY STROTHER DEATHEREDGE. > > Children of GEORGE CALVERT and ANN CRUPPER are: > i. JOHN9 CALVERT. > ii. GEORGE CALVERT. > iii. JANE CALVERT. > iv. LYDIA CALVERT, b. 1748; m. ARCHIBALD BIGBEE. > v. SARAH CALVERT. > vi. ANNE CALVERT. > > To all who kindly replied to my first posting, I apologize for my mistakes. > > There is no excuse, but > > a good reason; i.e. the aftermath of oral surgery. > > > > I should qualify my posting with a statement of my interests: I am NOT > > attempting to establish a line with ANY family; rather, I am exploring and > > documenting, generation-by-generation, my ancestors, two of whom happen to be > > Lydia Calvert and her mother-in-law, Mary Calvert Bigbee, wife of George Bigbee. > > > > Here is a quick sketch of the info I have on Lydia > > Calvert's family: > > Lydia Calvert (b. 1748) who married Archibald Bigbee, was the daughter of George > > Calvert and Anne Crupper, granddaughter of John Calvert and Elizabeth > > Jane Harrison, g-granddaughter of George Calvert and > > Elizabeth Doyne, 2nd granddaughter of William Calvert > > and Elizabeth Stone, and 3rd g-granddaughter of > > Leonard Calvert and Anne Brent. > > > > I particularly appreciate your references for I will likely be able to find > > these at NARAs Southeastern facility. Within coming months, I also expect to > > spend time in Delaware, Maryland, and DC. At the moment, returning to Ireland > > is not on my list, but this may change. I do plan a research trip to Germany, > > and > > if useful, I could stopover in London, Edinburgh, or > > Belfast. > > > > Helen Gant Donald > > > > > > > > > > ==== CALVERT Mailing List ==== > > Please visit the surname mailing list homepage at: > > http://jadis.darktech.org/genealogy/calvert for information on this list, it's > > member's pages, queries and other helpful genealogy pages. > > > > > ==== CALVERT Mailing List ==== > Please do not send spam warnings, chain letters, attachments and/or html or rich text formatted email to the list. If in questions, please address the listowner at calvert-admin@rootsweb.com > > >

To all who kindly replied to my first posting, I apologize for my mistakes. There is no excuse, but a good reason; i.e. the aftermath of oral surgery. I should qualify my posting with a statement of my interests: I am NOT attempting to establish a line with ANY family; rather, I am exploring and documenting, generation-by-generation, my ancestors, two of whom happen to be Lydia Calvert and her mother-in-law, Mary Calvert Bigbee, wife of George Bigbee. Here is a quick sketch of the info I have on Lydia Calvert's family: Lydia Calvert (b. 1748) who married Archibald Bigbee, was the daughter of George Calvert and Anne Crupper, granddaughter of John Calvert and Elizabeth Jane Harrison, g-granddaughter of George Calvert and Elizabeth Doyne, 2nd granddaughter of William Calvert and Elizabeth Stone, and 3rd g-granddaughter of Leonard Calvert and Anne Brent. I particularly appreciate your references for I will likely be able to find these at NARAs Southeastern facility. Within coming months, I also expect to spend time in Delaware, Maryland, and DC. At the moment, returning to Ireland is not on my list, but this may change. I do plan a research trip to Germany, and if useful, I could stopover in London, Edinburgh, or Belfast. Helen Gant Donald

Joanne, I am not disagreeing with the origin in Flanders. However, There is some indication that John was Born in Wales. Which would indicate that William at least traveled there or held some sort of office there or had land in Wales. I will pick up Foster's work next. You gave me some good reference material. I am aware of his work and that he was instrumental in taking a new direction on the research. This needs to be done on a continuous basis until we have gathered as much of extant doc and reference material as possible. Any time you wish to direct my attention to any documentation, book or reference, would be greatly appreciated. David --- Joanne Yundt Calvert <ladybaltimore@comcast.net> wrote: Well then, you don't subscribe to the general notion that the Calvert family originated in Flanders, weavers or merchants attracted to the area of Yorkshire which was becoming noted for its wool. I can give you a zillion references to George 1st LB if you wish or need them. However, I would recommend Foster's biography, such that it is simply because of the following statement in Richard Cox's introductory essay in Foster's book: "Indeed, his interest in Calvert as a topic of research extended over two decades, dating from his writingof the 1942 pamphlet for the dedication of the Lords Baltimore portraits presented to the Enoch Pratt Library. the production of this rather unremarkable publication certainly introduced hiim to the extant literature on George Calvert and planted the seeds for anb attempt at a fuller biography. Keenly aware of the dificiencies of the literature, Foster realized that its flaws resulted from the lack of sources on Calvert's life and the lack of research in the English repositories. In 1956, he spent nine weeks n Europe, part of theis time devoted to research on the Calvert family. Three years later, armed with a grant from the American Philsophical Society and leave time and sme additional financial support fom the Maryland Historical Society, Foster spent three monts in Englalnd concentration on the extant traces of George Calvert's life. James Foster was the first historian to attempt to use mostly European sources for the biography of George Calvert......" There was an article in London Magazine, June 1768 entitled "Memoirs of the Baltimore Family:" I know of the one transcipt that at one time was in the Philadelphia branch of the Calvert family, and have never been able to locate another copy, let alone the original. I always wondered what it would have to offer; I would guess that it might have significant info on the 18th century Calvert and not a whole lot on early generaltions. R. Winder Johnson who referes to this in his "The Ancestry of Rosalie Morris Johnson" mentions only that George's father was Leonard, son of John, Danby Wiske, Yorkshire, a country gentleman who owned land and raised cattle. Happy reading, Joanne Calvert ==== CALVERT Mailing List ==== Any list problems or questions can be sent to the listowner, Christi Calvert Brogan at calvert-admin@rootsweb.com

Joanne, Now I remember why I wrote Wales....John, father of Leonard was Born in Wales supposedly, so if WIlliam was there then they must have held land there. I have no verification of this or even that John was truly born in Wales. David --- Joanne Yundt Calvert <ladybaltimore@comcast.net> wrote: Okay David, your history is better than mine. When did the Calverts gain land in Wales. It was not until George, 1st Lord Baltimore that they held land in Ireland when he was awarded the title Baron of Baltimore in 1625 and therefore, referred to as Lord Baltimore. Correction: According to the below listed article, he received lands in 1621 when he was made Chief Secretary of Ireland, the lands belonging to the O'Farrells, renouncing his estate in Longford, appointments and privileges when he becasme a Catholic in 1624. We have another problem here in that his lands were in County Longford, some 20000 acres. Most history books refer to the property as acreage in County Longford. On a flight to Ireland, I asked a young woman from County Longford if she knew where Baltimore was--the answer was Baltimore, the port town on the southern coast of Ireland. I did find an article at The Maryland Historical Society: Ardagh & Clonmacnoise Antiquarian Society Journal, 1942, vol II, No. 8, pp. 88-94 "Baltimore" by Very Rev. M. Canon J. Masterson who proposes the the actual lands given to Lord Baltimore were " Coming to the grant made to Calvert in the barony of Longford, we find the following:--Drumlish, Barragy, Derawley, Moneyachill(Ohill?), Shanabegg, Corlea, Janabegg (Eanbegs?), Garveoghill (Gar-rohill), and a number of townlands now obsolete. Besides these 2324 acres of arable land he was granted 1400 acres of bog and wood. A large portion of the said bog lies on both sides of the road from Currygranny to Cloonageehir. In this latter townland I found Baltimore; or rather Canon Gray found it for me. His parish, Bornacoola, includes several townlands in Co. Longford, and he informs me that part of Cloonageehir which lies along the east bank of the Rinn river is still called Baltimore. Thus Bornacoola has the double honor of supplying Lord Calvert, the noble Catholic peer, with his title, and of lending a name to the Primatial See of the greatest Republic in the world. I freely admit that there is an element of conjecture in my "find" and my conclusion. I found in Longford, Ballymores and Barraghmores, at first, but nowhere Baltimore. I looked for it is in Cashel. Then, in a fortunate moment, I told Canon Gray that, beyond all doubt, Lord Baltimore, founder of the great city and of Maryland State had his title from Longford, and what he told me was not quite a revelation but a striking discovery of what I had sought for, and about which I am quite content. Before I leave this subject of my search for "Baltimore in Longford," may I observe that George Calvert could hardly select an artistic title from any other part of his property? The two chief centres of his property could not allure him. Lord Ulfeete, or Lord Drumlish sound barbaric in comparison with Lord Baltimore. May I stress again that George Calvert was created a peer and chose his title while still in Longford; and that having found casually but fortunately one "Baltimore in Long! ford" we are not likely to find another." Later in the article, with reference to the awarding of the title, George accepted the title, but not the tainted lands. My husband and I had hoped to visit Baltimore, County Longford on a trip to Ireland and were sadly disappointed not to be able to do so. Have you ever done any research on the lands and title in Ireland? Joanne Calvert ==== CALVERT Mailing List ==== No copyrighted materials are permitted on this list unless by the copyright owner themselves.

Joanne, You are correct...the lands came to George with his title, not Leonard. I am interested in the history of the Calverts and since I am doing genealogical research on my line, I have begun to dig into the more historic English heritage which includes Ireland since my Paternal line is from Armagh. I have taken one member of the lineage at a time and worked on each one for a period of time just to gather information. I would be interested myself to travel to Ireland for this purpose. That will be a ways down the road as I have much work to do here first. I had read the piece on the Longford and though the Calverts had extreme influence and power perhaps Drumlish would have been more approporiate in the end considering the antics of his lordship Frederick. I didn't think I said Wales. If so I was alluding to something else I guess. David --- Joanne Yundt Calvert <ladybaltimore@comcast.net> wrote: Okay David, your history is better than mine. When did the Calverts gain land in Wales. It was not until George, 1st Lord Baltimore that they held land in Ireland when he was awarded the title Baron of Baltimore in 1625 and therefore, referred to as Lord Baltimore. Correction: According to the below listed article, he received lands in 1621 when he was made Chief Secretary of Ireland, the lands belonging to the O'Farrells, renouncing his estate in Longford, appointments and privileges when he becasme a Catholic in 1624. We have another problem here in that his lands were in County Longford, some 20000 acres. Most history books refer to the property as acreage in County Longford. On a flight to Ireland, I asked a young woman from County Longford if she knew where Baltimore was--the answer was Baltimore, the port town on the southern coast of Ireland. I did find an article at The Maryland Historical Society: Ardagh & Clonmacnoise Antiquarian Society Journal, 1942, vol II, No. 8, pp. 88-94 "Baltimore" by Very Rev. M. Canon J. Masterson who proposes the the actual lands given to Lord Baltimore were " Coming to the grant made to Calvert in the barony of Longford, we find the following:--Drumlish, Barragy, Derawley, Moneyachill(Ohill?), Shanabegg, Corlea, Janabegg (Eanbegs?), Garveoghill (Gar-rohill), and a number of townlands now obsolete. Besides these 2324 acres of arable land he was granted 1400 acres of bog and wood. A large portion of the said bog lies on both sides of the road from Currygranny to Cloonageehir. In this latter townland I found Baltimore; or rather Canon Gray found it for me. His parish, Bornacoola, includes several townlands in Co. Longford, and he informs me that part of Cloonageehir which lies along the east bank of the Rinn river is still called Baltimore. Thus Bornacoola has the double honor of supplying Lord Calvert, the noble Catholic peer, with his title, and of lending a name to the Primatial See of the greatest Republic in the world. I freely admit that there is an element of conjecture in my "find" and my conclusion. I found in Longford, Ballymores and Barraghmores, at first, but nowhere Baltimore. I looked for it is in Cashel. Then, in a fortunate moment, I told Canon Gray that, beyond all doubt, Lord Baltimore, founder of the great city and of Maryland State had his title from Longford, and what he told me was not quite a revelation but a striking discovery of what I had sought for, and about which I am quite content. Before I leave this subject of my search for "Baltimore in Longford," may I observe that George Calvert could hardly select an artistic title from any other part of his property? The two chief centres of his property could not allure him. Lord Ulfeete, or Lord Drumlish sound barbaric in comparison with Lord Baltimore. May I stress again that George Calvert was created a peer and chose his title while still in Longford; and that having found casually but fortunately one "Baltimore in Long! ford" we are not likely to find another." Later in the article, with reference to the awarding of the title, George accepted the title, but not the tainted lands. My husband and I had hoped to visit Baltimore, County Longford on a trip to Ireland and were sadly disappointed not to be able to do so. Have you ever done any research on the lands and title in Ireland? Joanne Calvert ==== CALVERT Mailing List ==== No copyrighted materials are permitted on this list unless by the copyright owner themselves.

Well then, you don't subscribe to the general notion that the Calvert family originated in Flanders, weavers or merchants attracted to the area of Yorkshire which was becoming noted for its wool. I can give you a zillion references to George 1st LB if you wish or need them. However, I would recommend Foster's biography, such that it is simply because of the following statement in Richard Cox's introductory essay in Foster's book: "Indeed, his interest in Calvert as a topic of research extended over two decades, dating from his writingof the 1942 pamphlet for the dedication of the Lords Baltimore portraits presented to the Enoch Pratt Library. the production of this rather unremarkable publication certainly introduced hiim to the extant literature on George Calvert and planted the seeds for anb attempt at a fuller biography. Keenly aware of the dificiencies of the literature, Foster realized that its flaws resulted from the lack of sources on Calvert's life and the lack of research in the English repositories. In 1956, he spent nine weeks n Europe, part of theis time devoted to research on the Calvert family. Three years later, armed with a grant from the American Philsophical Society and leave time and sme additional financial support fom the Maryland Historical Society, Foster spent three monts in Englalnd concentration on the extant traces of George Calvert's life. James Foster was the first historian to attempt to use mostly European sources for the biography of George Calvert......" There was an article in London Magazine, June 1768 entitled "Memoirs of the Baltimore Family:" I know of the one transcipt that at one time was in the Philadelphia branch of the Calvert family, and have never been able to locate another copy, let alone the original. I always wondered what it would have to offer; I would guess that it might have significant info on the 18th century Calvert and not a whole lot on early generaltions. R. Winder Johnson who referes to this in his "The Ancestry of Rosalie Morris Johnson" mentions only that George's father was Leonard, son of John, Danby Wiske, Yorkshire, a country gentleman who owned land and raised cattle. Happy reading, Joanne Calvert

Were did you get your information? Very interesting, but according to O'Gorman, William, son of Leonard, had 6 children, but no Lydia.. At 03:02 AM 5/1/03 -0400, you wrote: >I am a descendant of Lydia Calvert, daughter of William Calvert, whom I >understand was the >son of Leonard Calvert. Lydia married Archibald Bigbee, son of Geoge Bigbee >and >Mary Calvert. > >Who was this Mary Calvert, and what is the >Society of the Ark and the Dove? > >Helen >----- Original Message ----- >From: "David Edwin Bell" <daipdq@juno.com> >To: <CALVERT-L@rootsweb.com> >Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2003 10:51 PM >Subject: Re: [CALVERT] Re: Mary Calvert, sister of George and daughter of >Leonard > > > > > > joanne, > > > > i am not real formal about all of this calvert stuff. my mother was a > > calvert. there was a calvert role in our family that existed up until it >was passed to one of arthurs(my grandfather) brothers. boy. would i like to >have > > what was written--recorded from records, bibles etc. it has disappeared in >the last 70 years. Mom used to steal into arthurs trunk to read it. > > > > i do not know if i will ever figure this out. > > > > IF mary existed, and I personally believe she did, then there must be >documentation somewhere that demonstrates it. even if it is not known. > > > > This is the same way > > re: the family that is out of Ireland. I personally believe that one > > of leonards issue went to ireland to manage the two calvert holdings >there. it only makes sense. that it is not documented may be true. I know >you have commented on this before....once to a fellow whose aged feelings >were hurt because she though you took umbrage with her. i told her that you >were just asking questions that needed to be asked. > > > > But if you wish to understand history, then i think you must agree that if >Leonard and george had holdings in Ireland, then they would have ensured >that a member of the family controlled the interest. who knows.I just doubt >that with George exploring Avalon and then MD, even if he wasn't directly >involved in the MD colony, that they would relinquish such large holdings so >close to home to someone outside the family. that follows the basic tenets >of power and influence. So, when these folk who believe john to be son of >leonard, i take it with a grain of common sense salt that it must be >connected somehow...even with no documentation that proves it. > > > > when we examine how life was prior to our modern world, children were the >means to access of power and influence, holding what you had, even on a >small farm. men took other wives in order to have chidlren, especially male >issue in order to farm the smallest of farms. I doubt Leonard would marry >twice and not have issue, even if unable to have children himself. most men >would have figured out how to come up with a child who would inherit >regardless of emotional feelings(a twentieth century mystique?). > > > > I have no ties to MD or the calverts personally(well, that is only >partially true. i knew one of the docents at riversdale...high school >sweetheart that i lost twice in my life.... I just was an history > > student for BA and amateur afterwards. when mom quit researching i took it >over and found it to at least keep my troubled brain at bay. What I do >believe is the following: Once in America with such a vast land at the edges >of civilization, families allied and associated and made a > > common migration. they end up time after time in the next over the >mountain place to settle. they intermarry over and over. different families >associate and get on board. I believe this was true the england at the time >as well. it wasn't as highly cultured as we would > > imagine. > > > > my jesuit fathers instructed me in this social history, what, 35 years > > ago. I took every course i could, read every book, even russian, german >and french history besides the obvious. a common pattern emerges. Where you >hold territory, you put a relative to rule it or you lose it. Leonard would > > have had a son in Ireland. I have no doubt about that. What happened in >the intervening time is at issue, but that is documentaiton and reocrds >which are sorely lacking for the era. > > > > I hope you take this with no apprehension. it only makes sense to me.after >all, i have had to deal with the most recent discovery on the >maternal(calvert) side, which indicates, oh, heavens, shall i say it? > > Lawson Laughlin Spurlock = TN hawkins co. MELUNGEON. Sheesh. > > > > regards to you. > > david > > > > > > > > --- Joanne Yundt Calvert <ladybaltimore@comcast.net> wrote: > > > > David, > > > > I appreciate you taking time with this. Being the George line, Mary is a > > side interest. it's because one of our friends always claimed that he was > > eligible for The Society of the Ark andThe Dave (my husband being a past > > governor)and finally showed us his lineage papers that his mother had >done. > > He comes from the Mary Calvert-Isaac Chapline marriage, so is not eligible > > for The Ark and The Dove, but probably for FFV as they arrived in Virginia > > in the very early 1600's. > > > > Still, I am having a hard time with accepting George had any siblings. > > > > Joanne Calvert > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: <daipdq@juno.com> > > To: <CALVERT-L@rootsweb.com> > > Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2003 9:15 PM > > Subject: [CALVERT] Re: Mary Calvert, sister of George and daughter of > > Leonard > > > > > > > This is a Message Board Post that is gatewayed to this mailing list. > > > > > > Surnames: calvert chapline > > > Classification: Query > > > > > > Message Board URL: > > > > > > http://boards.ancestry.com/mbexec/msg/an/WQH.2ACEB/996.4 > > > > > > Message Board Post: > > > > > > Joanne > > > > > > I somehow goofed my previous reply and am posting it again. > > > I spent some time looking at UK parish and probate records and came up > > with nothing. however, there are many references to this Mary, including >so. > > md online. no documentation. however, i found many references to an isaac > > chapline who married a mary calvert b 1586(right time frame) and he >migrated > > to charles city area and founded chaplin(e)s > > > choice. I think these references to isaac and mary pertinent and we >ought > > be able to find some english documentation of this marriage and perhaps >even > > more related to mary herself. > > > > > > At least if you have references to such a marriage, he being born near > > where Kiplin hall was erected and she at Bolton Castle there must be more > > evidence somewhere in books > > > or english documentation that i was not able to find at my > > > first perusal. I will continue to keep this in mind. > > > > > > thanks again for your kindly assistance, > > > David bell > > > sorry for the two earlier msg reply snafu's.....dai > > > > > > > > > ==== CALVERT Mailing List ==== > > > Any list problems or questions can be sent to the listowner, Christi > > Calvert Brogan at calvert-admin@rootsweb.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ==== CALVERT Mailing List ==== > > Please do not send spam warnings, chain letters, attachments and/or html >or rich text formatted email to the list. If in questions, please address >the listowner at calvert-admin@rootsweb.com > > > > > > > > ==== CALVERT Mailing List ==== > > All messages posted to this mailing list are the property of their >writers. Please obtain permission from all parties before forwarding or >publishing any message from this list. > > > > > > > > > >==== CALVERT Mailing List ==== >Please visit the surname mailing list homepage at: >http://jadis.darktech.org/genealogy/calvert for information on this list, >it's member's pages, queries and other helpful genealogy pages.

Okay David, your history is better than mine. When did the Calverts gain land in Wales. It was not until George, 1st Lord Baltimore that they held land in Ireland when he was awarded the title Baron of Baltimore in 1625 and therefore, referred to as Lord Baltimore. Correction: According to the below listed article, he received lands in 1621 when he was made Chief Secretary of Ireland, the lands belonging to the O'Farrells, renouncing his estate in Longford, appointments and privileges when he becasme a Catholic in 1624. We have another problem here in that his lands were in County Longford, some 20000 acres. Most history books refer to the property as acreage in County Longford. On a flight to Ireland, I asked a young woman from County Longford if she knew where Baltimore was--the answer was Baltimore, the port town on the southern coast of Ireland. I did find an article at The Maryland Historical Society: Ardagh & Clonmacnoise Antiquarian Society Journal, 1942, vol II, No. 8, pp. 88-94 "Baltimore" by Very Rev. M. Canon J. Masterson who proposes the the actual lands given to Lord Baltimore were " Coming to the grant made to Calvert in the barony of Longford, we find the following:--Drumlish, Barragy, Derawley, Moneyachill(Ohill?), Shanabegg, Corlea, Janabegg (Eanbegs?), Garveoghill (Gar-rohill), and a number of townlands now obsolete. Besides these 2324 acres of arable land he was granted 1400 acres of bog and wood. A large portion of the said bog lies on both sides of the road from Currygranny to Cloonageehir. In this latter townland I found Baltimore; or rather Canon Gray found it for me. His parish, Bornacoola, includes several townlands in Co. Longford, and he informs me that part of Cloonageehir which lies along the east bank of the Rinn river is still called Baltimore. Thus Bornacoola has the double honor of supplying Lord Calvert, the noble Catholic peer, with his title, and of lending a name to the Primatial See of the greatest Republic in the world. I freely admit that there is an element of conjecture in my "find" and my conclusion. I found in Longford, Ballymores and Barraghmores, at first, but nowhere Baltimore. I looked for it is in Cashel. Then, in a fortunate moment, I told Canon Gray that, beyond all doubt, Lord Baltimore, founder of the great city and of Maryland State had his title from Longford, and what he told me was not quite a revelation but a striking discovery of what I had sought for, and about which I am quite content. Before I leave this subject of my search for "Baltimore in Longford," may I observe that George Calvert could hardly select an artistic title from any other part of his property? The two chief centres of his property could not allure him. Lord Ulfeete, or Lord Drumlish sound barbaric in comparison with Lord Baltimore. May I stress again that George Calvert was created a peer and chose his title while still in Longford; and that having found casually but fortunately one "Baltimore in Long! ford" we are not likely to find another." Later in the article, with reference to the awarding of the title, George accepted the title, but not the tainted lands. My husband and I had hoped to visit Baltimore, County Longford on a trip to Ireland and were sadly disappointed not to be able to do so. Have you ever done any research on the lands and title in Ireland? Joanne Calvert

helen, you are a long way off for do william if the lydia to whom you refer married archibald bigsbee. Nor do i think that you necessarily have a claim to lineage of the "proven" calvert line. Lydia is the supposed do of george calvert who married ann crupper and was b c 1750. Btw, there is not a lot of documentation on this either. Joanne was writing about the supposed sister of George, of leonard calvert who was the the 2nd of known aristocracy in documentation for the calverts via his father, John. mostly what is known, is that by the time leonard came along, there was enough intermarriage with royalty that if one presumes they came late to crown recognition, it was in the 1300 - 1500 era. certainly by the time of lenard(leonard), they had gained favor extraordinairy, with the crown. they held land in wales, Ireland and of course, in england. coming forward from 3 different lines of descent of royal blood, it is presumed that by marrying into the various royal lineages, a family alliance was formed which lasted until frederick essentially ended the reign of the calverts on american soii. your lydia was not related directly to any leonard. that she married and had issue is true and perhaps you might wish to delineate your query as to william. the ark and dove were the two ships which were sent by Cecilius, my supposed ancestor, to colonize MD. Joanne could very much fill you in on this....she is known to be directly descended from lord baltimore and has been involved in gen. research in the calvert line for eons. i am not....just a beginner who has tried to sort through the various lineages which are not official according to experts. in fact, the resarcher upon whom my two references to family are known to have made mistakes, or had a personal interest. my point? do I have one? joanne and others can answer for the ark and dov. me? i am just looking everywhere i can find to look. if indeed you are related to archie and lydia, then you are quite a bit removed from leonard. not to say tat the tie does not exist.s...david --- "Helen" <hgdonald@knology.net> wrote: I am a descendant of Lydia Calvert, daughter of William Calvert, whom I understand was the son of Leonard Calvert. Lydia married Archibald Bigbee, son of Geoge Bigbee and Mary Calvert. Who was this Mary Calvert, and what is the Society of the Ark and the Dove? Helen ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Edwin Bell" <daipdq@juno.com> To: <CALVERT-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2003 10:51 PM Subject: Re: [CALVERT] Re: Mary Calvert, sister of George and daughter of Leonard > > joanne, > > i am not real formal about all of this calvert stuff. my mother was a > calvert. there was a calvert role in our family that existed up until it was passed to one of arthurs(my grandfather) brothers. boy. would i like to have > what was written--recorded from records, bibles etc. it has disappeared in the last 70 years. Mom used to steal into arthurs trunk to read it. > > i do not know if i will ever figure this out. > > IF mary existed, and I personally believe she did, then there must be documentation somewhere that demonstrates it. even if it is not known. > > This is the same way > re: the family that is out of Ireland. I personally believe that one > of leonards issue went to ireland to manage the two calvert holdings there. it only makes sense. that it is not documented may be true. I know you have commented on this before....once to a fellow whose aged feelings were hurt because she though you took umbrage with her. i told her that you were just asking questions that needed to be asked. > > But if you wish to understand history, then i think you must agree that if Leonard and george had holdings in Ireland, then they would have ensured that a member of the family controlled the interest. who knows.I just doubt that with George exploring Avalon and then MD, even if he wasn't directly involved in the MD colony, that they would relinquish such large holdings so close to home to someone outside the family. that follows the basic tenets of power and influence. So, when these folk who believe john to be son of leonard, i take it with a grain of common sense salt that it must be connected somehow...even with no documentation that proves it. > > when we examine how life was prior to our modern world, children were the means to access of power and influence, holding what you had, even on a small farm. men took other wives in order to have chidlren, especially male issue in order to farm the smallest of farms. I doubt Leonard would marry twice and not have issue, even if unable to have children himself. most men would have figured out how to come up with a child who would inherit regardless of emotional feelings(a twentieth century mystique?). > > I have no ties to MD or the calverts personally(well, that is only partially true. i knew one of the docents at riversdale...high school sweetheart that i lost twice in my life.... I just was an history > student for BA and amateur afterwards. when mom quit researching i took it over and found it to at least keep my troubled brain at bay. What I do believe is the following: Once in America with such a vast land at the edges of civilization, families allied and associated and made a > common migration. they end up time after time in the next over the mountain place to settle. they intermarry over and over. different families associate and get on board. I believe this was true the england at the time as well. it wasn't as highly cultured as we would > imagine. > > my jesuit fathers instructed me in this social history, what, 35 years > ago. I took every course i could, read every book, even russian, german and french history besides the obvious. a common pattern emerges. Where you hold territory, you put a relative to rule it or you lose it. Leonard would > have had a son in Ireland. I have no doubt about that. What happened in the intervening time is at issue, but that is documentaiton and reocrds which are sorely lacking for the era. > > I hope you take this with no apprehension. it only makes sense to me.after all, i have had to deal with the most recent discovery on the maternal(calvert) side, which indicates, oh, heavens, shall i say it? > Lawson Laughlin Spurlock = TN hawkins co. MELUNGEON. Sheesh. > > regards to you. > david > > > > --- Joanne Yundt Calvert <ladybaltimore@comcast.net> wrote: > > David, > > I appreciate you taking time with this. Being the George line, Mary is a > side interest. it's because one of our friends always claimed that he was > eligible for The Society of the Ark andThe Dave (my husband being a past > governor)and finally showed us his lineage papers that his mother had done. > He comes from the Mary Calvert-Isaac Chapline marriage, so is not eligible > for The Ark and The Dove, but probably for FFV as they arrived in Virginia > in the very early 1600's. > > Still, I am having a hard time with accepting George had any siblings. > > Joanne Calvert > ----- Original Message ----- > From: <daipdq@juno.com> > To: <CALVERT-L@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2003 9:15 PM > Subject: [CALVERT] Re: Mary Calvert, sister of George and daughter of > Leonard > > > > This is a Message Board Post that is gatewayed to this mailing list. > > > > Surnames: calvert chapline > > Classification: Query > > > > Message Board URL: > > > > http://boards.ancestry.com/mbexec/msg/an/WQH.2ACEB/996.4 > > > > Message Board Post: > > > > Joanne > > > > I somehow goofed my previous reply and am posting it again. > > I spent some time looking at UK parish and probate records and came up > with nothing. however, there are many references to this Mary, including so. > md online. no documentation. however, i found many references to an isaac > chapline who married a mary calvert b 1586(right time frame) and he migrated > to charles city area and founded chaplin(e)s > > choice. I think these references to isaac and mary pertinent and we ought > be able to find some english documentation of this marriage and perhaps even > more related to mary herself. > > > > At least if you have references to such a marriage, he being born near > where Kiplin hall was erected and she at Bolton Castle there must be more > evidence somewhere in books > > or english documentation that i was not able to find at my > > first perusal. I will continue to keep this in mind. > > > > thanks again for your kindly assistance, > > David bell > > sorry for the two earlier msg reply snafu's.....dai > > > > > > ==== CALVERT Mailing List ==== > > Any list problems or questions can be sent to the listowner, Christi > Calvert Brogan at calvert-admin@rootsweb.com > > > > > > > > ==== CALVERT Mailing List ==== > Please do not send spam warnings, chain letters, attachments and/or html or rich text formatted email to the list. If in questions, please address the listowner at calvert-admin@rootsweb.com > > > > ==== CALVERT Mailing List ==== > All messages posted to this mailing list are the property of their writers. Please obtain permission from all parties before forwarding or publishing any message from this list. > > > ==== CALVERT Mailing List ==== Please visit the surname mailing list homepage at: http://jadis.darktech.org/genealogy/calvert for information on this list, it's member's pages, queries and other helpful genealogy pages.

Helen, Since you are new to the list, it must be overwhelming. The Society of the Ark and The Dove is Maryland's genealogical equivalent to the Mayflower Society. One is eligible by being either descended from the Lords Baltimore or a passenger on the first voyage to Maryland in 1634. As David Bell explained, I was looking for primary sources for Mary Calvert, sister of George, 1st Lord Baltimore. The accepted genealogy is John Calvert, Leonard Calvert and then George, 1st Lord Baltimore. I had not seen any reference to Mary Calvert as sister of the1st Lord Baltimore and was trying to tidy it up. Have you checked O'Gorman's "Descendants of Virginia Calverts"? O'Gorman lists the descendants of William Calvert, son of Leonard who was the brother of Cecil, 2nd Lord Baltimore. Happy Hunting, Joanne Calvert ----- Original Message ----- From: "Helen" <hgdonald@knology.net> To: <CALVERT-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Thursday, May 01, 2003 3:02 AM Subject: [CALVERT] New to List > I am a descendant of Lydia Calvert, daughter of William Calvert, whom I > understand was the > son of Leonard Calvert. Lydia married Archibald Bigbee, son of Geoge Bigbee > and > Mary Calvert. > > Who was this Mary Calvert, and what is the > Society of the Ark and the Dove? > > Helen > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "David Edwin Bell" <daipdq@juno.com> > To: <CALVERT-L@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2003 10:51 PM > Subject: Re: [CALVERT] Re: Mary Calvert, sister of George and daughter of > Leonard > > > > > > joanne, > > > > i am not real formal about all of this calvert stuff. my mother was a > > calvert. there was a calvert role in our family that existed up until it > was passed to one of arthurs(my grandfather) brothers. boy. would i like to > have > > what was written--recorded from records, bibles etc. it has disappeared in > the last 70 years. Mom used to steal into arthurs trunk to read it. > > > > i do not know if i will ever figure this out. > > > > IF mary existed, and I personally believe she did, then there must be > documentation somewhere that demonstrates it. even if it is not known. > > > > This is the same way > > re: the family that is out of Ireland. I personally believe that one > > of leonards issue went to ireland to manage the two calvert holdings > there. it only makes sense. that it is not documented may be true. I know > you have commented on this before....once to a fellow whose aged feelings > were hurt because she though you took umbrage with her. i told her that you > were just asking questions that needed to be asked. > > > > But if you wish to understand history, then i think you must agree that if > Leonard and george had holdings in Ireland, then they would have ensured > that a member of the family controlled the interest. who knows.I just doubt > that with George exploring Avalon and then MD, even if he wasn't directly > involved in the MD colony, that they would relinquish such large holdings so > close to home to someone outside the family. that follows the basic tenets > of power and influence. So, when these folk who believe john to be son of > leonard, i take it with a grain of common sense salt that it must be > connected somehow...even with no documentation that proves it. > > > > when we examine how life was prior to our modern world, children were the > means to access of power and influence, holding what you had, even on a > small farm. men took other wives in order to have chidlren, especially male > issue in order to farm the smallest of farms. I doubt Leonard would marry > twice and not have issue, even if unable to have children himself. most men > would have figured out how to come up with a child who would inherit > regardless of emotional feelings(a twentieth century mystique?). > > > > I have no ties to MD or the calverts personally(well, that is only > partially true. i knew one of the docents at riversdale...high school > sweetheart that i lost twice in my life.... I just was an history > > student for BA and amateur afterwards. when mom quit researching i took it > over and found it to at least keep my troubled brain at bay. What I do > believe is the following: Once in America with such a vast land at the edges > of civilization, families allied and associated and made a > > common migration. they end up time after time in the next over the > mountain place to settle. they intermarry over and over. different families > associate and get on board. I believe this was true the england at the time > as well. it wasn't as highly cultured as we would > > imagine. > > > > my jesuit fathers instructed me in this social history, what, 35 years > > ago. I took every course i could, read every book, even russian, german > and french history besides the obvious. a common pattern emerges. Where you > hold territory, you put a relative to rule it or you lose it. Leonard would > > have had a son in Ireland. I have no doubt about that. What happened in > the intervening time is at issue, but that is documentaiton and reocrds > which are sorely lacking for the era. > > > > I hope you take this with no apprehension. it only makes sense to me.after > all, i have had to deal with the most recent discovery on the > maternal(calvert) side, which indicates, oh, heavens, shall i say it? > > Lawson Laughlin Spurlock = TN hawkins co. MELUNGEON. Sheesh. > > > > regards to you. > > david > > > > > > > > --- Joanne Yundt Calvert <ladybaltimore@comcast.net> wrote: > > > > David, > > > > I appreciate you taking time with this. Being the George line, Mary is a > > side interest. it's because one of our friends always claimed that he was > > eligible for The Society of the Ark andThe Dave (my husband being a past > > governor)and finally showed us his lineage papers that his mother had > done. > > He comes from the Mary Calvert-Isaac Chapline marriage, so is not eligible > > for The Ark and The Dove, but probably for FFV as they arrived in Virginia > > in the very early 1600's. > > > > Still, I am having a hard time with accepting George had any siblings. > > > > Joanne Calvert > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: <daipdq@juno.com> > > To: <CALVERT-L@rootsweb.com> > > Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2003 9:15 PM > > Subject: [CALVERT] Re: Mary Calvert, sister of George and daughter of > > Leonard > > > > > > > This is a Message Board Post that is gatewayed to this mailing list. > > > > > > Surnames: calvert chapline > > > Classification: Query > > > > > > Message Board URL: > > > > > > http://boards.ancestry.com/mbexec/msg/an/WQH.2ACEB/996.4 > > > > > > Message Board Post: > > > > > > Joanne > > > > > > I somehow goofed my previous reply and am posting it again. > > > I spent some time looking at UK parish and probate records and came up > > with nothing. however, there are many references to this Mary, including > so. > > md online. no documentation. however, i found many references to an isaac > > chapline who married a mary calvert b 1586(right time frame) and he > migrated > > to charles city area and founded chaplin(e)s > > > choice. I think these references to isaac and mary pertinent and we > ought > > be able to find some english documentation of this marriage and perhaps > even > > more related to mary herself. > > > > > > At least if you have references to such a marriage, he being born near > > where Kiplin hall was erected and she at Bolton Castle there must be more > > evidence somewhere in books > > > or english documentation that i was not able to find at my > > > first perusal. I will continue to keep this in mind. > > > > > > thanks again for your kindly assistance, > > > David bell > > > sorry for the two earlier msg reply snafu's.....dai > > > > > > > > > ==== CALVERT Mailing List ==== > > > Any list problems or questions can be sent to the listowner, Christi > > Calvert Brogan at calvert-admin@rootsweb.com > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ==== CALVERT Mailing List ==== > > Please do not send spam warnings, chain letters, attachments and/or html > or rich text formatted email to the list. If in questions, please address > the listowner at calvert-admin@rootsweb.com > > > > > > > > ==== CALVERT Mailing List ==== > > All messages posted to this mailing list are the property of their > writers. Please obtain permission from all parties before forwarding or > publishing any message from this list. > > > > > > > > > > ==== CALVERT Mailing List ==== > Please visit the surname mailing list homepage at: http://jadis.darktech.org/genealogy/calvert for information on this list, it's member's pages, queries and other helpful genealogy pages. >

I am a descendant of Lydia Calvert, daughter of William Calvert, whom I understand was the son of Leonard Calvert. Lydia married Archibald Bigbee, son of Geoge Bigbee and Mary Calvert. Who was this Mary Calvert, and what is the Society of the Ark and the Dove? Helen ----- Original Message ----- From: "David Edwin Bell" <daipdq@juno.com> To: <CALVERT-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2003 10:51 PM Subject: Re: [CALVERT] Re: Mary Calvert, sister of George and daughter of Leonard > > joanne, > > i am not real formal about all of this calvert stuff. my mother was a > calvert. there was a calvert role in our family that existed up until it was passed to one of arthurs(my grandfather) brothers. boy. would i like to have > what was written--recorded from records, bibles etc. it has disappeared in the last 70 years. Mom used to steal into arthurs trunk to read it. > > i do not know if i will ever figure this out. > > IF mary existed, and I personally believe she did, then there must be documentation somewhere that demonstrates it. even if it is not known. > > This is the same way > re: the family that is out of Ireland. I personally believe that one > of leonards issue went to ireland to manage the two calvert holdings there. it only makes sense. that it is not documented may be true. I know you have commented on this before....once to a fellow whose aged feelings were hurt because she though you took umbrage with her. i told her that you were just asking questions that needed to be asked. > > But if you wish to understand history, then i think you must agree that if Leonard and george had holdings in Ireland, then they would have ensured that a member of the family controlled the interest. who knows.I just doubt that with George exploring Avalon and then MD, even if he wasn't directly involved in the MD colony, that they would relinquish such large holdings so close to home to someone outside the family. that follows the basic tenets of power and influence. So, when these folk who believe john to be son of leonard, i take it with a grain of common sense salt that it must be connected somehow...even with no documentation that proves it. > > when we examine how life was prior to our modern world, children were the means to access of power and influence, holding what you had, even on a small farm. men took other wives in order to have chidlren, especially male issue in order to farm the smallest of farms. I doubt Leonard would marry twice and not have issue, even if unable to have children himself. most men would have figured out how to come up with a child who would inherit regardless of emotional feelings(a twentieth century mystique?). > > I have no ties to MD or the calverts personally(well, that is only partially true. i knew one of the docents at riversdale...high school sweetheart that i lost twice in my life.... I just was an history > student for BA and amateur afterwards. when mom quit researching i took it over and found it to at least keep my troubled brain at bay. What I do believe is the following: Once in America with such a vast land at the edges of civilization, families allied and associated and made a > common migration. they end up time after time in the next over the mountain place to settle. they intermarry over and over. different families associate and get on board. I believe this was true the england at the time as well. it wasn't as highly cultured as we would > imagine. > > my jesuit fathers instructed me in this social history, what, 35 years > ago. I took every course i could, read every book, even russian, german and french history besides the obvious. a common pattern emerges. Where you hold territory, you put a relative to rule it or you lose it. Leonard would > have had a son in Ireland. I have no doubt about that. What happened in the intervening time is at issue, but that is documentaiton and reocrds which are sorely lacking for the era. > > I hope you take this with no apprehension. it only makes sense to me.after all, i have had to deal with the most recent discovery on the maternal(calvert) side, which indicates, oh, heavens, shall i say it? > Lawson Laughlin Spurlock = TN hawkins co. MELUNGEON. Sheesh. > > regards to you. > david > > > > --- Joanne Yundt Calvert <ladybaltimore@comcast.net> wrote: > > David, > > I appreciate you taking time with this. Being the George line, Mary is a > side interest. it's because one of our friends always claimed that he was > eligible for The Society of the Ark andThe Dave (my husband being a past > governor)and finally showed us his lineage papers that his mother had done. > He comes from the Mary Calvert-Isaac Chapline marriage, so is not eligible > for The Ark and The Dove, but probably for FFV as they arrived in Virginia > in the very early 1600's. > > Still, I am having a hard time with accepting George had any siblings. > > Joanne Calvert > ----- Original Message ----- > From: <daipdq@juno.com> > To: <CALVERT-L@rootsweb.com> > Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2003 9:15 PM > Subject: [CALVERT] Re: Mary Calvert, sister of George and daughter of > Leonard > > > > This is a Message Board Post that is gatewayed to this mailing list. > > > > Surnames: calvert chapline > > Classification: Query > > > > Message Board URL: > > > > http://boards.ancestry.com/mbexec/msg/an/WQH.2ACEB/996.4 > > > > Message Board Post: > > > > Joanne > > > > I somehow goofed my previous reply and am posting it again. > > I spent some time looking at UK parish and probate records and came up > with nothing. however, there are many references to this Mary, including so. > md online. no documentation. however, i found many references to an isaac > chapline who married a mary calvert b 1586(right time frame) and he migrated > to charles city area and founded chaplin(e)s > > choice. I think these references to isaac and mary pertinent and we ought > be able to find some english documentation of this marriage and perhaps even > more related to mary herself. > > > > At least if you have references to such a marriage, he being born near > where Kiplin hall was erected and she at Bolton Castle there must be more > evidence somewhere in books > > or english documentation that i was not able to find at my > > first perusal. I will continue to keep this in mind. > > > > thanks again for your kindly assistance, > > David bell > > sorry for the two earlier msg reply snafu's.....dai > > > > > > ==== CALVERT Mailing List ==== > > Any list problems or questions can be sent to the listowner, Christi > Calvert Brogan at calvert-admin@rootsweb.com > > > > > > > > ==== CALVERT Mailing List ==== > Please do not send spam warnings, chain letters, attachments and/or html or rich text formatted email to the list. If in questions, please address the listowner at calvert-admin@rootsweb.com > > > > ==== CALVERT Mailing List ==== > All messages posted to this mailing list are the property of their writers. Please obtain permission from all parties before forwarding or publishing any message from this list. > > >

joanne, i am not real formal about all of this calvert stuff. my mother was a calvert. there was a calvert role in our family that existed up until it was passed to one of arthurs(my grandfather) brothers. boy. would i like to have what was written--recorded from records, bibles etc. it has disappeared in the last 70 years. Mom used to steal into arthurs trunk to read it. i do not know if i will ever figure this out. IF mary existed, and I personally believe she did, then there must be documentation somewhere that demonstrates it. even if it is not known. This is the same way re: the family that is out of Ireland. I personally believe that one of leonards issue went to ireland to manage the two calvert holdings there. it only makes sense. that it is not documented may be true. I know you have commented on this before....once to a fellow whose aged feelings were hurt because she though you took umbrage with her. i told her that you were just asking questions that needed to be asked. But if you wish to understand history, then i think you must agree that if Leonard and george had holdings in Ireland, then they would have ensured that a member of the family controlled the interest. who knows.I just doubt that with George exploring Avalon and then MD, even if he wasn't directly involved in the MD colony, that they would relinquish such large holdings so close to home to someone outside the family. that follows the basic tenets of power and influence. So, when these folk who believe john to be son of leonard, i take it with a grain of common sense salt that it must be connected somehow...even with no documentation that proves it. when we examine how life was prior to our modern world, children were the means to access of power and influence, holding what you had, even on a small farm. men took other wives in order to have chidlren, especially male issue in order to farm the smallest of farms. I doubt Leonard would marry twice and not have issue, even if unable to have children himself. most men would have figured out how to come up with a child who would inherit regardless of emotional feelings(a twentieth century mystique?). I have no ties to MD or the calverts personally(well, that is only partially true. i knew one of the docents at riversdale...high school sweetheart that i lost twice in my life.... I just was an history student for BA and amateur afterwards. when mom quit researching i took it over and found it to at least keep my troubled brain at bay. What I do believe is the following: Once in America with such a vast land at the edges of civilization, families allied and associated and made a common migration. they end up time after time in the next over the mountain place to settle. they intermarry over and over. different families associate and get on board. I believe this was true the england at the time as well. it wasn't as highly cultured as we would imagine. my jesuit fathers instructed me in this social history, what, 35 years ago. I took every course i could, read every book, even russian, german and french history besides the obvious. a common pattern emerges. Where you hold territory, you put a relative to rule it or you lose it. Leonard would have had a son in Ireland. I have no doubt about that. What happened in the intervening time is at issue, but that is documentaiton and reocrds which are sorely lacking for the era. I hope you take this with no apprehension. it only makes sense to me.after all, i have had to deal with the most recent discovery on the maternal(calvert) side, which indicates, oh, heavens, shall i say it? Lawson Laughlin Spurlock = TN hawkins co. MELUNGEON. Sheesh. regards to you. david --- Joanne Yundt Calvert <ladybaltimore@comcast.net> wrote: David, I appreciate you taking time with this. Being the George line, Mary is a side interest. it's because one of our friends always claimed that he was eligible for The Society of the Ark andThe Dave (my husband being a past governor)and finally showed us his lineage papers that his mother had done. He comes from the Mary Calvert-Isaac Chapline marriage, so is not eligible for The Ark and The Dove, but probably for FFV as they arrived in Virginia in the very early 1600's. Still, I am having a hard time with accepting George had any siblings. Joanne Calvert ----- Original Message ----- From: <daipdq@juno.com> To: <CALVERT-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2003 9:15 PM Subject: [CALVERT] Re: Mary Calvert, sister of George and daughter of Leonard > This is a Message Board Post that is gatewayed to this mailing list. > > Surnames: calvert chapline > Classification: Query > > Message Board URL: > > http://boards.ancestry.com/mbexec/msg/an/WQH.2ACEB/996.4 > > Message Board Post: > > Joanne > > I somehow goofed my previous reply and am posting it again. > I spent some time looking at UK parish and probate records and came up with nothing. however, there are many references to this Mary, including so. md online. no documentation. however, i found many references to an isaac chapline who married a mary calvert b 1586(right time frame) and he migrated to charles city area and founded chaplin(e)s > choice. I think these references to isaac and mary pertinent and we ought be able to find some english documentation of this marriage and perhaps even more related to mary herself. > > At least if you have references to such a marriage, he being born near where Kiplin hall was erected and she at Bolton Castle there must be more evidence somewhere in books > or english documentation that i was not able to find at my > first perusal. I will continue to keep this in mind. > > thanks again for your kindly assistance, > David bell > sorry for the two earlier msg reply snafu's.....dai > > > ==== CALVERT Mailing List ==== > Any list problems or questions can be sent to the listowner, Christi Calvert Brogan at calvert-admin@rootsweb.com > > ==== CALVERT Mailing List ==== Please do not send spam warnings, chain letters, attachments and/or html or rich text formatted email to the list. If in questions, please address the listowner at calvert-admin@rootsweb.com

well joanne i knew you would be way ahead of me. i sent jerry an email to ask him what doc he had and had not heard back yet. like usual, you are already ahead of the search. I found via several references various books and notes on isaac chapline and wife mary but nothing that documented the marriage. there is ample indication of a commission in the RN, he born near where Kiplin hall was erected and she at Bolton castle by rumor. If so, then she is the daughter of leonard. Isaac did migrate to the south bank but later to the md side from what I read but keep in mind i do not have these books, only references to them. when I searched briefly UK records I do not find either. There still, must be something there to give some researcher the idea that she was do leonard an keep in mind, this is all online. I found a couple of references at md online that indicate others thought Leonard had 11 or 12 children but no references to the source document or who was whose children. it must be somewhere though, sheesh....someone was writing about it, maybe foster or someone referring to his notes. you had helped me before so when i saw your query i thought to poke around a bit. i am still stuck at my thomas b 1769 but have straightend out a lot of questions in his descendents, including wife, issue and father, supposedly isaac but not of the armagh line. other researchers think this thomas is of that line so when one of them goes to greene co. pa this spring we will find out more(hopefully). I am pretty sure thomas Clare went by Colvert in VA in the 1830/40 census and his wife as hoh elizabeth as a calvert in 1850 in county that became wetzel after he apprently died. So i am making headway. I am afraid that my ancestry deals with the alias harrison line(odd that thomas of 1769 was commissioned by WH harrison and the previous researchers that mom enlisted missed this altogether). Cecilius 1702 was where one posited the ancestry and Nicklin himself felt that that line ended there. He also worried that George of Deep Hole Farm was also in the Alias line but Ellas apparently felt otherwise. My isaac supposedly married a frances bullitt, which according to family radition would fit to VA and back to MD if she is the Frances(fanny) of Cuthbert along with the Ewing and Lemasters line. those who follow it through isaac 1735 have got to be mistaken due to the gaps in years. If i have 3 family lines that end up in (W)VA Calvert Lemasters and Ewings who all have MD as origin, then i think i am on the right track. have been looking at Thomas Colvert 1820 Census, Caroline Co VA.This may be where i need to make a very hard canvas..... Joanne, thanks again for previous assistance, david --- Joanne Yundt Calvert <ladybaltimore@comcast.net> wrote: Thanks, David. Do you have any references that indicate the 11 siblings of George--he had 11 children by 2 wives! Jerry Bruhn wrote that all his were secondary references and published much earlier than the one I have, listing Mary as George's sister. James Foster, Director of the Maryland Historical Society, attempted to write a definitive work on George Calvert, but died before its completion. Posthumously, the Maryland Historical Society published the first section as George Calvert: The Early Years. I agree with you as I lack Mary or any otther sibling, save one brother Christopher whose name appears in a Yorkshire High Commission report and is not mentioned in any additional information found on the early years of George Calvert. I also agree that a Mary Calvert married Isaac Chaplain and emigrated to Virginia. I believe, however, that Chaplain's Choice was on the south bank of the James River in Virginia, not Maryland. Thanks for the help and encouragement. Joanne Calvert ----- Original Message ----- From: <daipdq@juno.com> To: <CALVERT-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2003 8:32 PM Subject: [CALVERT] Re: Mary Calvert, sister of George and daughter of Leonard > This is a Message Board Post that is gatewayed to this mailing list. > > Surnames: calvert > Classification: Query > > Message Board URL: > > http://boards.ancestry.com/mbexec/msg/an/WQH.2ACEB/996.2 > > Message Board Post: > > Joanne, > > I lost my first post to this but i want to point out that i have found no record of Mary in England via various search tools such as here for probate and court records. However: I find > references to Isaac Chapl(a)ine) of Chaplin(s) choice MD and wife m b 1586. this is the right time for a sister of George. Supposedly this Mary was an earlier settler with a RN officer > who died at sea. She and then her son inherited Chaplin's Choice after her husbands death. Whether this is your Mary or not, there are many who believe that George had 11 siblings or there were 11 children altogether, including info > published at So Md Online. I am perusing history books, etc > but if indeed Isaac(k) Chapl(a)in(e) was her husband, that is a good place to start. oddly enough, the books are US origin not the UK. There must be more. > > I kept an eye out since you have helped me in the past. I will poke around historical reference books and see what I find. > > regards, > David Bell

David, I appreciate you taking time with this. Being the George line, Mary is a side interest. it's because one of our friends always claimed that he was eligible for The Society of the Ark andThe Dave (my husband being a past governor)and finally showed us his lineage papers that his mother had done. He comes from the Mary Calvert-Isaac Chapline marriage, so is not eligible for The Ark and The Dove, but probably for FFV as they arrived in Virginia in the very early 1600's. Still, I am having a hard time with accepting George had any siblings. Joanne Calvert ----- Original Message ----- From: <daipdq@juno.com> To: <CALVERT-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2003 9:15 PM Subject: [CALVERT] Re: Mary Calvert, sister of George and daughter of Leonard > This is a Message Board Post that is gatewayed to this mailing list. > > Surnames: calvert chapline > Classification: Query > > Message Board URL: > > http://boards.ancestry.com/mbexec/msg/an/WQH.2ACEB/996.4 > > Message Board Post: > > Joanne > > I somehow goofed my previous reply and am posting it again. > I spent some time looking at UK parish and probate records and came up with nothing. however, there are many references to this Mary, including so. md online. no documentation. however, i found many references to an isaac chapline who married a mary calvert b 1586(right time frame) and he migrated to charles city area and founded chaplin(e)s > choice. I think these references to isaac and mary pertinent and we ought be able to find some english documentation of this marriage and perhaps even more related to mary herself. > > At least if you have references to such a marriage, he being born near where Kiplin hall was erected and she at Bolton Castle there must be more evidence somewhere in books > or english documentation that i was not able to find at my > first perusal. I will continue to keep this in mind. > > thanks again for your kindly assistance, > David bell > sorry for the two earlier msg reply snafu's.....dai > > > ==== CALVERT Mailing List ==== > Any list problems or questions can be sent to the listowner, Christi Calvert Brogan at calvert-admin@rootsweb.com > >

Thanks, David. Do you have any references that indicate the 11 siblings of George--he had 11 children by 2 wives! Jerry Bruhn wrote that all his were secondary references and published much earlier than the one I have, listing Mary as George's sister. James Foster, Director of the Maryland Historical Society, attempted to write a definitive work on George Calvert, but died before its completion. Posthumously, the Maryland Historical Society published the first section as George Calvert: The Early Years. I agree with you as I lack Mary or any otther sibling, save one brother Christopher whose name appears in a Yorkshire High Commission report and is not mentioned in any additional information found on the early years of George Calvert. I also agree that a Mary Calvert married Isaac Chaplain and emigrated to Virginia. I believe, however, that Chaplain's Choice was on the south bank of the James River in Virginia, not Maryland. Thanks for the help and encouragement. Joanne Calvert ----- Original Message ----- From: <daipdq@juno.com> To: <CALVERT-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Wednesday, April 30, 2003 8:32 PM Subject: [CALVERT] Re: Mary Calvert, sister of George and daughter of Leonard > This is a Message Board Post that is gatewayed to this mailing list. > > Surnames: calvert > Classification: Query > > Message Board URL: > > http://boards.ancestry.com/mbexec/msg/an/WQH.2ACEB/996.2 > > Message Board Post: > > Joanne, > > I lost my first post to this but i want to point out that i have found no record of Mary in England via various search tools such as here for probate and court records. However: I find > references to Isaac Chapl(a)ine) of Chaplin(s) choice MD and wife m b 1586. this is the right time for a sister of George. Supposedly this Mary was an earlier settler with a RN officer > who died at sea. She and then her son inherited Chaplin's Choice after her husbands death. Whether this is your Mary or not, there are many who believe that George had 11 siblings or there were 11 children altogether, including info > published at So Md Online. I am perusing history books, etc > but if indeed Isaac(k) Chapl(a)in(e) was her husband, that is a good place to start. oddly enough, the books are US origin not the UK. There must be more. > > I kept an eye out since you have helped me in the past. I will poke around historical reference books and see what I find. > > regards, > David Bell > > > ==== CALVERT Mailing List ==== > Please visit the surname mailing list homepage at: http://jadis.darktech.org/genealogy/calvert for information on this list, it's member's pages, queries and other helpful genealogy pages. > >

This is a Message Board Post that is gatewayed to this mailing list. Surnames: calvert chapline Classification: Query Message Board URL: http://boards.ancestry.com/mbexec/msg/an/WQH.2ACEB/996.4 Message Board Post: Joanne I somehow goofed my previous reply and am posting it again. I spent some time looking at UK parish and probate records and came up with nothing. however, there are many references to this Mary, including so. md online. no documentation. however, i found many references to an isaac chapline who married a mary calvert b 1586(right time frame) and he migrated to charles city area and founded chaplin(e)s choice. I think these references to isaac and mary pertinent and we ought be able to find some english documentation of this marriage and perhaps even more related to mary herself. At least if you have references to such a marriage, he being born near where Kiplin hall was erected and she at Bolton Castle there must be more evidence somewhere in books or english documentation that i was not able to find at my first perusal. I will continue to keep this in mind. thanks again for your kindly assistance, David bell sorry for the two earlier msg reply snafu's.....dai