With Cliffs permission I'm forwarding this for the list's interest, there is also an update on the current position at the end: >From "Scottish Lore and Folklore" by Ronald Douglas comes the following: "Since the Scots Marriage Laws are likely to be of greater interest to readers living abroad, than reference to any of the other laws, I put this note second in importance to that on the Courts. Most people of Scottish descent, and any people who are at all interested in Scotland, know that the Marriage Laws of Scotland differ considerably from those of the rest of Europe;  but how, and where, they differ is a matter that is not fully understood even within Scotland itself. In the law of Scotland marriage is a simple contract, which is completed by nothing more formal than mutual consent.  There are no formalities necessary, and any boy over the age of fourteen, and any girl over the age of twelve, may contract a marriage without consent of parents or guardians. This simple form of marriage, or Irregular Marriage, is a survival of modes of marriage at one time general throughout Europe, Scotland having disregarded the decrees of the Council of Trent invalidating such marriages.  These irregular marriages are, in Scotland, thoroughly legal, and completely binding, and they can only be dissolved by death or legal divorce. There are three ways in which an irregular marriage may be contracted:  (1) By sincere mutual consent before two witnesses.  There need not be anything in writing, and it has even been held that the presence of witnesses is not a necessity if there is anything else to prove the mutual consent to the contract.  (2) By promise of marriage followed by intercourse on the faith of that promise.  The promise, however, must be definitely proved.  (3) By constantly living together as husband and wife, so establishing a consistent repute of marriage.  Marriage by the first method (the other two methods obviously not coming into the question) is only valid following a residence in Scotland of not less than three weeks.  But it is sufficient if only one of the parties to the marriage has resided in Scotland for three weeks or more.  That is to say, a foreigner (see under Foreigner) may come to Scotland, live in Scotland for three weeks, and then send for his bride, and marry her immedi! ately she sets foot in Scotland.  A native Scot, who has consistently lived out of Scotland for any length of time, is as subject to the residence qualification as a foreigner.  The residence qualification is the result of comparatively recent legislation, and is not part of the common law of Scotland. There is no stigma attached in anyway to an irregular marriage, or to those who contract one.  Irregular marriages may be registered, if the parties to such a marriage desire it, by their putting in an appearance before the Sheriff within three months.  On the Sheriff granting warrant, the Registrar registers the marriage for a fee of 5s. 1d. A Regular Marriage in Scotland is one which is celebrated by a Minister of religion after due notice by publication of banns, or after publication by the Registrar.  A regular marriage need not be celebrated in a church:  the minister may carry out the marriage ceremony in a private house, or in a room in a restaurant, or public hall, taken for the occasion." We Scots are\were a very practical people.  Unfortunately English influence was brought to bear over the years and many superior cultural differences disappeared.  I hope that this answers your question, at least in part. Cliff. Johnston Granbury, TX "...sifting through the sands of time - Gentle Johnston(e)s, one by one." know that trendy historians on TV avoid the past tense, but it is misleading to print the extract from Ronald Douglas' "Scottish Lore and Folklore" without adding the qualification that he is describing the situation in Scotland some 60 years ago. Not today. The forms of marriage by (1) mutual consent and (2) promise+intercourse were abolished in 1940. The third variety, by cohabitation with habit and repute, remained as the basis of a Common Law marriage if the Court of Session accepted a declaration to that effect. Edward H. Thompson, Dundee, Scotland http://homepages.tesco.net/~eandcthomp/aaa.htm edward Limpsfield, Surrey Using Norton Anti-Virus 2003

Hi Ed, The following comes from J E Reid's "History of the County of Bute" pp 244-245 published in 1864. Much of the information you have given is confirmed here. "The KILCHATTAN estates passed in 1664 to James Stewart, son of John Stewart, of Ballinstraid, or Ballintoy, County Antrim, Ireland, who was of that date served heir to Ninian Stewart of Kilchattan, his uncle's son. The service included the principal mansion of Kilchattan. The lands were purchased, in 1698, by Sir James Stewart, and thereby became part of the Bute estate. The ASCOG property still remains separate, although portions of the original estate have passed to the Bute family, it was originally acquired by a branch of the Bute family, and was united with the estate of Kilcattan; thereafter, it passed to a second son of Stewart of Kilcattan, in the person of John, who married a daughter of Fairlie of that Ilk about 1584; his son, John of Ascog, married Gilles, daughter of Kelso of Kelsoland (now Brisbane, Largs); and their son, Ninian, married Janet, daughter of Blair of that Ilk; their son, John, was twice married; and his eldest son, John, married Margaret, daughter of John Robertson, apothecary to Charles II., and chirurgeon in Glasgow; and their son married Margaret, daughter of Captain Archibald Murray of Blackbarony. Thereafter, the estate came to belong to the Murrays; and on 28th May, 1763, John Murray of Blackbarony executed a deed of entail, in which, failing heirs of the entailer, and of his sister Mary and her heirs, the e! state was destined to Archibald, only son of Mr M'Arthur of Milton, whose relationship is not stated. Mr M'Arthur took the additional name of Stewart, and was one of the Edinburgh celebrities of his day immortalised in Kay's Portraits. He was a man of exceedingly parsimonious habits, was never married, and had no domestic servant, but generally employed some neighbour's wife to perform the drudgery of the house; he was likewise eccentric to such a degree, that he kept pigs in his bedroom, and would not allow them to be disturbed. Besides the Ascog and Milton estates, he acquired large properties in Argyleshire, and was also proprietor of part of Coates, near Edinburgh, where he lived for some years in the old turreted house at the west-end of Melville Street, and latterly in Lord Wemyss' house, Laurieston, where he died 28th March, 1815, aged 66. He generally wore white clothes, and had a peculiar manner of throwing his legs over each other in walking, which was owing probably to his great corpulency. After his death, the estate of Ascog fell to Frederick Campbell Stuart, Es! q., the next substitute of entail, and afterwards having been disentailed, I presume was acquired by the late Robert Thorn, Esq., of the Rothesay cotton works, whose family still retain the property." The estate of Ascog was at the time of Robert Thom's ownership, about 420 acres around but not including the loch which covers an area of 90 acres and it is just South of Rothesay township. Might I perhaps suggest, if you have not already done so that you obtain the Services to Heirs relating to the estate - there are a number from 1815, 1826, 1828 and 1829. Also the sasine indexes will have some detail of the transfer of ownership to Robert Thom. These are on LDS film. Perhaps the archivist at the Mountstuart trust might be able to shed some light on the connection between the Stewarts of Ascog and their bunch. Again, according to Reid, Ninian, the seventh child of Ninian Stewart, Chamberlain of Bute and heritable keeper of Rothesay Castle. (by his third wife, Elizabeth Blair) " Got Nether Kilmory from his brother Robert in 1532 and Largabrachtan from (brother) William in 1548. Succeeded to Kildavanan on the death of his father and purchased Kilchattan from his cousins, and was ancestor of the Kilcattan and Ascog families of Stewart from whom come the Stewarts of Ballinstraid and the Stewarts of Ballintoy, in Ireland, through whom the Marquis of Londonderry is descended from the Bute family" Ninians elder brother, James Stewart, became Sheriff of Bute in 1539 (Reid p159) Hope this is of some help. Cheers, Bill

Hello, I am seeking information about my G/G/Grandfather Captain Samuel PICKEN, son of James PICKEN and Elizabeth McKINLAY, and his wife, Mary Stuart BLAIR, daughter of William BLAIR and Mary BANNATYE. They were married in Rothsey. Samuel had a long career at sea and brought his family to Australia on the "Harriet" in 1858. Janet Trudgeon

I have an ancestor, Rev. Archibald Campbell, who came to Virginia with his brother, Alexander, around 1740. Archibald's parents were Archibald Campbell of Kirnan and Margaret Stewart of Ascog, Bute. Alexander Campbell went back to Scotland around the time of the Revolution and was the father of the poet, Thomas Campbell. Margaret Stewart of Ascog, had a second husband, John MacArthur, who took the name MacArthur Stewart. When Margaret and John died Frederick Stewart Campbell, the oldest male grandchild of Archibald Campbell, now of Virginia, went to Bute to claim the Stewart estate of Ascog. Frederick changed his name to Frederick Stewart Campbell Stewart and became a British citizen in order to inherit, but many court cases were involved because he wanted to sell the estate. The poet, Thomas Campbell was one of the many who felt that they had a rightful claim on the estate. Frederick died in France in 1827 without issue and his younger brother, Ferdinand Stewart Campbell St! ewart inherited the claim and was able to push it through. I believe that he was able to sell the estate. He died in Philadelphia in 1854. I have ordered copies of pertinent manuscripts from the University of Glasgow, but I could use some advice on what to do next. I don't know the physical location of this estate and who owns it now. I have not figured out the connection of Margaret Stewrt to THE Stewarts. Any help and/or advice would be appreciated. Ed Withers, Valley Forge PA, USA --------------------------------- Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! SiteBuilder - Free, easy-to-use web site design software

Just a short note to let you know there is a problem with the submission form (again). I'm working on it and hope to have it back up and running in the next day or so. Cheers Sue

Irene & Edward Thanks for your help on my Archibald Sutherland & family. I know Daniel was born in Barony?? and Archibald Snr was born in Greenock West. Henry & Robert both died in their teens. I have Archibald Snr's death as age 43 in 1859 and he died in Vaughan?? Do you know where that is? Regards Karen

In a message dated 08/09/2003 05:30:57 GMT Standard Time, rocks@iprimus.com.au writes: > I'm new to this list and hoping for some help with my > Partner's family research. I am looking for any information > on: > > Archibald Sutherland born Bute Scotland approximately > 1849. > > Parents were Archibald Sutherland and Mary Ferguson > married in Barony Scotland 28/02/1837. > > I have found one brother, Daniel Ferguson Sutherland born > 18/2/1838 in Barony. > > Daniel must have come to Australia with his brother > because he is a witness to Archibald's marriage to Louisa > Borgdorf in Victoria in 1867. > > If anyone could give me any information about the > Sutherlands I would be most grateful Hi Karen In the 1851 census index I found in rothesay ED T15 page 10 Archibald 3, Archibald 37 Daniel 13 Henry 11 Robert 6 Robert Archibald senior and Daniel are all marked as born outside Bute. No sign of Mary. Irene

Hi Listers, I have now found one of my Wrights to have married into the Todd/Tod Family. Elisabeth Wright married Thomas Todd on 6 November 1849 in either Rothesay or Kingarth. Her father was Robert Wright & Helen Thom (I have that family) His father was a Matthew Todd. I don't have any other info for Thomas I have checked the 1841 census but no Todd or Tod in sight. They had some children in Ayr so the family could have come from there also. The interesting thing about this family is that either Elisabeth and Thomas Todd and/or their children or some of their children immigrated to New Zealand also pre 1881 and one of them or their child was the father of Reginald Stephen Garfield Todd, born Invercargill, NZ in 1908. "SIR Garfield Todd, was the former Prime Minister of Southern Rhodesia (now Zimbabwe) whose commitment to African advancement exasperated his successors in the former British colony. He was locked up twice by Ian Smith's government for supporting black majority rule. Yet later, after being created a senator by President Robert Mugabe in 1980. He was knighted by Britain's Queen Elizabeth in 1989, with Mugabe's approval, at the behest of the New Zealand Government." I remember my father talking about him when I was much younger and only now have I finally found the connection for myself! I'd love to hear from anyone interested in the Todd/Tod name. Many thanks to all, Liz Larsen Coffs Harbour Australia

Hi I'm new to this list and hoping for some help with my Partner's family research. I am looking for any information on: Archibald Sutherland born Bute Scotland approximately 1849. Parents were Archibald Sutherland and Mary Ferguson married in Barony Scotland 28/02/1837. I have found one brother, Daniel Ferguson Sutherland born 18/2/1838 in Barony. Daniel must have come to Australia with his brother because he is a witness to Archibald's marriage to Louisa Borgdorf in Victoria in 1867. If anyone could give me any information about the Sutherlands I would be most grateful. Regards Karen Ipswich Queensland Australia

Hi All, Just to let you know that the final piece of the 1841 census (North Bute) is now on-line so the whole county is now available at: http://freecen.rootsweb.com Just a point about searching the database. Because it is an "as-is" transcription and because some of the spelling by the enumerators varies somewhat, you may need to use broader search criteria than one might expect. As an example, it may be best to use an initial for the forename as "Catherine" will not find the variants "Cathrin, Catharine, Cathn" etc. Also, work on the 1851 census is about to get underway so if there is anyone interested in taking on some of the transcription, I would be delighted to hear from you. Just drop me a line and I'll send you on the details. Regards, Bill

No new subscribers this week, but welcome back to 'blacknus' and to Jean Reynolds. If you haven't already contributed, we hope to hear from you soon. Not sure how universal the concept of 'Father's Day' on the first Sunday in September is, but to all father's on the list - have a happy day. ****** ****** ****** Apologies for the e-mail "Join JNB Web Promotion search engine optimization (SEO) Forum" which slipped through - the perpetrator has been put on the reject list. ****** ****** ****** Something which is not spam - from the owner of the "UK Schools History Website" ... "Hi Everyone Well it's that time of year again, when the weather is cooling down, the children have gone back to school and I get to do some long overdue work on the UK Schools History Website. Can I ask that any of you that have been snapping away with your cameras during our wonderful summer just take a minute to recall any shots of school buildings that may have crept in to your pictures :-) Seriously, if any of you still have photographs or information regarding any schools in the UK that you would like me to include on the site then now is the time to get them off to me. There are over 1500 schools on the site now, but this number can only increase with your help. If you have any questions or comments regarding schools or the website, please don't hesitate to contact me. Kind Regards Kim http://chrisb.4ce.co.uk/schools_site UK Schools History Website" ****** ****** ****** Feel free to join in and present your own items. Peter Cook cookfmly@bigpond.com List maintainer and Co-host with Barbara < babrown12@optonline.net > of the ButeshireGenWeb mailing list.

This is a Message Board Post that is gatewayed to this mailing list. Surnames: Murray Classification: Query Message Board URL: http://boards.ancestry.com/mbexec/msg/rw/SeC.2ACI/0.1.1.1.1.1 Message Board Post: Thank you.Yes I have looked at that but sadly no Murrays to be found,perhaps the family left earlier

This is a Message Board Post that is gatewayed to this mailing list. Classification: Query Message Board URL: http://boards.ancestry.com/mbexec/msg/rw/SeC.2ACI/0.1.1.1.1 Message Board Post: FreeCEN has a search website for the 1841 Kingarth census. http://freecen.rootsweb.com/cgi/search.pl All of Bute save North Bute parish is currently available. This last bit should be on shortly. /cheers Pat

Just to let you know that in Canada and probably in the U.S., Fathers day is the third Sunday in June, and Mothers day is the third Sunday in May. Heather ----- Original Message ----- From: "Peter Cook" <cookfmly@bigpond.com> To: <ButeshireGenWeb-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Saturday, September 06, 2003 9:45 PM Subject: [BUT] Sunday morning musings #213 > No new subscribers this week, but welcome back to 'blacknus' and to > Jean Reynolds. > > If you haven't already contributed, we hope to hear from you soon. > > Not sure how universal the concept of 'Father's Day' on the first > Sunday in September is, but to all father's on the list - have a happy > day. > > ****** ****** ****** > > Apologies for the e-mail > "Join JNB Web Promotion search engine optimization (SEO) Forum" > which slipped through - the perpetrator has been put on the reject > list. > > ****** ****** ****** > > Something which is not spam - from the owner of the "UK Schools > History Website" ... > > "Hi Everyone > Well it's that time of year again, when the weather is cooling down, > the children have gone back to school and I get to do some long > overdue work on the UK Schools History Website. Can I ask that any of > you that have been snapping away with your cameras during our > wonderful summer just take a minute to recall any shots of school > buildings that may have crept in to your pictures :-) > > Seriously, if any of you still have photographs or information > regarding any schools in the UK that you would like me to include on > the site then now is the time to get them off to me. > > There are over 1500 schools on the site now, but this number can only > increase with your help. > > If you have any questions or comments regarding schools or the > website, please don't hesitate to contact me. > > Kind Regards > > Kim > http://chrisb.4ce.co.uk/schools_site UK Schools History Website" > > ****** ****** ****** > > Feel free to join in and present your own items. > > Peter Cook cookfmly@bigpond.com > List maintainer and Co-host with Barbara < babrown12@optonline.net > > of the ButeshireGenWeb mailing list. > > > ==== ButeshireGenWeb Mailing List ==== > *********************************************************************** > For Websites or WebPages of Buteshire GenWeb subscribers see > http://www.rootsweb.com/~sctbutes/homepage.htm >

Join JNB Web Promotion search engine optimization (SEO) Forum For the free and open discussion of all search engine optimization techniques and methods, search engine optimization, web design and much more ... Feel free to ask, feel free to help! Sign up and be part of this growing community You get help from JNB Web Promotion SEO team Learn everything about great web development, web promotion, email marketing, reply to other questions,what is PageRank and much more at: http://www.jnbwebpromotion.com/forum/index.php A service from: JNB WEBPROMOTION - For more and better visitors from search engines with “No cure, No Pay” guarantee. We also offer Opt-in Email marketing Campaigns, IT Outsourcing and Web development at low cost. http://www.jnbwebpromotion.com Email: info@jnbwebpromotion.com

This is a Message Board Post that is gatewayed to this mailing list. Surnames: murray Classification: Query Message Board URL: http://boards.ancestry.com/mbexec/msg/rw/SeC.2ACI/0.1.1.1 Message Board Post: No I haven't but I will.Thanks for the tip!

This is a Message Board Post that is gatewayed to this mailing list. Classification: Query Message Board URL: http://boards.ancestry.com/mbexec/msg/an/SeC.2ACI/0.1.1 Message Board Post: Have you searched the 1841 census For Kingarth, Bute see message posted by Terry Sheppard on 23 April 2002

This is a Message Board Post that is gatewayed to this mailing list. Surnames: MURRAY Classification: Query Message Board URL: http://boards.ancestry.com/mbexec/msg/rw/SeC.2ACI/0.1 Message Board Post: LOOKING FOR WILLIAM MURRAYLooking for any information about my g.g.grandfather's family ,He was born in KINGARTH ,Isle of Bute ,in 1825 .By the age of 56 he was living in Walker,Newcastle on Tyne.Thank you

Welcome to Janet Trudgeon who has joined this week and welcome back to Mary Hamilton. If you haven't already contributed, we hope to hear from you soon. ****** ****** ****** It still makes me pause for thought each week as I send out these musings, to see my copy from the list come flying back in within literally seconds - from down-under to the US, through the RootsWeb system, and back down-under in the time it takes my ISP to switch from processing my Outbox to processing my Inbox. ****** ****** ****** In response to my footnote on the last Virus Warning... > As always, practice safe e-mail habits - even those of us who are > reasonably experienced still get caught ! Ian Murray wrote ... "As an IT professional with 10+ years of experience, I took delivery of a new laptop last week. I immediately set about installing the software that I would need on it. So I virus-checked the machine from a CD and first installed an anti-virus program and a firewall program. Next I connected it to the internet and downloaded the latest virus signatures and firewall updates. During that first connection I caught a nasty worm virus. I had been on the internet for 30 minutes, and had not yet used a web browser (Internet Explorer) or an e-mail program." ****** ****** ****** Feel free to join in and present your own items. Peter Cook cookfmly@bigpond.com List maintainer and Co-host with Barbara < babrown12@optonline.net > of the ButeshireGenWeb mailing list.

I have just updated Marriage and Burials - http://www.sctbdm.com The site now holds: 8,266 - Births 5,725 - Deaths 4,506 - Marriages 2,711 - Baptisms 296 - Burials 1,057 - Banns 22,561 records in total. Cheers Sue