just a few comments.... of course (as one allied with Clan Campbell), I must defend the comment re: the Clan Campbell being considered traitors for supporting the King of England. "Traitor" and "Patriot" are terms that entirely depend upon your perspective and we should remember that Gen. George Washington was a traitor to the crown by the King's view and an American patriot by ours. IMHO - introduction of the debate of whether the Clan Campbell is/was nongrata persona isn't that material to discusion of whether Burns (and var sp.) should be considered a Sept of the Clan. Even today - the opinions of many regarding allegiance to the Clan is mixed. It's important to note too that the surname Campbell is one of great frequency -- this meaning nothing more than these folks had many many children AND they didn't change their name often, even after they migrated. We must remember that the clan order is much older than Mr. Robbie Burnes -- having been in place well before the Jacobite Rebellion. We should also remember that this system was more geographic than patronymic. It is simply a matter that certain families were the leading families of a particular geographic area as opposed to the idea that people all over Scotland with the name McDonald followed a particular clan chief. Or in other words, the McDonalds were the leading family in a certain area (as land owners, military leaders, and employers) and therefor those who lived there were allied to Clan McDonald. That many of these folks intermarried and created kinship bonds goes without explaining. These Clan allegiances were maintained by economic need as well as bonds of blood. In this way, many people with varying surnames might come to live within the domain of a particular clan while we don't now consider that surname to be a related clan sept. Let's say for example that a man named Isaac Burns (who lived his early life in Argyl) married a woman named Katherine Stewart and that Katherine's people were much better off than Isaac's (likely the case). He might (probably would) decide to reside amongst and give his loyalty to the Clan Stewart. His children would be Burns' and they would likely marry within Clan Stewart as well. Of course, he wouldn't forget his family and friends up in Argyl either -- he'd likely serve as a connection between the two clans. This is just an example but, you can see how likely it is that any person with any surname might well give allegiance to any clan -- even the Clan Campbell. And also how allegiances between different clan families might be built. Now, just as here in America -- there are certain names that we just find with greater frequency in a certain location than in others. In Cherokee County South Carolina, we find the surname LITTLEJOHN with incredible frequency for a community so small. We can say truthfully that "many Littlejohns live (and have lived) in Cherokee County. We can't say though that "all Littlejohns are from Cherokee County" any more than we can say that all Burns families were loyal to Clan Campbell or that all Turner families were loyal to Clan Lamont. So it is with clan names and septs of clans. We can't even say that all Campbells were loyal to Clan Campbell -- clearly some were not. And in the example given of the clans' support of the Crown -- many were not and these elected to give their allegiance elsewhere. We might argue too -- that those who decided to come to America were not as loyal to the Clan as they were to their immediate family. Even so, many of these folks did migrate as groups and they did maintain the same systems of community leadership that goes on even today (ie: what we call "clanish" communities). All said, if your desire is to affiliate with your own Scots heritage or to simply affiliate with a clan because your heart is there (whether you claim Scots heritage or not) -- then by all means explore the present clan system and join any you wish whose requirements you meet. Some are more strict in membership than others -- some welcome anyone. Easiest to explore are those which are affiliated with your patronymic surname but you are not restricted to that exploration. There are those who argue that the clan system is/was matronymic and therefor your present surname has little bearing. Many argue that affiliation with a clan is a matter of personal choice and has little to do with your name at all. Of course, if your name is John Campbell and you intend to affiliate with Clan McDonald, you may have to be prepared to discuss the events at Glencoe in 1692 very often. If your motivation is simply to own and wear the plaid then consider too the many geographic plaids out there as well. There is the United States of America tartan as well as the American Bicentenial tartan (very attractive) which are appropriate for all of us Americans. There are general use plaids as well. Many people wear the Queens colors out of respect for her (Royal Stewart) though some frown on that. Tradition holds that Hunting Stewart is generally accepted for public wear while Royal Stewart is not. In any case, Balmoral shouldn't be worn without permission of the Queen. It's generally ill advised to wear a regimental plaid unless you were a member of that regiment but keep in mind that several regimental plaids are also clan tartans (42nd Regiment, Black Watch common plaid is a dark Campbell tartan). If you decide to wear a tartan to highland games or the such then be sure you know what you are wearing and can answer questions about it. Reading the tartan is more than the colors involved -- it has to do with the "set" - the way the lines are woven. I would caution against wearing Clan KMart and Clan WalMart (the plaid materials commonly sold in these stores) unless it's simply a fashion statement. :-) Just a few thoughts to consider; C.R. Turner desc. James Burns and Penelope Pharr desc. Squire Bentley Campbell and Vashti Cas Queen -----Original Message----- From: Chris Burns [mailto:cjburns1@optushome.com.au] Sent: Monday, June 23, 2003 1:04 AM To: BURNS-L@rootsweb.com Subject: Re: [BURNS] BURNS TARTAN The link between the Campbell's and the Burns, Burnes, Burnett and so on is a little thin. It seems to go back to Robbie Burns who was friendly with a Campbell family. The spelling of (Robbie) Burns from Burness to Burnes was just to suit local dialects. They were all the same people. You have to remember that in the early 1800s (and even up to when I was a little kid) the Campbell's were considered traitors by the Scottish because 50% of them had fought with the English against the Scots. <snip>