There were, I believe, three major cholera pandemics that hit Europe in the early 1800s -1817, 1832 and 1846. The later one is described at the site below. The cities were the worst affected, especially the slums of places like Glasgow however I don't know of any records for Buteshire. That third outbreak co-incided with the potato famine which didn't just affect the Irish. Not much wonder so many of our ancestors bailed out at that time. The James Watt library in Greenock I believe have victims lists for that area for that time. http://www.ph.ucla.edu/epi/snow/pandemic1846-63.html Bill

Re: NICOL/McNICOL Christenings - Kilbride, Arran Sorry folks, while the intent was well meant, I'm going to have to call a halt to this type of posting. NO more bulk GRO(S) Index Extracts to the list, thank you. As an individual pays for use of the GRO(S) site, it could be taken that anything downloaded is then that person's data to do with as they will - this runs directly in contravention of the site copyright statement on personal use and the concept of fair dealing - its unethical at the very least, if not unlawful to pass it on in bulk in the public domain. Posting the information to a subscriber only mailing list such as this one is still a problem, because with the archives being freely available to all on the Internet, this is effectively publishing in the public domain - still a breach of copyright. Putting the data on a Personal web-site on the other hand, then asking people to link to the site is only a problem if the link is made directly to the data, otherwise any copyright issues are for the individual site owner to worry about / cope with. For this reason, I can not place it on the Buteshire Site. Having said all that, I believe there is less of problem in passing on the extra family/ies that one receives when ordering an extract from the 1891 census. If GRO(S) had wanted to restrict this information, then they should have given only the family group to which the order related and not included the extra. But I don't think I'd take the risk of putting it on a website. There is of course a way around this restriction, by posting under the same Subject the following message: "I have the index entries for all the these for 1769 - 1810. If anyone wants them, please contact me off list." Furthermore, anyone who has taken the time to extract indexes from other sources, and/or has access to the original documents for look ups, please note that this restriction does NOT in any way apply to posts from your index(es). Finally, please no ON list discussion. Peter List Maintainer

Hello everyone, This refers to an earlier period than the one Mary was asking about but might be of interest, referring to diseases on Bute in the 18th century. It comes from the 1985 Transactions of the Buteshire Natural History Society. In the Transactions, A Hunter reproduces in facsimile remarks made by botanist James Robertson who visited Bute in 1768 (queries in square brackets are mine, can't read facsimile). The notes say: "The men and women are of an ordinary size, generally of a Brown Complexion, are very healthy and some live to a great age." They continue: "Diseases - They have generally the Small Pox, once in seven years, but there are many Old People in the Island who never had them. Twenty years ago the Sibbins [??Gibbins] was very frequent, but now it is seldom to be met with .. Children are subject to worms and ffevers, and the common people to the scurvy, and itch. Children likewise dye of what in Arran is called the Eight days sickness, or Hoodfall [?Woodfall] as it is known here. It commonly seizes them before the Eight day, and is immediate death, their jaws fall so, that the point of a knife cannot be introduced betwixt the gums. And this disease is imputed to the unskilfullness of the Midwives. In Spring coughs and sore throats are frequent." Does anyone know: Is the "Eight days sickness" lockjaw? What is The Sibbins/Gibbins? I am pasting below some deaths I found at the end of a Kingarth OPR film, still moving all these years on, Madeleine Wales 1769 Nov 8 Stewart, lawful son to William ROBERTSON and Elizabeth SHARP at Scalpsie Miln died suddenly aged 2 months May 22: John son to Daniel McGILCHERAN and Elizabeth GILLIES at Scalpsie Miln died of the smallpox upon the 22nd and was buried upon the 23rd aged 6years Archibald lawful son to Brice [maybe Bruce] McGILCHERAN and Catherine STEWART in Scalpsie Miln died of the smallpox, May 30th 1775: Ann DUNCAN daughter to John Duncan at Saclpsie Mill died of the stopping [?] upon the [llegible] and buried upon the fourth aged about 12 years.

Does anyone know if there was an epidemic of some kind in Bute in 1955? Going through McKirdy's index I note 6 deaths in one family in that year. That seems unlikely in the normal course of things so I wonder if there might have been a cholera epidemic or something. Mary H.

Hello there, I'm new to the list and realise that the information so far is really for Dunbartonshire, but I haven't had much luck there. I know it is a long shot but after a family holiday last year, we noticed that there were several McKIRDY's in Bute so I just wondered if this family were there before moving to Dunbartonshire? I have a John MCKIRDY married to Helen MCBRIDE on 31/12/1885 in Dumbarton. From the marriage Certificate his father was John MCCURDY a labourer in Engine works deceased and his mother was Mary ms MCBRIDE. Helens parents were John MCBRIDE coachman deceased and Bridget ms Kerr. John was living at no. 14 Williams Street Dennystown aged 24 and Helen lived at 16 Williams Street, Dennystown aged 25. From the 1891 census John was born in Dumbarton and Helen was born in Ireland. From the 1881 Census Johns mother Mary was born in Ireland. Can anyone help me with John McKirdys birth and also his fathers marriage and birth or anything to do with the above. Thank you. Jane (DERBY)

Welcome to John Brady, Ed Tily, Cathy McBey and Robert W Lyons who have joined this week. If you haven't already contributed, we hope to hear from you soon. ****** ****** ****** A number of warnings have appeared on other lists re : http://www.familydiscovery.com/ or variations which include familydiscovery in the address. One posting referred to it moving to a site with ISP Prodigy. It apparently charges for access to geneanological information which is freely available at other sites - I have not tried it so cannot comment further - just thought you should know and be turn be warned. ****** ****** ****** Short and sweet this week, so feel free to join in and present your own items. Peter Cook cookfmly@bigpond.com List maintainer and Co-host with Barbara < babrown@fast.net > of the ButeshireGenWeb mailing list.

Hello Bill (McKinlay), Peter (Cook) and All, Bill has very kindly tried to explain to me how I may share this information that I've extracted with the group and I've made my attempt. Group, I hope this doesn't come through as a total mess. If it does, please accept my apologies. I'm a poor excuse for a computer techie. Peter, perhaps there is some way that you could add this information to the Buteshire web site's One Name section, if you so wished. Kind Regards, Pat McCabe NICOL / McNICOL Christenings In KILBRIDE PARISH, ARRAN, BUTESHIRE extracted from the GRO Index year / day and month / surname / forename / father's name / mother's name 1769 / 14 May / NICOL / Alexander / NICOL, Daniel / ............ 1770 / 23 September / NICOL / Duncan / NICOL, John / ............ 1771 / 2 August / NICOL / John / NICOL, John / ............ 1772 / 7 February / NICOL / Alexander / NICOL, James / ............ 1772 / 17 May / NICOL / Anna / NICOL, James / ............ 1773 / 17 April / NICOL / Mary / NICOL, Alexander / ............ 1773 / 7 September / NICOL / Anna / NICOL, James / ............ 1774 / 14 March / NICOL / Mary / NICOL, John / ............ 1775 / 31 January / NICOL / Lillias / NICOL, Alexander / ............ 1800 / 4 May / NICOL / Nelly / NICOL, John / DAVISON, Eliza 1800 / 25 July / NICOL / Elizabeth / NICOL, James / BANNATYNE, Janet 1800 / 25 July / NICOL / Nicol / NICOL, Donald / THOMSON, Christian 1800 / 9 September / NICOL / Mary / NICOL, John / THOMSON, Flory 1802 / 4 March / NICOL / Archibald / NICOL, Donald / THOMSON, Christiana 1802 / 3 April / NICOL / James / NICOL, Robert / Mc ?, Ann 1802 / 22 April / NICOL / Jannet / NICOL, Alexander / COOK, Catherine 1803 / ? January / NICOL / ------ / NICOL, James / BANNATYNE, Jannet 1804 / 22 April / McNICOL / Mary / McNICOL, Donald / THOMSON, Christian 1804 / 31 May / NICOL / Jannet / NICOL, Peter / MILLER, Mary 1804 / 7 October / NICOL / Robert / NICOL, Robert / Mc ?, Ann 1804 / 21 December / NICOL / Isabella / NICOL, John / DAVISON, Eliza 1805 / 22 February / NICOL / John / NICOL, John / THOMSON, Flora 1805 / 4 August / NICOL / Jannet / NICOL, James / BANNATYNE, Jannet 1806 / 11 February / NICOL / Jannet / NICOL, George / HAMILTON, Cathrine 1806 / 5 September / NICOL / John / NICOL, Alexander / COOK, Cathrine 1807 / 12 April / NICOL / Jannet / NICOL, Robert / Mc ?, Ann 1807 / 21 July / NICOL / Jannet / NICOL, George / HAMILTON, ------ 1807 / 1 October / NICOL / Jean / NICOL, John, / THOMSON, Flory 1807 / 27 October / NICOL / ------ / NICOL, Peter / MILLAR, Mary 1808 / 18 February / McNICOL / Flory / McNICOL, Donald / THOMSON, Christian 1808 / 30 May / NICOL / Catherine / NICOL, James / BANNATYNE, Jannet 1809 / 12 February / McNICOL / John / McNICOL, Alexander / COOK, Kathrine 1809 / 27 February / McNICOL / Daniel / McNICOL, James / BLACK, Mary 1809 / 7 May / McNICOL / Annie / McNICOL, George / HAMILTON, Kathrine 1809 / 30 July / McNICOL / Elizabeth / McNICOL, John / MacBRIDE, Susanna 1810 / 15 April / NICOL / Nicol / NICOL, Donald / THOMSON, Christian 1810 / 22 August / NICOL / Margret / NICOL, James / BANNATYNE, Janet 1810 / 28 October / NICOL / Margret / NICOL, John / THOMSON, Flora

Posted on: Buteshire Scotland Queries Reply Here: http://cgi.rootsweb.com/~genbbs/genbbs.cgi/Scotland/Bute/10509 Surname: McNISH, McNEISH, NICOL, McNICOL, MILLER, MILLAR, McKELVIE ------------------------- New Kilbride, Arran, Buteshire information and new surname connections discovered this week - look forward to exchanging information with anyone who recognizes a connection to any of these persons: Daniel McNISH/McNEISH/MacNEISH bc1803 Paisley, Renfrewshire, now confirmed by his death record as s/o Thomas McNISH/McNEISH and, his wife Jane "Jean" NICOL/McNICOL who was originally of Kilbride Parish, Arran. Daniel McNEISH was baker/grocer/postmaster in Lamlash, Kilbride, Arran. Daniel McNEISH married in 1831 Kilbride, Arran, Janet NICOL/McNICOL bc1804 Kilbride, Arran and had children: Peter bc1832, Archibald bc1833, Mary Miller bc1836, Janet "Jeanie" b 16 Apr.1838, Thomas b1839, Jessie bc1844, Christina bc1845 and Elizabeth b 2 Sept.1849. Daniel McNEISH d 1876, aged 73, in Glasgow, Lanarkshire and Janet NICOL/McNICOL d Kilbride Parish, Arran, probably 1891. (Unproven) Janet NICOL/McNICOL may have been the d/o Peter NICOL and Mary MILLER/MILLAR of Arran- information pending from GRO. Mary Miller McNEISH bc1836 Lamlash, Kilbride Parish, Arran, married 19 May, 1856 in Kilbride, Arran, Neil McKELVIE, also of Arran. Neil McKELVIE d Unknown Date and Place, before 1881. In 1881 Mary, a widow, is living in Glasgow, Lanarkshire with their children and in 1891 she and her children are back living in Kilbride, Arran. Children: Neil McKELVIE b 4 Sept.1858 Kilbride, Arran (1881 occupation - Analytical Chemist) Jessie N. C. McKELVIE bc 1862 At Sea Infant Daughter McKELVIE b 25 June 1864 Kilbride Donald McKELVIE b 24 Feb.1867 Kilbride Regards, Pat McCabe Link: McNeish/McNish URL: <http://www.mccabeclan.com/mcneish.htm>

Posted on: Buteshire Scotland Queries Reply Here: http://cgi.rootsweb.com/~genbbs/genbbs.cgi/Scotland/Bute/10506 Surname: Bannatyne, McCallum ------------------------- Looking for information on my great grandparents, Margaret Jane Bannatyne who was born on the Isle of Arran in August, 1864. She married Peter McCallum, born July 1869 in Doune Stirlingshire. My grandmother Flora Jane Bannatyne McCallum was born in Blackwaterfoote on January 22, 1894. The family including several brothers emigrated to the US in the early 1900's and eventually homesteaded in Canada. I believe cousins named "Murchies" also came to Canada at the same time.

I can't figure out how to send the link without all the fancy stuff ( I don't have a clue what I am doing with computers!) but if you go to your search engine and type in "Donegal strays in the 1881 census" you will get there the same. at the very bottom of the page you will see a link to other interesting information good luck

Jane wrote ... > ... what I did find was a site which has a site which has Irish >strays with several names from Scotland including Rothesay/Kingarth areas. >Can I post links to sites on this list???? Certainly, and note: they'll need to be just plain text, no fancy HTML stuff. Peter List maintainer

I have searched for Scottish stone mason guild and received hundreds of pages about masons (freemasons) which wasn't what I really wanted but thanks for the advice, what I did find was a site which has a site which has Irish strays with several names from Scotland including Rothesay/Kingarth areas. Can I post links to sites on this list???? Regards Jane

The following is taken from Vol. 2 of Rothesay Town Council Records for 1745 and, hopefully, may be of general interest: "Highway from Church of Rothesay to this Borough and others is extremely defective. Call together tennents cottars and others with horses, carts, shovels, spades and pick-axes each three days before last day of June and other three days after Harvest nixt. To be read in Church at Rothesay so that none may pretend ignorance. Signed by order of Council by Hugh McBride." Best regards, Bill Lankford Princess Anne, Maryland USA

Hi Listers Is anybody researching the name DAVIE? I am at a deadend with this elusive ancestor. I have: James DAVIE, Silversmith, married Elizabeth HALLIDAY in Greenock, Renfrewshire on 21 June 1816 (have extract) they had 2 children: James b Greenock 2.4.1819 (have extract) Samuel Ewing b Greenock 14.7.1824 (have extract) James (Jr) "Seaman" married Jessie TAYLOR in Rothesay 25.9.1851 (have extract) - migrated to Australia - 1852/3. Samuel Ewing "Watchmaker" married Catherine CAMPBELL 1.1.1852 in Greenock (have extract) Catherine's father was Alexander CAMPBELL, "Merchant" of Greenock. Samuel was living in Dundonald, Ayr (mentioned in Pigots for Saltcoats) I have ALL Death Certificates, and etcetera. HELP!!!??? Janelle Canberra, Australia jcmch@cyberone.com.au Researching Davie, Halliday, Menzies, Taylor, Barr

As we are on the subject of fishing, thought timing for this letter was appropriate. John McK. was my GG Grandfather, a fish curer of Rothesay. Obviously he would need to be with the fishing fleet wherever it was operating and shows how far from home that was at times. To Mr John Mackinlay Sloop Scotia One Penny Postage Care of Mr Manson Castlemoie Isle of Skye Postmarked 0621 1847 Rothesay 21st October 1847 My Dear Sir · I.shipped for you on board the Flora, D. Gillies, which sailed yesterday. 5 half barrels Oat Meal @ 19/- per boll 1 “ “ Barley “ 18/- cwt. 6 Barrels coals which I hope he will be able to deliver to you without being put to any inconvenience. I was very glad to hear that you had been fortunate in getting a lot of Herrings. I trust the fishing may continue and that you may sneedily get loaded. The fishing in Lochfine is doing nothing. The price for Highland Herrings in Glasgow last week was 45/- per brl. but on the news of the good fishing north coming home the price has fallen considerably and if the fishing continue is expected to come down lower, but all depends on the. fishing. Mrs. McKinlay told me you intended sending home a lot, if so I will be most happy to take charge of them. I do think it will be your best plan to send home as many early cured ones as you have. I wrote you about a fortnight ago to Glendhu but as you left that coming south about the time of my writing I suppose you will not have got it. Our Grain Markets are at present very fluctuating but the general tendency is downwards. Our price for County Oat Meal this week is from 18/- to 20/- per boll. That sent you is our best. Business is in a very depressed state for want of money. It is generally expected that the Mills and other public works throughout the country will be either working on half time or stopped altogether. The proprietors being unable to carry them on owing to the enormous rate of interest they are obliged to pay. if such be the case, this winter will be as bad as lasts not from scarcity of food but of money, the consequence of which will be that the working people not being able to buy so freely the markets will be quite choked and goods of all descriptions going for little or nothing. ‘There are very few of our cautious merchants holding large stocks, everyone doing with as little as possible dreading the worst, but I hope the government will do something to arrest the threatened calamity. I will be happy to hear from you when convenient, remember me to Scotia, My Dear Sir Yours sincerely (Signed) Jas Mclndoe (If you advise me when you forward The Herrings per Steamer to Glasgow I will go up and take charge of them.) (Boll - a measure of capacity for grain etc. used in Scotland. Usually = 6 imperial bushels - a barrel would contain approx. 36 bushels)

There doesn't seem to be any reference in a fairly extensive chapter in Blain's 'History of Bute" of anyone, other than the crown, having owned rights to fishing from the earliest of days - at least as far as herring fisheries which was the major industry. That said, there is as the following extract refers, reference to leases which I presume were for the collection of revenue on behalf of the state. "A fleet of about 600 boats or upwards was frequently found in the Firth of Clyde. By very ancient usage, all herring fishers had become subject to the payment of a certain moiety of fish to the King. These were called excise or assize herrings. Some merchants having disputed this right of the Crown in the reign of James V., it was decided in an action for that purpose, at the instance of William Harper and his colleagues, December, 1516 (Skene, De Verborum Significatiane), “That the King should have off every boat that passes “to the drave, and slays herrings 1000 herrings of ilk tack,” and it was declared by Act of Parliament in 1597 that all infeftments and alienations in feu form or otherwise, and all rentals, assedations, and dispositions whatever, in time by gone or thereafter, of the excise herrings were null and of no avail, because the said assize herrings pertain to the King, as a part of his customs and annexed property. Notwithstanding the prohibition in the aforesaid Act against the setting of rentals or assedations of the assize herrings, yet they were often given in lease. The tacksmen seldom took the fish in kind. They were usually commuted for by pecuniary payment, which came to be ten pounds Scots annually from each boat. Who-ever enjoyed the lease was bound by himself, or others for him, to attend the fishing whenever it should happen; to hold frequent courts, and redress, and if possible, prevent all manner of grievances and abuses falling out among the fishers. Towards the more certain, uniform, and impartial distribution of justice to these people, regulations were enacted from time to time." >From the 1851 census it is apparent that revenue collection was well under state control by that time. There was a John McAlister aged 80 who was a retired fisheries officer listed as well as a John stewart, 65, Commander of the fisheries revenue cutter "Princess Royal" residing in Rothesay at that time. I'd be interested in any other information on the subject as, like a great number of others on the list I suspect, many of my ancestors were involved in the Islands fisheries. I'm happy to scan and post the whole chapter on fisheries from the book PROVIDING I am not running foul of copyright. It was written in 1818 and published in 1850 so believe it is OK to do so but I am no expert on that subject and would appreciate guidance on this. Bill.

could someone please look up the death for a samuel bowles. all i know that he died before he's son wedding in 1874. julie from australia.

Bill wrote ... > ... a fairly extensive chapter in Blain's 'History of Bute" ... SNIP >I'm happy to scan and post the whole chapter on fisheries >from the book PROVIDING I am not running foul of copyright. >It was written in 1818 and published in 1850 so believe it is >OK to do so but I am no expert on that subject and would >appreciate guidance on this. It really depends whether the book was ever republished - if not then no problem - if so, then copyright dates from the most recent edition. Doesn't have to be the same publisher, and doesn't have to be exactly the same content - the copyright still carries forward. Peter

Jane Price wrote: > > Hi Everyone > > > > Some of the other names I am researching are > Revie, Rafferty, Black, Brown, White, Lyle, Argyll and Lanarkshire > > Regards, Jane > Dear Jane, The only thing that I can think of is with your stone masons; they may have a guild which lists members. Searcg your favorite engine for Scottish Stonemasons' Guild. Regards,

Dear List, An elderly relative of mine, from whom I am no longer able to gather information, identified John MacIlchattan and "Euphen" MacKinnon of Kilmory, Arran, in the 1740s as our ancestors. I do not know where he found these names. The woman was, apparently, Euphemia, but the name got garbled in whatever records(s) he saw. Whether these people were my ancestors or not remains to be proved, as I do not know the source of the information. However, another question troubles me about the wife's surname. Was it really MacKinnon, or could it have been MacKinven? My relative may have mis-read the surname. Does anyone know anything about this couple? I have NO additional information as to dates or specific places. The suggestion is that John and "Euphen" were the parents of one Donald MacIlchattan who married a Barbara _____ and settled at Torrisdale, Parish of Saddell, Kintyre. Once again, I have no proof of any of that, but would like to learn the surname of Barbara as it might be a clue to follow. Can anyone "guess" what documents my relative saw which brought these names to light? I presume he did more than "trawl" in the IGI. All information welcome. George Sanborn