Hello, Thomas, nice to meet a new cousin on line. I will add info on your family to the data base, but as always, private info on living individuals (other than the relationships), will be excluded, though I will keep it one my computer data base. I would be happy to furnish you with a GEDCOM file if you would like, so you won't have to cut and paste from what is available on line as the Detling Family Extended (http://www.gencircles.com/users/ddetling/1). I have included some notes below for your help, and will be glad to work with you on this. I am also copying some other folks who are related, as I'm not sure if you know them. I've added you to the free Bunker-L mailing list at rootsweb so you can see what others might have to say if they don't reply directly. I would like the name and e-mail address of your cousin "Beth" as I don't believe we have corresponded. Your name was given to me by Barbara Gunvaldsen of the Fairfield (Maine) Historical Society. If she is the Beth you refer to, then I have corresponded with her. My information on the descendents of Joshua Williams comes from others who have researched this family. These include Janet Williams Hinkley (who descends from Samuel A. Williams, Jr.) and David Rust, along with other cousins Dan Earl, Bob Forrest and Nancy Porter (who descends from Sarah Williams). Also Todd McVay, and more recently, I have been in contact with Randy and Alice Williams Schroder; Alice is another descendent of Joshua, and they furnished me with a complete copy of Donald Ward Williams manuscript. I had only a reference to it from correspondence with Janet Hinkley more than 15 years ago, so was pleased to see the complete copy. I agree that Donald didn't include as much documentation as would be desirable. Dan, Bob and I descend from another of Samuel and Sobriety Bunker Williams' children, Elizabeth who married Nathaniel Winslow. I have information on many of the descendents, some though are not well documented. I am currently the webmaster for the Bunker Family Association. Unfortunately, like many surname societies, the BFA until recently did not keep data on the descendents of female family members, but by exchanging info with others, we have built up an extensive data base which is available through my web site. I will admit, though, that primary documentation on many of these families is lacking; we try to include where we can but as you can tell it is a monumental challenge (especially for me as I am not related directly). I have some many lines in this with many mysteries still that I am concentrating on the direct lines and haven't spend so much time on the ancillary ones (relying on others to furnish details as well). I will cite some information in my comments below. Please review, and let's keep in touch. _____ From: Thomas Lloyd [mailto:t_lloyd8888@msn.com] Sent: Friday, January 02, 2004 6:37 AM To: ddetling@greencity.org Subject: Williams Family Info Mr. Detling: Apparently, you are the king pin in the genealogy of the Williams clan. I've attached a file which is for my daughter's DAR application. Which will note that Sobriety Bunker is the wife of the "patriot" Samuel Bunker. I think you meant to say Samuel Williams here; and I'm hardly the "king pin" of anything. I just have been working on this family for many years, but there are many others who've done likewise. I'm copying my research contacts and other cousins; people should feel free to chime in if they can help in any way. I'm trying to find documentation that will connect Samuel Bunker to one of his sons: Joshua Williams. Then documentation that connects Joshua Williams to his son Joseph Philbrick Williams. I have - I think - sufficient documentation tying Joseph Williams to his son Ward Spooner Willaims. The DAR are rather stringent in their requirements. My information on Joshua and his descendents comes from Donald Ward Williams' work which you have cited below. I believe Donald Ward Williams did submit some of this information in support of an application to the Sons of the American Revolution, and you might try to find out whether that was approved (as I believe it was). I don't know if the DAR and SAR have similar requirements for documentation, or whether they have revised them to require more recent applicants to document the ancestral families more completely. That wouldn't surprise me, but it hardly seems fair to conclude that Donald Ward Williams was eligible for SAR membership based on his work, and then to conclude that one of his descendents (your daughter) could not be a DAR member even if the relationship between your daughter and Donald Ward Willams can be more completely documented but his ancestry remains less well documented. I guess that is part of the reason I have never pursued this myself, though my ancestral lines on both my mother's and father's family can be traced back (and reasonably documented) to the earliest days of this country including the settling at Plymouth, Massachusetts; the founding of Fort Orange, New York; and the exploration and settling of Maine. So-called patriotic ancestry does not grant any additional right to citizenship nor extend civility except in the eye of the beholder. I have had absolutely no success in this endeavor. I also have my great uncle Don Williams genealogy research that goes back to Williams Williams of 1633. ... Do not despair; all genealogy is a work in progress. While I have reviewed the material in Donald Ward Williams work back to William Williams, I don't think that the parentage of our ancestor Samuel Williams (married to Sobriety) has been clearly identified, and I don't show it in my data. Now, turning to your DAR introductory document, you state in the first paragraph under Samuel Williams that his wife Sobriety was "related to the Bunkers of Charlestown, Mass." This is not a correct statement. There are three main Bunker branches: the Dover branch from Durham, New Hampshire; the Charlestown Branch of Bunker Hill, Massachusetts; and the Topsfield Branch from Nantucket, Massachusetts. Many allied branches, some not connected to the three main branches, have been identified, including families in Canada, New Zealand, Great Britain, Australia and Germany, and Puerto Rico. For most of the 20th Century, it was commonly believed the James (Sobriety's ancestor) was related to the two George Bunkers who are the ancestors of the Nantucket and Charlestown branches of the Bunker families in America. The Bunker Family Association recently begun a DNA project, and based on DNA tests to date, the Devon Bunkers are in no way related to the Bedfordshire Bunkers. In America, this means that James of Dover was not related to the two Georges who came to America. I have noted the comment in the National Archives about the paucity of data on the family of Samuel Williams--none! But research has revealed that there are many connections between the Williams families and the Philbricks (I suggest you check the Philbrick data at http://homepages.rootsweb.com/~nvjack/fylbrigg/vitals.htm). Joshua married two Philbrick daughters, and sister Hannah married their brother Stephen Philbrick. Sister Sarah married Reuben Wilbur. I note that you refer to the 1800 Census data as showing the elder Samuel with wife and six children in the area now called Vienna, Maine. By 1800, Samuel Williams, Jr. -- the Rev. Samuel Williams, would have been 21 (and probably not living with his parents. He married in October 1800 to Mary Philbrick (another Philbrick sister) in Readfield/Mt. Vernon, Maine.Your manuscript does not refer to to Samuel A. Williams Jr., perhaps inadvertently. Donald Ward Williams refers to the first born child of Samuel and Sobriety Williams as Rev. Samuel, b. November 25, 1772. I have disputed this birth date in my data base: "Most of the original work documenting details about the Rev. Samuel Williams Jr. was done by Janet Williams Hinkley of Cambridge, Ohio, and furnished to Douglas Detling. Until January 1997, Mrs. Hinkley was "still not sure" her ancestor, the Rev. Mr. Williams, was the son of Samuel and Sobriety Bunker Williams. Given the research she has completed, and in the absence of any contravening information that the Rev. Mr. Williams was another kind of relative, Douglas Detling's conclusion is that he was the first born son of Samuel and Sobriety Williams. "In a January 7, 1997 letter to Douglas Detling, Janet wrote: "I now share your belief that Rev. Samuel Williams Jr. is indeed the first born son of Samuel and Sobriety." The Samuel Williams/Mary Philbrick family structure is described in town records (copy in possession of Douglas Detling). The handwriting in these town records is poor, and the birth date shown is likely to be incorrect. Many have assumed a birth year of 1782. In addition to a family history giving the younger Samuel Williams' birth as 1779 or 1780, the 1850 Census of Washington County, Pennsylvania gives Samuel Williams' age as 71, and by the 1880 Census, Jonathan Williams gives his father's place of birth as New Hampshire. Age 71 in 1850 would have Samuel Williams born in 1779, which is the date used by Janet Hinkley and Douglas Detling (letter of March 20, 1996 from Janet Hinkley to Douglas Detling). "The Rev. Mr. Williams was the first settled minister of Avon, Maine. Avon Town Records, Maine State Archives, Kennebec County., Maine, Deed Book 9, page 497. He was ordained as a minister on January 20, 1805 in Avon, Maine. Religious Magazine, Short History of the Church of Christ, Joh n Buzzell, American Periodical Series, 1800-1825. The Rev. Mr. Williams sold his property in Vienna in 1806, Kennebec County, Maine Deed Book 9, page 8. His listed occupation was cordwainer, and he was listed as a resident of Avon, Maine. He was hired by the town of Phillips, Maine in Oc tober 1813. Albert Pease History of Phillips, Maine, quoted from minutes of town meeting. In March and June 1817, the Rev. Mr. Williams sold his property in the town of Phillips. Somerset County, Maine Deed Books 3&4, 1811-1819, Vol 3, pages 446-447. Phillips is now in Franklin County. "Along with Samuel and Sobriety Williams and John Williams, the Rev. Mr. Williams visited Joshua Williams, then living in New Portland, Franklin Co., Maine, before leaving for Ohio, via Pennsylvania, according to family recollections recorded by descendant Donald Ward Williams. In the fall of 1817, the Rev. Mr. Williams relinquished his plan to go to Ohio. He established the first Free Will Baptist Church in the area of Cookstown, now Fayette City, Pennsylvania. By 1824, this church had 200 members and other churches organized. See Biography of the Rev. Samuel Williams from Free Baptist Cyclopaidia by Rev. G. A. Burgess, A.M., and Rev. J. T. Ward , A.M., Free Baptist Cyclopaidia Co., 1889. "In 1827, he bought a farm in the old East Pike Run Township of Washingto n Co., Pennsylvania, where he remained until his death in early 1859. His will was probated May 3, 1859. He paid taxes from 1827-1859, after which his heirs were taxed, according to Washington County, Pennsylvania deeds. No tombstone or death record was found by Janet Hinkley. The family is described in Janet Hinkley's "Elder Samuel Williams: The 'Mad Yankee' of Washington County, Pennsylvania," Southwestern Pennsylvania genealogy m agazine "Keyhole" (October 1991)." Well, this should be enough to prompt some exchange of information, if nothing else. Cousin Doug Douglas G. Detling (ddetling@greencity.org) 725 Royal Ave. #81, Medford, OR 97504-6449 (541) 301-1025 . eFax (815) 366-9121