I have heard of a common naming convention, but I've never had an explanation of how it worked. Could someone tell me what the convention is for the first three children of either sex? Also, in what countries and during what time period was this convention most prevalent? Thanks - Candy Cox Researching GLASS

Hi Jim, Thanks for letter,am sending a copy of your letter - and my reply to list as may be of interest.: JLeon2447@aol.com wrote: > Hi Margaret, > I noticed your recent posting about poor relief. wondered > where you found records from 1700?As far as I know, the Poor Relief Law did not > come into force until 1845, as a direct result of the "Disruption" in the > Established Church of Scotland. So there are no Parochial Boards or Poor Relief > Records to be found before then,unless perhaps some mention of poor relief in > Kirk Session records. Yes Jim! You are correct. I have a page copied from "SESSION BOOK OF ROTHESAY" 1658 - 1750. Session Held Rothesay June 29th 1720. After Prayer. Gives names of the Provost, Bailiff, Elders,and Deacon. A couple of samples are:Amounts given to severall indigent persons and approven by the Session. one pound four shillings Scots each to helen Stewart, Catherine N'Arthur. one lib. each to John M'Kinlay's orphans, and Ninian Stewart. item half a crown to help the payment of one Seymore's cure. one pound two shillings and four pennies for new cloaths to Isobel N'Curdy (her old ones having been stollen. Above was copied from the book in Rothesay Library .NOTE; Typed as shown re spelling and the letter "N" re Curdy. i do not know what a "LIB" is in coinage! Also shows fines for "carnel knowledge" Hope this is of help to someone. Regards Margaret -- RESEARCHING SCOTLAND: ANDERSON, BARR, BROWN, BUTCHER,BAIKIE, CAIRNS,CAMPBELL,CANTWELL, CONNOR, CONWAY, CONNOLY, DOUGLAS, EVANS, GARDNER, GEMMELL, GREY, HAVEY, HARVIE,HAY, HENDERSON,HOWDEN, IRVINE, LAURIE, MACMINIGAL, McKELLAR, McGRAW, McDERMID, McCLYMONT, McCRACKEN,McGRATH, McELROY, MITCHELL, MURRAY,RANKIN, REID,RONALD, ROSS,RAINEY,SANDS,SCOTT,SLAVEN,STEWART,STRUTHERS,THOMSON.TOTTEN, WEIR,MORTON. USA\CANADA:BLACKWOOD, PEACOCK, ROSS,STEWART, AND MANY MORE.

Hello Candy, The naming convention in Scotland was generally that the first son was named after the father's father, the first daughter after the mother's mother, the second son after the mother's father and the second daughter after the father's mother. You can check this at the website http://www.nevisuk.net/dgfhs/naming.html which points out that there might be variations. This practice can be very useful in providing clues to relationships - the disadvantage is that you find lots of cousins with the same names and more often than not end up totally confused :-( As far as I know this applies just to Scotland, although I believe many Scottish emigrants will have followed the same practice. My only other experience is in England where names were often handed down from generation to generation, but with nothing like the strict adherence to protocol found in Scotland. However, as Peter suggests, it is as well to be wary: My family (Argyll and Bute) followed the above from about 1800 (maybe earlier - I'm stuck) right down to my father's generation (Glasgow 1904), with one variation in 1875. My grandfather ARCHIBALD HILL's sister - born Dumbartonshire 1875 and as second daughter presumably destined to be called Flora after her father's mother - was named Margaret Flora. Her father's sister Margaret had died a few months before and the new baby was possibly named for her. Regards Madeleine Wales In a message dated 6/11/00 12:14:41 PM GMT Daylight Time, ccox@carolina.rr.com writes: << I have heard of a common naming convention, but I've never had an explanation of how it worked. Could someone tell me what the convention is for the first three children of either sex? Also, in what countries and during what time period was this convention most prevalent? >>

Welcome to Todd Tenney, Elizabeth Revell, Eddie Dowds and Judith Milner who have joined this week, also welcome back to VerDean. If you haven't already contributed, we hope to hear from you soon. ****** ****** ****** We are all probably well aware of the naming tradition for the first three children of either sex, but what happens next, or where there has already been a duplication of names ? >From a number of postings on other lists the following seems to be a useful rule of thumb ... Next son - father's eldest brother then - mother's eldest brother - father's 2nd eldest brother - mother's 2nd eldest brother, etc For the girls the sequence starts with ... Next daughter - mother's eldest sister then - father's eldest sister, etc with the proviso that where these relations didn't exist, or duplicated existing names, the others moved up the sequence. One correspondent put up a case for inclusion of the Great Aunts and/or Great Uncles when there were not enough Aunts or Uncles - I'll leave that up to you to include or discard. We are all aware of the pitfalls of the "Abt" entries in the IGI, to my mind there are enough variations from the accepted naming tradition to make going beyond the first five a similar exercise in creative thinking! Feel free to comment on this, or join in and present your own items. Peter Cook cookfmly@bigpond.com List owner and Co-host with Barbara < babrown@fast.net > of the ButeshireGenWeb mailing list. List owner of the SCT-RENFREW and SCT-ARGYLL mailing lists.

Forward from the EngGenWeb for your information. (Apologies to those who have seen it already) >>>>>>>>>>>> For those of you with links to Genuki, please verify that your link is pointing to the correct address: http://www.genuki.org.uk Apparently, there is a new for-profit genealogy company in Cumbria, England called Genuki, LTD. and they have registered the domain names: http://www.genuki.com and http://www.genuki.co.uk The commercial company is soliciting business under the guise of being affiliated with Genuki (non-profit). They asked Cindy Howell's to add their link to her site - she has refused. Feel free to post this to any other list you feel would like to know about this development. Best Wishes, Carol Hepburn chepburn@uswest.net Phoenix, AZ USA

Posted on: Buteshire Scotland Queries Board URL: http://cgi.rootsweb.com/~genbbs/genbbs.cgi/Scotland/Bute?read=367 Surname: KIRBY ------------------------- I am searching for a John KIRBY who went missing C1910-1914 (walked out of the house), my Great Grandfather. He was a seaman and lived in Ayr/Troon although he was English On a BBC television program last week, "YOUR TOWN" Rothesay was shown, a view of a Churchyard was shown. A Gravestone in that churchyard appeared to show a John Kirby with others. Does anyone know where this churchyard might be? Are there any Monument/Gravestone inscription listings of Rothesay? Thanks Lindsay Young

Hello Pam, > >Other children of the same parents (from LDS site) were > > Janet 1791 > > james 1791 > > Mary 1797 > > Isabella or Elizabeth 1797 > > William 1802 > > William 1808 > > > >These are possible but I cannot connect it. > >Do you have any reference to William McKelvie or any McKelvies that > may > >have left for Canada or any McKelvie's at all in Arran. I would be > >interested in any information that you may have. > >Thank > >Pam I am currently researching my husband's grgrgrandparents from Arran, Donald McKENZIE and Mary McKELVIE. I believe Mary may be the Mary mentioned above, born 1797. As far as I can find so far, there was only one Mary McKELVIE born about the right time in Arran. I have yet to purchase her death certificate to ascertain her parents' names. Perhaps you can contact me privately and we can discuss the details further. Regards, Jan Shaw, Listowner: AUS-VIC-DANDENONG-RANGES (Victoria, Australia).

Apologies to those on several lists who will get this message more than once. I have had problems with my service provider as a result of which I have had to make a slight change in my email address. Some incoming messages, I know, have gone astray. If anyone has emailed me personally in the last two days (6, 7 June) and has not had an answer, please email me again on <martyntaylor@email.msn.com> Martyn

Please remember to send ALL mail for the list to ButeshireGenWeb-L@rootsweb.com no matter whether you are subscribed to List or Digest mode, and just use the -request@ address for subscribe and unsubscribe messages, thanks -----Original Message----- From: Benwick <benwick@telus.net> To: cookfmly@bigpond.com <cookfmly@bigpond.com> Date: Wednesday, 7 June 2000 2:05 Subject: McKelvie >Hi > >I am looking for an ancestor William MCKELVIE who is said to have come >from Arran and probably came to Canada in the first half of the 1800"s. >He was married in Ontario, Canada April 30, 1830, so he would have come >before that date. I found there was a large emigration from Arran in >1829, and among those were 6 McKelvies and 2 Hamiltons. His wife >Charlotte Cox was born in 1810 (England) so I'm assuming he could have >been born about 1800 + or- 10 years. I did find in the LDS site : > >William McKelvie c.. Apr 24, 1802 Kilbride and Arran, Bute Scotland > f. John McKelvie (b. about 1763) m. Mary >Hamilton(B. about 1768(mar. 25 Feb 1789, Kilbride) >and >William McKelvie b. Mar 23, 1802 Lamlash Kilbride, Bute Scotland > f. John McKelvie m. Mary Hamilton >and >Wm.MacKelvie, Christened on 21 May 1808. Mother Mary Hamilton. > (perhaps the earlier one died?) > >Other children of the same parents (from LDS site) were > Janet 1791 > james 1791 > Mary 1797 > Isabella or Elizabeth 1797 > William 1802 > William 1808 > >These are possible but I cannot connect it. >Do you have any reference to William McKelvie or any McKelvies that may >have left for Canada or any McKelvie's at all in Arran. I would be >interested in any information that you may have. >Thank >Pam >benwick@telus.net >pbenwick@direct.ca >Vancouver, Canada

I am looking for information on this family who appear to have lived there from the late 1830's for perhaps 50 years. The parents were John Spiers and Sarah Ralston and they were married on 27 June 1837 in Maybole, Ayrshire. I know nothing more about them. There are a number of children for which I have the birth/baptism dates. I would like to know what was on the census records for 1841 and 1851 - they were in Kilmory. And perhaps someone may have MI's that could cover any deaths for this family. Or perhaps someone could advise me who I can approach to help with these records. Rather than take up room with a long list of children's names, if someone feels they can help or have an interest, could they please contact me. Many thanks Elizabeth Leicester, UK

Why not start off by introducing yourself - telling us who you are, > where you live (state/county & country), what you do (retired / still > working) and what your genealogical interests are. You may well find > that you already have a 'cousin' out there, also 'listening in'! Ok....... My name is Peta-Anne Tenney and I am an Aussie now living in 'way too hot' Arizona, USA. My family, Miller, is from Tasmania and my great grandmother's family is from Isle of Bute. I am taking the liberty of telling all of you all I know......... BROWN, Mary Jane - Marriage Record, from Registry of BDM, State of Victoria, Commonwealth of Australia - gives the following information: The first column (title unreadable) shows the number '7'. On December 24th 1873, in Sandhurst, Victoria, Charles MILLER married Mary Jane BROWN. Miller's birthplace was Finedon, Northamptonshire, England, Brown was from Isle of Bute, Ruthsay, Scotland. Miller was listed as a miner; neither was previously married, being 29 and 21 years respectively. Both were residents in Sandhurst, Victoria. Mary Jane's parents were shown to be Hugh BROWN (factor) and Isobelle BLACK. With thanks (to Irene & Carolyn) I have a decent lead on Mary Jane BROWN's parents. The 1851 census shows Hugh, aged 26 (not born in Bute), Isabella aged 33 (born in Bute) and John aged 4m. in the Kingarth book 2, p12. This suggests they were born in 1825 and 1818 (or about). Looking in the Inward passenger list to Victoria, 1852-79, I see a couple matching them on the 'Chance' in October 1852 (fiche 056, p008). If this is the correct family why would their infants (John & Mary Jane) not have been listed? Further, from reference in the Pioneer index of Victoria 1836-1888, an Isabella matching this died in 1865. Her father is given as John Black and mother as (unknown) McClean. Reg. Number here is 1899. I believe now that I am looking for references to a Hugh Brown who would have been born around 1825, (not in Bute, but possibly at least in Scotland) and married an Isabella Black by Census time in 1851. I hope to connect to anyone who can assist in tracing Mary Jane's family - and even descendants of this family - please email at tptenney@vtc.net Peta-Anne, Aussie in Arizona

Posted on: Buteshire Scotland Queries Board URL: http://cgi.rootsweb.com/~genbbs/genbbs.cgi/Scotland/Bute?read=366 Surname: BROWN, BLACK ------------------------- Looking for origins and family that may be related to my great grandmother, below is everything I know of her and her family! Hope SKS's can help - maybe I'll find a distant cousin or two, Thanks, Peta-Anne, Aussie in Arizona. BROWN, Mary Jane - Marriage Record, from Registry of BDM, State of Victoria, Commonwealth of Australia - gives the following information: The first column (title unreadable) shows the number '7'. On December 24th 1873, in Sandhurst, Victoria, Charles MILLER married Mary Jane BROWN. Miller's birthplace was Finedon, Northamptonshire, England, Brown was from Isle of Bute, Ruthsay, Scotland. Miller was listed as a miner; neither was previously married, being 29 and 21 years respectively. Both were residents in Sandhurst, Victoria. Mary Jane's parents were shown to be Hugh BROWN (factor) and Isobelle BLACK. I hope to connect to anyone who can assist in tracing Mary Jane’s family – and even descendants of this family – please email at tptenney@vtc.net

Please remember to send ALL mail for the list to ButeshireGenWeb-L@rootsweb.com no matter whether you are subscribed to List or Digest mode, and just use the -request@ address for subscribe and unsubscribe messages, thanks -----Original Message----- From: Todd Tenney <tptenney@vtc.net> To: ButeshireGenWeb-L-request@rootsweb.com <ButeshireGenWeb-L-request@rootsweb.com> Date: Sunday, 4 June 2000 2:47 Subject: Re: subscribe Hello all - trying to gather up my great grandmothers family and do hope someone can help. This is the info I have........ BROWN, Mary Jane - Marriage Record, from Registry of BDM, State of Victoria, Commonwealth of Australia - gives the following information: The first column (title unreadable) shows the number '7'. On December 24th 1873, in Sandhurst, Victoria, Charles MILLER married Mary Jane BROWN. Miller's birthplace was Finedon, Northamptonshire, England, Brown was from Isle of Bute, Ruthsay, Scotland. Miller was listed as a miner; neither was previously married, being 29 and 21 years respectively. Both were residents in Sandhurst, Victoria. Mary Jane's parents were shown to be Hugh BROWN (factor) and Isobelle BLACK. I hope to connect to anyone who can assist in tracing Mary Jane's family - and even descendants of this family - please email at tptenney@vtc.net Peta-Anne, Aussie in HOT & SUNNY Arizona

Posted on: Buteshire Scotland Queries Board URL: http://cgi.rootsweb.com/~genbbs/genbbs.cgi/Scotland/Bute?read=365 Surname: Thomson, McLachlan, Mclean ------------------------- Hi Sharon, I'm a newcomer to this email and noted your interest in Thomsons of Bute. I have a Mary Thomson married to John Mclachlan . They had children Archibald, Isabella(myGr Grandmother) her twin sister Mary and a brother John. Isabella married john Mclean Kingarth parish in 1847.I think Isabella had worked on a farm at St Colmac before marrying John who was a shepherd. They eventually came to New Zealand in 1863. Any of these names ring a bell? Cheers for now .. Audrey

G'day Bill, Suggest you contact the State Library Melbourne Vic. They hold a good collection of newspaper records on film. Sorry I do not know their e-mail address.The Victoria Public Record Office in Melbourne has indices and lists for immigrants, they may respond to an overseas plea for elp( they won't for within Australia). Kevin Herring, Bowral NSW. ----- Original Message ----- From: Bill McKinlay <Bill.McK@xtra.co.nz> To: <ButeshireGenWeb-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Saturday, June 03, 2000 2:46 AM Subject: Immigrant Ships > Would any Australian group member know perhaps of a Melbourne paper that would still be in operation from the 1850s? > > I am looking for an immigrant ship passenger list that may have been published, as they often were, in 1853. > > Thanks > > Bill > > Bill.McK@xtra.co.nz > > >

Sent Saturday on account of it being the Foundation Day Public/Bank Holiday long weekend here in Western Australia - things to do .... ****** ****** ****** So, welcome to Jill Van Der Rayden and Charles Monk who have joined this week. If you haven't already contributed, we hope to hear from you soon. ****** ****** ****** E-mail Etiquette (Netiquette) Terminology / Abbreviations ( a limited selection) Spamming : Messages going everywhere or unnecessarily copying mail to others. Flames : Messages sent in anger or to create controversy. SKS : some kind soul AFAIK : as far as I know IMHO : In my humble opinion (often should be read as "In my not so humble opinion" <G>) Helpful Hint When you are first learning how to use email, experiment by sending the mail to yourself. Try the different options, reply to, forward, include attachments etc. If you make mistakes that's fine, because it is only to yourself. General Remember that electronic mail is about communication with others. As you are composing the message, check that it is concise and is how you want the addressee to react. Any time you spend making your email clearer is time well spent. Remember your email is not private. Don't say anything in email that you wouldn't be comfortable reading on page 1 of the paper. What you send to one person could be forwarded to others you didn't intend to send the message to. People have also been convicted of defamation from the contents of an email message. Do's and Don'ts Do's * Select the correct name from the address book. * Always include a meaningful subject line in your message. * Copy and paste material from documents or Gedcom files rather than attaching them. * Keep mail short and to the point but not at the expense of clarity and courtesy. * Use correct grammar and spelling. The option to Always check spelling before sending should be ticked. * Have a signature block (again clear and concise) that tells them who you are. * If you are replying to a message and changing the subject of the conversation, change the subject line too. * Include just enough of the original message to provide a context. * Use some kind of visual indication to distinguish between what you have written and what others have. (The default options of most e-mail systems will do this for you). * Pay careful attention to where your reply is going. Don'ts * DON'T TYPE IN UPPERCASE, people think you are SHOUTING at them. All Capital SURNAMES are an exception on genealogical lists. * Don't write everything as one paragraph. Messages containing "white spaces" are easier to read. * Avoid sending large files (over 2Mb), instead break large files into smaller bits. * Don't use Reply to All unless really necessary. ****** ****** ****** Feel free to join in and present your own items. Peter Cook cookfmly@bigpond.com List owner and Co-host with Barbara < babrown@fast.net > of the ButeshireGenWeb mailing list. List owner of the SCT-RENFREW and SCT-ARGYLL mailing lists.

Would any Australian group member know perhaps of a Melbourne paper that would still be in operation from the 1850s? I am looking for an immigrant ship passenger list that may have been published, as they often were, in 1853. Thanks Bill Bill.McK@xtra.co.nz

Charles is just a little ahead of himself here ... -----Original Message----- From: Maxine Monk <perthpunx@ozemail.com.au> To: buteshiregenweb-l-request@rootsweb.com <buteshiregenweb-l-request@rootsweb.com> Date: Wednesday, 31 May 2000 21:02 Subject: McKinnon >Subscribe >Researching the surname McKinnon. My g grandfather came from Rothesay. His family were all connected with River Clyde Shipping. His father was a Captain John McKinnon. Master of several steam boats on the Clyde. His brother was also a Captain, as was his son. Captain John was at one stage Police Commissioner of Gourock. >Would welcome any information on any of the McKinnon family. >Regards >Charles Monk >Padbury Western Australia >

Hi Everyone! I am new to this List having just discovered my GtGrandfather was from Bute. I found this out by contacting a relative who had a host of information kept by my Gt Aunt who was a hoarder and sentimentalist, just like me! My Gt Grandfather, Thomas CAMPBELL was born in Rothesay on 5 June 1861 and married Elizabeth WATSON in Glasgow on 7 June 1893. His parents were Thomas CAMPBELL born abt 1829, married Margaret ROWAND born 22 August 1832. I don't know where either were born or married. They had the following children: Jessie married Buchanan McMILLAN Jane married James WALLACE Margaret married Robert ANDERSON (went to Canada) Agnes married Walter McLEAN (went to Canada) James married Emily GITTINS (went to Canada) Thomas - details given above and possibly: George born abt 1872 James born abt 1870 (I suspect this James died young for there to have been a second son by the name of James born to this couple if he is one of their sons) I have learnt that Thomas Snr had a Tobacconists shop in Rothesay, I am not sure when he left Bute, he is known to have owned a Tobacconists shop in Glasgow about 1900 and died in Glasgow in 1913. I would love to hear from anyone who may recognise any of the names I am looking for or anyone who can advise me on how to go about finding more about my GtGrandfather's shop in Rothesay. Many Thanks Maureen Campbell Tandy

Posted on: Buteshire Scotland Queries Board URL: http://cgi.rootsweb.com/~genbbs/genbbs.cgi/Scotland/Bute?read=364 Surname: McLachlan, Mclean, Thomson, Gray ------------------------- I need info on Isabella Mclachlan's siblings, Archibald born 1815, Isabella and her twin sister Mary born 1821 and John born 1826 all at Rothesay. isabella married in 1847 to John Mclean.