Interestingly enough, I am currently faced with this problem. I will try to explain the best I can. My grandparents bought a double plot in Hamilton, Ontario. My grandfather died in 1973. My grandmother would then be the interment right holder/owner. She remarried, but died very soon after, so we are trying to figure out who now owns the interment rights to this plot. The problem is that the gravestone has both of my grandparents names/birthdates on it, but since my grandmother had remarried, her new husband buried her in his hometown (in a plot that he had for himself and his many wives, way far up in Northern Ontario). Her new husband inherited ALL of her estate. We were in shock, as this was not what we thought was in her will. We knew of a will that included her two sons, AND the new husband's son. Apparently, there was a new will done up on Christmas Eve only 6 weeks before she passed away. (This new will excluded her own 2 sons, and this 'stranger' had inherited ALL of what my grandfather had worked so hard for all of his life.) .... sorry if this is getting confusing...... Anyways, it appears though that he also inherited the rights to the plot in Hamilton that my grandfather is buried in. (It was a double plot and sold as one unit, so cannot be resold.) He likely was never aware that he was the 'proud new owner' of these interment rights.... Grandma's new husband has since passed away, and now it appears that his son has inherited all of my grandparents estate and his own father's estate..... (Lucky guy!!!) AND the plot in Hamilton, that my grandfather is buried in. (The stone still has an empty spot where her death date was to be inscribed. This is why this can of worms was opened up. I decided that since she was gone since the 70's, maybe we could just have her death date put on the stone.... NOT!!!!) There has been no activity or contact from the 'new husband's son' and I am sure he likely doesn't even know that he may have inherited it since they live very far away up North. It has been 31 years since the cemetery has had any contact dealing with this plot/gravestone. I recently looked into this since my own father is getting up there in age. We wanted to be able to use the extra plot for him, but was told by the cemetery that we must have the son of my grandmother's 2nd husband tranfer the interment rights BACK to our family since he is the current owner. (I was shocked to think that a complete stranger is now the owner and we have no rights!!!) Since this was so bizarre, I decided to research it..... (no lawyers involved at present), and this is what I have found: Interment rights will descend to his or her heirs according to the laws of descent…AND Interment rights are usually given special status under the law and it is necessary to specifically provide in a will for the transfer of the interment right. This result was based on the common law that an interment right is considered essentially to be a family heritage, not likely to be inventoried with a decedent's assets or regarded as property to pass by the will. (My grandmother's new will did not specifically include that it be willed to her new husband. Considering this, and in order to protect the family heritage, one would assume/hope that it would remain with our family.....this is how I understand what I have read.) Further, since the residuary (remainder) portion of an estate could go to someone other than the family, (which in this case, it went to her new husband - a stranger to our family), it would defeat the purpose to allow that result. The ownership of the interment right will only pass to the next generation "AS IF THE OWNER HAD DIED INTESTATE (without a will) UNLESS SPECIFICALLY TRANSFERRED BY THE OWNER by will or gift" (and it wasn't transferred to him anywhere on paper.) The basis all of this is specifically to ensure by way of rights, to protect the family heritage and to insure the blood heirs and descendants of the original owner will have the right to use any available spaces. I have been in contact with the Ministry (Cemetery Regulations Dept.) regarding this issue, and the lady I spoke with consulted with the Registrar... Apparently there is nothing in place that would refer to any “Laws of Descent” to preserve the family heritage, so we are basically out of luck.... End result is, "My grandmother's second husband's son, a complete stranger to our family, now owns interment rights to the plot my grandfather is buried in.... and where my grandmother was supposed to be buried, but is buried elsewhere..... We have no rights unless he legally transfers them to our family...." Does anyone have any concrete information, or know of anyone that I could contact about this??? I think it's totally ridiculous that interment rights are owned by a stranger who doesn't even know he owns it, nor would he likely have any reason to want to bury a stranger beside my grandfather..... I would really like to refrain from pursuing this with a lawyer, if at all possible.... Also, pertaining to the 'selling or buying' of plots, this is what I found in some FAQ's.... When I buy a plot, do I own the land? No. What you own is the right to determine who may be buried in your lot. These rights are called "interment rights". The land remains the property, and the responsibility, of the cemetery. Can I sell my plot to someone else? No. Provincial law prohibits the private resale of interment rights. However, should you choose not to use your interment rights, the cemetery will be pleased to buy them back from you, in accordance with provincial law, or you may transfer your interment rights to a third party through the cemetery office. Thanks for your time and to all who may respond..... J*O*D*Y* P.S. Ellen - Might your Genealogical Group's President have any information you could forward to me about this?? Your post below actually prompted me to post my query..... Thanks :-) > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > Subject: SELLING TOMBSTONES > Date: Sun, 7 Nov 2004 16:08:43 -0500 > From: "Ellen Murray" <ellen.murray@sympatico.ca> > To: CA-ONT-CEMETERIES-L@rootsweb.com > > Am passing this on “third party” but the President of our Genealogical Group > recently went through question of ownership re; his Grt. Grandfathers plot. > The lawyer told him that ownership follows the heir to the estate down the > line. I would like to know which cemetery in Simcoe is selling the stones > and do they have to advertise publicly before doing so. > Ellen

Hello JP, You have a very interesting situation here. Perhaps you could send a friendly letter to your grandmother's second husband's son (on a lawyer's letterhead) to confirm that he is the new owner. At the same time, you could ask him if he would like to assume financial responsibility for the perpetual upkeep of the cemetery plot or if he would prefer to transfer the rights to you. You don't have to say that there are or will be actual costs---just ask if he would like to pay them should they arise. My guess is that he would be happy to relieve himself of that responsibility. It's just a thought. Al -----Original Message----- From: JP [mailto:latta-poljanski@sympatico.ca] Sent: 08 November, 2004 11:00 To: CA-ONT-CEMETERIES-L@rootsweb.com Subject: [ON-CEM] Selling cemetery plots - Transfer of interment rights Interestingly enough, I am currently faced with this problem. I will try to explain the best I can. My grandparents bought a double plot in Hamilton, Ontario. My grandfather died in 1973. My grandmother would then be the interment right holder/owner. She remarried, but died very soon after, so we are trying to figure out who now owns the interment rights to this plot. The problem is that the gravestone has both of my grandparents names/birthdates on it, but since my grandmother had remarried, her new husband buried her in his hometown (in a plot that he had for himself and his many wives, way far up in Northern Ontario). Her new husband inherited ALL of her estate. We were in shock, as this was not what we thought was in her will. We knew of a will that included her two sons, AND the new husband's son. Apparently, there was a new will done up on Christmas Eve only 6 weeks before she passed away. (This new will excluded her own 2 sons, and this 'stranger' had inherited ALL of what my grandfather had worked so hard for all of his life.) .... sorry if this is getting confusing...... Anyways, it appears though that he also inherited the rights to the plot in Hamilton that my grandfather is buried in. (It was a double plot and sold as one unit, so cannot be resold.) He likely was never aware that he was the 'proud new owner' of these interment rights.... Grandma's new husband has since passed away, and now it appears that his son has inherited all of my grandparents estate and his own father's estate..... (Lucky guy!!!) AND the plot in Hamilton, that my grandfather is buried in. (The stone still has an empty spot where her death date was to be inscribed. This is why this can of worms was opened up. I decided that since she was gone since the 70's, maybe we could just have her death date put on the stone.... NOT!!!!) There has been no activity or contact from the 'new husband's son' and I am sure he likely doesn't even know that he may have inherited it since they live very far away up North. It has been 31 years since the cemetery has had any contact dealing with this plot/gravestone. I recently looked into this since my own father is getting up there in age. We wanted to be able to use the extra plot for him, but was told by the cemetery that we must have the son of my grandmother's 2nd husband tranfer the interment rights BACK to our family since he is the current owner. (I was shocked to think that a complete stranger is now the owner and we have no rights!!!) Since this was so bizarre, I decided to research it..... (no lawyers involved at present), and this is what I have found: Interment rights will descend to his or her heirs according to the laws of descent...AND Interment rights are usually given special status under the law and it is necessary to specifically provide in a will for the transfer of the interment right. This result was based on the common law that an interment right is considered essentially to be a family heritage, not likely to be inventoried with a decedent's assets or regarded as property to pass by the will. (My grandmother's new will did not specifically include that it be willed to her new husband. Considering this, and in order to protect the family heritage, one would assume/hope that it would remain with our family.....this is how I understand what I have read.) Further, since the residuary (remainder) portion of an estate could go to someone other than the family, (which in this case, it went to her new husband - a stranger to our family), it would defeat the purpose to allow that result. The ownership of the interment right will only pass to the next generation "AS IF THE OWNER HAD DIED INTESTATE (without a will) UNLESS SPECIFICALLY TRANSFERRED BY THE OWNER by will or gift" (and it wasn't transferred to him anywhere on paper.) The basis all of this is specifically to ensure by way of rights, to protect the family heritage and to insure the blood heirs and descendants of the original owner will have the right to use any available spaces. I have been in contact with the Ministry (Cemetery Regulations Dept.) regarding this issue, and the lady I spoke with consulted with the Registrar... Apparently there is nothing in place that would refer to any "Laws of Descent" to preserve the family heritage, so we are basically out of luck.... End result is, "My grandmother's second husband's son, a complete stranger to our family, now owns interment rights to the plot my grandfather is buried in.... and where my grandmother was supposed to be buried, but is buried elsewhere..... We have no rights unless he legally transfers them to our family...." Does anyone have any concrete information, or know of anyone that I could contact about this??? I think it's totally ridiculous that interment rights are owned by a stranger who doesn't even know he owns it, nor would he likely have any reason to want to bury a stranger beside my grandfather..... I would really like to refrain from pursuing this with a lawyer, if at all possible.... Also, pertaining to the 'selling or buying' of plots, this is what I found in some FAQ's.... When I buy a plot, do I own the land? No. What you own is the right to determine who may be buried in your lot. These rights are called "interment rights". The land remains the property, and the responsibility, of the cemetery. Can I sell my plot to someone else? No. Provincial law prohibits the private resale of interment rights. However, should you choose not to use your interment rights, the cemetery will be pleased to buy them back from you, in accordance with provincial law, or you may transfer your interment rights to a third party through the cemetery office. Thanks for your time and to all who may respond..... J*O*D*Y* P.S. Ellen - Might your Genealogical Group's President have any information you could forward to me about this?? Your post below actually prompted me to post my query..... Thanks :-) > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > Subject: SELLING TOMBSTONES > Date: Sun, 7 Nov 2004 16:08:43 -0500 > From: "Ellen Murray" <ellen.murray@sympatico.ca> > To: CA-ONT-CEMETERIES-L@rootsweb.com > > Am passing this on "third party" but the President of our Genealogical Group > recently went through question of ownership re; his Grt. Grandfathers plot. > The lawyer told him that ownership follows the heir to the estate down the > line. I would like to know which cemetery in Simcoe is selling the stones > and do they have to advertise publicly before doing so. > Ellen ==== CA-ONT-CEMETERIES Mailing List ==== To UnSUBSCRIBE: to CA-ONT-CEMETERIES-L-request@rootsweb.com the word unsubscribe in the subject and body. ============================== View and search Historical Newspapers. Read about your ancestors, find marriage announcements and more. Learn more: http://www.ancestry.com/s13969/rd.ashx

Jody .. I would strongly suggest that you contact a lawyer regarding both the cemetery plot and your grandmother's Will. Usually the initial meeting with a lawyer, during which generalities are discussed, is not 'on the clock'. Should you decide to utilize his/her services you will then be charged for ensuing meetings and telephone-given advice. The people you have been in contact with do not seem to have been all that helpful. You really do need a professional legal opinion on these matters. You may be asked by the lawyer, because a new Will was drawn up just six weeks prior to her demise, what was your grandmother's health, mental capabilities. Although the 'ownership' of the plot in which your grandfather is interred seems to be uncertain, or not, depending on who claims, because no specific direction was given in your grandmother's Will, it may still remain to the direct family. That is, the related through bloodline family. There are multi-thousands, if not millions of situations where cemetery plots have been passed down and remained in the direct-line families for many generations, in spite of the fact that widows and widowers may have subsequently remarried. It seems to have been a widely understood and accepted "gentleman's agreement" in most cases, ( or assumed in English Common Law) with ownership remaining to the direct family line of the original owner. . In circumstances where a large estate was involved it would have been most likely that a lawyer's services was contracted, an all-encompassing Will was drawn and all the sticky details were dealt with. . Look for a "Family Law" specialist. James .