Hi, Rowland, >>The tartans are Scottish, and related English houses/families do not have them,<< Many thanks. That answers my question. Until I learn the origin of my Thomas/1 Bruce, I cannot use the tartan in any text about him, except as a possibility. Claudia, in snowy Massachusetts, U.S.A.

I realise I am working backwards through a lot of mail: I have been out of town for the week. The tartans are Scottish, and related English houses/families do not have them, but some English people wear them, especially the dress tartans. (Not the Prince of Wales, with the Royal Stewart tartan on many occasions, especially when he is in Scotland.) Rowland ----- Original Message ----- From: William Cridland <104260.2766@compuserve.com> To: <BRUCE-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Tuesday, February 27, 2001 8:23 AM Subject: Re: The BRUCE'S of England > Dear Rowland, > > >> The arms of the > Scottish Bruces and the Yorkshire Bruces are the same except for the > colours. The Scottish ones are red on gold and the Yorkshire ones blue on > silver.<< > > I am descended from Thomas 1/Bruce of Sudbury, Marlborough, > and Southborough, Massachusetts, U.S.A., and your message > caught my eye, as no-one has been able to determine > Thomas' origins, and many have tried. There is > great speculation that he was of English, rather than > Scottish origin. I have a sample of the Bruce tartan > material, and would love to claim it for my family! However, > as things are, I cannot. If the arms of the two Bruce lines > are nearly the same, I wonder if the tartan is exclusively > the property of the Scottish line. Without confirmation > of "my" Thomas' ancestry, of course, I still could not > make a claim on the tartan or the arms for Thomas. > Is there any way I could obtain a picture of these arms, perhaps > on line? I have been given to understand that British > coats-of-arms are given to an individual, and cannot > be claimed by the descendants. Is this so? Or are they > passed on down through the male line of descendants? > > Thank you for your posting. When I am able, I'll make > another search of the LDS IGI to see if there were any > "Thomas Bruces" from the Yorkshire area. There is > a Cleveland, in the state of Ohio here, by the way! > > Claudia Cridland > > > ==== BRUCE Mailing List ==== > The Internet Mailing List for BRUCE researchers > > To unsubscribe send an e-mail to bruce-l-request@rootsweb.com > with 'UNSUBSCRIBE' as the only text in the message > > If you get the digest version send an e-mail to bruce-d-request@rootsweb.com > with 'UNSUBSCRIBE' as the only text in the message. > > > >

I don't see why not, Linda. It's not the same as spamming. I'm sure the list owner would let you know if it were not acceptable. I have long been intrigued by the Bruce motto, FUIMUS. My Latin, such as it is, reads this as "We have been." It is an easy translation, but seems an odd motto. No one has explained any subtle second meaning to me over the 45 years I have wondered about it. Rowland BRUCE, Adelaide, South Australia. ----- Original Message ----- From: Scotlass <scotlass@nwlink.com> To: <BRUCE-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Tuesday, February 27, 2001 2:09 PM Subject: Crest site > I don't know if it is allowed to mention a site here. I was given a site > for crests, mottos, etc. from a member of the Scot-Royal list. If anyone > wants it, just ask, or tell me if it is okay to post it here. > Linda Bruce > > > ==== BRUCE Mailing List ==== > >

Yes, the Bruce tartan, not of ancient origin, it must be admitted, is the one you refer to, and the yellow one I think is the McLeod of McLeod dress tartan, not that I am in any way an expert. The Bruce had a younger brother, Edward, who was invited to be King of All Ireland in about 1320. I know nothing about any other Bruces in Ireland, sorry. Rowland BRUCE, Adelaide, South Australia. ----- Original Message ----- From: <WeasellBlossom@aol.com> To: <BRUCE-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Tuesday, February 27, 2001 3:12 PM Subject: Re: The BRUCE'S of England > > In a message dated 2/26/01 7:50:57, brucerp@senet.com.au writes: > > << The arms of the > > Scottish Bruces and the Yorkshire Bruces are the same except for the colours. > The Scottish ones are red on gold and the Yorkshire ones blue on silver. > > >> > > What about the Bruce tartan? I've seen it pictured as red background with > mostly green plaid, with thin lines of white and yellow, but another source > noted that the Bruce tartan was yellow, black and red (I thought that one was > McLeod). > > And does anyone know if the Irish Bruces were from either of these lines? > > Thanks > > Judy > > > ==== BRUCE Mailing List ==== > The Internet Mailing List for BRUCE researchers > > To unsubscribe send an e-mail to bruce-l-request@rootsweb.com > with 'UNSUBSCRIBE' as the only text in the message > > If you get the digest version send an e-mail to bruce-d-request@rootsweb.com > with 'UNSUBSCRIBE' as the only text in the message. > > > >

Hi I'm descended from the Scottish/English BRUCE's, and delurking on this list for the first time. As you have called for a roll-call, thought I would post my interest ­ although I am just at the very beginning of my search for my BRUCE line. My mother was née Hazel Audrey BRUCE b 9 May 1916, Birkenhead, Cheshire, England, d 10 May 1985, Norwich, England My gfather was Frederick William BRUCE b 2 April 1888, d 1957 My ggfather was Andrew BRUCE d1938, aged 80 approx, Montrose, Scotland Thought to have been illegitimate, Andrew was Borough Surveyor of Montrose and architect to the Earl of Berkeley at Berkeley Castle. That's about as much as I know as yet ­ as I'm only just embarking on tracing this line. Bruce PORTEOUS Porteous Research Project Aylsham, Norfolk, England --------------------------------------------------------- bruceporteous@freeuk.com Researching Bruce, Meredith, Porteous

DESCENDANTS OF GEORGE BRUCE: Generation No. 1 1. GEORGE BRUCE was born Abt. 1790, and died September 10, 1848 in Mercer Co., (now Lawrence Co.) PA; He is Buried at Harlansburg U.P. Cemetery, Scott Twp., Lawrence Co., PA. He married MIRIAM COX July 20, 1809 in Mercer Co. (now Lawrence Co.) in 1809, By James McCune, Justice of the Peace. (date of death and marriage from War of 1812 pension file). MIRIAM COX was born abt. 1790 in Virginia (per census records) and died August 5, 1878. (These are my GGGreat Grandparents). Children of George Bruce and Miriam Cox are: JOHN BRUCE, born 1815; died 1897 in Buried: Harlansburg Unity Baptist Church Cemetery. He married Ellen. HIRAM J. BRUCE, (See below) WILSON BRUCE, born 1823 in PA; died 1889 in Buried: Harlansburg Unity Baptist Church Cemetery. RILEY BRUCE, born May 31, 1826; died January 10, 1894 in Buried: Harlansburg Unity Baptist Church Cemetery. WILLIAM BRUCE, born Abt. 1832. MARIAM BRUCE, born Abt. 1834. Generation No. 2 HIRAM J. BRUCE (George1) was born February 14, 1818 in Scott Township, Lawrence Co., PA (Originally Mercer Co., PA), and died December 08, 1905 in PA; He is buried at Unity Baptist Cemetery in Harlansburg, PA. He married SARAH DUNNIVAN October 17, 1850 at her home, in Rich Hill, by Reverend Collins, (These are my GGreat Grandparents). (Sarah was the daughter of JAMES DUNNIVAN and MARGARET CARLON). Children of Hiram Bruce and Sarah Dunnivan are: GEORGE W. BRUCE, born Nov. 15, 1851; died Sept. 11, 1894. m. WHITE JAMES W. BRUCE, born December 13, 1853 in PA; died Jan. 24, 1930. HUTCHISON BRUCE, born January 06, 1856; died August 25, 1882 JOSEPH C. BRUCE, born Feb. 04, 1858 in PA; died Feb. 26, 1932 in Salem, Oregon; Buried IOOF Cemetery, Dallas, Polk Co., Oregon. JOHN A. BRUCE, born April 21, 1860; died January 26, 1938 in Los Angeles, CA?, married Mary Ellen Patterson. FANNIE L. BRUCE, born January 13, 1862; died June 19, 1933 in Buried: Unity Baptist Cemetery in Harlansburg, PA, married H.J. Richeal. MARGARET E. BRUCE, born Aug. 18, 1865; died Oct. 29, 1935. She married Edward Sperry March 18, 1898. ELIZABETH BRUCE, born 1866; died Bet. 1928 - 1930 in Oregon ISAIAH BRUCE, born May 30, 1868; died October 06, 1884 in Buried: Unity Baptist Cemetery in Harlansburg, PA. MIRIAM JANE 'JENNIE' BRUCE, born November 28, 1872 in Harlansburg, Pennsylvania; died March 06, 1964 in Portland, Multnomah Co., Oregon; Buried at Belle Passi Cem. Woodburn, OR. She married GEORGE RIDDLE ALLEN on November 30, 1892 in New Castle, Lawrence Co., PA. (these are my Great Grandparents) I would love to hear from anyone researching this family. I do have more information of some of these families and would be happy to share. Thanks, Lynn Mack Oregon mackfamily@earthlink.net

There is a wealth of information at www.Scotland.com information on Tartans, coats of arms and has other links to just about anything you want to know on Scotland including the language. Good luck and have fun. Donna

Below are book references by a certain author for those to read who wish to explore an alternate origin of the Royal Bruce line and the other great families of Scotland. - "Origins of Heraldry" (Beryl Platts; Procter Press, London 1980) - "Scottish Hazard", vol. 1 (Beryl Platts; Procter Press, London 1985) - "Scottish Hazard, vol. 2 (Beryl Platts; Procter Press, London 1990) These books are not in print to my knowledge but may be gotten through a used book dealer or inter-library loan as I did. Just to sum up very basically, these books explain through heraldry, land grants, etc. that the Bruces and other great families of Scotland are decended not from the Normans, but the great family houses of the Flemish nobility. Find and read these books for yourself and decide whether it is correct. Please, do not ask me to explain the books as I will not do it for you.

This would seem to be right in sentiment, but truncated in genertions. As stated, it is accepted that Robert de Brus, or de Breux, came over with the conqueror and was indeed rewarded with the manor of Danby, in Cleveland, among others. His GRANDSON, also Robert, the third son in that generation was given the fief of Annandale. HIS son married a daughter of William the Lyon, and HIS son, ie the fifth Robert, who died in 1245 (obviously not a son of the one who came over with William in 1066 or thereabouts) was the one who married into the Scottish royal house, his wife being Isabel, daughter of Henry of Scotland. This fifth Robert had a son, Robert, and he in turn had a son, Robert, who married Marjory, Countess of Carrick, they being the parents of King Robert the Bruce, 1274-1329. The arms of the Scottish Bruces and the Yorkshire Bruces are the same except for the colours. The Scottish ones are red on gold and the Yorkshire ones blue on silver. Rowland Bruce, born Dewsbury, Yorkshire, 1939. ----- Original Message ----- From: Bruce Bedford <bedfordp@winshop.com.au> To: <BRUCE-L@rootsweb.com> Sent: Sunday, February 25, 2001 9:00 PM Subject: The BRUCE'S of England > As there has been a lot of movement on the "BRUCE" lineage and some seem to think that there line comes from Scotland, may be they should look at the Cleveland / Yorkshire area as this is where Robert de Brus settled when he came to England from Normanby with William the Conqueror around 1066 later the name was changed by deed of parliament to Bruce, it was one of his sons that went to Scotland and married the daughter of their King. There are other theories to on when the name firstly came to England but this is the most popular one. However there are still Bruces living in Yorkshire Durham and Cleveland. One of the best authorities on the Bruce name is Jean Smallwood as she has done many years of research on the name, the last I heard she was writing a book on the research she has done on the Bruce name. > > Bruce Bedford > > > ==== BRUCE Mailing List ==== > >

In a message dated 2/26/01 17:33:16, JGARLOW@aol.com writes: << I am descended from his son, James (and Margaret McMahon) > James (and Mary Polly Runyan) >> Do you have the names of the descendants of James and Margaret McMahon and James and Mary Polly Runyan? Did any of them go to South Carolina? Our "first" James Bruce was born about 1735, and died in 1819, South Carolina. Some researchers guess he was born in Scotland, I've also heard Virginia, and one sources says that the Carolina Bruces came from Ireland in 1716. Still researching the Oglethorpe's Regiment James Bruce to see if he fits in. All comments/suggestions are welcomed. Thanks! Judy

In a message dated 2/26/01 7:50:57, brucerp@senet.com.au writes: << The arms of the Scottish Bruces and the Yorkshire Bruces are the same except for the colours. The Scottish ones are red on gold and the Yorkshire ones blue on silver. >> What about the Bruce tartan? I've seen it pictured as red background with mostly green plaid, with thin lines of white and yellow, but another source noted that the Bruce tartan was yellow, black and red (I thought that one was McLeod). And does anyone know if the Irish Bruces were from either of these lines? Thanks Judy

Helo List, this note may be of help John Shearer From: "John K Shearer" <jk_shearer@email.msn.com> To: <JeanSm@aol.com>, <BRUCE-L@rootsweb.com> Subject: Re: Robert The Bruce Date: Sun, 19 Sep 1999 14:23:04 +0100 Good Morning Jean, This note updates, integrates and comments on the last two. I am not an expert. I began researching BRUCE a few months ago because my grandson appears to be a descendant of that family, courtesy of his other grandparents. The work done to date has been preliminary. I went to the library of the Society of Genealogists in London an found a family tree of the Earls of Elgin which seemed to be well researched and I extracted the relevant information. I then compared this with the most official looking tomes in the Mitchell Library in Glasgow and I found complete agreement where they covered the same ground. The most authoritative looking text is"The Dictionary of National Biography of Scotland - Oxford University Press, 1917." My primary search was for the link to my grandsons tree and this came with a Sir Robert Bruce who was the son of King Robert's uncle but is in fact believed to have been the Robert's illegitimate son. Since the illegitimate sons of kings were very respectable 700 years ago I need to research this story but it does not affect the lineage. Moving back through time, King Robert's father Robert Bruce, Lord Annandale married The Countess of Carrick and their son Robert became Earl of Carrick, and King of Scotland. This gentleman was a crusader who lived abroad and was a contemporary of Edward I of England. I wonder if he was a Templar? There are rumours that the Templars helped his son become King of Scotland. King Robert's grandfather Robert Bruce, Lord Annandale (1210-1295) was a competitor for the Scottish throne when Alexander III was killed. He married Isobel de Clare, daughter of Gilbert Earl of Gloucester. I have two other sons, Barnard Bruce and Sir John Bruce the uncle we have already discussed. He lived through a period of weak or disinterested English kings and some reasonably good Scottish kings. King Robert's great grandfather Robert Bruce, Lord Annandale, married a daughter of the Earl of Huntingdon, the grandson of a Scottish king. Her name may have been Isobel, I will check my notes. I found no record of a Lady Beckwith Bruce or a zame Beckwith Bruce but I was not looking for daughters. King Robert's gg grandfather was William Bruce, Lord of Annandale, who was probably named for his grandsire William the Lion, King of Scotland. He may have married a Christina I will check my notes. King Robert's ggg grandfather was Robert de Bruce, Lord of Annandale, who married Isobel the daughter of William the Lion. King Robert's gggg grandfather was a younger son, Robert de Brus (? - 1196) who married the heiress (Euphemia??) of the Lord of Annandale, and brought the Bruce name to Scotland.. His elder brother was Adam de Brus (? - .1172) who inherited the Barony of Skelton in Yorkshire. According to another internet correspondent Adam married Ivetta, daughter of William de Arches, Widow of R. de Flamville (Their descendants are discussed in a postscript to this email. A Bruce is believed to have come to Scotland with David I when he returned from the Anglo-Norman Court of Henry I. This could have been the Robert above but he must have lived to a very great age if he died in 1192. I wonder if his father , discussed bellow came, and was partly rewarded by an eligible marriage for his younger son. King Robert's ggggg grandfather was Robert de Brus (? - 1141). I have seen references to his marrying a daughter of Pagnel (Paynell) on the Internet but not elsewhere as yet. This reference was as follows: "Robert de Brus came into England with the Conqueror and had by conquest the Lordships of Skelton, Marske, Uplyum, Brotton, Danby, Leventon, Yarm and in 1141 he married Agnes, the daughter of Fulke Paynell and gained the manors of Carleton and Balme. The author of this note has someone born before 1046 marrying in 1141 so he has missed out one or two generations and his claim that the same hero took these lands by conquest is also suspect. William did operate a scorched earth policy in Yorkshire and substantially culled the descendants of his Viking cousins threfore, he probably gave the manors to de Brus or arranged for him to marry an available heiress. All heiresses were in the kings gift. I know Yarm it is a beautiful village a short drive from Stockton and Darlington. Before this matters are a little vague. I am not clear on Adam (?), Robert's gggggg grandfather, who married a Ramsay. Again I think someone mentioned this on the internet but could not provide a source. You said "Some sources skip Adam Bruce (3rd. gen.)who married Emma Ramsay ". Latter Day Saints ancestral files accept individual interpretations which do not have to be verified. However, if the dates above are correct we do need someone in this space and it makes sense that he had a grandson called Adam (naming tradition). Robert de Brus (1030 - 1094), Robert's ggggggg grandfather, landed with William the Conqueror in 1066. He may have married a St. Clair, I will check my notes. Emma de Bretagne is also a possibility but this makes the same marriage in a previous generation unlikely. If we move to Robert's gggggggg grandfather things become a little fuzzy and contentious Robert de Brusse who married ? de Brittnay is a possibility but needs checking. Regards John Shearer Postscript. The Lords of Skelton >>Adam de Brus, the second (ob.1180)= ????? >> >>Peter de Brus, the first of that name. = Agnes, Daughter of Stephen, >>Earl of Albemarle, widow of W de Romara, Earl of Lincoln. >>Isabella de Brus = Sir Henry de Percy, from whom descended the Percies, >>Earls of Northumberland. >> >>Peter de Brus, the Second (ob.1240) = Helewife, Daughter of Gilbert de >>Lancaster Baron of Kendal. >> >>Peter de Brus, the Third = Hillaria, Daughter of Lord Malo-lacu, or >>Mauley >> >>Peter de Brus, the Fourth died unmarried 1271, leaving his sisters his >>Heirs >>(1) Agnes = Walter de Fauconberge, had Skelton, Marske, & c. >>(2) Lucy = Marmaduke de Thweng, had Danby, Brotton and Yarm >>(3) Margaret = Robert de Roffe Lord of Werke, had Kendal, &c. >>(4) Ladrina = Sir John de Bella-aqua or Bellew, had Carleton in >>Balme,&c. >> >>This was the last of this line of Brus (Bruce) as it had died out with >>Peter de Brus in the year 1271 and as his sisters had married into >>different lines >> >> -----Original Message----- From: JeanSm@aol.com <JeanSm@aol.com> To: BRUCE-L@rootsweb.com <BRUCE-L@rootsweb.com> Date: 18 September 1999 19:21 Subject: Robert The Bruce >I am writing a book and one Chapter will be on BRUCE. I copy below the >sources I think are best. The biggest differences in these sources has to do >with William Bruce who m. Christina. 3 sources have him the "brother" of >Robert who m. Isobel (daug. of Wm. The Lion) and the Magna Carta Book has him >the "son" of that Robert. Please reply with your judgement on this complete >chart. > >Robert Bruce (magna Carta Book) and Robert Bruce by Scott, and Funk & Wagnall >Encyclopedia (1996) were the combination of sources used for comparison of >early generations in my book. A number below denotes descending generations. > Ten generations are noted under the title THIS BOOK (by Jean Smallwood). >Read columns downward. > > > >THIS BOOK Robert Bruce Robert Bruce >Encylopedia > (Magna Carta Book) by Scott > >1 Robert de Brusse 1 Robert de Brusse 1 grandfather > m. de Brittnay m. de Brittnay > HAD SON >2 Robert I 2 Robert m. St. Clair 2 Son unnamed 1 >Robert > d.1094-to England to Eng.with > d.1094 to Eng >Wm. the Conqueror Wm. the Conqueror >Wm/Conquer > HAD SON >3 Adam m. Ramsay 3 Adam m.Ramsay 3 Adam > HAD SON >4 Robert II-d. 1141 4 Robert -d. 1141 m. 4 Robert d. 1141 2 >Robert II > m. Pagnel (Paynell) Pagnel(Paynell) > HAD SONS >5 Adam Bruce d.1172 5 Adam Bruce > &Robert III 5 Robert m. Euphemia &Robert-d. 1196 3 >Robert III > d. 1196 > Robert HAD SONS HAD SONS >HAD SONS >6 Robert IV m. Isobel 6 Robert m. Isobel 6 Robert Bruce >4Robert IV > d/o Wm. The Lion > AND AND > AND > William Bruce 7William William Bruce > William Bruce > m. Christina-had daug. m.Christiana >7 Lady Dame Bruce > AND > Robert V-d. 1245 8Robert d 1245 7Robert-d. 1245 5 >Robert V > m.Isobel m. Isobel > HAD SON >8 Robert VI 9 Robert 1210-1295 8 Robert d. >1295 6Robert VI > "Competitor" m.De Clare m. De Clare > HAD SON >9 Robert VII b.1243 10 Robert 9 Robert > 7Robert VII > m. Carrick m. Carrick m. Carrick > HAD SON >10 King Robert 11 King Robert 10King Robert > 8King Robert > of Scotland > >Note-some sources (Familytreemaker-WFT-internet) say Robert Bruce (b.1030) m. >Emma de Bretagne > not St.Clair (2nd.gen.above)and had son Robert, d. 1141 (4th gen. above). >Many of these list Lady Bruce. >Some sources skip Adam Bruce (3rd. gen.)who m. Emma Ramsay,as does the >Encyclopedia above. >Latter Day Saints files list Robert m. Brittnay (1st gen) and record that he >had son Adam. who m. Ramsay. > >For Robert Bruce(Signers of Magna Carta,1215)-see internet Clan Bruce >www.tartans.com/clans/bruce.html >See Source Chart for Lady Dame Beckwith Bruce. In the 3 sources above, only >selected children are listed. >Some early genealogies list only sons. Daughters were not always listed. >Many later genealogies show Lady Dame Beckwith Bruce, the connection for this >book. >Thank you, Jean Smallwood (jeansm@aol.com) > > >==== BRUCE Mailing List ==== > Have you considered joining the Rootsweb Genealogical Data > Cooperative? > http://www.rootsweb.com/ > > > ==== BRUCE Mailing List ==== The Internet Mailing List for BRUCE researchers To unsubscribe send an e-mail to bruce-l-request@rootsweb.com with 'UNSUBSCRIBE' as the only text in the message If you get the digest version send an e-mail to bruce-d-request@rootsweb.com with 'UNSUBSCRIBE' as the only text in the message.

I, too, am descended from John Bruce who married Sarah Parrell in Leochel Cushney in Scotland on 1709.  He was born on 11/7/1690 in Portsoy, in the Fordyce Parish in Scotland. and Died in Brucetown in Fredrick Co VA. on 9/23/1748.  I am descended from his son, James (and Margaret McMahon) > James (and Mary Polly Runyan) > George (and Frances Kepley) > George (and Sarah Reynolds) > Samuel (and Leonora Walker) > Samuel (and Ruth Nicholson) > Samuel (my dad).....   Joelle Garlow

I posted a little about the William Bruce I am looking for. I will give you a little more info and maybe I will get a hit. William Bruce, Sr. Married Sarah Hopkins - 1830's William Bruce, Jr. (my great gfather) Born 9/25/1836, Christened at Cambridge, England Died, Hunter, Kansas 4/7/1915. Married Elizabeth. Children: Frances Howard (my grandfather who married Margratha Wagner and had 7 children, including my father, Hugh V. Bruce), Charlie, Richard and Fred. The family story is that Elizabeth left him and took Richard and Fred with her back East. He kept Frank and Charlie. Second, he married Emily Page (or Pope) Children: Maud, Laura Grace, Florence, Etta and Francis Emily. I need help on this one. Linda Bruce

I don't know if it is allowed to mention a site here. I was given a site for crests, mottos, etc. from a member of the Scot-Royal list. If anyone wants it, just ask, or tell me if it is okay to post it here. Linda Bruce

I too am a descendant of John Bruce, discussed in a few other earlier e-mails. I have barely found out about this and can only quote that I am the gggggranddaughter of David Cox and Margaret Bruce. Margaret was the daughter of James Bruce and Margaret McMahon. James Bruce was the son of the John Bruce being mentioned in earlier e-mails. I have been corresponding with Bill McMahon on the Cox side of things and have barely looked at any Bruce information, but I thought I would chime in. Virginia Wilson Thomas

Dear Rowland, >> The arms of the Scottish Bruces and the Yorkshire Bruces are the same except for the colours. The Scottish ones are red on gold and the Yorkshire ones blue on silver.<< I am descended from Thomas 1/Bruce of Sudbury, Marlborough, and Southborough, Massachusetts, U.S.A., and your message caught my eye, as no-one has been able to determine Thomas' origins, and many have tried. There is great speculation that he was of English, rather than Scottish origin. I have a sample of the Bruce tartan material, and would love to claim it for my family! However, as things are, I cannot. If the arms of the two Bruce lines are nearly the same, I wonder if the tartan is exclusively the property of the Scottish line. Without confirmation of "my" Thomas' ancestry, of course, I still could not make a claim on the tartan or the arms for Thomas. Is there any way I could obtain a picture of these arms, perhaps on line? I have been given to understand that British coats-of-arms are given to an individual, and cannot be claimed by the descendants. Is this so? Or are they passed on down through the male line of descendants? Thank you for your posting. When I am able, I'll make another search of the LDS IGI to see if there were any "Thomas Bruces" from the Yorkshire area. There is a Cleveland, in the state of Ohio here, by the way! Claudia Cridland

Did anyone get an answer on the question about John Bruce's will?? "and the desertation of William McMahon and Hugh Parrell". What is he referring to? Does anyone have the answer to it? Vickie

> > > > My husband's great uncle ARTHUR "ART" AUGUSTUS BRUCE born in 1885 > in > > > Custer > > > County, Neb and he moved to Mt Grove,MO in Howell County in 1914, > with > > > his > > > parents THOMAS GILBERT & CORDELIA AMANDA MORSE-BRUCE. Thomas & > > Cordelia > > > & > > > children went back to Long Pine, Neb in 1921. > > > ART married a neighbor girl NELLIE BRICKY and they remained in the > Mt > > > Grove, > > > MO area and raised their family. > > > Their children: > > > 1. ELSIE BRUCE > > > 2. PRESTON BRUCE > > > 3. ARTHUR BRUCE > > > 4. IRENE BRUCE > > > 5. PAUL CALVIN BRUCE > > > Art Bruce had one or two boys that were Morticians in the Mt. Grove, > > MO > > > area, could have been in the 1950's up, and their names were ARTHUR > > and > > > PAUL > > > BRUCE. > > > Art Bruce's brother TOM BRUCE also married SARAH DUKE in the Mt > Grove, > > > MO > > > area and lived there from 1928 on. > > > If anyone has any info on any of the above people it would be > greatly > > > appreciated. > > > You can contact me at: ALL@todays-tech.com > > > Thank You, Lucille > > > > > >

My brick wall is George Bruce who married Elizabeth Quinn prior to 1742 presumably in King & Queen Co VA. Also looking for data on parents of John Bruce d 1752 Albemarle Co VA and Margaret Frazier. Also looking for data on John Bruce who was in Mecklenberg Co VA in 1772.  This John is son of the above mentioned John and later was found in Madison Co KY (Lincoln Co KY). TIA Bea Hudson Hampton, VA