Hi Cagle Cousins, For those of you who might be interested in further alternative explanations of the term " Black Dutch", I have been doing a little digging into other areas. The sub-diectory below is from a family website I located on Yahoo search engine. http://www.qni.com/~suni/blackdutch.htm There are many other links from this page, and some have a seemingly reasonable exploration of the term. I leave each to draw their own conclusions. It seems also likely that some of our "missing" ancestral links may be, in fact, hidden by historical rebuffs caused by these quirks of racism in record administration offices. Aparently "mixing" of the races and family records has only reccently became accepted in some areas. As Earl mentioned earlier, I will be unsubscribing shortly. I am facing a major upgrade of all my equipment, Harddrives, Browsers, and E-mail. This will take about two weeks. At that time I will re-subscribe. My regular e-mail will remain operative for the most part. I also have a www e-mail as doyle71@hotmail.com , I check it daily. In reading and evaluating the history of the " Black Dutch", keep in mind that recorded history is usually only the written perceptions of one observer of events. It has been my experience of many long years, that much actual written history is erroneous, due to mis-interpretation, or bias, of the recorder. Best wishes, a very happy holiday season, and a safe journey into the next century to all. Doyle Chambers Jun 32 Homepage: http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~doylech

The December 1994 issue of the NGS Quarterly launched a Black Dutch study project to be headed by GeLee Corley Hendrix, CG. Anyone interested in this may wish to contact Mrs. Hendrix at 3 Acorn Court, Greenville, SC 29609 for the status of this study. To quote their first sentence: "One of the enduring mysteries of American genealogy is the ethnic identification of a group widely and vicariously referred to as the 'Black Dutch'." M.A. Causey

Dear Cousins, Thanks for the many congratulatory messages. Now that I am an old married man again, I will be back on line and researching our roots again. We have been busy moving my "stuff" to Naomi's house which is much nicer than mine and getting mine ready for rental. Naomi's house has an indoor heated swimming pool so, she didn't get any argument from me as to where to live. May I wish each and everyone of you a very merry Christmas and a Happy New Year. God Bless you All, Cuz Lee 10-27-36 (Note to Cathy: The recipe you ask for is forthcoming. Turns out Naomi does have one.) ___________________________________________________________________ Why pay more to get Web access? Try Juno for FREE -- then it's just $9.95/month if you act NOW! Get your free software today: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj.

Dear Friends and Family: I am happy to announce that I have recently remarried to a wonderful woman whose name is Naomi Edwards Linton. For my geneaolgy family, there is a possibility of some relation. Her maternal side is "Free" who hail from Haralson County, Georgia. In fact, her GGrand father, Dennis Free was a Dr who practiced in Buchanan. In my index, I show three Frees as having married Cagles. Who knows? Maybe some of you have more knowledge of the Frees of Harralson County, Georgia, if so, please let me know. My address has changed from 1325 Nail Parkway, Moore, Oklahoma to 3227 Wilshire Terrace, Oklahoma City, Oklahoma 73116-3023. My phone number is now Area Code, 405, phone 843-8812. My email address remains the same: <caglel1@juno.com>: Routine correspondence. <leecagle@earthlink.net>: For anything requiring net connections, i.e., attachments, etc. Yeah, I know, I told a lot of you I would never marry again and it looked like I wouldn't. I was two years before I dated, then I married the first woman I dated but, what the heck when you find a pair of shoes that fit, you don't need to try on all the shoes in the store. Naomi is a great cook and has an interest in recepies, so any of you who have some you would like to share, please direct them to her at <NLynn@aol.com>. I know this will interest you Carolyn. Merry Christmas and Happy New Year. Cuz Lee Cagle ___________________________________________________________________ Why pay more to get Web access? Try Juno for FREE -- then it's just $9.95/month if you act NOW! Get your free software today: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj.

There appear to be about as many theories as questions on the term "Black Dutch" - there is no one definition that is accepted. The most common two seem to be 1) a Germanic descendant of darker complexion or hair (as in Black Irish) and 2) descendants of the Melungeons (another mysterious people, apparently a mixture of black, white and Indian). This latter could not describe the original immigrant, but might apply to some descendants. There was a group a few years ago attempting a study on the Black Dutch. They were inviting anyone and everyone claiming Black Dutch ancestry to take part. Unfortunately, as I am becoming older and more forgetful I cannot remember who/where. If interested, you might find it mentioned on the Internet. M.A. Causey

Cagle Researchers, Try this Great <A HREF="http://obits.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/obit.cgi">Obituary Daily Times Results: Cagle</A> Site. Enter a Keyword such as a City that you knew where your CAGLES were.Such as...... MEMPHIS...............It will list ALL names of MEMPHIS ,and who had a Obituary there....................I just decided to Enter the Cagle Name. HerLine2@aol.com Richard

Well here goes. My friend which is Black Dutch said it depends on what side of the tracks you came from. The poor folks were Black Dutch the rich was German. My husband family were Black Dutch yep!!! they were poor. However very good people. LaMona

Hello all, Doyle Chambers, a member of our list our first year, will be leaving in a couple of days. Everything is ok with Doyle, but he has alot of work to do until after the New Year. Once he gets caught up again, he will re-join us. This is an excerpt from Doyle's letter, where he has yet another theory for the term "Black Dutch". Earl ==================================== Doyle wrote : <snip> As a different point, Re: Black Dutch. I'm sure, like you, there are several backgrounds to this use of the name. However, my great grandmother, Caroline Cagle, was always referred to as " Black Dutch". Her explanation was that her family came from the low countries, and were lowland Germans from the area between Germany and the Netherlands. They were said to speak a different dialect from the Highland Germans.     Wishing you and your wife the best of everything during the holiday season, see you next year.     Best Wishes, Doyle Homepage: http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~doylech

--part1_0.1ea69031.258b47e6_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit --part1_0.1ea69031.258b47e6_boundary Content-Type: message/rfc822 Content-Disposition: inline Return-path: Njbalmer@aol.com From: Njbalmer@aol.com Full-name: Njbalmer Message-ID: <0.c1a3aa59.25897fd3@aol.com> Date: Wed, 15 Dec 1999 18:35:47 EST Subject: Re: Who are the Cagles in the Page Will? To: earl1947@webtv.net MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Mailer: Windows AOL sub 44 Hi I don't know how it all fits but this is Frances "Fanny" Macom Cagle, who was married to John Cagle, 1810-1872, and he was the son of Peter Cagle 1775-1842 NC. On the marriage bond for this couple dated Feb. 5, 1833 Randolph County, NC, the Security pledge is by John Cagle & Jacob Page. Fanny is also listed as buying some of the property of John's at the Estate sales, Book B. 1855-1877 In Cherokee County, GA. . this is not much but maybe enough to help a little in this Georgia Book (I have three of the Ga books) There are some Kings in here I will look and see what it has to say on any of them . Cagle , Page and Kings all all connected to . Nancy Jane Nancy jane Tarzana , Ca April 1945 --part1_0.1ea69031.258b47e6_boundary--

Hi Cousins, Once again, a useful service at Rootsweb for any of you that don't already have it. This URL for the Obituary Times lists 249 Cagle names or connections in this issue, just updated. A lot are older Cagle's and/or former Cagle names. http://obits.rootsweb.com/cgi-bin/obit.cgi The search engine can be used for other surnames as well. I find 1600 plus Chambers I have yet to look at. As always, at Rootsweb, it's free to all. Hope it can be of use to someone else. Best Holiday wishes to all, Doyle Homepage: http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~doylech

Hello list, As Earl said, there are probably several legitimate explanations for the term "Black Dutch". If I may offer mine. A a young child, I shadowed my grandfather day and night. He was always saying he was black dutch or Pennsylvanis dutch. Up until about two years ago I had accepted this and would tell people I was Dutch. Then I learned that in reference to the Pennsylvania Dutch, this was a term that meant simply Pennsylvania German, as dutch in the aforementioned context was the Americanized version of "Deutsch" the German word for Germany. http://www.kerchner.com/padutch.htm gives a good explanation for this. As for black dutch, I have heard it refered to a German from the black forest area of Germany. More recently I downloaded a explanation of the term from either the Fayette or Sullivan Co TN homepage. In short it stated that it was a term that people with mixed blood, primarily Indian/white, used when questioned about their nationality. It was extremely unpopular to be part Indian when term came into being and I suppose those of mixed blood were darker than most and drew unwanted attention. The explanation sounded reasonable but who knows. Gary I just checked the Fayette County Tn page and the links are there for the explanation of black dutch but they are no longer valid. If any one is interested I will find the download and send it to you individualy.

My grandmother, Mattie Susan (Saffell) Mashburn, was the daughter of Stephen Decator Saffell and Ferbie Lee Cagle. Ferbie Lee's parents were John Cagle and Phereby Rogers. I always heard my grandmother tell that her Cagle Ancestors were "Black Dutch". Glad to know what that actually refers to now. Maxine Smith Clovis, CA

Tom Cagle & List, As owner of the Cagle mail list I get issues of Rootsweb Review. In todays edition, there is mention of this site that translates "Old German Language". Tom, you may want to check out this site to see if it will help translate the German will, of Henry Cagle. This is cliped from the newsletter: Earl GERMAN/ENGLISH, ENGLISH/GERMAN TRANSLATIONS FOR GENEALOGISTS. Including old German scripts and handwriting. <http://hometown.aol.com/faithgib/page5.html>

Nancy Jane wrote: =============================== Hi I don't know how it all fits but this is Frances "Fanny" Macom Cagle, who was married to John Cagle, 1810-1872, and he was the son of Peter Cagle 1775-1842 NC. On the marriage bond for this couple dated Feb. 5, 1833 Randolph County, NC, the Security pledge is by John Cagle & Jacob Page. Fanny is also listed as buying some of the property of John's at the Estate sales, Book B. 1855-1877 In Cherokee County, GA. . this is not much but maybe enough to help a little in this Georgia Book (I have three of the Ga books) There are some Kings in here I will look and see what it has to say on any of them . Cagle , Page and Kings all all connected to .                 Nancy Jane Nancy jane Tarzana , Ca April 1945 - --------------------------------------------------------------------- Nancy & List, These folks may be ancestors of someone on the list. Anytime you want to refer to articles from one of John G.Cagle's books, then please do. He has worked very hard for many years researching the Cagle's. Of course I welcome any input from his books. Thank You, Earl

Richard wrote: ================================ Dear Earl,I missed the Address for those looking for Cagles in Louisiana,There is two of them in Here,Have them Check out ALL of The cemetaries.....<A HREF="http://www.rootsweb.com/~lanatchi/Manasco.htm">Natchit oches Parish Cemeteries: Manasco Cemetery</A> There is a LIsting for ALL cemetaries from this Location.                                                   Richard ===================================== Richard, We have a few Louisiana Cagle researchers, on the list. So this way they can see the Cemetery link you sent. With a little luck maybe it will help someone. Thanks for passing the link on & now others can use it. Anyone finding sites that refer to our Cagle's, please pass them on. Earl

Charlie Cagle wrote: ============================ Earl there was something that was very interesting to me in what you had written,that was the mention of the term"Black Dutch" my ggrandfather (Charlie Cagle) was said to be Black Dutch I have never heard of this anywhere before. My ggrandfather was born in Illinois in November 1853 and died in Lawrence County, Alabama in August 1914,he was married to Annie Elizabeth Staggs.         His father was Charles Cagle son of Valentine Cagle Sr. I wonder if there could be any connection. Happy Hunting Charlie Cagle ======================================== Charlie & List, Back several months ago we talked of this "Black Dutch", terminology. There are of course more than one explanation for this. First and foremost, is ones blood line so to speak. If for example Leonhart Kegel, being German & his wife Dutch, then their children could refer to themselves as "Black Dutch". As it said in the Clarksville, Texas newspaper article he wanted to be called "Black Dutch". One would only deny their ancestry, if they had been persecuted in some way. This may have been the case, and some history buff could best answer as to what turmoil was going on in Germany, in the 1700's. Also this name may have gotten attached to them in this way. For my part this is what I tend to think is how the term "Black Dutch" came to be. When our Cagle / Kegel ancestors first settled in the Colonies, they of course knew little if any english. When approached by someone who asked "Where are you from" they answered the best they could. "Deutch Land" is what they may have answered as to where they were from. The translation for this is "Father Land" or "Home Land". This German word, may have sounded to most like "Dutch". So as you see Charlie, there is more than one theory. Earl

June & Earl, Here is a link that is the beginning of several posts about the Golightly family in TN and AL. I saw Parthenia mentioned in one of the posts. There are many posts so there must be a lot of interest in this line. URL http://genforum.familytreemaker.com/golightly/messages/70.html Tom

June & List, On a lark I decided to search the surname Golghtly, and there was one listing: Earl Surname: GOLIGHTLY Given Name: ANNA L Date: 10/12/1893 Age: 56 YRS Sex: F Race: W Book: File Number:47863 Notes: DIED IN COLLIERVILLE, TN; BODY MOVED 3/14/1900

June & List, You also mention that your Cagle's, were from Shelby Co; Tn. This county has some online death records. This one was listed for Shelby Co; Tn. Thought he may have been a connection to yours: Surname: CAGLE Given Name:P J Date:9/5/1878 Age:35 YRS Sex:M Race:W Book:File Number:18977AN Earl

June wrote: ======================== I read the info about Ida Mae Golightly (Cagle) with a great deal of interest since my g,g, Grandmother was Parthenia Dauze Golightly (Cagle) married to Raleigh J. Cagle. She was born in 1824 in Ala., and he was born in 1826 in Tenn. They moved to Shelby Co., Tenn. and finally settled in Calcasieu Parish, La. I haven't been able to trace the Golightly family. Could these two women be related? I'd appreciate any information. June ========================================= June & List, As to Golightly, I haven't done any research on her married name. There are just so many surnames that this is one I haven't researched yet. June, she well could have a connection to yours. The surname I would say is fairly un-common, and she may connect somwhere. Although I don't have the data in front of me, I am thinking I don't even have his first name. What happend was I beleive that I just had information as to her married name. Let me check and see if I have a marriage record for them. Ida Mae Cagle was b. Nov. 19, 1895, so she probally married about 1912 or so. She died at a young age of abt. 47, on Feb. 03,1942. She is buried next to her father & brother in the Oak Grove Cemetery, in Charleston, Mo. Her marriage to this un-known Golightly, may not have been a good one. For I think if it had been, then they would have been buried side by side. Earl