Helo List, this note may be of help John Shearer From: "John K Shearer" <jk_shearer@email.msn.com> To: <JeanSm@aol.com>, <BRUCE-L@rootsweb.com> Subject: Re: Robert The Bruce Date: Sun, 19 Sep 1999 14:23:04 +0100 Good Morning Jean, This note updates, integrates and comments on the last two. I am not an expert. I began researching BRUCE a few months ago because my grandson appears to be a descendant of that family, courtesy of his other grandparents. The work done to date has been preliminary. I went to the library of the Society of Genealogists in London an found a family tree of the Earls of Elgin which seemed to be well researched and I extracted the relevant information. I then compared this with the most official looking tomes in the Mitchell Library in Glasgow and I found complete agreement where they covered the same ground. The most authoritative looking text is"The Dictionary of National Biography of Scotland - Oxford University Press, 1917." My primary search was for the link to my grandsons tree and this came with a Sir Robert Bruce who was the son of King Robert's uncle but is in fact believed to have been the Robert's illegitimate son. Since the illegitimate sons of kings were very respectable 700 years ago I need to research this story but it does not affect the lineage. Moving back through time, King Robert's father Robert Bruce, Lord Annandale married The Countess of Carrick and their son Robert became Earl of Carrick, and King of Scotland. This gentleman was a crusader who lived abroad and was a contemporary of Edward I of England. I wonder if he was a Templar? There are rumours that the Templars helped his son become King of Scotland. King Robert's grandfather Robert Bruce, Lord Annandale (1210-1295) was a competitor for the Scottish throne when Alexander III was killed. He married Isobel de Clare, daughter of Gilbert Earl of Gloucester. I have two other sons, Barnard Bruce and Sir John Bruce the uncle we have already discussed. He lived through a period of weak or disinterested English kings and some reasonably good Scottish kings. King Robert's great grandfather Robert Bruce, Lord Annandale, married a daughter of the Earl of Huntingdon, the grandson of a Scottish king. Her name may have been Isobel, I will check my notes. I found no record of a Lady Beckwith Bruce or a zame Beckwith Bruce but I was not looking for daughters. King Robert's gg grandfather was William Bruce, Lord of Annandale, who was probably named for his grandsire William the Lion, King of Scotland. He may have married a Christina I will check my notes. King Robert's ggg grandfather was Robert de Bruce, Lord of Annandale, who married Isobel the daughter of William the Lion. King Robert's gggg grandfather was a younger son, Robert de Brus (? - 1196) who married the heiress (Euphemia??) of the Lord of Annandale, and brought the Bruce name to Scotland.. His elder brother was Adam de Brus (? - .1172) who inherited the Barony of Skelton in Yorkshire. According to another internet correspondent Adam married Ivetta, daughter of William de Arches, Widow of R. de Flamville (Their descendants are discussed in a postscript to this email. A Bruce is believed to have come to Scotland with David I when he returned from the Anglo-Norman Court of Henry I. This could have been the Robert above but he must have lived to a very great age if he died in 1192. I wonder if his father , discussed bellow came, and was partly rewarded by an eligible marriage for his younger son. King Robert's ggggg grandfather was Robert de Brus (? - 1141). I have seen references to his marrying a daughter of Pagnel (Paynell) on the Internet but not elsewhere as yet. This reference was as follows: "Robert de Brus came into England with the Conqueror and had by conquest the Lordships of Skelton, Marske, Uplyum, Brotton, Danby, Leventon, Yarm and in 1141 he married Agnes, the daughter of Fulke Paynell and gained the manors of Carleton and Balme. The author of this note has someone born before 1046 marrying in 1141 so he has missed out one or two generations and his claim that the same hero took these lands by conquest is also suspect. William did operate a scorched earth policy in Yorkshire and substantially culled the descendants of his Viking cousins threfore, he probably gave the manors to de Brus or arranged for him to marry an available heiress. All heiresses were in the kings gift. I know Yarm it is a beautiful village a short drive from Stockton and Darlington. Before this matters are a little vague. I am not clear on Adam (?), Robert's gggggg grandfather, who married a Ramsay. Again I think someone mentioned this on the internet but could not provide a source. You said "Some sources skip Adam Bruce (3rd. gen.)who married Emma Ramsay ". Latter Day Saints ancestral files accept individual interpretations which do not have to be verified. However, if the dates above are correct we do need someone in this space and it makes sense that he had a grandson called Adam (naming tradition). Robert de Brus (1030 - 1094), Robert's ggggggg grandfather, landed with William the Conqueror in 1066. He may have married a St. Clair, I will check my notes. Emma de Bretagne is also a possibility but this makes the same marriage in a previous generation unlikely. If we move to Robert's gggggggg grandfather things become a little fuzzy and contentious Robert de Brusse who married ? de Brittnay is a possibility but needs checking. Regards John Shearer Postscript. The Lords of Skelton >>Adam de Brus, the second (ob.1180)= ????? >> >>Peter de Brus, the first of that name. = Agnes, Daughter of Stephen, >>Earl of Albemarle, widow of W de Romara, Earl of Lincoln. >>Isabella de Brus = Sir Henry de Percy, from whom descended the Percies, >>Earls of Northumberland. >> >>Peter de Brus, the Second (ob.1240) = Helewife, Daughter of Gilbert de >>Lancaster Baron of Kendal. >> >>Peter de Brus, the Third = Hillaria, Daughter of Lord Malo-lacu, or >>Mauley >> >>Peter de Brus, the Fourth died unmarried 1271, leaving his sisters his >>Heirs >>(1) Agnes = Walter de Fauconberge, had Skelton, Marske, & c. >>(2) Lucy = Marmaduke de Thweng, had Danby, Brotton and Yarm >>(3) Margaret = Robert de Roffe Lord of Werke, had Kendal, &c. >>(4) Ladrina = Sir John de Bella-aqua or Bellew, had Carleton in >>Balme,&c. >> >>This was the last of this line of Brus (Bruce) as it had died out with >>Peter de Brus in the year 1271 and as his sisters had married into >>different lines >> >> -----Original Message----- From: JeanSm@aol.com <JeanSm@aol.com> To: BRUCE-L@rootsweb.com <BRUCE-L@rootsweb.com> Date: 18 September 1999 19:21 Subject: Robert The Bruce >I am writing a book and one Chapter will be on BRUCE. I copy below the >sources I think are best. The biggest differences in these sources has to do >with William Bruce who m. Christina. 3 sources have him the "brother" of >Robert who m. Isobel (daug. of Wm. The Lion) and the Magna Carta Book has him >the "son" of that Robert. Please reply with your judgement on this complete >chart. > >Robert Bruce (magna Carta Book) and Robert Bruce by Scott, and Funk & Wagnall >Encyclopedia (1996) were the combination of sources used for comparison of >early generations in my book. A number below denotes descending generations. > Ten generations are noted under the title THIS BOOK (by Jean Smallwood). >Read columns downward. > > > >THIS BOOK Robert Bruce Robert Bruce >Encylopedia > (Magna Carta Book) by Scott > >1 Robert de Brusse 1 Robert de Brusse 1 grandfather > m. de Brittnay m. de Brittnay > HAD SON >2 Robert I 2 Robert m. St. Clair 2 Son unnamed 1 >Robert > d.1094-to England to Eng.with > d.1094 to Eng >Wm. the Conqueror Wm. the Conqueror >Wm/Conquer > HAD SON >3 Adam m. Ramsay 3 Adam m.Ramsay 3 Adam > HAD SON >4 Robert II-d. 1141 4 Robert -d. 1141 m. 4 Robert d. 1141 2 >Robert II > m. Pagnel (Paynell) Pagnel(Paynell) > HAD SONS >5 Adam Bruce d.1172 5 Adam Bruce > &Robert III 5 Robert m. Euphemia &Robert-d. 1196 3 >Robert III > d. 1196 > Robert HAD SONS HAD SONS >HAD SONS >6 Robert IV m. Isobel 6 Robert m. Isobel 6 Robert Bruce >4Robert IV > d/o Wm. The Lion > AND AND > AND > William Bruce 7William William Bruce > William Bruce > m. Christina-had daug. m.Christiana >7 Lady Dame Bruce > AND > Robert V-d. 1245 8Robert d 1245 7Robert-d. 1245 5 >Robert V > m.Isobel m. Isobel > HAD SON >8 Robert VI 9 Robert 1210-1295 8 Robert d. >1295 6Robert VI > "Competitor" m.De Clare m. De Clare > HAD SON >9 Robert VII b.1243 10 Robert 9 Robert > 7Robert VII > m. Carrick m. Carrick m. Carrick > HAD SON >10 King Robert 11 King Robert 10King Robert > 8King Robert > of Scotland > >Note-some sources (Familytreemaker-WFT-internet) say Robert Bruce (b.1030) m. >Emma de Bretagne > not St.Clair (2nd.gen.above)and had son Robert, d. 1141 (4th gen. above). >Many of these list Lady Bruce. >Some sources skip Adam Bruce (3rd. gen.)who m. Emma Ramsay,as does the >Encyclopedia above. >Latter Day Saints files list Robert m. Brittnay (1st gen) and record that he >had son Adam. who m. Ramsay. > >For Robert Bruce(Signers of Magna Carta,1215)-see internet Clan Bruce >www.tartans.com/clans/bruce.html >See Source Chart for Lady Dame Beckwith Bruce. In the 3 sources above, only >selected children are listed. >Some early genealogies list only sons. Daughters were not always listed. >Many later genealogies show Lady Dame Beckwith Bruce, the connection for this >book. >Thank you, Jean Smallwood (jeansm@aol.com) > > >==== BRUCE Mailing List ==== > Have you considered joining the Rootsweb Genealogical Data > Cooperative? > http://www.rootsweb.com/ > > > ==== BRUCE Mailing List ==== The Internet Mailing List for BRUCE researchers To unsubscribe send an e-mail to bruce-l-request@rootsweb.com with 'UNSUBSCRIBE' as the only text in the message If you get the digest version send an e-mail to bruce-d-request@rootsweb.com with 'UNSUBSCRIBE' as the only text in the message.